The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 14/11/2022 17:51, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2022-11-14, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Well forget all the theory. In the end what happens is what happens.
>>> All that is happening now is that governments are desperately trying to
>>> control a global society that they cannot control, and their biggest
>>> worry is that people will rumble to their incompetence stop believing
>>> in their necessaity and stop doing what they are told.
>>> We will ether develop nuclear power and stabilise populations or we will
>>> regress to a Green imagined stone age. Where the 0.1% who survive go
>>> back to a hippy style hunter gatherer lifestyle and a life expectancy of
>>> 25 years.
>>
>> Although, given the fantasies people seem to enjoy, there will probably
>> be a brief Mad Max phase along the way.
>>
> I think looking at Ukraine, that's here already...
>

Mad Vlad?

--
Pete

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 16:41:48 GMT
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>> On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 15:33:08 GMT
>>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>>>
>>>> https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/
>>>>
>>>> see the chart entitled "Earth Surface Temperature given steady 2.3%
>>>> energy growth.
>>>>
>>>> "even a dream source like fusion makes for unbearable conditions in a
>>>> few hundred years if growth continues".
>>>
>>> Larry Niven's solution - move the planet further from the sun.
>>
>> How does that help?
>
> Solar radiation is a large part of the planet's energy balance,
> reduce that to offset the waste energy from industrial processes etc.
>

There are easier ways to reduce the impact of solar radiation. Some guys at
MIT are proposing balloon-like sunshades in orbit. The one thing this has
going for it is that it’s relatively easier than other proposals to reverse
if (when?) things go unexpectedly wrong.

--
Pete

On 2022-11-14, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>On 2022-11-14, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Well forget all the theory. In the end what happens is what happens.
>>> All that is happening now is that governments are desperately trying to
>>> control a global society that they cannot control, and their biggest
>>> worry is that people will rumble to their incompetence stop believing
>>> in their necessaity and stop doing what they are told.
>>> We will ether develop nuclear power and stabilise populations or we will
>>> regress to a Green imagined stone age. Where the 0.1% who survive go
>>> back to a hippy style hunter gatherer lifestyle and a life expectancy of
>>> 25 years.
>>
>>Although, given the fantasies people seem to enjoy, there will probably
>>be a brief Mad Max phase along the way.
>
> Of course, the 'Green imagined stone age' is NP's fantasy. Nobody
> wishes to regress to the 1850s, much less the stone age. There are
> a number of conservatives who wish to regress to the 1950's, but that's
> a different kettle of fish.

Jane Austin's books. It takes a minute to notice the lack of doctors,
and the high rate of childhood deaths.

People still die, only it costs more.

--
greymausg@mail.com

Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of an Influencer.
Where is our money gone, Dude?

On 2022-11-14, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 14 Nov 2022 18:25:55 GMT
> greymaus <greymaus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>
>> Ukraine is Vietnam II, "We could have won,"
>
> Not really Vietnam was a local war with the US backing one side and
> the USSR backing the other but Ukraine has been invaded by Russia and is
> fighting back with a great deal of aid from US, UK and Europe but nobody
> else's army is in there fighting.

I don't think so.
>
> It occurs to me to wonder what the second half of the twentieth
> century would have been like if at the start of WWII Poland had been given
> the kind of support that Ukraine is getting today and Hitler had been
> ground to a halt in Poland. My guess is that a lot fewer people would have
> died in that conflict but the EU might well never have happened.
>

Not many people know that the occupation of narvik in WWII was part of a
plan to help the finns in their Winter War against Russia, and the ships
were under way when the Germans discovered it, and that would interfere
with their iron ore shipments from Kiruna, sweden.

If the western Allies had not encouraged the Poles to resist a genuine
grievance , the ethnic Germans in the `Polish corridor. How did the
western Allies hope to get troops to Poland?.

After the failure of the German attack against Moscow, 1941, Hitler
admitted that he had not believed the German officers reports of how
powerful the Russian Arms Industry was..

If the Western Allies had joined with the USSR in opposing the German
aims in Czechslovakia..

Lots of people would still be alive.

--
greymausg@mail.com

Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of an Influencer.
Where is our money gone, Dude?

Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Energy is not the limiting factor in these times, nuclear power
>>>>> guarantees massive amounts for thousands of years.
>>>>
>>>> What do you plan on doing with the waste heat? That's the heat
>>>> of generation and the heat of use (most energy when used is
>>>> dissipated as heat).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting question. A lot of, or maybe most of, the electricity generated
>>> gets lost as heat during transmission. Room-temperature superconductors at
>>> a reasonable cost would allow us to drop a lot of current generating
>>> capacity and still keep up with projected demand. It should be possible to
>>> eliminate other sources of heat generation - electric cars vs. gas-powered
>>> - for example.
>>
>> The electric car motors produce waste heat. Then there is the heat
>> of friction (atmosphere and tires). All work produces heat. Even LED
>> light bulbs generate heat (albeit less than an incandescent). Metabolization
>> of food produces heat.
>>
>
>Less than IC engines, I expect.

Doesn't really matter. Energy is energy and every unit used yields
waste heat.

Now that said, it's far more likely that we'll overshoot
other resources (like water, food, copper, fertilizers) long before
the waste heat becomes a problem if the growth rate continues.
We already have a serious shortage of Helium.

At rest, a human produces about 100w of power, and a lot is wasted,
primarily as heat.

So with 7 billion humans on the planet, that's almost a terawatt.

With 70 billion (absurd, to be sure), that's 10 terawatts. Today
the entire planet uses about 15 terawatts from all sources

Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 16:41:48 GMT
>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>>
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>>> On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 15:33:08 GMT
>>>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/
>>>>>
>>>>> see the chart entitled "Earth Surface Temperature given steady 2.3%
>>>>> energy growth.
>>>>>
>>>>> "even a dream source like fusion makes for unbearable conditions in a
>>>>> few hundred years if growth continues".
>>>>
>>>> Larry Niven's solution - move the planet further from the sun.
>>>
>>> How does that help?
>>
>> Solar radiation is a large part of the planet's energy balance,
>> reduce that to offset the waste energy from industrial processes etc.
>>
>
>There are easier ways to reduce the impact of solar radiation. Some guys at
>MIT are proposing balloon-like sunshades in orbit. The one thing this has
>going for it is that it’s relatively easier than other proposals to reverse
>if (when?) things go unexpectedly wrong.

Have you (or they) calculated just how big those sunshades must be to
have any significant effect on the TSI (Total Solar Insolation)?

And what orbit will they be in? Orbiting L1? Orbiting the earth (e.g.
Molniya, Halo)? Solar orbit?

L1 would require fairly large sunshield, I would expect, as it will be
orbiting the lagrange point itself, not earth.

Molniya, if oriented in the solar ecliptic, probably wouldn't help much.

A solar orbit sunward of the earth would not be synchronous with the earth.

Ok, looks like the proposal mentioned is:

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.0608163103

Which has a swarm at L1 attempting to block 1.8% of the solar flux.

The sunshade itself is between 3.4 and 9.4 million square kilometers in size
the screen material alone weighing in at between 10 and 250 tons depending
on the distance from earth.

And the choice of size, material and orientation are important:

"In general, the total mass is reduced for sunshades with low
areal density, but very low densities can be orbited near the
L1 point only if they have very low reflectivity to minimize
radiation pressure."

A solar sail, in other words.

And this MIT student wanted (13 years ago) to spend USD500,000,000,000 to try it
on a small scale.

https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/1-018j-ecology-i-the-earth-system-fall-2009/resources/mit1_018jf09_sw_paper1/

On 2022-11-14, Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 16:11:48 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 15:33:08 GMT
>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>>
>>> https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/
>>>
>>> see the chart entitled "Earth Surface Temperature given steady 2.3%
>>> energy growth.
>>>
>>> "even a dream source like fusion makes for unbearable conditions in a
>>> few hundred years if growth continues".
>>
>> Larry Niven's solution - move the planet further from the sun. Also
>> useful for when the sun goes red giant on us.
>
> But, Niven always assumed a near-limitless supply of no-environmental-impact
> energy in his megaengineering solutions.
>
> The Puppeteers moved their planets into a sunless Kepler Rosette using the
> Outsider's reactionless drive, and an unspecified power source.
>
> The Girls moved Earth by using (IIRC) Jupiter as a gravitational tractor,
> moving that planet with a great reaction motor that syphoned off the
> planet's gasses into a fusion reaction.
>
> The Pak Ringworld Engineers tore apart an entire solar system to build the
> Ringworld.
>
> All energy-costly projects, and Niven didn't explore the details or
> aftereffects of that energy expenditure.

