On 1/4/2024 5:53 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:
>
>> To be fair, the laptop being replaced was itself a replacement from an
>> old XP system. They kept complaining about various things and
>> problems they were having. It took some time to explain that their
>> XP system was unable to do lots of things and run software in the
>> current environment. It was like pulling teeth to get them on a newer
>> version. The laptop was originally Win7 and they used that for
>> years. It was probably around two years ago I convinced them to
>> upgrade to win 10. Same process of explaining why I thought the
>> change would be good for them and getting that blank stare in return.
>> It took me quite some time myself to upgrade to win 10. I found
>> most of the complaints without merit, and figured they could handle
>> the switch.
>
> When you saturate the market, you can invigorate sales only by adding
> more features. I remember when the VCR sales stalled, because everyone
> that wanted one already had one. They didn't break down often enough to
> cover business costs to run a manufacturing plant for them. So, they
> started adding more features: scheduled recording, slo-mo and
> frame-by-frame viewing, dual-tape or tape+disc machines, front load
> instead of top load, and so on. Sales were based on adding gimmicks
> beyond the basic features. Marketing tries to convince consumers they
> just must have the added non-essentials they claim are essential.
>
> But do you, er, does the MIL really need more than the laptop? See my
> reply to Frank on what you could do to speed up the laptop, and improve
> ergonomics with a better monitor, keyboard, and mouse. Is the old
> laptop really the problem, or that it never got upgrades and tweaks to
> improve responsiveness, and better user experience with the I/O devices?

I appreciate the thought, but I am past trying to work on that laptop.
As long as she wants a desktop, in the end it will be much easier to
maintain. With what appears to be hardware related issues on her
current laptop starting to appear, even if they are from associated
software issues, I'm just gonna spend the money and get her something
newer. By the time I bought a battery, perhaps a motherboard, or even
spent the time trying to figure out why it takes so long to boot and the
wi-fi keeps dropping, I'd be better off just upgrading and be done with
it.

I for the most part agree that she'll be fine with win10 for years, even
after OS support ends. She just needs something she can use that is
reliable, probably runs most of the day, and I am familiar with. Win 10
on a desktop fits that bill. I am looking at some info on what is
required and then looking at those systems. Probably buy in the next
couple days if I get rid of this bug that's been slowing me down.

--
Stand With Israel!
NOTE: If you use Google Groups I don't see you,
unless you're whitelisted and that's doubtful.

VanguardLH wrote on 1/4/24 11:26 AM:
>
> Can the OP freely move from Win11 to Win10 should his MIL complain she
> didn't get the Win10 she wanted? Moving forward might be free. Does
> Microsoft still offer the downgrade option for free?

'Downgrade' in Microsoft/OEM lanugage is a term that solely applied to
OEM's devices with a pre-installed o/s(current) and the contractual right
to supply/provide the earlier o/s to the customer purchasing the device
with the current installed o/s.
Windows 8.1 was the last operating system that provided 'downgrade' rights.

I suspect your use of the term means can a device that is upgraded from
Win10 to Win11 be returned to Win11.
- Yes and multiple routes.
1. Restore and earlier Win10 saved image(e.g. Macrium or other 3rd party
imaging tool)
2. Clean install Win10 using the latest(or earlier created) created
media. Note: 23H2 and 22H2 are the current supported o/s. One can not
revert to Win10 from Win11 and retain programs installed on the device.
3. If the device is as-shipped with Win10(OEM) then resetting the device
to factory Wi10 condition using the OEM provided utilities(on the device,
provided with the device, and/or available from the OEM)

#1 is the best choice since it would retain installed software up to the
point in time the Win10 image was created.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:

> 1. Restore and earlier Win10 saved image(e.g. Macrium or other 3rd party
> imaging tool)

I like that idea best for the OP.
- Buy a Win10 refurb that can run Win11 (e.g., make sure TPM2 or BIOS
Intel PTT are available).
- Capture the license string (several software tools) rather than rely
on a sticker on the case, but keep both if different.
- Save a full image backup of Win10 setup.
- Upgrade to Win11, apply all Windows updates, and driver updates.
- Save a full backup image of Win11 setup.
- Tweak Win11 to make more Win10-like; e.g., move Start menu to left of
Taskbar, use Start11 with Win10 theme w/Pinned panel that looks like
Tiles panel of Win10 Start menu; http://tinyurl.com/8jxara2z).
- See if the MIL will accept the tweaked Win11 setup.
- If not, restore to Win10 image.

