Does Thunderbird have a setting that asks if the user is sure he wants
to delete an individual email message? I haven't found it. When I
press the delete key, or click the delete text, Thunderbird does just
that, deletes, without asking me if I'm sure I want to 'delete'.

Thunderbird v. 78.11.0 x64

On 6/13/2022 3:34 PM, Boris wrote:
> Does Thunderbird have a setting that asks if the user is sure he wants
> to delete an individual email message? I haven't found it. When I
> press the delete key, or click the delete text, Thunderbird does just
> that, deletes, without asking me if I'm sure I want to 'delete'.
>
> Thunderbird v. 78.11.0 x64
>

If the message is really on your PC (POP3, not IMAP), however,
Thunderbird does not really delete the message. Instead, it moves the
message to a "Trash" folder from which it can be restored or moved to
some other folder.

--
David E. Ross
"A Message to Those Who Are Not Vaccinated"
See my <http://www.rossde.com/index.html#vaccine>.

"David E. Ross" <nobody@notme.invalid> wrote in news:t88jq0$1ht0$1
@gioia.aioe.org:

> On 6/13/2022 3:34 PM, Boris wrote:
>> Does Thunderbird have a setting that asks if the user is sure he wants
>> to delete an individual email message? I haven't found it. When I
>> press the delete key, or click the delete text, Thunderbird does just
>> that, deletes, without asking me if I'm sure I want to 'delete'.
>>
>> Thunderbird v. 78.11.0 x64
>>
>
> If the message is really on your PC (POP3, not IMAP), however,
> Thunderbird does not really delete the message. Instead, it moves the
> message to a "Trash" folder from which it can be restored or moved to
> some other folder.
>

Yes, this is a POP3 setup, and what you describe is exactly what happens.
So, I guess there's no 'are you sure you want to delete this...'. There
is if I want to delete an entire mail folder (which if I say, sure, go
ahead), also ends up in the Trash folder.

The reason I asked is because I was cleaning out the inbox, and I
mistakenly deleted an email from back in 2021. It was like hell trying to
find it in the Trash.

Thanks for the reply.

David E. Ross wrote:

> On 6/13/2022 3:34 PM, Boris wrote:
>> Does Thunderbird have a setting that asks if the user is sure he wants
>> to delete an individual email message? I haven't found it. When I
>> press the delete key, or click the delete text, Thunderbird does just
>> that, deletes, without asking me if I'm sure I want to 'delete'.
>>
>> Thunderbird v. 78.11.0 x64
>>
>
> If the message is really on your PC (POP3, not IMAP), however,
> Thunderbird does not really delete the message. Instead, it moves the
> message to a "Trash" folder from which it can be restored or moved to
> some other folder.

Even for IMAP, a normal delete operation on a message *moves* it from
the current folder into the Trash folder (on the server reflected in the
client). Not until the client sends an expunge command are the
delete-flagged messages removed from the server (and reflected back in
the client).

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3501#page-49

To delete-flag a message requires permanent deletion, like you used
Shift+Del or deleted from the Trash folder. Clients that delay the
expunge command usually indicate a delete-flagged message by drawing a
red line through the entry in the header pane.

For IMAP accounts in Thunderbird, you go into the account's settings to
decide what action to perform on a delete GUI event. Go to Tools ->
Account Settings -> Server Settings -> "When I delete a message" which
has choices of:

Move it to the Trash folder
Mark it as deleted (message delete-flagged, removed on next expunge)
Remove it immediately (message delete-flagged, expunge sent)

The last two emulate a permanent delete operation, like when you use
Shift+Del on a message, or delete a message from the Trash folder.
Instead of Del /moving/ a message to the Trash folder (the default), the
default becomes a permanent delete (delete-flag the message, eventually
issue the expunge command).

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3501#page-49

As I recall, running a compact on Tbird's message store issues the
expunge command. Some clients will automatically issue the expunge
command when you change focus, like selecting a different folder, so the
expunge gets delayed. The 3rd option above immediately issues the
expunge command which can be a noisy and abusive selection if, for
example, you select thousands of messages and then delete them all at
once.

http://kb.mozillazine.org/Deleting_messages_in_IMAP_accounts

I wasn't aware that Shift+Del in Tbird ever initiated a message store
compact operation. The mozillazine article says "Remove immediately" is
a lie. The message is just removed from view (the record's visibility
attribute is set to false). It still sits in the message store awaiting
for whenever you or Tbird does a compact to then issue the expunge
command. "Remove immediately" is like a little kid sitting on your lap,
putting their hands over their eyes, and saying "You can't see me."

Boris wrote:

> The reason I asked is because I was cleaning out the inbox, and I
> mistakenly deleted an email from back in 2021. It was like hell
> trying to find it in the Trash.

