In my settings page, I have the box for "When I mark messages as junk:"
checked, and then it's set to "Move them to the account's Junk folder"
This works as expected.
The box I have UNchecked is the "Mark messages determined to be Junk as
Read" This works fine for messages BBird determines as junk, but if I
click the junk icon in the top display it also treats it if it is read.
Additionally, I do have the logging enabled, and it ignores anything I
mark as junk, even though it does move it. It doesn't log that action.

I admit, I am still using 102.15.1 on this particular box. But I seem
to recall this didn't used to be this way. If I marked something as
junk, it did not treat it as having been read.

I am going to go to the 115 Supernova soon, and am wondering if this is
only happening on the 102 releases, or if it does the same on Supernova?
Also, if this is improper action, would this be considered a bug?

--
Stand With Israel!

sticks wrote:
> I do have the logging enabled, and it ignores anything I
> mark as junk, even though it does move it.  It doesn't log that action.
Does the log work for you at all?
In TB v115.x you have to enlarge the log window in order to see any
results within it ...

On 3/26/2024 12:56 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
> sticks wrote:
>
>> I do have the logging enabled, and it ignores anything I mark as junk,
>> even though it does move it.  It doesn't log that action.
>
> Does the log work for you at all?
>
> In TB v115.x you have to enlarge the log window in order to see any
> results within it ...

Everything appears in proper chronological order. It just doesn't
include anything I mark as junk.

--
Stand With Israel!

sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:

> In my settings page, I have the box for "When I mark messages as junk:"
> checked, and then it's set to "Move them to the account's Junk folder"
> This works as expected.
> The box I have UNchecked is the "Mark messages determined to be Junk as
> Read" This works fine for messages BBird determines as junk, but if I
> click the junk icon in the top display it also treats it if it is read.
> Additionally, I do have the logging enabled, and it ignores anything I
> mark as junk, even though it does move it. It doesn't log that action.
>
> I admit, I am still using 102.15.1 on this particular box. But I seem
> to recall this didn't used to be this way. If I marked something as
> junk, it did not treat it as having been read.
>
> I am going to go to the 115 Supernova soon, and am wondering if this is
> only happening on the 102 releases, or if it does the same on Supernova?
> Also, if this is improper action, would this be considered a bug?

I'm curious. When you mark a message a junk (to move to the Junk
folder), haven't you already read the message to know it was junk? Or
is your Tbird configured to not mark as read the messages that you read?

VanguardLH wrote:

> When you mark a message a junk (to move to the Junk
> folder), haven't you already read the message to know it was junk?

Very often I don't need to see anything other than the subject of a
message to know that it's spam (e.g. if I've received a dozen identical
messages about weight loss, snoring, joint pain etc the same day.

On 3/26/2024 4:36 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:
>
>> In my settings page, I have the box for "When I mark messages as junk:"
>> checked, and then it's set to "Move them to the account's Junk folder"
>> This works as expected.
>> The box I have UNchecked is the "Mark messages determined to be Junk as
>> Read" This works fine for messages BBird determines as junk, but if I
>> click the junk icon in the top display it also treats it if it is read.
>> Additionally, I do have the logging enabled, and it ignores anything I
>> mark as junk, even though it does move it. It doesn't log that action.
>>
>> I admit, I am still using 102.15.1 on this particular box. But I seem
>> to recall this didn't used to be this way. If I marked something as
>> junk, it did not treat it as having been read.
>>
>> I am going to go to the 115 Supernova soon, and am wondering if this is
>> only happening on the 102 releases, or if it does the same on Supernova?
>> Also, if this is improper action, would this be considered a bug?
>
> I'm curious. When you mark a message a junk (to move to the Junk
> folder), haven't you already read the message to know it was junk? Or
> is your Tbird configured to not mark as read the messages that you read?

No for either. In TBird, as I have it set up, the left side shows all
the accounts and folders in each account. The right side will show all
messages in each folder on the left once you click on a folder. They
appear as either read or unread.

