It seems Gmail is decomissioning username-password authentication.
Clients will have to use "Sign in with Google". What happens to all
download-email programs? I'm looking for one, in fact. If I want to
pull my mail via POP or IMAP today, what would I have to use?

I'd like to read my mail with Gnus (using djb's Maildir storage). I
can't stand Gmail any longer. I'm done.

(*) Other questions

This ``Sign In with Google'' means the downloader would always have to
ask me for passwords? I could never just pull gmail without being asked
for credentials? (Very annoying.)

Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:

> It seems Gmail is decomissioning username-password authentication.
> Clients will have to use "Sign in with Google". What happens to all
> download-email programs? I'm looking for one, in fact. If I want to
> pull my mail via POP or IMAP today, what would I have to use?
>
> I'd like to read my mail with Gnus (using djb's Maildir storage). I
> can't stand Gmail any longer. I'm done.
>
> (*) Other questions
>
> This ``Sign In with Google'' means the downloader would always have to
> ask me for passwords? I could never just pull gmail without being asked
> for credentials? (Very annoying.)

Here's another option I might have. I could just forward my Gmail
e-mail to another mailbox and then pull my email from this other
mailbox. But this other mailbox would have to allow me some easy
authentication and also let me SMTP-send mail from it.

I don't have an SMTP server myself. To do that with, say, Proton Mail,
I'd have to buy an account because there seems to be no IMAP access to
it without a paid account.

If I were to host my own mail, I suppose I should use it to just get
mail from Gmail and not use it to send mail out to the world because I
can't devote my life to SMTP deliveries right now. So I'd need a way to
SMTP-send mail out through Gmail somehow. (I wonder if that's possible
still.)

Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:

> Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
>
>> It seems Gmail is decomissioning username-password authentication.
>> Clients will have to use "Sign in with Google". What happens to all
>> download-email programs? I'm looking for one, in fact. If I want to
>> pull my mail via POP or IMAP today, what would I have to use?
>>
>> I'd like to read my mail with Gnus (using djb's Maildir storage). I
>> can't stand Gmail any longer. I'm done.
>>
>> (*) Other questions
>>
>> This ``Sign In with Google'' means the downloader would always have to
>> ask me for passwords? I could never just pull gmail without being asked
>> for credentials? (Very annoying.)
>
> Here's another option I might have. I could just forward my Gmail
> e-mail to another mailbox and then pull my email from this other
> mailbox. But this other mailbox would have to allow me some easy
> authentication and also let me SMTP-send mail from it.

How do you access the net? Whatever company is providing your IP
address or handing you one each time you connect should have an SMTP
server on their system. Such a server shoud recognize your IP address
as "one of ours" and allow you to connect and send mail.

I do my mail through a surviving mom 'n pop ISP but I connect through a
major telecom company. If the local ISP is down (it suffers from the
same power outages I do) I can swap in a different set of config
files, restart sendmail, and send via the corporate SMTP server. My
local ISP requires me to use TLS and AUTH on port 587 as I appear to
it to be "foreign" but the corporate server apparently sees me as "one
of ours" and accepts SMTP on port 25 as usual. (This doesn't help with
receiving mail when the local ISP is down, of course.)

FWIW, I've never used Gmail because I dread the kind of thing you're
encountering -- hacking a corporate interface -- far more than I do
the task of hacking sendmail (which is, as they say, marginally above
my pay grade. :-)

> I don't have an SMTP server myself. To do that with, say, Proton Mail,
> I'd have to buy an account because there seems to be no IMAP access to
> it without a paid account.
>
> If I were to host my own mail, I suppose I should use it to just get
> mail from Gmail and not use it to send mail out to the world because I
> can't devote my life to SMTP deliveries right now. So I'd need a way to
> SMTP-send mail out through Gmail somehow. (I wonder if that's possible
> still.)

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

In comp.misc Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
> Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
>> Here's another option I might have. I could just forward my Gmail
>> e-mail to another mailbox and then pull my email from this other
>> mailbox. But this other mailbox would have to allow me some easy
>> authentication and also let me SMTP-send mail from it.
>
> How do you access the net? Whatever company is providing your IP
> address or handing you one each time you connect should have an SMTP
> server on their system. Such a server shoud recognize your IP address
> as "one of ours" and allow you to connect and send mail.
>
> I do my mail through a surviving mom 'n pop ISP but I connect through a
> major telecom company. If the local ISP is down (it suffers from the
> same power outages I do) I can swap in a different set of config
> files, restart sendmail, and send via the corporate SMTP server. My
> local ISP requires me to use TLS and AUTH on port 587 as I appear to
> it to be "foreign" but the corporate server apparently sees me as "one
> of ours" and accepts SMTP on port 25 as usual. (This doesn't help with
> receiving mail when the local ISP is down, of course.)