Yes, but think of the employment it'll create. Get enough people chanting
"Jobs, jobs, jobs!" and they'll forget all the practical considerations.

Then there's Dyson spheres...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

On 14/11/2022 18:19, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>> On 2022-11-14, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Well forget all the theory. In the end what happens is what happens.
>>> All that is happening now is that governments are desperately trying to
>>> control a global society that they cannot control, and their biggest
>>> worry is that people will rumble to their incompetence stop believing
>>> in their necessaity and stop doing what they are told.
>>> We will ether develop nuclear power and stabilise populations or we will
>>> regress to a Green imagined stone age. Where the 0.1% who survive go
>>> back to a hippy style hunter gatherer lifestyle and a life expectancy of
>>> 25 years.
>>
>> Although, given the fantasies people seem to enjoy, there will probably
>> be a brief Mad Max phase along the way.
>
> Of course, the 'Green imagined stone age' is NP's fantasy. Nobody
> wishes to regress to the 1850s, much less the stone age. There are
> a number of conservatives who wish to regress to the 1950's, but that's
> a different kettle of fish.

Net zero was last achieved about 10,000 years ago

You may think its fantasy, the greens who promnote it may think its
fantas, but that is where their 'solutions' will take us.
Just sayin'

--
“when things get difficult you just have to lie”

― Jean Claud Jüncker

On 14/11/2022 20:04, gareth evans wrote:
> Where there are large organisations virtue signalling
> that they are, or will become, net zero carbon emitters,
> how will they prevent their thousands of employees
> from breatheing out?
>
>
>
Fantastic you tube video on "Vranyo"

A Russian term that means systemic bullshit by everyone because it
pays, and the truth does not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz59GWeTIik

If Russia didn't invent climate change and renewable energy, it was sure
modelled on the KGB propaganda system

--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

On 14/11/2022 20:51, Peter Flass wrote:
> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Energy is not the limiting factor in these times, nuclear power
>>>>> guarantees massive amounts for thousands of years.
>>>>
>>>> What do you plan on doing with the waste heat? That's the heat
>>>> of generation and the heat of use (most energy when used is
>>>> dissipated as heat).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting question. A lot of, or maybe most of, the electricity generated
>>> gets lost as heat during transmission. Room-temperature superconductors at
>>> a reasonable cost would allow us to drop a lot of current generating
>>> capacity and still keep up with projected demand. It should be possible to
>>> eliminate other sources of heat generation - electric cars vs. gas-powered
>>> - for example.
>>
>> The electric car motors produce waste heat. Then there is the heat
>> of friction (atmosphere and tires). All work produces heat. Even LED
>> light bulbs generate heat (albeit less than an incandescent). Metabolization
>> of food produces heat.
>>
>
> Less than IC engines, I expect. i
>
>> https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/
>>
>> see the chart entitled "Earth Surface Temperature given steady 2.3% energy growth.
>>
>> "even a dream source like fusion makes for unbearable conditions in a few hundred
>> years if growth continues".
>>
>
> Why not just use all that excess energy to air condition the earth? ;-)
>

Scott has missed the point.

The earth is not infinite, and no exponential growth can continue long term.
The issue here is to then look at one narrow area and say 'that one
factor is the limiting factor'
There is a hypothesis from I think biology and ecology that shows that
populations are limited by many different factors, and at any given time
one will predominate.

Take Ireland. Before the potato it was limited by poverty and
starvation. Then the potato allowed exponential population growth until
the crop failed, and then it was once again poverty starvation and mass
emigration to the USA.

"Limits to growth" has been criticised for being wrong in various
details, but the main thrust is true.

It is not clear what will in the end limit global population, but right
now there is no need for it to be access to primary energy.