You would've had to known something about the "deleted" message (that
was actually moved to the Trash folder) to be able to find it.

https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Help_Documentation:Finding_Information_in_Messages
See the "More Advanced Searches" section.

I don't know if the search on date method lets you specify a date range,
like 2021-01-01 to 2021-12-31, or if it just does the "received in the
last N days" mentioned in the article.

If you knew you wanted back all e-mails dated in 2021, you could've
sorted the list of message in the Trash folder by date, scroll down to
the first one that was in 2021, select it, scroll down the last one
dated in 2021, hit Shift+Enter to select all the 2021 messages, and drag
them all back en mass to Inbox, or wherever you wanted.

Boris wrote:

> Does Thunderbird have a setting that asks if the user is sure he wants
> to delete an individual email message? I haven't found it. When I
> press the delete key, or click the delete text, Thunderbird does just
> that, deletes, without asking me if I'm sure I want to 'delete'.
>
> Thunderbird v. 78.11.0 x64

Deletion doesn't delete. It moves the message to the Trash folder. The
message hasn't yet been deleted, just moved. No prompt really necessary
for moving from current folder into the Trash folder.

If you permanently delete a message (Shift+Del key combo, or delete a
message in the Trash folder), you don't get the safety net alert asking
you to verify the permanent (real) deletion?
https://www.lifewire.com/delete-message-bypass-trash-thunderbird-1173206
that notes you get a "Confirm Deletion" warning, and then you can choose
Delete. If you enable the "Don't ask again" option in that dialog,
permanent deletes don't get the safety prompt. I don't remember after
selecting the "Don't ask again" option where to revert that decision via
a GUI config setting, or by using the config editor.

Also, as I recall, until the Tbird message store is compacted, the
message still exists there even after permanent deletion.

Boris wrote:

> Does Thunderbird have a setting that asks if the user is sure he wants
> to delete an individual email message? I haven't found it. When I
> press the delete key, or click the delete text, Thunderbird does just
> that, deletes, without asking me if I'm sure I want to 'delete'.
>
> Thunderbird v. 78.11.0 x64

FYI: There is a newsgroup for Thunderbird over at ---.
..----------------------------------------------------'
'---> alt.comp.software.thunderbird

On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 00:52:24 -0000 (UTC), Boris <Boris@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>"David E. Ross" <nobody@notme.invalid> wrote in news:t88jq0$1ht0$1
>@gioia.aioe.org:
>
>> On 6/13/2022 3:34 PM, Boris wrote:
>>> Does Thunderbird have a setting that asks if the user is sure he wants
>>> to delete an individual email message? I haven't found it. When I
>>> press the delete key, or click the delete text, Thunderbird does just
>>> that, deletes, without asking me if I'm sure I want to 'delete'.
>>>
>>> Thunderbird v. 78.11.0 x64
>>>
>>
>> If the message is really on your PC (POP3, not IMAP), however,
>> Thunderbird does not really delete the message. Instead, it moves the
>> message to a "Trash" folder from which it can be restored or moved to
>> some other folder.
>>
>
>Yes, this is a POP3 setup, and what you describe is exactly what happens.
>So, I guess there's no 'are you sure you want to delete this...'. There
>is if I want to delete an entire mail folder (which if I say, sure, go
>ahead), also ends up in the Trash folder.
>
>The reason I asked is because I was cleaning out the inbox, and I
>mistakenly deleted an email from back in 2021. It was like hell trying to
>find it in the Trash.

Sounds like you may have been a bit lax on your Trash folder
maintenance. I empty mine multiple times per day, every day.

If that's not practical, perhaps your email client has a search function
so that you wouldn't have to do any manual searching.

On 6/13/2022 5:52 PM, Boris wrote:
> "David E. Ross" <nobody@notme.invalid> wrote in news:t88jq0$1ht0$1
> @gioia.aioe.org:
>
>> On 6/13/2022 3:34 PM, Boris wrote:
>>> Does Thunderbird have a setting that asks if the user is sure he wants
>>> to delete an individual email message? I haven't found it. When I
>>> press the delete key, or click the delete text, Thunderbird does just
>>> that, deletes, without asking me if I'm sure I want to 'delete'.
>>>
>>> Thunderbird v. 78.11.0 x64
>>>
>>
>> If the message is really on your PC (POP3, not IMAP), however,
>> Thunderbird does not really delete the message. Instead, it moves the
>> message to a "Trash" folder from which it can be restored or moved to
>> some other folder.
>>
>
> Yes, this is a POP3 setup, and what you describe is exactly what happens.
> So, I guess there's no 'are you sure you want to delete this...'. There
> is if I want to delete an entire mail folder (which if I say, sure, go
> ahead), also ends up in the Trash folder.
>
> The reason I asked is because I was cleaning out the inbox, and I
> mistakenly deleted an email from back in 2021. It was like hell trying to
> find it in the Trash.
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>

Oops!! I have set the properties on my Trash folder to delete anything
older than 30 days. If I "delete" something -- moving it to Trash --
from 2021, it will disappear forever and not be retrievable. Most of my
other E-mail folders have their properties set to retain everything
forever.

