On Saturday, April 8, 2023 at 9:07:45 AM UTC-7, David Schmidt wrote:
> On 4/6/23 4:17 PM, fadden wrote:
> > Every language has a runtime.
> If I write DiskStuff.py, you need a Python interpreter. If I write
> DiskStuff.jar, you need a Java runtime.
>
> If I write DiskStuff.exe and DiskStuff.app, you just need an OS.

There are two separate things: compilation to native form, and runtime support.

Compilation to native form can happen ahead of time or "just in time". Java/C# might use an interpreter for something that bloats up when compiled (like large static array initialization), but they generally compile everything to native code before its executed. (It might even be using LLVM, though Java wasn't particularly well suited IIRC.)

C/C++ need libcrt (compiled in), libc.so, and probably some other support libraries; run "ldd" on a Linux executable. There are very few fully "stand-alone" executables anymore. "/sbin/init" on my Ubuntu system is linked against 36 shared libraries. /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu has 24MB of binaries in it. If Java or .NET ships as part of the operating system, then I would argue that a Java or .NET app is equally unencumbered on that platform.

If a program can be distributed in a fully-encapsulated form, then the only drawback vs. a gcc-compiled binary is potentially the distribution size. With modern storage that's more of a philosophical issue than a practical one.

Windows does an amazing job with software; you can still run creaky old versions of CiderPress. Apple discards all software every few years: 68K, then PPC, then x86, then x64, then ARM. They interpret the old stuff for a few years then drop it. Linux effectively invalidates old executables when libc has a major change, and you can't count on building an executable for one distribution and running it on another. Apps compiled to bytecode are easier to distribute and to carry forward because each individual app doesn't need to be recompiled (...unless you have system-specific start code).

(FWIW, Linux *hardware* compatibility is outstanding... you can still use old SCSI cards with the default distribution. Windows breaks the world when they update their driver model.)

On 4/8/23 12:40 PM, fadden wrote:
> On Saturday, April 8, 2023 at 9:07:45 AM UTC-7, David Schmidt wrote:
>> On 4/6/23 4:17 PM, fadden wrote:
>>> Every language has a runtime.
>> If I write DiskStuff.py, you need a Python interpreter. If I write
>> DiskStuff.jar, you need a Java runtime.
>>
>> If I write DiskStuff.exe and DiskStuff.app, you just need an OS.
>
> There are two separate things: compilation to native form, and runtime support.

Yep, well aware. But the end result for Joe or Jane user is much
simpler: do they need to install and run one thing, or do they need to
install run two things? My experience is that they're much happier when
it's just one. The onus is now on me to maintain backwards and forwards
compatibility, and not on them.

On Friday, April 7, 2023 at 2:25:20 PM UTC-5, Antoine Vignau wrote:
> Link to the macOS version of Cadius at the bottom of http://www.brutaldeluxe.fr/products/crossdevtools/cadius/

Thank you Antoine!

-Mark

On Saturday, April 8, 2023 at 11:40:43 AM UTC-5, fadden wrote:
>Windows does an amazing job with software; you can still run creaky old versions of CiderPress. Apple discards all software >every few years: 68K, then PPC, then x86, then x64, then ARM. They interpret the old stuff for a few years then drop it.

I love this about Windows and hate that about Apple.

Hi,

>On Saturday, April 8, 2023 at 11:40:43=E2=80=AFAM UTC-5, fadden wrote:
>>Windows does an amazing job with software; you can still run creaky old ve=
>rsions of CiderPress. Apple discards all software >every few years: 68K, th=
>en PPC, then x86, then x64, then ARM. They interpret the old stuff for a fe=
>w years then drop it.=20
>
>I love this about Windows and hate that about Apple.

Full ACK! I'm writing this on my Forte Free Agent from 1999 which runs
almost flawlessly on my recent Windows :-)

Regards,
Oliver

On Thursday, April 6, 2023 at 10:44:48 AM UTC-5, Joshua Bell wrote:
> For A2D, builds are done on macOS (locally) or Linux (github actions); no-one has pursued Windows successfully yet.
>
> * cc65's ca65 cross-assembler
> * Makefiles
> * Cadius
> * nulib2 for SHK files (optional)
> ... and lots and lots of bash scripts.

I think the best value of looking at the A2D sources is all of the macro support you have in place there for safely handling SELF_MODIFIED_BYTE optimizations, MAIN/AUX mem splits, tail call optimizations, etc. Having a decent safety net for implementing all of those little memory-saving techniques really seems to have a compounded effect on improving that codebase.

Maybe that's something that could be useful to adapt to a large codebase like Nox in addition to the suggestions for the build tools themselves.

-Lucas

On Saturday, April 8, 2023 at 6:57:53 PM UTC-7, Mark Lemmert wrote:
> On Saturday, April 8, 2023 at 11:40:43 AM UTC-5, fadden wrote:
> >Windows does an amazing job with software; you can still run creaky old versions of CiderPress. Apple discards all software >every few years: 68K, then PPC, then x86, then x64, then ARM. They interpret the old stuff for a few years then drop it.
> I love this about Windows and hate that about Apple.

Microsoft looks towards the past, Apple towards the future. Neither is better, just different. There are pros and cons for each philosophy. One is built upon hack-after-hack, the other abandoned although in Apple's case at least they provide notice and support deprecated features for a little bit before completely yanking the rug.

Apple is one of the few companies that have had their ecosystem (OS & Apps) migrate through 4 hardware changes as mentioned above because they are about making _their_ life easier, consumer be damned. Yeah, it is frustrating knowing the hardware is perfectly good, albeit slow, and no longer supported.

Microsoft was about making the consumer's life easier (when they aren't CONSTANTLY fucking up the UI). "Lately" they have switched to more of an Apple approach with their shenanigans of dropping support for newer CPUs (Ryzen) on Windows 7 because they are about shoving Windows 10 and 11 down consumer's throats. As bad as Windows is, a bad defacto standard is still better then no standard at all. /me Throwing light shade at Linux. :-)

Microsoft is also still struggling to treat ARM as a first class citizen. Ironically Windows NT also used to initially support MIPS and Dec Alpha. Part of the difference is due to Apple being a hardware company and MS was traditionally a software company (excluding the odd example of MS selling a 16 KB Language Card for the Apple 2 until they got serious about Mice, Keyboards, and Consoles.) MS bet big on "investing" in the Developer Ecosystem and it paid off, although Apple is having the last laugh their popularity of mobile and tablets.

I've been using Windows, MacOS, and Linux for decades. Operating Systems, like Editors, ALL suck. The trick is to find the one(s) that annoy you the least so you can get your work done. =P

Michael

....

> I've been using Windows, MacOS, and Linux for decades. Operating Systems, like Editors, ALL suck. The trick is to find the one(s) that annoy you the least so you can get your work done. =P

Boy, did you hit the nail on the head. I think Apple and MS are secretly working together to write some software that really sucks and the other guy writes that same software to be really good. How is it that neither company has the same software where they are both really good or both really bad?

One of the reasons I love programming on the IIGS, or more importantly in emulators, is to try to make software that can do the same thing, but way more efficient and not as bloated, as both company's counterpart software.

On Sunday, April 9, 2023 at 1:44:38 PM UTC-5, Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev' wrote:

> I've been using Windows, MacOS, and Linux for decades. Operating Systems, like Editors, ALL suck. The trick is to find the >one(s) that annoy you the least so you can get your work done. =P
>
> Michael

I think this really sums up my feelings on it as well!

-Mark