Some news

<https://youtu.be/m49IcWd8zaY>

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> Some news
>
> <https://youtu.be/m49IcWd8zaY>

Very similar naming of the same product for FileLocator Lite and
Ransack. They first used Ransack, but wanted to market to enterprise
and pro users who didn't like "ransack" in a product title. So, they
just later released the same product under another name: FileLocator.
Ransack sounds bad. Locator is neutral.

K-9 and Thunderbird, on Android, will be the same app, but with
different names (and different Google Store IDs).

A problem I see for users of Thunderbid on Windows or Linux platforms is
the Android version doesn't do newsgroups, just e-mail. K-9 never did
Usenet. Neither will Thunderbird for Android.

You're using Thunderbird here to add your post. You won't be doing
Usenet on Android using either K-9 or Thunderbird there. Just e-mail.
Since Thunderbird for Android was built from K-9, there's no chance of
migration NNTP code from Thunderbird desktop to Thunderbird mobile.
They'd have to write up a whole new NNTP client on Android. Considering
the tendency of Mozilla to drop NNTP from Thunderbird desktop, I doubt
Mozilla will ever slice out a separate NNTP client for desktop or
mobile.

On 4/2/24 05:49 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> Considering
> the tendency of Mozilla to drop NNTP from Thunderbird desktop
Why do you say this, I've seen nothing about any intent to do this?
--
Linux Mint 21.3 Cinnamon 6.0.4 Kernel 6.5.0-26-generic
Al

Big Al <alan@invalid.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> Considering the tendency of Mozilla to drop NNTP from Thunderbird
>> desktop
>
> Why do you say this, I've seen nothing about any intent to do this?

Many years of watching, and forming an opinion of where Mozilla focuses
their resources (more on e-mail than NNTP). For example, how is the
Cards view (instead of Table) conducive to following threads in Usenet?
The effort was to add a whole new presentation (view) intended for
e-mail, not newsgroups.

How is Sync and Account Hub (still in development) relevant to Usenet?

How is adding Rust (to later support Exchange) have anything to do with
Usenet?

How is the integration of Firefox Translate that only works on e-mail
supposed to assist in non-native language newsgroups?

I participate in Usenet, as do many others, but only the dumb would
refuse to acknowledge the number of participants is WAY down. Usenet is
way past its hayday, and will diminish further to just a dribble of what
it was. Why support little used functionality?

Is the K-9 Android app that only does e-mail, and the Thunderbird app
that came from K-9 that also has no NNTP support, going to later get new
code (can't migrate code from the desktop programs) to add newsgroups
support? Highly unlikely. Their presence on Android omits NNTP, and
they'll eventually meld desktop and mobile platforms to be similar.

When you read their blogs or roadmap regarding dev, like:

https://blog.thunderbird.net/2023/02/the-future-of-thunderbird-why-were-rebuilding-from-the-ground-up/
https://developer.thunderbird.net/planning/roadmap

there is mention of e-mail, but not newsgroups or Usenet.

The changes they make to better their e-mail client and its UI have
coincidental effect on use of newsgroups, but not intentional effect.
Their rebuilding from new code to improve their e-mail client, not to
build a better Usenet client.

VanguardLH wrote:
> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>
>> Some news
>> <https://youtu.be/m49IcWd8zaY>
[..snip..]
> A problem I see for users of Thunderbid on Windows or Linux platforms is
> the Android version doesn't do newsgroups, just e-mail. K-9 never did
> Usenet. Neither will Thunderbird for Android.

Take into account that newsgroups (usenet, NNTP) are a leftover of the 80s
and 90s. Most people today use forums or messengers for that purpose.
Reddit, Facebook, Signal, Threema, dedicated forums all around the net, you
name it..

Especially the generation which grew up with smartphones and tablets doesn't
even know or care about "the usenet".
Whereas e-mail is a really well established form of communication, still today.
Even if you *only* use your e-mail address to log in to your personal accounts
somewhere or get notifications from there.

IMO it makes no sense to bloat the code of an existing and working mail
client like K-9 with NNTP functionality, which probably 0.5 - 1% of the
existing or targeted user base would /really/ use. That would be additional
code you have to maintain with a risk for more bugs in the whole client.