--
David E. Ross
"A Message to Those Who Are Not Vaccinated"
See my <http://www.rossde.com/index.html#vaccine>.

On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 21:26:18 -0500, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
wrote:

>On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 00:52:24 -0000 (UTC), Boris <Boris@invalid.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>"David E. Ross" <nobody@notme.invalid> wrote in news:t88jq0$1ht0$1
>>@gioia.aioe.org:
>>
>>> On 6/13/2022 3:34 PM, Boris wrote:
>>>> Does Thunderbird have a setting that asks if the user is sure he wants
>>>> to delete an individual email message? I haven't found it. When I
>>>> press the delete key, or click the delete text, Thunderbird does just
>>>> that, deletes, without asking me if I'm sure I want to 'delete'.
>>>>
>>>> Thunderbird v. 78.11.0 x64
>>>>
>>>
>>> If the message is really on your PC (POP3, not IMAP), however,
>>> Thunderbird does not really delete the message. Instead, it moves the
>>> message to a "Trash" folder from which it can be restored or moved to
>>> some other folder.
>>>
>>
>>Yes, this is a POP3 setup, and what you describe is exactly what happens.
>>So, I guess there's no 'are you sure you want to delete this...'. There
>>is if I want to delete an entire mail folder (which if I say, sure, go
>>ahead), also ends up in the Trash folder.
>>
>>The reason I asked is because I was cleaning out the inbox, and I
>>mistakenly deleted an email from back in 2021. It was like hell trying to
>>find it in the Trash.
>
>Sounds like you may have been a bit lax on your Trash folder
>maintenance. I empty mine multiple times per day, every day.

Each to his own, of course, but I never empty mine. Doing what you do
is like not having a trash folder at all. I want to keep what's there,
in case I ever realize I made a mistake and want a message back. That
doesn't happen often, but every now and then...

You may call it lax, but what I do is periodically delete all the
*older* messages in the trash folder--anything more than a month or
two old.

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote in news:v0yff8w9z8y5$.dlg@v.nguard.lh:

> Boris wrote:
>
>> Does Thunderbird have a setting that asks if the user is sure he wants
>> to delete an individual email message? I haven't found it. When I
>> press the delete key, or click the delete text, Thunderbird does just
>> that, deletes, without asking me if I'm sure I want to 'delete'.
>>
>> Thunderbird v. 78.11.0 x64
>
> FYI: There is a newsgroup for Thunderbird over at ---.
> .----------------------------------------------------'
> '---> alt.comp.software.thunderbird

Ah, thank you. I should have looked.

On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 08:02:04 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 21:26:18 -0500, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 00:52:24 -0000 (UTC), Boris <Boris@invalid.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>"David E. Ross" <nobody@notme.invalid> wrote in news:t88jq0$1ht0$1
>>>@gioia.aioe.org:
>>>
>>>> On 6/13/2022 3:34 PM, Boris wrote:
>>>>> Does Thunderbird have a setting that asks if the user is sure he wants
>>>>> to delete an individual email message? I haven't found it. When I
>>>>> press the delete key, or click the delete text, Thunderbird does just
>>>>> that, deletes, without asking me if I'm sure I want to 'delete'.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thunderbird v. 78.11.0 x64
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If the message is really on your PC (POP3, not IMAP), however,
>>>> Thunderbird does not really delete the message. Instead, it moves the
>>>> message to a "Trash" folder from which it can be restored or moved to
>>>> some other folder.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, this is a POP3 setup, and what you describe is exactly what happens.
>>>So, I guess there's no 'are you sure you want to delete this...'. There
>>>is if I want to delete an entire mail folder (which if I say, sure, go
>>>ahead), also ends up in the Trash folder.
>>>
>>>The reason I asked is because I was cleaning out the inbox, and I
>>>mistakenly deleted an email from back in 2021. It was like hell trying to
>>>find it in the Trash.
>>
>>Sounds like you may have been a bit lax on your Trash folder
>>maintenance. I empty mine multiple times per day, every day.
>
>
>Each to his own, of course,

Agreed.

>but I never empty mine.

Never? Not even automatically when you close your mail client? I don't
understand that approach at all. At best, I thought there might be a
discussion about how often to empty a Trash folder, but I didn't expect
the opening bid to be never. :-)

>Doing what you do is like not having a trash folder at all.

I disagree, but I see why you think so. When I do email maintenance, I
tend to delete dozens or even hundreds of emails from various folders,
and when I'm done I empty the Trash folder. The (short) period of time
between deleting and emptying is my opportunity to reverse a decision,
but I don't remember ever doing so.