There is a symbol/icon of some sort, don't know what it is called, that
identifies messages as junk. If you click the symbol up at the top you
can also sort your messages by junk status if you wish So no, I don't
care to read the junk message at all, and I don't see the message body.
If you do click on the message it opens up down below and the message
body appears. All I'm doing is clicking the junk icon. The settings
are specifically not set to mark it as read. Yet it does so. To me,
this is a bug.

--
Stand With Israel!

On 3/26/2024 4:47 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> When you mark a message a junk (to move to the Junk
>> folder), haven't you already read the message to know it was junk?
>
> Very often I don't need to see anything other than the subject of a
> message to know that it's spam (e.g. if I've received a dozen identical
> messages about weight loss, snoring, joint pain etc the same day.

Exactly, and I guess I should explain why I don't like this and it
matters. I have been keeping track of how many junk mails I get. The
junk folder shows the number of UNREAD junk items, as all the other
folders do. To get my daily count, I have to mark them as unread for
them to total properly. It ain't the end of the world, I just wish the
software would do as it says it will and save me the job of doing it.

--
Stand With Israel!

On 26/03/2024 21:56, sticks wrote:
> On 3/26/2024 4:47 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>
>>> When you mark a message a junk (to move to the Junk
>>> folder), haven't you already read the message to know it was junk?
>>
>> Very often I don't need to see anything other than the subject of a
>> message to know that it's spam (e.g. if I've received a dozen
>> identical messages about weight loss, snoring, joint pain etc the same
>> day.
>
> Exactly, and I guess I should explain why I don't like this and it
> matters.  I have been keeping track of how many junk mails I get.  The
> junk folder shows the number of UNREAD junk items, as all the other
> folders do.  To get my daily count, I have to mark them as unread for
> them to total properly.  It ain't the end of the world, I just wish the
> software would do as it says it will and save me the job of doing it.
>
>
Have you ticked the left pane option "Show total message count"?
Works the same for Junk as any other folder for me.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> When you mark a message a junk (to move to the Junk
>> folder), haven't you already read the message to know it was junk?
>
> Very often I don't need to see anything other than the subject of a
> message to know that it's spam (e.g. if I've received a dozen identical
> messages about weight loss, snoring, joint pain etc the same day.

Does Tbird have a layout that doesn't open to view the selected message,
but instead just displays a few lines of text of the selected message?
Or selecting a message does not open it in a preview pane (i.e., to see
a message means having to double click it in the headers pane)?

Won't selecting a message also view it? If so, how do you select a
message to mark as junk without also viewing it? Maybe if the read flag
had some very long delay before marking as read then you could select
and junk before the message got flagged as read.

To mark as junk, doesn't a message have to be selected even if only in
the messages header pane? To prevent the message from getting marked as
read when selected, maybe the "After displaying for N seconds" option
could be configured for longer.

If a selected message is not marked as read (it remains unread when
viewed), but moving it marks it as read, yeah, that seems a bug.

sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:

> On 3/26/2024 4:36 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
>> sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:
>>
>>> In my settings page, I have the box for "When I mark messages as junk:"
>>> checked, and then it's set to "Move them to the account's Junk folder"
>>> This works as expected.
>>> The box I have UNchecked is the "Mark messages determined to be Junk as
>>> Read" This works fine for messages BBird determines as junk, but if I
>>> click the junk icon in the top display it also treats it if it is read.
>>> Additionally, I do have the logging enabled, and it ignores anything I
>>> mark as junk, even though it does move it. It doesn't log that action.
>>>
>>> I admit, I am still using 102.15.1 on this particular box. But I seem
>>> to recall this didn't used to be this way. If I marked something as
>>> junk, it did not treat it as having been read.
>>>
>>> I am going to go to the 115 Supernova soon, and am wondering if this is
>>> only happening on the 102 releases, or if it does the same on Supernova?
>>> Also, if this is improper action, would this be considered a bug?
>>
>> I'm curious. When you mark a message a junk (to move to the Junk
>> folder), haven't you already read the message to know it was junk? Or
>> is your Tbird configured to not mark as read the messages that you read?
>
> No for either. In TBird, as I have it set up, the left side shows all
> the accounts and folders in each account. The right side will show all
> messages in each folder on the left once you click on a folder. They
> appear as either read or unread.
>
> There is a symbol/icon of some sort, don't know what it is called, that
> identifies messages as junk. If you click the symbol up at the top you
> can also sort your messages by junk status if you wish So no, I don't
> care to read the junk message at all, and I don't see the message body.
> If you do click on the message it opens up down below and the message
> body appears. All I'm doing is clicking the junk icon. The settings
> are specifically not set to mark it as read. Yet it does so. To me,
> this is a bug.