Additionally today's smartphone (Andriod-, IPhone-) are used to have different
dedicated "apps" for everything. Many of them would get irritated if their
"mail app" gets updated and suddenly has a "newsgroup function".

> You're using Thunderbird here to add your post. You won't be doing
> Usenet on Android using either K-9 or Thunderbird there. Just e-mail.

So what "problem" do you see for users on Windows or Linux platforms?

> Since Thunderbird for Android was built from K-9, there's no chance of
> migration NNTP code from Thunderbird desktop to Thunderbird mobile.
> They'd have to write up a whole new NNTP client on Android. Considering
> the tendency of Mozilla to drop NNTP from Thunderbird desktop, I doubt
> Mozilla will ever slice out a separate NNTP client for desktop or
> mobile.

They never ever would do that. Too much work for too little reward.

Big Al wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> Considering
>> the tendency of Mozilla to drop NNTP from Thunderbird desktop
>
> Why do you say this, I've seen nothing about any intent to do this?

I also don't see desktop TB dropping news support, after all they
'recently' re-implemented the NNTP client in JS and dropped the C/C++
version.

VanguardLH wrote:

> Is the K-9 Android app that only does e-mail, and the Thunderbird app
> that came from K-9 that also has no NNTP support, going to later get new
> code (can't migrate code from the desktop programs) to add newsgroups
> support? Highly unlikely.

I do agree with you there, I stopped looking for a news client for
android years ago, you see plenty of people ask for one, but the answers
are usually "don't bother", now I think usenet doesn't really belong in
ymy pocket.

Frank Miller <miller@posteo.ee> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Some news
>>> <https://youtu.be/m49IcWd8zaY>
> [..snip..]
>> A problem I see for users of Thunderbid on Windows or Linux platforms is
>> the Android version doesn't do newsgroups, just e-mail. K-9 never did
>> Usenet. Neither will Thunderbird for Android.
>
> Take into account that newsgroups (usenet, NNTP) are a leftover of the 80s
> and 90s. Most people today use forums or messengers for that purpose.
> Reddit, Facebook, Signal, Threema, dedicated forums all around the net, you
> name it..
>
> Especially the generation which grew up with smartphones and tablets doesn't
> even know or care about "the usenet".
> Whereas e-mail is a really well established form of communication, still today.
> Even if you *only* use your e-mail address to log in to your personal accounts
> somewhere or get notifications from there.
>
> IMO it makes no sense to bloat the code of an existing and working mail
> client like K-9 with NNTP functionality, which probably 0.5 - 1% of the
> existing or targeted user base would /really/ use. That would be additional
> code you have to maintain with a risk for more bugs in the whole client.
>
> Additionally today's smartphone (Andriod-, IPhone-) are used to have different
> dedicated "apps" for everything. Many of them would get irritated if their
> "mail app" gets updated and suddenly has a "newsgroup function".
>
>> You're using Thunderbird here to add your post. You won't be doing
>> Usenet on Android using either K-9 or Thunderbird there. Just e-mail.
>
> So what "problem" do you see for users on Windows or Linux platforms?
>
>> Since Thunderbird for Android was built from K-9, there's no chance of
>> migration NNTP code from Thunderbird desktop to Thunderbird mobile.
>> They'd have to write up a whole new NNTP client on Android. Considering
>> the tendency of Mozilla to drop NNTP from Thunderbird desktop, I doubt
>> Mozilla will ever slice out a separate NNTP client for desktop or
>> mobile.
>
> They never ever would do that. Too much work for too little reward.

The same arguments about reduced Usenet userbase on desktop platforms is
also reason for dropping Usenet in the desktop clients. Little use,
little gain, diffusion of purpose, and mobile platforms taking over the
role of desktops except for extreme performance, but then Usenet doesn't
need the performance of a desktop platform that can do video games.

On 4/3/2024 4:19 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> Is the K-9 Android app that only does e-mail, and the Thunderbird app
>> that came from K-9 that also has no NNTP support, going to later get new
>> code (can't migrate code from the desktop programs) to add newsgroups
>> support?  Highly unlikely.
>
> I do agree with you there, I stopped looking for a news client for
> android years ago, you see plenty of people ask for one, but the answers
> are usually "don't bother", now I think usenet doesn't really belong in
> ymy pocket.
>

I think usenet could be a great additional network for people to have in
their pocket. Unfortunately so far noone has come up with a good client
for it.
Well, that is besides NZB downloaders it seems, which all don't even do
discussions from what I have seen.