>I want to keep what's there,
>in case I ever realize I made a mistake and want a message back. That
>doesn't happen often, but every now and then...
>
>You may call it lax, but what I do is periodically delete all the
>*older* messages in the trash folder--anything more than a month or
>two old.

Do you also keep files in your Windows Recycle Bin? I know of many
people who do, and you might remember there was someone in the Windows
groups who routinely used his Recycle Bin as an actual storage location
(!!), but my approach is to empty the Recycle Bin multiple times per
day. My use case might be non-typical, though. I tend to delete 100-300
gigs daily, and sometimes it's much closer to a terabyte, so keeping
that stuff around just wouldn't make sense.

On 6/14/2022 10:48 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 08:02:04 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 21:26:18 -0500, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 00:52:24 -0000 (UTC), Boris <Boris@invalid.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "David E. Ross" <nobody@notme.invalid> wrote in news:t88jq0$1ht0$1
>>>> @gioia.aioe.org:
>>>>
>>>>> On 6/13/2022 3:34 PM, Boris wrote:
>>>>>> Does Thunderbird have a setting that asks if the user is sure he wants
>>>>>> to delete an individual email message? I haven't found it. When I
>>>>>> press the delete key, or click the delete text, Thunderbird does just
>>>>>> that, deletes, without asking me if I'm sure I want to 'delete'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thunderbird v. 78.11.0 x64
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If the message is really on your PC (POP3, not IMAP), however,
>>>>> Thunderbird does not really delete the message. Instead, it moves the
>>>>> message to a "Trash" folder from which it can be restored or moved to
>>>>> some other folder.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, this is a POP3 setup, and what you describe is exactly what happens.
>>>> So, I guess there's no 'are you sure you want to delete this...'. There
>>>> is if I want to delete an entire mail folder (which if I say, sure, go
>>>> ahead), also ends up in the Trash folder.
>>>>
>>>> The reason I asked is because I was cleaning out the inbox, and I
>>>> mistakenly deleted an email from back in 2021. It was like hell trying to
>>>> find it in the Trash.
>>>
>>> Sounds like you may have been a bit lax on your Trash folder
>>> maintenance. I empty mine multiple times per day, every day.
>>
>>
>> Each to his own, of course,
>
> Agreed.
>
>> but I never empty mine.
>
> Never? Not even automatically when you close your mail client? I don't
> understand that approach at all. At best, I thought there might be a
> discussion about how often to empty a Trash folder, but I didn't expect
> the opening bid to be never. :-)
>
>> Doing what you do is like not having a trash folder at all.
>
> I disagree, but I see why you think so. When I do email maintenance, I
> tend to delete dozens or even hundreds of emails from various folders,
> and when I'm done I empty the Trash folder. The (short) period of time
> between deleting and emptying is my opportunity to reverse a decision,
> but I don't remember ever doing so.
>
>> I want to keep what's there,
>> in case I ever realize I made a mistake and want a message back. That
>> doesn't happen often, but every now and then...
>>
>> You may call it lax, but what I do is periodically delete all the
>> *older* messages in the trash folder--anything more than a month or
>> two old.
>
> Do you also keep files in your Windows Recycle Bin? I know of many
> people who do, and you might remember there was someone in the Windows
> groups who routinely used his Recycle Bin as an actual storage location
> (!!), but my approach is to empty the Recycle Bin multiple times per
> day. My use case might be non-typical, though. I tend to delete 100-300
> gigs daily, and sometimes it's much closer to a terabyte, so keeping
> that stuff around just wouldn't make sense.
>

I never manually empty my Trash folder. I set the properties for Trash
to delete automatically anything that is older than 30 days. Every so
often, I check Trash. If Thunderbird's status bar indicates 3 or more
items have been deleted from Trash, I then compact the entire account.

I empty my Windows Recycle folder several times a day.

--
David E. Ross
"A Message to Those Who Are Not Vaccinated"
See my <http://www.rossde.com/index.html#vaccine>.

On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 00:52:24 -0000 (UTC), Boris
<Boris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>"David E. Ross" <nobody@notme.invalid> wrote in news:t88jq0$1ht0$1
>@gioia.aioe.org:
>
>> On 6/13/2022 3:34 PM, Boris wrote:
>>> Does Thunderbird have a setting that asks if the user is sure he wants
>>> to delete an individual email message? I haven't found it. When I
>>> press the delete key, or click the delete text, Thunderbird does just
>>> that, deletes, without asking me if I'm sure I want to 'delete'.
>>>
>>> Thunderbird v. 78.11.0 x64
>>>
>>
>> If the message is really on your PC (POP3, not IMAP), however,
>> Thunderbird does not really delete the message. Instead, it moves the
>> message to a "Trash" folder from which it can be restored or moved to
>> some other folder.
>>
>
>Yes, this is a POP3 setup, and what you describe is exactly what happens.
>So, I guess there's no 'are you sure you want to delete this...'. There
>is if I want to delete an entire mail folder (which if I say, sure, go
>ahead), also ends up in the Trash folder.