Some messages are shown as Junk in the Inbox (the flame icon appears in
the row for a message in the Junk column), but you don't move them
automatically to the Junk folder (Junk settings, "Move new junk" is not
enabled)? You don't want Tbird's junk filtering to automatically move
suspect junk to Junk?

Or is it false negatives (missed spam) in your Inbox that you want to
flag as spam an move to Junk ("When I mark messages as junk: Move them
to account's "Junk" folder" option)? Is the "Mark messages determined
to be Junk as read" option disabled or enabled?

If you just have the folders and messages list panes, you would have to
use arrow keys to select a message to use Enter to open it to view, or
double-click a message with the mouse, right? I get rare few spams, so
I want to make easy viewing my prevalently good messages. However, for
someone whose Inbox gets deluged with spam, yeah, I can see not wanting
to view any message until I choose to open it.

On 3/26/2024 5:19 PM, MikeS wrote:
> On 26/03/2024 21:56, sticks wrote:
>> On 3/26/2024 4:47 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>>
>>>> When you mark a message a junk (to move to the Junk
>>>> folder), haven't you already read the message to know it was junk?
>>>
>>> Very often I don't need to see anything other than the subject of a
>>> message to know that it's spam (e.g. if I've received a dozen
>>> identical messages about weight loss, snoring, joint pain etc the
>>> same day.
>>
>> Exactly, and I guess I should explain why I don't like this and it
>> matters.  I have been keeping track of how many junk mails I get.  The
>> junk folder shows the number of UNREAD junk items, as all the other
>> folders do.  To get my daily count, I have to mark them as unread for
>> them to total properly.  It ain't the end of the world, I just wish
>> the software would do as it says it will and save me the job of doing it.
>>
>>
> Have you ticked the left pane option "Show total message count"?
> Works the same for Junk as any other folder for me.

Are you in version 115? In 102 all I see is an option to show the count
of either read or unread messages. If this worked on the individual
folder I could live with it, as long as it isn't a Global setting
affecting all other folders.

--
Stand With Israel!

On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 17:23:46 -0500, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

>Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>
>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>
>>> When you mark a message a junk (to move to the Junk
>>> folder), haven't you already read the message to know it was junk?
>>
>> Very often I don't need to see anything other than the subject of a
>> message to know that it's spam (e.g. if I've received a dozen identical
>> messages about weight loss, snoring, joint pain etc the same day.
>
>Does Tbird have a layout that doesn't open to view the selected message,
>but instead just displays a few lines of text of the selected message?

Shirley as a user you would know the answer to that?

On 3/26/2024 5:49 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> Some messages are shown as Junk in the Inbox (the flame icon appears in
> the row for a message in the Junk column), but you don't move them
> automatically to the Junk folder (Junk settings, "Move new junk" is not
> enabled)? You don't want Tbird's junk filtering to automatically move
> suspect junk to Junk?

No, if they get marked as junk from the client, which has learning
enabled and does work, they get shipped to junk as unread. You can
click the settings box to have them marked as read in the move, but as I
said, that box is unchecked. Therein lies the problem for me.

> Or is it false negatives (missed spam) in your Inbox that you want to
> flag as spam an move to Junk ("When I mark messages as junk: Move them
> to account's "Junk" folder" option)? Is the "Mark messages determined
> to be Junk as read" option disabled or enabled?

Yes, it is messages in my inbox folder that I click on the junk icon
that move, but get turned into read messages, even though I have never
seen the body of the messages and have the settings box checked to not
mark them as read.

> If you just have the folders and messages list panes, you would have to
> use arrow keys to select a message to use Enter to open it to view, or
> double-click a message with the mouse, right?