Dave Royal wrote:

> Andy Burns Wrote in message:
>
>> Some news
>>
>> <https://youtu.be/m49IcWd8zaY>
>
> Would there be any disadvantages from anyone's point of view - K9
> users, future users of the proposed Android TB app, Thunderbird
> the organisation - of _never_ merging the two apps?
>
> What does Thunderbird gain by doing so?

When you create an android app, it has a signing certificate, I don't
think you can associate it with a different app, so K-9 can never
release an upgrade that makes it become TB for Android ... something
like that, I've never played with this stuff.

On Wed, 3 Apr 2024 18:23:12 +0100 (GMT+01:00), Dave Royal wrote:
>
> Would there be any disadvantages from anyone's point of view - K9
> users, future users of the proposed Android TB app, Thunderbird
> the organisation - of _never_ merging the two apps?

There is _no_ proposal to first develop an Android TB app on its own
and afterwards *merge* that proposed app with K9.

Their plan is that once K9 reaches a certain level of functionality,
K9 will be *renamed* to Thunderbird. See reference [1].

So, it is not clear what "never merge" actually means:

 (a)  Not add functionality to K9 which users want, such as these?
         *  OAuth2
         *  Message filters
         *  Improved account set-up with auto-configuration

 (b)  Add the functionality but just not rename K9?

If you mean (a), you are too late on OAuth2. See reference [2].
If you mean (b), I am with Shakespeare on this one.

____
REFERENCES

[1] <https://k9mail.app/2022/06/13/K-9-Mail-and-Thunderbird>
[2] <https://www.ghacks.net/2022/07/08/k-9-mail-future-thunderbird-for-android-adds-oauth-2-0-support/>

--
Kind regards
Ralph Fox
🦊

What’s in a name? That which we call a Rose,
By any other word would smell as sweete,

Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote:

> My question is - why not keep it permanently? What does anybody
> gain by changing its name to Thunderbird?

Brand recognition. Possibly corporate IT is more conducive to helping
their employees with their company-issued phones on something known. K9
isn't a well-known product brand.

On 04.04.2024 05:49, VanguardLH wrote:
> Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote:
>
>> My question is - why not keep it permanently? What does anybody
>> gain by changing its name to Thunderbird?
>
> Brand recognition. Possibly corporate IT is more conducive to helping
> their employees with their company-issued phones on something known. K9
> isn't a well-known product brand.

*LOL*

--
"Ave Caesar! Morituri te salutant!"

On 04.04.2024 08:44, Dave Royal wrote:
> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> Wrote in message:
>
>> Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote:
>>
>>> My question is - why not keep it permanently? What does anybody
>>> gain by changing its name to Thunderbird?
>>
>> Brand recognition. Possibly corporate IT is more conducive to helping
>> their employees with their company-issued phones on something known. K9
>> isn't a well-known product brand.
>
> In which case 'corporate IT' would require their employees to use
> the Thunderbird version on Android. It isn't an argument for
> disturbing K9 users - for whom I'd guess Thunderbird has zero
> brand recognition.

Nonsense: I use both for many many years.

--
"Ave Caesar! Morituri te salutant!"

On 04.04.2024 09:07, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> On 04.04.2024 08:44, Dave Royal wrote:
>> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> Wrote in message:
>>
>>> Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My question is - why not keep it permanently? What does anybody
>>>> gain by changing its name to Thunderbird?
>>>
>>> Brand recognition. Possibly corporate IT is more conducive to helping
>>> their employees with their company-issued phones on something known. K9
>>> isn't a well-known product brand.
>>
>> In which case 'corporate IT' would require their employees to use
>> the Thunderbird version on Android. It isn't an argument for
>> disturbing K9 users - for whom I'd guess Thunderbird has zero
>> brand recognition.
>
> Nonsense: I use both for many many years.

Like millions btw.

--
"Ave Caesar! Morituri te salutant!"