Toolbar, Edit, "Undo". Or CTRL-z.

Keep doing it until the message you want to recover comes back.

And don't feel bad, everyone but me has done this. :)

>
>The reason I asked is because I was cleaning out the inbox, and I
>mistakenly deleted an email from back in 2021. It was like hell trying to
>find it in the Trash.

Might I humbly suggest cleaning out the trash every month or so? That
way, finding stuff is easier.

In TBird, making "archive" folders for keeping things you may need
one day is dead easy. Just add a sub-folder to local folders, call it,
"Sister-Sue" or "Work-2022" or whatever and save ["move"] stuff to it.
J.

>
>Thanks for the reply.

Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:
[...]

> Do you also keep files in your Windows Recycle Bin? I know of many
> people who do, and you might remember there was someone in the Windows
> groups who routinely used his Recycle Bin as an actual storage location
> (!!), but my approach is to empty the Recycle Bin multiple times per
> day. My use case might be non-typical, though. I tend to delete 100-300
> gigs daily, and sometimes it's much closer to a terabyte, so keeping
> that stuff around just wouldn't make sense.

Anecdote:

My NAS filled up much more quickly than I expected, so I was having a
look to see what the heck was going on. Turned out that all shares on
the NAS had their Recycle Bin turned on by default. So when my backup
procedure deleted old backups, the NAS dutifuly kept them in its Recycle
Bin. If that's not a clever way to sell disk drives, I don't know what
*is*! :-)

As to the Windows Recycle Bin, there's hardly anything in mine. I
normally delete things permanently (Shift-Delete). Yes, I live
'dangerously', but that's what backup [1] (see above) is for! :-)

[1] Yeah, I know backup doesn't cover all oops scenarios.

On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 12:48:24 -0500, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
wrote:

>On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 08:02:04 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 21:26:18 -0500, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 00:52:24 -0000 (UTC), Boris <Boris@invalid.invalid>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>"David E. Ross" <nobody@notme.invalid> wrote in news:t88jq0$1ht0$1
>>>>@gioia.aioe.org:
>>>>
>>>>> On 6/13/2022 3:34 PM, Boris wrote:
>>>>>> Does Thunderbird have a setting that asks if the user is sure he wants
>>>>>> to delete an individual email message? I haven't found it. When I
>>>>>> press the delete key, or click the delete text, Thunderbird does just
>>>>>> that, deletes, without asking me if I'm sure I want to 'delete'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thunderbird v. 78.11.0 x64
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If the message is really on your PC (POP3, not IMAP), however,
>>>>> Thunderbird does not really delete the message. Instead, it moves the
>>>>> message to a "Trash" folder from which it can be restored or moved to
>>>>> some other folder.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yes, this is a POP3 setup, and what you describe is exactly what happens.
>>>>So, I guess there's no 'are you sure you want to delete this...'. There
>>>>is if I want to delete an entire mail folder (which if I say, sure, go
>>>>ahead), also ends up in the Trash folder.
>>>>
>>>>The reason I asked is because I was cleaning out the inbox, and I
>>>>mistakenly deleted an email from back in 2021. It was like hell trying to
>>>>find it in the Trash.
>>>
>>>Sounds like you may have been a bit lax on your Trash folder
>>>maintenance. I empty mine multiple times per day, every day.
>>
>>
>>Each to his own, of course,
>
>Agreed.
>
>>but I never empty mine.
>
>Never? Not even automatically when you close your mail client? I don't
>understand that approach at all. At best, I thought there might be a
>discussion about how often to empty a Trash folder, but I didn't expect
>the opening bid to be never. :-)

Never. As I said, I delete older messages there periodically, but I
never completely empty it.

>
>>Doing what you do is like not having a trash folder at all.
>
>I disagree, but I see why you think so. When I do email maintenance, I
>tend to delete dozens or even hundreds of emails from various folders,
>and when I'm done I empty the Trash folder. The (short) period of time
>between deleting and emptying is my opportunity to reverse a decision,
>but I don't remember ever doing so.

>>I want to keep what's there,
>>in case I ever realize I made a mistake and want a message back. That
>>doesn't happen often, but every now and then...
>>
>>You may call it lax, but what I do is periodically delete all the
>>*older* messages in the trash folder--anything more than a month or
>>two old.
>
>Do you also keep files in your Windows Recycle Bin?

Yes. Again, I remove older messages there periodically.

> I know of many
>people who do, and you might remember there was someone in the Windows
>groups who routinely used his Recycle Bin as an actual storage location

If I knew that, I had forgotten. Weird.