In TBird, once you click on a folder in the folder pane, all the
messages. read and unread, are displayed in the message list pane. Junk
Status is one of about 22 options you can have displayed. The body of a
message does not appear until you actually click on one of the messages.

The more I think about it, it appears the logic must be that clicking on
any portion of the message in the message list pane means the page is
being read and will open. When you mouse over the messages, the entire
line turns a gray color letting you know you are about to do something
to that message. As it immediately also recognizes it as junk, it
simply doesn't open the message below in the reading page, but moves it.
As far as the settings page and leaving the box unchecked as to marking
them read if they are spam, I can see how that only applies to the
actions of the client. I might not like it and wish it worked
otherwise, but it appears that simply isn't the case.

The only thing left to do is see if it works this way in Supernova too.

--
Stand With Israel!

sticks wrote:
> Are you in version 115?  In 102 all I see is an option to show the count
> of either read or unread messages.
In order to enable the total count, you first need to enable folder
header pane under view/folders
Once that us done, click the ellipsis that comes after the cloud icon
and +new message items
From there you can enable show total message count, and hide the folder
pane header again.
> If this worked on the individual
> folder I could live with it, as long as it isn't a Global setting
> affecting all other folders.
It's global.

Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 17:23:46 -0500, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>
>>Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>>
>>>> When you mark a message a junk (to move to the Junk
>>>> folder), haven't you already read the message to know it was junk?
>>>
>>> Very often I don't need to see anything other than the subject of a
>>> message to know that it's spam (e.g. if I've received a dozen identical
>>> messages about weight loss, snoring, joint pain etc the same day.
>>
>>Does Tbird have a layout that doesn't open to view the selected message,
>>but instead just displays a few lines of text of the selected message?
>
> Shirley as a user you would know the answer to that?

Oh, you don't know, either.

sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:

> On 3/26/2024 5:49 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
>> Some messages are shown as Junk in the Inbox (the flame icon appears in
>> the row for a message in the Junk column), but you don't move them
>> automatically to the Junk folder (Junk settings, "Move new junk" is not
>> enabled)? You don't want Tbird's junk filtering to automatically move
>> suspect junk to Junk?
>
> No, if they get marked as junk from the client, which has learning
> enabled and does work, they get shipped to junk as unread. You can
> click the settings box to have them marked as read in the move, but as I
> said, that box is unchecked. Therein lies the problem for me.
>
>> Or is it false negatives (missed spam) in your Inbox that you want to
>> flag as spam an move to Junk ("When I mark messages as junk: Move them
>> to account's "Junk" folder" option)? Is the "Mark messages determined
>> to be Junk as read" option disabled or enabled?
>
> Yes, it is messages in my inbox folder that I click on the junk icon
> that move, but get turned into read messages, even though I have never
> seen the body of the messages and have the settings box checked to not
> mark them as read.
>
>> If you just have the folders and messages list panes, you would have to
>> use arrow keys to select a message to use Enter to open it to view, or
>> double-click a message with the mouse, right?
>
> In TBird, once you click on a folder in the folder pane, all the
> messages. read and unread, are displayed in the message list pane.

So you do have a [pre]view pane. Preview is a misnomer. The preview
pane opens the message. You have opened the message, and viewing it,
not previewing it. When you select a message in the list pane, the
message opens in the preview pane. It gets marked after the delay
configured in the client. I have mine marked immediately when opened.
Some prefer to wait 5 seconds, or more.

> Junk Status is one of about 22 options you can have displayed. The
> body of a message does not appear until you actually click on one of
> the messages.

Which opens the messages, so it has been read (until after the
configured delay).

> The more I think about it, it appears the logic must be that clicking on
> any portion of the message in the message list pane means the page is
> being read and will open. When you mouse over the messages, the entire
> line turns a gray color letting you know you are about to do something
> to that message. As it immediately also recognizes it as junk, it
> simply doesn't open the message below in the reading page, but moves it.

Seems for protection that they won't show (open) the spam-flagged
message. Some clients will show the content, but any hyperlinks are
disabled until the message is unflagged, or moved out of the Junk folder
back into the Inbox.