However, unsure sticks wants to go through all that. Might try it
myself, though.

On 1/5/2024 2:11 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 1. Restore and earlier Win10 saved image(e.g. Macrium or other 3rd party
>> imaging tool)
>
> I like that idea best for the OP.
> - Buy a Win10 refurb that can run Win11 (e.g., make sure TPM2 or BIOS
> Intel PTT are available).
> - Capture the license string (several software tools) rather than rely
> on a sticker on the case, but keep both if different.
> - Save a full image backup of Win10 setup.
> - Upgrade to Win11, apply all Windows updates, and driver updates.
> - Save a full backup image of Win11 setup.
> - Tweak Win11 to make more Win10-like; e.g., move Start menu to left of
> Taskbar, use Start11 with Win10 theme w/Pinned panel that looks like
> Tiles panel of Win10 Start menu; http://tinyurl.com/8jxara2z).
> - See if the MIL will accept the tweaked Win11 setup.
> - If not, restore to Win10 image.
>
> However, unsure sticks wants to go through all that. Might try it
> myself, though.

I do like it, actually. I've been looking at systems that can run 11,
but have 10 installed. It is a little work finding out if they qualify,
but doable.
The research I've done on 11 requirements, particularly TPM2, have
raised a question or two. It seems most things produced after 2016
would have it, though might not be setup in the bios. That narrows down
the list of possible systems. My laptop, for example, has a drive that
has 11 loaded, but I have not yet checked to see if it actually does get
updates to the operating system. One of the things I read was that the
registry tweak you can do to trick it into thinking it has TPM2 can
often lead to a loaded Windows 11, that fails to update. I shall have
to see about that.

--
Stand With Israel!
NOTE: If you use Google Groups I don't see you,
unless you're whitelisted and that's doubtful.

sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:

> On 1/5/2024 2:11 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
>> winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 1. Restore and earlier Win10 saved image(e.g. Macrium or other 3rd party
>>> imaging tool)
>>
>> I like that idea best for the OP.
>> - Buy a Win10 refurb that can run Win11 (e.g., make sure TPM2 or BIOS
>> Intel PTT are available).
>> - Capture the license string (several software tools) rather than rely
>> on a sticker on the case, but keep both if different.
>> - Save a full image backup of Win10 setup.
>> - Upgrade to Win11, apply all Windows updates, and driver updates.
>> - Save a full backup image of Win11 setup.
>> - Tweak Win11 to make more Win10-like; e.g., move Start menu to left of
>> Taskbar, use Start11 with Win10 theme w/Pinned panel that looks like
>> Tiles panel of Win10 Start menu; http://tinyurl.com/8jxara2z).
>> - See if the MIL will accept the tweaked Win11 setup.
>> - If not, restore to Win10 image.
>>
>> However, unsure sticks wants to go through all that. Might try it
>> myself, though.
>
> I do like it, actually. I've been looking at systems that can run 11,
> but have 10 installed. It is a little work finding out if they qualify,
> but doable.
> The research I've done on 11 requirements, particularly TPM2, have
> raised a question or two. It seems most things produced after 2016
> would have it, though might not be setup in the bios. That narrows down
> the list of possible systems. My laptop, for example, has a drive that
> has 11 loaded, but I have not yet checked to see if it actually does get
> updates to the operating system. One of the things I read was that the
> registry tweak you can do to trick it into thinking it has TPM2 can
> often lead to a loaded Windows 11, that fails to update. I shall have
> to see about that.