>(!!), but my approach is to empty the Recycle Bin multiple times per
>day. My use case might be non-typical, though. I tend to delete 100-300
>gigs daily, and sometimes it's much closer to a terabyte, so keeping
>that stuff around just wouldn't make sense.

You have many more files than most of us have, and you delete more
than most of us do.

Frank Slootweg wrote:

> Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
>
>> Do you also keep files in your Windows Recycle Bin? I know of many
>> people who do, and you might remember there was someone in the Windows
>> groups who routinely used his Recycle Bin as an actual storage location
>> (!!), but my approach is to empty the Recycle Bin multiple times per
>> day. My use case might be non-typical, though. I tend to delete 100-300
>> gigs daily, and sometimes it's much closer to a terabyte, so keeping
>> that stuff around just wouldn't make sense.
>
> Anecdote:
>
> My NAS filled up much more quickly than I expected, so I was having a
> look to see what the heck was going on. Turned out that all shares on
> the NAS had their Recycle Bin turned on by default. So when my backup
> procedure deleted old backups, the NAS dutifuly kept them in its Recycle
> Bin. If that's not a clever way to sell disk drives, I don't know what
> *is*! :-)
>
> As to the Windows Recycle Bin, there's hardly anything in mine. I
> normally delete things permanently (Shift-Delete). Yes, I live
> 'dangerously', but that's what backup [1] (see above) is for! :-)
>
> [1] Yeah, I know backup doesn't cover all oops scenarios.

I use Macrium Reflect Home for image backups (full monthly, differential
weekly, and incremental daily), and have never seen it fill up the
Recycle Bin. Each backup type has a retention assigned to it: old
backups eventually deleted, but I go by backup counts instead of age (26
for full, 5 for differential, and 15 for incremental). The longest the
backups (full) are retained is 6 months. That's to ensure that the
backup drive continues to have sufficient space for future backups. If
I wanted a longer retention, like a year or 5 years, I'd have to get a
much bigger backup drive (and an external mirroring drive that backs up
the backups). Rarely have I needed to go farther back than a month to
restore my setup.

While Reflect has retention policies that delete old backups, the
deleted backups don't go into the Recycle Bin. They are permanently
deleted. Guess Macrium saw that misstep a long time ago.

I use Reflect for image backups. For file-level backups, and only on
some important folders, I use SyncBack which is synchronizing the source
and backup folders versus backups that are retaining a history of files.
The source and backup locations are mirrored, but there would be some
delete operations. If I delete a file at a source, it disappears from
the destination, except I configured a 7-day lag for the deletes at the
destination just in case I need to recover from an Oops at the source.
A delete at the source is just a regular delete: the "deleted" file goes
into the Recycle Bin. A delete at the destination (mirroring) doesn't
fill up the Recycle Bin on that drive. The reason is easy: there is no
Recycle Bin on the mirroring drive. Wouldn't make sense to have one
there.

Since a NAS drive could be for any type of data, not just for backups,
the mfr probably had the Recycle Bin enabled for the same reason it is
enabled on all your internal drives as a safety net to users. Your
backup program should be doing permanent deletes when backups exceed
their retention period. Other data files you save on NAS probably
should have the Recycle Bin as a safety net. For example, you might be
sharing documents on a NAS drive (not backups, not mirrored copies, but
just data files), and want the ability to recover a delete on, say, an
Excel spreadsheet that has been updated for years for your health or car
maintenance records.

Rather than focus on the Recycle Bin for the NAS drive, seems you should
focus on my whatever backup software you are using does a file-move
delete instead of a permanent delete.

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
> > Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> >> Do you also keep files in your Windows Recycle Bin? I know of many
> >> people who do, and you might remember there was someone in the Windows
> >> groups who routinely used his Recycle Bin as an actual storage location
> >> (!!), but my approach is to empty the Recycle Bin multiple times per
> >> day. My use case might be non-typical, though. I tend to delete 100-300
> >> gigs daily, and sometimes it's much closer to a terabyte, so keeping
> >> that stuff around just wouldn't make sense.
> >
> > Anecdote:
> >
> > My NAS filled up much more quickly than I expected, so I was having a
> > look to see what the heck was going on. Turned out that all shares on
> > the NAS had their Recycle Bin turned on by default. So when my backup
> > procedure deleted old backups, the NAS dutifuly kept them in its Recycle
> > Bin. If that's not a clever way to sell disk drives, I don't know what
> > *is*! :-)
> >
> > As to the Windows Recycle Bin, there's hardly anything in mine. I
> > normally delete things permanently (Shift-Delete). Yes, I live
> > 'dangerously', but that's what backup [1] (see above) is for! :-)
> >
> > [1] Yeah, I know backup doesn't cover all oops scenarios.
[...]
> Since a NAS drive could be for any type of data, not just for backups,
> the mfr probably had the Recycle Bin enabled for the same reason it is
> enabled on all your internal drives as a safety net to users.