Because we can use massive nuclear energy, and it is not impossible to
dissipate extra energy to space, and even if we don't, we can accomodate
a lot more temperature rise before it becomes a real problem.
Concentrating on the mythical carbon dioxide, as an excuse for draconian
reduction on living standards is to my mind unneccessary.
We have far bigger problems.

--
It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
for the voice of the kingdom.

Jonathan Swift

On 14/11/2022 21:46, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Energy is not the limiting factor in these times, nuclear power
>>>>>> guarantees massive amounts for thousands of years.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you plan on doing with the waste heat? That's the heat
>>>>> of generation and the heat of use (most energy when used is
>>>>> dissipated as heat).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Interesting question. A lot of, or maybe most of, the electricity generated
>>>> gets lost as heat during transmission. Room-temperature superconductors at
>>>> a reasonable cost would allow us to drop a lot of current generating
>>>> capacity and still keep up with projected demand. It should be possible to
>>>> eliminate other sources of heat generation - electric cars vs. gas-powered
>>>> - for example.
>>>
>>> The electric car motors produce waste heat. Then there is the heat
>>> of friction (atmosphere and tires). All work produces heat. Even LED
>>> light bulbs generate heat (albeit less than an incandescent). Metabolization
>>> of food produces heat.
>>>
>>
>> Less than IC engines, I expect.
>
> Doesn't really matter. Energy is energy and every unit used yields
> waste heat.
>
> Now that said, it's far more likely that we'll overshoot
> other resources (like water, food, copper, fertilizers) long before
> the waste heat becomes a problem if the growth rate continues.
> We already have a serious shortage of Helium.
>
> At rest, a human produces about 100w of power, and a lot is wasted,
> primarily as heat.
>
Think its nearer 50W, but your point is well made, and taken

> So with 7 billion humans on the planet, that's almost a terawatt.
>
> With 70 billion (absurd, to be sure), that's 10 terawatts. Today
> the entire planet uses about 15 terawatts from all sources

All the math doesn't add up.
To solve the debt crisis we need population expansions beyond the limit
of the earth to support.
WE have to inevitably stabilise populations, or nature, with another
pandemic, or crop failure , or pollution, or water shortages, or
societal breakdown and mass warfare, will do it for us.

Putin is ahead of the game, but doesn't know it.

No Western government knows what it's doing. They are all micromanaging
the small aspects of the picture, no one has the courage to face up to
the big picture, and if they do, they wouldn't get elected if they told
the truth.
The lemmings will fall off the cliff.

--
Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
Mark Twain

On 14/11/2022 20:51, Peter Flass wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 14/11/2022 17:51, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> On 2022-11-14, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well forget all the theory. In the end what happens is what happens.
>>>> All that is happening now is that governments are desperately trying to
>>>> control a global society that they cannot control, and their biggest
>>>> worry is that people will rumble to their incompetence stop believing
>>>> in their necessaity and stop doing what they are told.
>>>> We will ether develop nuclear power and stabilise populations or we will
>>>> regress to a Green imagined stone age. Where the 0.1% who survive go
>>>> back to a hippy style hunter gatherer lifestyle and a life expectancy of
>>>> 25 years.
>>>
>>> Although, given the fantasies people seem to enjoy, there will probably
>>> be a brief Mad Max phase along the way.
>>>
>> I think looking at Ukraine, that's here already...
>>
>
> Mad Vlad?
>
Pretty much.

One thing people forget about brutal WWI style warfare, is that it pulls
a huge number of young breedable males and females out of the population.

If enforcing compulsory homosexuality doesn't work, have a war.

The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

On 14/11/2022 20:51, Peter Flass wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 16:41:48 GMT
>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>>
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>>> On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 15:33:08 GMT
>>>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/
>>>>>
>>>>> see the chart entitled "Earth Surface Temperature given steady 2.3%
>>>>> energy growth.
>>>>>
>>>>> "even a dream source like fusion makes for unbearable conditions in a
>>>>> few hundred years if growth continues".
>>>>
>>>> Larry Niven's solution - move the planet further from the sun.
>>>
>>> How does that help?
>>
>> Solar radiation is a large part of the planet's energy balance,
>> reduce that to offset the waste energy from industrial processes etc.
>>
>
> There are easier ways to reduce the impact of solar radiation. Some guys at
> MIT are proposing balloon-like sunshades in orbit. The one thing this has
> going for it is that it’s relatively easier than other proposals to reverse
> if (when?) things go unexpectedly wrong.
>
Exactly

--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

On 14/11/2022 21:33, greymaus wrote:
> If the Western Allies had joined with the USSR in opposing the German
> aims in Czechslovakia..
> Lots of people would still be alive.