I don't know how many TPM-capable mobos (actually TPM2 for Win11)
actually use a TPM module (in a mobo slot), or rely on the Intel PTT
(Platform Trust Technology) code in the BIOS firmware. I can't see
issuing firmware calls to a TPM module would be faster than issuing the
same calls to the BIOS firmware. Maybe there is some benchmark
available to see if TPM code is faster than BIOS Intel PTT code. I know
some folks will state that software (firmware code) in the BIOS won't be
as fast as calls to hardware (TPM module), except it is still software
(firmware) instead the TPM module. Since it is Intel PTT code in the
BIOS, presumably that means you need an Intel chipset. AMD added it,
but calls it fTPM (firmware TPM). TPM here, or TPM there, what's the
diff?

My mobo has a slot for a TPM module, but it is vacant. Its BIOS also
has the Intel PTT code; however, I disable it in the BIOS. Not having
TPM capability eliminates getting notifications of a Win11 upgrade in my
Win10 setup. Easy way to shut off Win11 upgrade lures by WU.

Because there is no TPM module in the mobo slot, and I configured my
BIOT to disable Intel PTT, running tpm.msc (TPM Management Console)
shows "Compatible TPM cannot found". That's expect, but the tool will
let you know if you have a TPM module, or PTT in BIOS firmware enabled
(and an Intel CPU 4th+ gen), or fTPM in BIOS for an AMD CPU. Another
way to check is to run in a command shell with admin privs:

wmic /namespace:\\root\cimv2\security\microsofttpm path win32_tpm get * /format:textvaluelist.xsl

You can check the specs of a refurb, but that doesn't what you get will
have a TPM module or BIOS firmware to do TPM calls in the refurb.

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/36454-verify-trusted-platform-module-tpm-chip-windows-pc.html

I can't say if refurbs, or even new pre-builts, have Secure Boot enabled
in the BIOS/UEFI. I get the mobo myself to put into a build, and I do
*not* enable Secure Boot. The assumption is Secure Boot will not
interfere with programs, but I've ran into a situation where it does
(using a video capture too, jaksta Media Recorder, that requires me to
switch to a lesser method of video stream capture if Secure Boot is
enabled).

https://help.jaksta.com/support/solutions/articles/24000084862--this-computer-has-an-uefi-bios-with-secureboot-enabled-message
https://help.jaksta.com/support/solutions/articles/6000098511/thumbs_up
https://jaksta.com/support/windows/kb/guide/user-guide-jaksta-media-recorder-for-windows-v6-24000084846
Audio recording method:
Application: In the Application recording method, audio is directly
pulled out of running applications. The applications from which
JMR6 can grab audio are set via the Application configuration
Apps button. Windows 8 users will need to have Secure Boot
disabled in their UEFI BIOS for this recording method to work.
Device: When Device is selected, you will be able to choose a
hardware device connected to your computer, such as Line In, from
which to record audio.
Stereo Mix (What you hear): When Stereo Mix is chosen, all audio
from your computer will be recorded. A Buffer value will be
presented, and larger buffer values will reduce CPU load during
recording.

I wanted the Application recording method which meant Secure Boot had to
be disabled. Maybe it was how I guessed at disabling Secure Boot (the
mobo came with it disabled, I enabled it, hit the above errors, and
tried to disable it), or maybe Asrock's BIOS code was flawed. In any
case, enabling Secure Boot, and later disabling it, left me with an
unusable mobo that had to get replaced. Took a month working with
Asrock 3rd-tier tech support troubleshooting the problem, arranging an
exchange to get a new mobo, and restarting the hardware setup.

If Secure Boot comes enabled on a refurb or pre-built, leave it that
way. Typically when you acquire a mobo as a component, Secure Boot
disabled. In pre-builts, quite often if is enabled (might be the
default setup for pre-builts).

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/oem-secure-boot

So, besides TPM (as hardware module in mobo slot, or Intel PTT or AMD
fTPM code in BIOS), you need to check if Secure Boot comes enabled in
the UEFI of the pre-built you buy.

As I recall from reading posts from others, Secure Boot must be disabled
if you want to multi-boot to different operating systems, like between
Windows and Linux. Or, perhaps Linux distros have caught up to embrace
Secure Boot, a UEFI feature, too.