For safety, they don't show the suspect message in the view pane. You
don't get to read it, by default. But Tbird considered the message
opened, so it's been read. It was hidden to you yet viewed (but hidden)
by Tbird. I remember seeing something else about Tbird where messages
were loaded in another tab, but the tab was not selected for the user to
view the message, but Tbird considered loading the message in the
as-yet-to-be-viewed tab as read. This is somewhat akin to how tabs
work, by default, in Firefox and Chrome. You click on a hyperlink, a
tab opens to load the web page, but focus is not changed to the newly
opened tab. The tab was created, the page loaded there, but you don't
get to see it until you select the tab. I dislike that behavior, and
have Firefox focus to a newly opened tab when it gets created. I want
to see what is at the hyperlink when I click on it.

Odd that what Tbird flags as spam isn't also automatically moved into
the Junk folder, but left to pollute your Inbox. The flagged message
should get moved to the Junk folder without you having to click on the
message in your Inbox to then have it treated as spam. You should not
have to do anything to get Tbird-flagged spam moved into Junk unless
junk options are configured not to move spam-flagged items.

> As far as the settings page and leaving the box unchecked as to marking
> them read if they are spam, I can see how that only applies to the
> actions of the client.

If the server-side filtering moves a new message into the Junk folder in
your online account, your client will get it in its Junk folder.
Tbird's junk filtering only works on new messages in the Inbox that it
thinks are spam, Any spam your client gets in the Inbox are those
either missed by the server-side filtering, or Tbird's Bayesian guess on
spam/ham rating was after received into Tbird. Tbird's junk filtering
has no effect on how the server-side filtering works. By the time a
client syncs to the account, the server has already decided where to put
new messages.

On 26/03/2024 17:50, sticks wrote:
> In my settings page, I have the box for "When I mark messages as junk:"
> checked, and then it's set to "Move them to the account's Junk folder"
> This works as expected.
> The box I have UNchecked is the "Mark messages determined to be Junk as
> Read" This works fine for messages BBird determines as junk, but if I
> click the junk icon in the top display it also treats it if it is read.
> Additionally, I do have the logging enabled, and it ignores anything I
> mark as junk, even though it does move it. It doesn't log that action.
>
> I admit, I am still using 102.15.1 on this particular box. But I seem
> to recall this didn't used to be this way. If I marked something as
> junk, it did not treat it as having been read.
>
> I am going to go to the 115 Supernova soon, and am wondering if this is
> only happening on the 102 releases, or if it does the same on Supernova?
> Also, if this is improper action, would this be considered a bug?

I've no idea if this is relevant to your issue or not.

A couple of years ago I had an problem with TB displaying junk folder
messages. To cut a long story short, it was the way that that particular
IMAP email server dealt with junk messages /before/ they reached TB, as
that email account was webmail-based. There were junk rules for the
webmail server which confused the way that TB showed them in its "junk"
folder.

--

Jeff

On 3/27/2024 5:44 AM, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 26/03/2024 17:50, sticks wrote:
>> In my settings page, I have the box for "When I mark messages as junk:"
>> checked, and then it's set to "Move them to the account's Junk folder"
>> This works as expected.
>> The box I have UNchecked is the "Mark messages determined to be Junk as
>> Read"  This works fine for messages BBird determines as junk, but if I
>> click the junk icon in the top display it also treats it if it is read.
>> Additionally, I do have the logging enabled, and it ignores anything I
>> mark as junk, even though it does move it.  It doesn't log that action.
>>
>> I admit, I am still using 102.15.1 on this particular box.  But I seem
>> to recall this didn't used to be this way.  If I marked something as
>> junk, it did not treat it as having been read.
>>
>> I am going to go to the 115 Supernova soon, and am wondering if this is
>> only happening on the 102 releases, or if it does the same on Supernova?
>> Also, if this is improper action, would this be considered a bug?
>
> I've no idea if this is relevant to your issue or not.
>
> A couple of years ago I had an problem with TB displaying junk folder
> messages. To cut a long story short, it was the way that that particular
> IMAP email server dealt with junk messages /before/ they reached TB, as
> that email account was webmail-based. There were junk rules for the
> webmail server which confused the way that TB showed them in its "junk"
> folder.