Hmm. More than 80 years later? In addition, anyone born more
recently [a very large majority of the world's current population] has
cause to be grateful for the actual sequence of events up to the moment
of conception.

--
Andy Walker, Nottingham.
Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Morel

On 2022-11-15, Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> wrote:
> On 14/11/2022 21:33, greymaus wrote:
>> If the Western Allies had joined with the USSR in opposing the German
>> aims in Czechslovakia..
>> Lots of people would still be alive.
>
> Hmm. More than 80 years later? In addition, anyone born more
> recently [a very large majority of the world's current population] has
> cause to be grateful for the actual sequence of events up to the moment
> of conception.
>

Good point. It reminds me of the story of the Persian Army crossing the
Hellespont, and the Shah of the time remarking that in one hundred
years, they would be all dead, even if there was no battle.

I know several people well over 80, that are still running businesses.
The horsetrainer Kevin Prendergast is still active, and has over 20
horses in active training for the coming flat season. Passed 90 last
year.

--
greymausg@mail.com

Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of an Influencer.
Where is our money gone, Dude?

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 21:46:53 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
>Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Energy is not the limiting factor in these times, nuclear power
>>>>>> guarantees massive amounts for thousands of years.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you plan on doing with the waste heat? That's the heat
>>>>> of generation and the heat of use (most energy when used is
>>>>> dissipated as heat).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Interesting question. A lot of, or maybe most of, the electricity generated
>>>> gets lost as heat during transmission. Room-temperature superconductors at
>>>> a reasonable cost would allow us to drop a lot of current generating
>>>> capacity and still keep up with projected demand. It should be possible to
>>>> eliminate other sources of heat generation - electric cars vs. gas-powered
>>>> - for example.
>>>
>>> The electric car motors produce waste heat. Then there is the heat
>>> of friction (atmosphere and tires). All work produces heat. Even LED
>>> light bulbs generate heat (albeit less than an incandescent). Metabolization
>>> of food produces heat.
>>>
>>
>>Less than IC engines, I expect.
>
>Doesn't really matter. Energy is energy and every unit used yields
>waste heat.
>
>Now that said, it's far more likely that we'll overshoot
>other resources (like water, food, copper, fertilizers) long before
>the waste heat becomes a problem if the growth rate continues.
>We already have a serious shortage of Helium.
>
>At rest, a human produces about 100w of power, and a lot is wasted,
>primarily as heat.
>
>So with 7 billion humans on the planet, that's almost a terawatt.

We passed 8 billion just a few days ago.
--
Jim

On 11/13/2022 4:31 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 12/11/2022 19:42, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> On 2022-11-12, D.J <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 11:12:53 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
>>>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That is typical leftists patronising bullshit.
>>>>> The true working classes - the few that are left - believe that all
>>>>> newspapers print shit, the government is definitely out to shag them
>>>>> shitless, and the establishment, from school teachers to police and to
>>>>> politicians, are absolutely on someone else's side and are there to make
>>>>> their lives a misery.
>>>>
>>>> Nah, I've heard with my own ears people, some relatives, who believe
>>>> everything they read in tabloids.
>>>
>>> Brother's headed that way now I guess.
>>> He just read something made his face turn blue.
>>> I ain't got nothing 'gainst the press;
>>> They wouldn't print it if it wasn't true.
>>> -- Joe Jackson: Sunday Papers
>>>
>>
>> If you don't read the papes you are uninformed
>> If you do read the papers you are misinformed
>>
>> Mark Twain
>>
>>
>> I think the Internet and such exchanges as we are engaged in here are
>> slowly eroding public trust in *anything* that a paid for organisation
>> promotes as truth or reality.
>>
>> My conclusions derive from no one source - they are a result of a
>> lifetimes experience. The higher the stakes the bigger the lie.
>>
>> $3.8 trillion spent on 'renewable energy'
>> 0.2% change in carbon emissions
>>
>> Cui Bono?
>>
>
> Everything government does involves a lot of graft, logrolling, and insider
> deals. Usually something gets done with what’s left, although not always.
>

"Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods."