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Secure_Boot
https://wiki.debian.org/SecureBoot

Another "feature" of UEFI (with Microsoft's involvement) is a program
can be specified in the UEFI to run on Windows startup. Despite
regulating any startup programs, or scanning for malware, there could
sit a call to a program in the UEFI. It could, for example, be used for
starting execution of tracking software (how the computer is used), or
for software inventorying on workstations. I've only seen it used by
companies that wanted to add and start: usage tracking, location,
anti-theft, or inventorying to their workstations. However, it could
also be used by malware, and I don't know if any AVs check for a program
load specified in the UEFI. As I recall, some mobos (Lenovo, Gigabyte,
ASUS) used this trick to run services or diagnostics on Windows startup.
The AV should catch malware for whatever the UEFI program load
specifies; that is, the .exe in UEFI usually calls some other program
that runs under Windows.

It is a "feature" only with UEFI. When Windows loads, it has a program
(C:\Windows\system32\wpbbin.exe) that runs to determine if the UEFI
specified a start program. The UEFI start program is in one of the ACPI
tables in the BIOS (I forget the ACPI table name)One trick is to rename
the loader program in Windows. This is called the UEFI Bootkit dubbed
BlackLotus.

You can Nirsoft's Firmware Tables View to see the ACPI tables in UEFI.
Looks for the "Windows Platform Binary Table" (WPBT). When I found out
about this, Nirsoft didn't show a WPBT table, but then I have many
options disabled in the BIOS. I also don't have the wpbbin.exe program
(that checks the UEFI for an .exe file to load).

Although pundits attempt to tout UEFI, Secure Boot, and other later
security measures as protecting users, there are UEFI Bootkits that
bypass all those measures, even Secure Boot, like BlackLotus.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/03/unkillable-uefi-malware-bypassing-secure-boot-enabled-by-unpatchable-windows-flaw/

Those are different beasts than the UEFI program load specified in an
ACPI table that Windows checks if it is defined, and if found will run
the UEFI-specified program. I'm noting the UEFI program load on Windows
launch because refurbs often are company workstations that were leased,
and then disposed of. Companies can employ tracking, location, or
inventorying sofware that the UEFI-specified program will start. You
won't find that method listed in, say, SysInternals' Autoruns. Windows
loads, checks the UEFI for the start program, and runs that program
under Windows. Since Secure Boot okays the load of Windows, and since
it is a program under Windows that loads the .exe in the UEFI, Secure
Boot won't catch this tactic.

VanguardLH wrote on 1/6/24 2:16 AM:
> sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:
>
>> On 1/5/2024 2:11 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
>>> winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 1. Restore and earlier Win10 saved image(e.g. Macrium or other 3rd party
>>>> imaging tool)
>>>
>>> I like that idea best for the OP.
>>> - Buy a Win10 refurb that can run Win11 (e.g., make sure TPM2 or BIOS
>>> Intel PTT are available).
>>> - Capture the license string (several software tools) rather than rely
>>> on a sticker on the case, but keep both if different.
>>> - Save a full image backup of Win10 setup.
>>> - Upgrade to Win11, apply all Windows updates, and driver updates.
>>> - Save a full backup image of Win11 setup.
>>> - Tweak Win11 to make more Win10-like; e.g., move Start menu to left of
>>> Taskbar, use Start11 with Win10 theme w/Pinned panel that looks like
>>> Tiles panel of Win10 Start menu; http://tinyurl.com/8jxara2z).
>>> - See if the MIL will accept the tweaked Win11 setup.
>>> - If not, restore to Win10 image.
>>>
>>> However, unsure sticks wants to go through all that. Might try it
>>> myself, though.
>>
>> I do like it, actually. I've been looking at systems that can run 11,
>> but have 10 installed. It is a little work finding out if they qualify,
>> but doable.
>> The research I've done on 11 requirements, particularly TPM2, have
>> raised a question or two. It seems most things produced after 2016
>> would have it, though might not be setup in the bios. That narrows down
>> the list of possible systems. My laptop, for example, has a drive that
>> has 11 loaded, but I have not yet checked to see if it actually does get
>> updates to the operating system. One of the things I read was that the
>> registry tweak you can do to trick it into thinking it has TPM2 can
>> often lead to a loaded Windows 11, that fails to update. I shall have
>> to see about that.
>
>
> You can check the specs of a refurb, but that doesn't what you get will
> have a TPM module or BIOS firmware to do TPM calls in the refurb.
>
> https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/36454-verify-trusted-platform-module-tpm-chip-windows-pc.html
>

TPM
New OEM built machines since July 2016 for Win10 all required
implementation and enabling of TPM 2.0(default requirement)
cf.
<https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/oem-tpm>
"Since July 28, 2016, all new device models, lines or series (or if you
are updating the hardware configuration of a existing model, line or
series with a major update, such as CPU, graphic cards) must implement
and enable by default TPM 2.0 . The requirement to enable TPM 2.0 only
applies to the manufacturing of new devices."