Yes, that's probably why the Recycle Bin is enabled by default.

> Your
> backup program should be doing permanent deletes when backups exceed
> their retention period.

The backup software just does file deletes, that's it. For normal
storage - i.e. HDD, SDD, etc. - that's all there's to it. For those
devices, there no such thing as a "permanent delete". (Does *Windows*
have a "permanent delete" (normal) system/library call? Yes, *File
Explorer* has a "permanent delete" function, but we're not talking about
FE functionality, we're talking about a (backup) program making normal
system/library calls.)

[...]

> Rather than focus on the Recycle Bin for the NAS drive, seems you should
> focus on my whatever backup software you are using does a file-move
> delete instead of a permanent delete.

I think nothing is to blame here, not the NAS (as you say, it's a
feature, not a bug) and not my backup software (which is Cobian Backup).
(FYI, the exact same backup software works fine to external HDD, because
that doesn't have a Recycle Bin (or it's disabled).)

As to your comments on Macrium Reflect Home not filling the Recycle
Bin on deletes: Your backup drive probably doesn't have a Recycle Bin
(or it's disabled), so the point is moot.

Frank Slootweg wrote:

> VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
>
>> Your backup program should be doing permanent deletes when backups
>> exceed their retention period.
>
> The backup software just does file deletes, that's it. For normal
> storage - i.e. HDD, SDD, etc. - that's all there's to it. For those
> devices, there no such thing as a "permanent delete". (Does *Windows*
> have a "permanent delete" (normal) system/library call? Yes, *File
> Explorer* has a "permanent delete" function, but we're not talking
> about FE functionality, we're talking about a (backup) program making
> normal system/library calls.)

I know of the one methods the OP mentioned: Shift+Del bypasses the
/move/ to the Recycle Bin hence a permanent delete (although undelete
tools may still recover the file).

In an online search, I found:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/api/microsoft.visualbasic.fileio.filesystem.deletefile?view=net-6.0

That's an example in one programming language (VisualBasic). To delete
the file (no Recycle Bin), you'd call DeleteFile(<filespec>). To move
the file to the Recycle Bin, you'd call
DeleteFile(<filespec>,<uioption>,FileIO.RecycleOption.SendToRecycleBin).

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/fileapi/nf-fileapi-deletefilea

I saw no argument in the DeleteFileA or DeleteFileW functions to specify
if the Recycle Bin was involved or not. However, these functions may
effect a permament delete. I think the SHFileOperation() is used to
"delete by moving to Recycle Bin".

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/shellapi/nf-shellapi-shfileoperationa
When used to delete a file, SHFileOperation permanently deletes the
file unless you set the FOF_ALLOWUNDO flag in the fFlags member of the
SHFILEOPSTRUCT structure pointed to by lpFileOp. Setting that flag
sends the file to the Recycle Bin. If you want to simply delete a file
and guarantee that it is not placed in the Recycle Bin, use
DeleteFile.

In another search hit:

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/12574113/permanently-delete-file-c

That mentions a remove() function in C. However, I'm not sure it
bypasses interception by the OS to deposit the file in the Recycle Bin.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/visualstudio/visual-studio-2010/1c3tczd6(v=vs.100)?redirectedfrom=MSDN

That delete the file from the file system. Doesn't seem like the
Recycle Bin would get involved. You're deleting the file from the file
system, not performing a copy to elsewhere. From the StackExchange
article:

_unlink("file.ext"); //delete file without sending to Recycle Bin

Seems ANY program can permanently delete a file, or choose to send it to
the Recycle Bin. Depends on how it is coded.

> ... my backup software (which is Cobian Backup).

I thought Cobian was just a coded frontend GUI to console-mode commands,
like VLC and many other video players are just GUI frontends to ffmpeg.
I can't look at it to tell, plus I don't use it, so I have no impetus to
dig into its code. There are no args to del or erase to toggle between
move to Recycle Bin or permanent delete. Cobian was closed source
starting in 2000, became open source in 2007, and went back to closed
source as of version 9. I don't know what the code in Cobian Backup
does to effect a file delete. The original author of Cobian Backup sold
the code to Sweeney back in 2014, and hasn't heard anything back from
Sweeney. The original Cobian Backup author moved to a new app called
Cobian Reflector also .NET based.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/api/system.io.file.delete?view=net-6.0

Recycle Bin isn't mentioned. The more I read code examples, a delete
function is a permanent delete unless some flag or attribute is used to
specify moving to the Recycle Bin. There is no safety net to a typical
delete() or remove() function, like mentioned here:

https://www.tutorialkart.com/c-programming/c-delete-file/

On 6/15/2022 4:24 PM, VanguardLH wrote:

> _unlink("file.ext"); //delete file without sending to Recycle Bin

If you want to study how a particular backup product works,
you can do a Process Monitor trace of the whole thing.