....and...

"Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey
cage."

both are H.L. Mencken quotes.

--

Charles Richmond

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

On 11/13/2022 4:31 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2022-11-13, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the Internet and such exchanges as we are engaged in here are
>>> slowly eroding public trust in *anything* that a paid for organisation
>>> promotes as truth or reality.
>>
>> Good. Maybe then they'll redevelop the ability to judge things
>> for themselves.
>>
>>> My conclusions derive from no one source - they are a result of a
>>> lifetimes experience. The higher the stakes the bigger the lie.
>>>
>>> $3.8 trillion spent on 'renewable energy'
>>> 0.2% change in carbon emissions
>>>
>>> Cui Bono?
>>
>> I no longer care about all these climate change squabbles.
>> Not only have we lost the battle, we've eagerly surrendered.
>> Population growth will outstrip any attempts at conservation -
>> and since population growth is sacred to the Powers That Be,
>> it's just a matter of time before we hit the Malthusian crash.
>> Enjoy yourselves while you can.
>>
>> Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.
>> -- Edward Abbey
>>
>
> Companies all say “we’ve got to do something about this, but they don’t
> want that “something” to affect their business. Something will eventually
> force everyone’s hand. It’s already nearly impossible to get flood
> insurance in coastal Florida. How long before the state starts to add up
> the cost of “beach replenishment” and decides to cut its losses?
>

Do you think that if the US could convince Spain the Fountain of Youth
had been located in Florida... do you think that Spain would take
Florida back (without too large a cash bribe)???

--

Charles Richmond

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

On 2022-11-17, Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

> On 11/13/2022 4:31 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> Companies all say “we’ve got to do something about this, but they don’t
>> want that “something” to affect their business. Something will eventually
>> force everyone’s hand. It’s already nearly impossible to get flood
>> insurance in coastal Florida. How long before the state starts to add up
>> the cost of “beach replenishment” and decides to cut its losses?
>
> Do you think that if the US could convince Spain the Fountain of Youth
> had been located in Florida... do you think that Spain would take
> Florida back (without too large a cash bribe)???

Only if they can remove Mar-a-Lago (or at least its contents) first.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
> On 11/13/2022 4:31 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2022-11-13, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think the Internet and such exchanges as we are engaged in here are
>>>> slowly eroding public trust in *anything* that a paid for organisation
>>>> promotes as truth or reality.
>>>
>>> Good. Maybe then they'll redevelop the ability to judge things
>>> for themselves.
>>>
>>>> My conclusions derive from no one source - they are a result of a
>>>> lifetimes experience. The higher the stakes the bigger the lie.
>>>>
>>>> $3.8 trillion spent on 'renewable energy'
>>>> 0.2% change in carbon emissions
>>>>
>>>> Cui Bono?
>>>
>>> I no longer care about all these climate change squabbles.
>>> Not only have we lost the battle, we've eagerly surrendered.
>>> Population growth will outstrip any attempts at conservation -
>>> and since population growth is sacred to the Powers That Be,
>>> it's just a matter of time before we hit the Malthusian crash.
>>> Enjoy yourselves while you can.
>>>
>>> Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.
>>> -- Edward Abbey
>>>
>>
>> Companies all say “we’ve got to do something about this, but they don’t
>> want that “something” to affect their business. Something will eventually
>> force everyone’s hand. It’s already nearly impossible to get flood
>> insurance in coastal Florida. How long before the state starts to add up
>> the cost of “beach replenishment” and decides to cut its losses?
>>
>
> Do you think that if the US could convince Spain the Fountain of Youth
> had been located in Florida... do you think that Spain would take
> Florida back (without too large a cash bribe)???
>

I think the Spanish are too smart to fall for that.