All BYO Win10 devices(not new machines built by an OEM) are not
constrained by the above requirement.
- i.e. Some mobos may not have TPM modules or TPM chip slots. In many
cases, since the requirement started in July 2016 and applied at that
time to Win10 devices(Win11 was yet to be released) many mobo
manufacturers complied with the requirement and provided TPM 2.0 or
on-board TPM slots. UEFI/BIOS settings changes by the end-user may be
required to enable the chip to take advantage of its design intent
hardware based security functionality.

A reburb Win10 device upgraded to Win11 can go revert to Win10(#1 noted
earlier), just as well as go back to Win11(same method, saved image of
Win11 via Macrium or other 3rd party imaging tools)
- it might be(would be is more accurate) a good idea to use an
Microsoft Account when prompted during the Win11 upgrade(not necessary,
but suggested). Both Win10 and Win11 when activated are digitally
licensed via use of a Microsoft Account or a Local Account. The MSFT
account route provides one feature that a Local Account activation does
not - automatic reactivation via the 'Activation Troubleshooter' if major
hardware is changed(CPU, Mobo).
i.e. If a refurbished device later needs a new CPU or Mobo, a sole
Local Account may require some extra hoops to jump through to activate
Win10/11 post hardware changes(Call MSFT and explain). Mobo failures are
rare, but this is being mentioned to ensure full understanding if a
mobo/cpu replacement becomes necessary. Personally, I've only had one
single mobo failure in the last 35 yrs and none since Windows 95
release...thus that MSA might come in handy for those needing(it)!
cf.
<https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/reactivating-windows-after-a-hardware-change-2c0e962a-f04c-145b-6ead-fb3fc72b6665>
More detail can be found in the linked article. Read the appropriate
sections in the 'Reactivate Windows 11 after a hardware change'
specifically the 'Activation troubleshooter' content.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

On 1/1/2024 9:28 PM, sticks wrote:
> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished
> systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable.  I have finally
> talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the laptop she
> has, and would appreciate any recommendations for where to look for
> something.
>
> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
> especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost 80 years
> old.  She just doesn't need that.
>
> Any reputable sites would be welcomed.
>
> TIA
>
>

If it hasn't been mentioned, give a look here:
https://discountelectronics.com/locations/

Their mail order is prompt, and the people are helpful. One year guarantee.

On 1/8/2024 7:07 AM, Karen wrote:
> On 1/1/2024 9:28 PM, sticks wrote:
>> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished
>> systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable.  I have
>> finally talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the
>> laptop she has, and would appreciate any recommendations for where to
>> look for something.
>>
>> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
>> especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost 80
>> years old.  She just doesn't need that.
>>
>> Any reputable sites would be welcomed.
>>
>> TIA
>>
>>
>
> If it hasn't been mentioned, give a look here:
> https://discountelectronics.com/locations/
>
> Their mail order is prompt, and the people are helpful. One year guarantee.

"Discount Electronics sells more used and refurbished computers than any
other company. We have thousands of Dell, HP and Lenovo desktops, both
used and refurbished. All of our desktop computer include a one-year
warranty direct from Discount Electronics. So, no matter whether you
call them refurbished or used, desktops, computers, towers or PCs, we
have you covered. No charge for shipping"

al <al@nospam.net> wrote:

> On 1/8/2024 7:07 AM, Karen wrote:
>> On 1/1/2024 9:28 PM, sticks wrote:
>>> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished
>>> systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable.  I have
>>> finally talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the
>>> laptop she has, and would appreciate any recommendations for where to
>>> look for something.
>>>
>>> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
>>> especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost 80
>>> years old.  She just doesn't need that.
>>>
>>> Any reputable sites would be welcomed.
>>>
>>> TIA
>>>
>>>
>>
>> If it hasn't been mentioned, give a look here:
>> https://discountelectronics.com/locations/
>>
>> Their mail order is prompt, and the people are helpful. One year guarantee.
>
> "Discount Electronics sells more used and refurbished computers than any
> other company. We have thousands of Dell, HP and Lenovo desktops, both
> used and refurbished. All of our desktop computer include a one-year
> warranty direct from Discount Electronics. So, no matter whether you
> call them refurbished or used, desktops, computers, towers or PCs, we
> have you covered. No charge for shipping"

I used Google Maps and its street view to see what was at their store
locations.

4005 W Parmer Ln Suit D
Austin, TX 78757
Says "For lease". Street view Mar 2022.

1007 South Heatherwilde Blvd.
Suite 500
Pflugerville, TX 78660
That one shows a store in Google Maps street view Jan 2022.

1001 South IH-35
Round Rock, TX 78664
Can see a store sign atop a pole in Google Maps street view Mar 2022.

Went to https://www.bbb.org/us/tx to search on them. Could find them
for Austin, TX. The Pflugerville and Round Rock locations have an A+
rating.

Could the be Austin location is very new (moved in after Mar 2022), or
they closed (before Mar 2022). I didn't bother to call the Austin
location to see if someone answered.

Just remember if you get the product shipped, and have to use the
warranty, the computer is unavailable from the time you ship, when they
decide to fix or replace, and shipped back to you. With a local store,
it's the driving time to the store, but you might want to check if they
replace or always first try to repair, and how long repairs take.

Discount Electronics says all warranty work is performed in-house, so
they have something akin to Best Buy's Geek Squad. Read their warranty
page (https://discountelectronics.com/warranty-returns-shipping/). Not
everything you buy there has a 1-year warranty. Some are only 90 days.
They pay for return shipping within 14 days of the invoice date (so that
will be before whenever the shipped package arrives to you, and the time
for you to setup the computer and test it). Outside the 14 days, you
pay the return shipping costs.

I did not see where they say they pay shipping to you when you buy, or
after a warranty when they send the repaired/replacement product.

On 1/8/2024 6:07 AM, Karen wrote:
> On 1/1/2024 9:28 PM, sticks wrote:
>> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished
>> systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable.  I have
>> finally talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the
>> laptop she has, and would appreciate any recommendations for where to
>> look for something.
>>
>> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
>> especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost 80
>> years old.  She just doesn't need that.
>>
>> Any reputable sites would be welcomed.
>>
>> TIA
>>
>>
>
> If it hasn't been mentioned, give a look here:
> https://discountelectronics.com/locations/
>
> Their mail order is prompt, and the people are helpful. One year guarantee.

Thanks. I did purchase over the weekend, but I looked at the site to
see how their prices were. They seem to be nearing twice as expensive
as some of the other places I was looking at on refurbs. Perhaps if you
are close and can physically go to the store you could bicker on price a
bit, but otherwise, they were simply too much higher than the other to
make a purchase on-line there.

--
Stand With Israel!
NOTE: If you use Google Groups I don't see you,
unless you're whitelisted and that's doubtful.

On 1/5/2024 4:25 PM, sticks wrote:

I got so much great help on this simple post I made asking for locations
to look for systems to buy, it has been a little overwhelming. But, I
learned alot in the process, and appreciate the knowledge coming from
this place. I did buy a system over the weekend, and will just use this
post to respond and explain what happened.

> I've been looking at systems that can run 11,
> but have 10 installed.  It is a little work finding out if they qualify,
> but doable.

At first TPM2 seemed to be the main sticking point. What I kinda found
out was that the CPU requirements really directed what was going to have
a Win 10 or a Win 11 operating system loaded on the refurbish. If it
had an 8th gen intel processor or later on it, they all had windows 11.
Up to Gen 6 or 7 usually had Windows 10. So I then had to follow
through on looking at Windows 11 on the laptop I had and further
investigate installs on less than optimal systems, those that had to be
tweaked.