I've done that, but it isn't pretty. It's only feasible when
you know time-wise, the "event" you're looking for is early in
the trace, or late in the trace. The trace file is HUGE.

And modern versions of Process Monitor SUCK. They've ruined
it, and it can be very very slow now.

But at least in principle, you can see the operation primitive
issued by the client computer. The NAS may interpret something
sent to it, in a different way than the client intended.

Paul

Paul wrote:

> On 6/15/2022 4:24 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> _unlink("file.ext"); //delete file without sending to Recycle Bin
>
> If you want to study how a particular backup product works,
> you can do a Process Monitor trace of the whole thing.
>
> I've done that, but it isn't pretty. It's only feasible when
> you know time-wise, the "event" you're looking for is early in
> the trace, or late in the trace. The trace file is HUGE.
>
> And modern versions of Process Monitor SUCK. They've ruined
> it, and it can be very very slow now.
>
> But at least in principle, you can see the operation primitive
> issued by the client computer. The NAS may interpret something
> sent to it, in a different way than the client intended.

Unfortunately the filters are just views. If you select a file and just
want to see just writes on it, ProcMon is still recording EVERY event,
the filter just shows the write operations on the selected object. The
log doesn't change size. It doesn't get smaller because you want to see
writes only on one file. Everything is still recorded, and why the log
gets huge. It can get so huge that Procmon's updating of it can
severely slow the computer to a crawl. The longer you leave it running,
the more events its records (all events, not just those you selected).
You need to prep, start the recording right before loading the program,
record just long enough to possibly capture what you're trying to see,
and then turn off Procmon's logging. If you leave Procmon running,
eventually your computer gets so slow that it appears hung.

A NAS drive is just a networked drive running under an OS. The NAS box
has its own OS. Without details on which NAS drive is involved, no idea
what OS is running on it. If Linux, unlink() deletes the file, not move
to the Recycle Bin. But, as you say, depends on what the NAS' OS
decides to do on receiving a deleteFile action.

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
> > VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
> >
> >> Your backup program should be doing permanent deletes when backups
> >> exceed their retention period.
> >
> > The backup software just does file deletes, that's it. For normal
> > storage - i.e. HDD, SDD, etc. - that's all there's to it. For those
> > devices, there no such thing as a "permanent delete". (Does *Windows*
> > have a "permanent delete" (normal) system/library call? Yes, *File
> > Explorer* has a "permanent delete" function, but we're not talking
> > about FE functionality, we're talking about a (backup) program making
> > normal system/library calls.)
>
> I know of the one methods the OP mentioned: Shift+Del bypasses the
> /move/ to the Recycle Bin hence a permanent delete (although undelete
> tools may still recover the file).

Yes, but as I said. we're not discussing File Explorer, about a
(backup) program making normal system/library calls, so that (Shift+Del)
point is irrelevant. (FWIW, as I said before, I mainly use Shift+Del in
File Explorer.)

> In an online search, I found:

[...]

A very, very long story, which shows that a 'non-permanent delete' -
i.e. a move to the Recycle Bin - is the *exception*, not the rule, which
debunks your unfounded assumption that there's something wrong with 'my'
backup software (Cobain Backup) and debunks your argument that somehow
Macrium Reflect (Home) specifically bypasses the Recycle Bin [1].

But at least you also came to the conclusion that your original
premises were faulty (It would have been nice if you would have
acknowledged that. :-():

> The more I read code examples, a delete
> function is a permanent delete unless some flag or attribute is used to
> specify moving to the Recycle Bin. There is no safety net to a typical
> delete() or remove() function, like mentioned here:
>
> https://www.tutorialkart.com/c-programming/c-delete-file/

Bottom Line: Much Ado About Nothing, but sadly enough it wasn't a
comedy, but rather a tragedy.

[1] BTW, even if Macrium Reflect didn't do a 'permanent delete', i.e. a
very unlikely scenario, the deleted .mrimg files probably wouldn't end
up in the Recycle Bin anyway, because it's probably too small. AFAICT,
for big drives, the size of the Recycle Bin is only 5%, i.e. only 50GB
for a 1TB drive. (For small drives, the size seems to be 10%.)

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
[...]

> A NAS drive is just a networked drive running under an OS. The NAS box
> has its own OS. Without details on which NAS drive is involved, no idea
> what OS is running on it. If Linux, unlink() deletes the file, not move
> to the Recycle Bin. But, as you say, depends on what the NAS' OS
> decides to do on receiving a deleteFile action.

It's not so much the OS of the NAS which is relevant, but the
properties/features/<whatever> of the specific SMB server running on
that OS. I don't think that the presence/operation of a Recycle Bin in
a NAS share is defined in the SMB protocol.

As I only posted an anecdote, not a problem/question/<whatever> and
there are a multitude of NASes and other SMB servers, details of my NAS
are irrelevant.