--
Pete

Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> writes:

> On 11/13/2022 4:31 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2022-11-13, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think the Internet and such exchanges as we are engaged in here are
>>>> slowly eroding public trust in *anything* that a paid for organisation
>>>> promotes as truth or reality.
>>>
>>> Good. Maybe then they'll redevelop the ability to judge things
>>> for themselves.
>>>
>>>> My conclusions derive from no one source - they are a result of a
>>>> lifetimes experience. The higher the stakes the bigger the lie.
>>>>
>>>> $3.8 trillion spent on 'renewable energy'
>>>> 0.2% change in carbon emissions
>>>>
>>>> Cui Bono?
>>>
>>> I no longer care about all these climate change squabbles.
>>> Not only have we lost the battle, we've eagerly surrendered.
>>> Population growth will outstrip any attempts at conservation -
>>> and since population growth is sacred to the Powers That Be,
>>> it's just a matter of time before we hit the Malthusian crash.
>>> Enjoy yourselves while you can.
>>>
>>> Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.
>>> -- Edward Abbey
>>>
>> Companies all say “we’ve got to do something about this, but they
>> don’t
>> want that “something” to affect their business. Something will eventually
>> force everyone’s hand. It’s already nearly impossible to get flood
>> insurance in coastal Florida. How long before the state starts to add up
>> the cost of “beach replenishment” and decides to cut its losses?
>>
>
> Do you think that if the US could convince Spain the Fountain of Youth
> had been located in Florida... do you think that Spain would take
> Florida back (without too large a cash bribe)???
>

Why not convince Florida Republicans that Texas is the place to be? Then
they'll move there and Texas can secede - Texit. :-)

On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 05:02:39 -0500
Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

> Why not convince Florida Republicans that Texas is the place to be? Then
> they'll move there and Texas can secede - Texit. :-)

I think they should take Alabama with them.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 2022-11-19, Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> writes:
>
>> On 11/13/2022 4:31 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 2022-11-13, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think the Internet and such exchanges as we are engaged in here are
>>>>> slowly eroding public trust in *anything* that a paid for organisation
>>>>> promotes as truth or reality.
>>>>
>>>> Good. Maybe then they'll redevelop the ability to judge things
>>>> for themselves.
>>>>
>>>>> My conclusions derive from no one source - they are a result of a
>>>>> lifetimes experience. The higher the stakes the bigger the lie.
>>>>>
>>>>> $3.8 trillion spent on 'renewable energy'
>>>>> 0.2% change in carbon emissions
>>>>>
>>>>> Cui Bono?
>>>>
>>>> I no longer care about all these climate change squabbles.
>>>> Not only have we lost the battle, we've eagerly surrendered.
>>>> Population growth will outstrip any attempts at conservation -
>>>> and since population growth is sacred to the Powers That Be,
>>>> it's just a matter of time before we hit the Malthusian crash.
>>>> Enjoy yourselves while you can.
>>>>
>>>> Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.
>>>> -- Edward Abbey
>>>>
>>> Companies all say “we’ve got to do something about this, but they
>>> don’t
>>> want that “something” to affect their business. Something will eventually
>>> force everyone’s hand. It’s already nearly impossible to get flood
>>> insurance in coastal Florida. How long before the state starts to add up
>>> the cost of “beach replenishment” and decides to cut its losses?
>>>
>>
>> Do you think that if the US could convince Spain the Fountain of Youth
>> had been located in Florida... do you think that Spain would take
>> Florida back (without too large a cash bribe)???
>>
>
> Why not convince Florida Republicans that Texas is the place to be? Then
> they'll move there and Texas can secede - Texit. :-)
>

Florida was originally Spanish, Right?., and with the Cubans,
Venezualans, etc, What was the legality of the US taking over Florida?.
The earliest accounts of Spaniards travelling through Florida detailed a
high number of Indians, village after village, the next was of an almost
deserted place after the European Diseases burned through.

--
greymausg@mail.com

Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of an Influencer.
Where is our money gone, Dude?

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> If you want facts you cant rely on any of it.

Cant indeed.

--
\|/
(((Ï))) – Mr Ön!on
When we shake the ketchup bottle
First none comes and then a lot'll.