> The research I've done on 11 requirements, particularly TPM2, have
> raised a question or two.  It seems most things produced after 2016
> would have it, though might not be setup in the bios.  That narrows down
> the list of possible systems.  My laptop, for example, has a drive that
> has 11 loaded, but I have not yet checked to see if it actually does get
> updates to the operating system.  One of the things I read was that the
> registry tweak you can do to trick it into thinking it has TPM2 can
> often lead to a loaded Windows 11, that fails to update.  I shall have
> to see about that.

So the laptop I have has only a 2nd generation cpu, a i5-2410M. I
purchased the parts for it because I needed a new board. However, it
also came with an additional Win 11 680 GB hard drive identical to the
one I have with Win 10. I spent some time looking at the 11 system
working and found some interesting things.
First, it does not appear to be a "regular" 11 update. It says it is:
Windows 11-UltraLite TeamOs Edition. I had no idea what that was.
It has Winaero installed, has none of the registry hacks in the MoSetup
folder, and does not show the windows update options in the Privacy &
Security/Windows Security settings page.
There isn't a lot of info on this TeamOS, but it appears to be a
"piracy" group that modifies and deletes some of the system stuff to
give a small footprint version of an operating system. They've
evidently done this for the other MS Windows versions too. This hard
drive only had 6.64 GB used after the operating install, Firefox,
Chrome, Winaero, and whatever else I missed. That seemed kinda small to
me. Having not yet seen a true windows 11 running, I don't really know
what all they scrapped in their build.

So, I was unable to see if it did updates on the operating system,
because of however this thing installs. There is a place to supposedly
click on updates on or off, but it doesn't appear to do anything. When
you go to the Windows Security tab in settings, it just slides over to a
blank space....nothing there. So, I fail to see how upgrading to
windows 11 using this Team OS method is of any use if it won't even do
security updates. I will probably image my win 10 system to this drive
and do a real 11 upgrade, probably with the reg hack, to see if it will
run and update. However, in the end it is probably irrelevant since
just because it is allowed now, it still doesn't answer the question of
whether or not Microsoft will allow them to update in the future.
What I did see, though, I was not a big fan of. Not that I couldn't get
it worked out all to my liking, but that the MIL would not like it and
it would be an issue.

So I decided in the end the additional cost of getting a Win 11 capable
machine ( around $100 more), buying a Win 10 license and installing
that, was just not worth it for her.

I ended up getting her a Dell OptiPlex 7040, with 6th gen i5, 32 GB of
DDR4 ram, a new 1TB NVMe M.2 SSD, a spinning 2TB HDD, AX200 Built in
WIFI 6 & Bluetooth 5.2, and a new 20" monitor with built-in speakers.
The whole cost was right at $290. I think between the cpu and the 32 GB
ram, she's gonna be very happy for now.

Thanks everyone for the help!

--
Stand With Israel!
NOTE: If you use Google Groups I don't see you,
unless you're whitelisted and that's doubtful.

sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:

> I ended up getting her a Dell OptiPlex 7040, with 6th gen i5, 32 GB of
> DDR4 ram, a new 1TB NVMe M.2 SSD, a spinning 2TB HDD, AX200 Built in
> WIFI 6 & Bluetooth 5.2, and a new 20" monitor with built-in speakers.
> The whole cost was right at $290. I think between the cpu and the 32 GB
> ram, she's gonna be very happy for now.

Where did you find that one? Included the monitor?

Oops, nevermind. Found:

http://dl.dell.com/topicspdf/optiplex-7040-desktop_owners-manual_en-us.pdf

which says it supports TPM 1.2. Windows 11 requires TPM 2.0. Windows
12 is expected to have the same requirement. So, she'll be using Win10
on that box until she gets another computer.

Hopefully she has her own powered speakers. Those in the monitor are
poor. Not even worth using as a mid-channel.

On 1/8/2024 12:36 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:
>
>> I ended up getting her a Dell OptiPlex 7040, with 6th gen i5, 32 GB of
>> DDR4 ram, a new 1TB NVMe M.2 SSD, a spinning 2TB HDD, AX200 Built in
>> WIFI 6 & Bluetooth 5.2, and a new 20" monitor with built-in speakers.
>> The whole cost was right at $290. I think between the cpu and the 32 GB
>> ram, she's gonna be very happy for now.
>
> Where did you find that one? Included the monitor?