I've had to completely turn off detection on the server side. Charter
is my ISP and they give many false positives, and their filter rules
simply do not work.

--
Stand With Israel!

On 3/26/2024 9:39 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
> sticks wrote:
>
>> Are you in version 115?  In 102 all I see is an option to show the
>> count of either read or unread messages.
>
> In order to enable the total count, you first need to enable folder
> header pane under view/folders
>
> Once that us done, click the ellipsis that comes after the cloud icon
> and +new message items

I must admit, I did enable folder header pane as suggested, but don't
seem to see the new message items option.

> From there you can enable show total message count, and hide the folder
> pane header again.
>
>> If this worked on the individual folder I could live with it, as long
>> as it isn't a Global setting affecting all other folders.
>
> It's global.

That would not work for me then. I only want to see the counts of
folders that have unread messages.

--
Stand With Israel!

On 3/26/2024 7:02 PM, sticks wrote:
>
> The more I think about it, it appears the logic must be that clicking on
> any portion of the message in the message list pane means the page is
> being read and will open.  When you mouse over the messages, the entire
> line turns a gray color letting you know you are about to do something
> to that message.  As it immediately also recognizes it as junk, it
> simply doesn't open the message below in the reading page, but moves it.
> As far as the settings page and leaving the box unchecked as to marking
> them read if they are spam, I can see how that only applies to the
> actions of the client.  I might not like it and wish it worked
> otherwise, but it appears that simply isn't the case.

I discovered this morning that what I said above isn't entirely true
either. There is an option to mark a message as "Starred" by clicking
on the star icon in the same line. Doing that does NOT mark the message
as read.

I guess I'll look around in the config file and see if there are any
options to change the mark as junk behavior.

--
Stand With Israel!

On 3/27/2024 10:06 AM, sticks wrote:
> On 3/26/2024 7:02 PM, sticks wrote:
>>
>> The more I think about it, it appears the logic must be that clicking
>> on any portion of the message in the message list pane means the page
>> is being read and will open.  When you mouse over the messages, the
>> entire line turns a gray color letting you know you are about to do
>> something to that message.  As it immediately also recognizes it as
>> junk, it simply doesn't open the message below in the reading page,
>> but moves it.
>> As far as the settings page and leaving the box unchecked as to
>> marking them read if they are spam, I can see how that only applies to
>> the actions of the client.  I might not like it and wish it worked
>> otherwise, but it appears that simply isn't the case.
>
> I discovered this morning that what I said above isn't entirely true
> either.  There is an option to mark a message as "Starred" by clicking
> on the star icon in the same line.  Doing that does NOT mark the message
> as read.
>
> I guess I'll look around in the config file and see if there are any
> options to change the mark as junk behavior.

Wish I would have just looked into the config editor in the first place.
There is an entry "mailnews.ui.junk.manualMarkAsJunkMarksRead" which
was set to true. Toggling it to false did the trick and now clicking on
the junk icon does indeed place it in the Junk folder and leaves it as
unread! Problem fixed!

--
Stand With Israel!

sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:

> mailnews.ui.junk.manualMarkAsJunkMarksRead

Lots and LOTS of settings in Tbird. I found a list at:

http://kb.mozillazine.org/Mail_and_news_settings

which mentions the mailnews.ui.junk.manualMarkAsJunkMarksRead setting.
However, they stopped updating their info pages over 2 years ago. Old
settings are listed, but newer ones may be missing.

On 3/27/2024 10:05 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:
>
>> mailnews.ui.junk.manualMarkAsJunkMarksRead
>
> Lots and LOTS of settings in Tbird. I found a list at:
>
> http://kb.mozillazine.org/Mail_and_news_settings
>
> which mentions the mailnews.ui.junk.manualMarkAsJunkMarksRead setting.
> However, they stopped updating their info pages over 2 years ago. Old
> settings are listed, but newer ones may be missing.

Fortunately, the editor has a search box you can supply keywords. In
this case I searched for "junk" and this one popped up. I wish I had
gone there first, instead of last.

--
Stand With Israel!