Am 04.04.24 um 09:44 schrieb Dave Royal:
> Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> Wrote in message:
>
>> On 04.04.2024 09:07, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> On 04.04.2024 08:44, Dave Royal wrote:
>>>> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> Wrote in message:
>>>>
>>>>> Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> My question is - why not keep it permanently? What does anybody
>>>>>> gain by changing its name to Thunderbird?
>>>>>
>>>>> Brand recognition. Possibly corporate IT is more conducive to helping
>>>>> their employees with their company-issued phones on something known. K9
>>>>> isn't a well-known product brand.
>>>>
>>>> In which case 'corporate IT' would require their employees to use
>>>> the Thunderbird version on Android. It isn't an argument for
>>>> disturbing K9 users - for whom I'd guess Thunderbird has zero
>>>> brand recognition.
>>>
>>> Nonsense: I use both for many many years.
>>
>> Like millions btw.
>
> OK, not zero, but small - maybe 2%? My point us that, among K9
> users, Thunderbird is not a 'well-known brand'. They're as likely
> to resent being 'rebranded' as to welcome it.

And that means exactly what?
And where do you get the 2% from? My bet is: Almost 50%. It is by far
the most widely known e-mail-client besides Gmail on Android.

Every child knows the K-9s. It is much the stronger brand than TB on
Android.

--
"Gutta cavat lapidem." (Ovid)

On 4/4/2024 9:44 AM, Dave Royal wrote:
> Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> Wrote in message:
>
>> On 04.04.2024 09:07, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> On 04.04.2024 08:44, Dave Royal wrote:
>>>> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> Wrote in message:
>>>>
>>>>> Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> My question is - why not keep it permanently? What does anybody
>>>>>> gain by changing its name to Thunderbird?
>>>>>
>>>>> Brand recognition. Possibly corporate IT is more conducive to helping
>>>>> their employees with their company-issued phones on something known. K9
>>>>> isn't a well-known product brand.
>>>>
>>>> In which case 'corporate IT' would require their employees to use
>>>> the Thunderbird version on Android. It isn't an argument for
>>>> disturbing K9 users - for whom I'd guess Thunderbird has zero
>>>> brand recognition.
>>>
>>> Nonsense: I use both for many many years.
>>
>> Like millions btw.
>
> OK, not zero, but small - maybe 2%? My point us that, among K9
> users, Thunderbird is not a 'well-known brand'. They're as likely
> to resent being 'rebranded' as to welcome it.

Thunderbird is that well-known "like Firefox just as an email client and
who needs email clients by now when there's Outlook and Gmail" brand for
a lot of people

Dave Royal wrote:
> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> Wrote in message:
>
>> Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote:
>>
>>> My question is - why not keep it permanently? What does anybody
>>> gain by changing its name to Thunderbird?
>>
>> Brand recognition. Possibly corporate IT is more conducive to helping
>> their employees with their company-issued phones on something known. K9
>> isn't a well-known product brand.
>
> In which case 'corporate IT' would require their employees to use
> the Thunderbird version on Android. It isn't an argument for
> disturbing K9 users - for whom I'd guess Thunderbird has zero
> brand recognition.
>

I don't think it's so much corporate IT, so much as promoting to users
that are already familiar with Thunderbird on computers, but where the
apparent options on Android seem to be limited to the Gmail and Outlook
clients. It doesn't help (especially with Gmail) that it's not clear
that those are clients that can be used with any provider, rather than
being exclusively a tool to connect to services with the same name. Of
course, that's deliberate on the parts of Google and Microsoft.

In any case, for somebody that's familiar with the Thunderbird name on a
computer, the different name of "K-9" is unfamiliar, even if the product
itself mostly replicates Thunderbird's capacities. Thus, I think that
having a Thunderbird-branded product will be helpful for people already
familiar with Thunderbird on computers, that want to have a mail client
on their phones. That said, I don't think there's a compelling reason
to disrupt existing K-9 users with different branding.

Elsewhere in this thread, I noticed the mention of Agent Ransack and
FileLocator Pro, where the two are the same product with the same name,
and I think that a good case could be made for doing the same with K-9
and Thunderbird. What having both names does is to allow for
positioning to different audiences, rather than forcing one name or the
other on everybody.

Smith