2 separate purchases. The box a refurb, the monitor was new.

> Oops, nevermind. Found:
>
> http://dl.dell.com/topicspdf/optiplex-7040-desktop_owners-manual_en-us.pdf
>
> which says it supports TPM 1.2. Windows 11 requires TPM 2.0. Windows
> 12 is expected to have the same requirement. So, she'll be using Win10
> on that box until she gets another computer.

I'm fairly certain the reg hacks could get it by on both the TPM2 and
the CPU requirements. I'll try it out on my laptop with a 2nd gen CPU
and which I am unsure of the the TPM capabilites of yet. But like I
said, it really is irrelevant now if it does work, cause there is no
point in upgrading if Microsoft won't let you do security updates in the
future.

> Hopefully she has her own powered speakers. Those in the monitor are
> poor. Not even worth using as a mid-channel.

She's been using the laptop speakers for years, so whatever the monitor
comes with will be at least as good, if not better than what she is used
to. Plus, she's older and doesn't crank it up like I do. 8-)
I had actually forgotten about needing sound when I first looked and
bought a monitor without speakers. I know I could have gotten a cheap
set of desktop speakers, but figured I'd keep it as simple for her as
possible, so I cancelled the one I had bought the night before and found
one that had built-in speakers.

--
Stand With Israel!
NOTE: If you use Google Groups I don't see you,
unless you're whitelisted and that's doubtful.

On 1/8/2024 1:24 PM, sticks wrote:
> On 1/8/2024 12:36 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
>> sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I ended up getting her a Dell OptiPlex 7040, with 6th gen i5, 32 GB of
>>> DDR4 ram, a new 1TB NVMe M.2 SSD, a spinning 2TB HDD, AX200 Built in
>>> WIFI 6 & Bluetooth 5.2, and a new 20" monitor with built-in speakers.
>>> The whole cost was right at $290.  I think between the cpu and the 32 GB
>>> ram, she's gonna be very happy for now.
>>
>> Where did you find that one?  Included the monitor?
>
> 2 separate purchases.  The box a refurb, the monitor was new.
>
>> Oops, nevermind.  Found:
>>
>> http://dl.dell.com/topicspdf/optiplex-7040-desktop_owners-manual_en-us.pdf
>>
>> which says it supports TPM 1.2.  Windows 11 requires TPM 2.0.  Windows
>> 12 is expected to have the same requirement.  So, she'll be using Win10
>> on that box until she gets another computer.
>
> I'm fairly certain the reg hacks could get it by on both the TPM2 and
> the CPU requirements.  I'll try it out on my laptop with a 2nd gen CPU
> and which I am unsure of the the TPM capabilites of yet.  But like I
> said, it really is irrelevant now if it does work, cause there is no
> point in upgrading if Microsoft won't let you do security updates in the
> future.
>
>> Hopefully she has her own powered speakers.  Those in the monitor are
>> poor.  Not even worth using as a mid-channel.
>
> She's been using  the laptop speakers for years, so whatever the monitor
> comes with will be at least as good, if not better than what she is used
> to.  Plus, she's older and doesn't crank it up like I do.  8-)
> I had actually forgotten about needing sound when I first looked and
> bought a monitor without speakers.  I know I could have gotten a cheap
> set of desktop speakers, but figured I'd keep it as simple for her as
> possible, so I cancelled the one I had bought the night before and found
> one that had built-in speakers.

Delivered the new/used Win 10 box to the MIL and WOW was she happy. So
much faster and usable than the laptop she was using. Got all the Win
10 updates, synced her Firefox, got her IMAP Thunderbird mail client
going. Even downloaded her favorite game and got that up and running.
With her watching, I took a final "Original" macrium image and showed
her how that will back up everything in the middle of the night.

Time and money spent was well worth it when I see how happy this ol'
lady is!

--
Stand With Israel!
NOTE: If you use Google Groups I don't see you,
unless you're whitelisted and that's doubtful.