Yes I use my ISP's SMTP server similarly. One issue might be if
Google has their SPF record set to indicate that their servers are
the only valid source of mail from Gmail accounts. Then mail sent
from other SMTP servers is more likely to be marked as spam by
people who use spam filtering. However if you have your email
address at your own domain (not @gmail.com etc.), but hosted by
GMail, this isn't a problem as you can change your SPF record or
not use one at all (though the latter is claimed to often cause
email to be marked as spam too).

> FWIW, I've never used Gmail because I dread the kind of thing you're
> encountering -- hacking a corporate interface -- far more than I do
> the task of hacking sendmail (which is, as they say, marginally above
> my pay grade. :-)

Indeed I opt for Sendmailing over GMailing as well. Unfortunately
Google still forces me to tinker with Sendmail configs to try and
placate their evil spam filtering which nevertheless seems to
insist that anyone running their own email server must be sending
spam.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _# | Note: I won't see posts made from Google Groups |

On Sat, 27 Jan 2024 00:51:31 -0300
Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> wrote:
> It seems Gmail is decomissioning username-password authentication.
> Clients will have to use "Sign in with Google". What happens to all
> download-email programs? I'm looking for one, in fact. If I want to
> pull my mail via POP or IMAP today, what would I have to use?

I have been looking into the same thing. I don't have a definitive solution
at present but , with my looking so far , the most detailed instructions seem
to come from alpine (more detailed instructions than those the mutt
documentation provides) so I have been inclined to use alpine (on Linux)
exactly for this reason.

https://alpineapp.email/alpine/alpine-info/misc/AuthorizeAlpineGmail.html
https://alpineapp.email/alpine/alpine-info/misc/xoauth2.html

In fact I had been meaning to start a thread on comp.misc asking if people
feel that XOAUTH2 really does improve security. With my casual look so far , I
don't see that it does.

You may also want to ask on some newsgroup specific to the operating system
you want to use to do the job. What people with the same operating system are
using ?

> I'd like to read my mail with Gnus (using djb's Maildir storage). I
> can't stand Gmail any longer. I'm done.

The older "HTML only" gmail interface is ok for my taste but they are going
to decommission this in February (it was supposed to be January 2024 but they
seem to have extended it) and force you to use the bloated interface which I
don't like at all.

> (*) Other questions
>
> This ``Sign In with Google'' means the downloader would always have to
> ask me for passwords? I could never just pull gmail without being asked
> for credentials? (Very annoying.)

I haven't looked in detail at the alpine instructions but I think that ,
once you jump through the hoops to get the required credentials for gmail
access , then you can instruct alpine to store them so you won't have to enter
them every time. I think it is the same with mutt but the mutt documentation
makes it less clear what those initial hoops are.

From <87il3f5t2a.fsf@yaxenu.org> :
> Here's another option I might have. I could just forward my Gmail
> e-mail to another mailbox and then pull my email from this other
> mailbox. But this other mailbox would have to allow me some easy
> authentication and also let me SMTP-send mail from it.
>
> I don't have an SMTP server myself. To do that with, say, Proton Mail,
> I'd have to buy an account because there seems to be no IMAP access to
> it without a paid account.

In the long run , getting a different provider is I think the best solution.
My prediction is that gmail will gradually want you to jump through more and
more hoops (like giving them more and more private information) to access
your account so , the earlier you start planning where you're going to move
next , the easier it will be. In my case , my domain registrar (Gandi) also
provides email storage (with SMTP and IMAP access. I'm not sure if there is
also a web interface) as a bonus for buying the domain so my plan is to set
up that. But I still want to make gmail access through an external client
work as an intermediate step.

--
Given the way some of these characters knock back the booze (and why not),
I'm betting that the secret new PreCure who shows up two thirds of the way
through will be Cure Hangover.
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3191739

On 27 Jan 2024 02:23:18 -0400
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
> Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:

> > Here's another option I might have. I could just forward my Gmail
> > e-mail to another mailbox and then pull my email from this other
> > mailbox. But this other mailbox would have to allow me some easy
> > authentication and also let me SMTP-send mail from it.

Does gmail allow forwarding at present ? This is one thing they may turn off
in the future or force you to jump through awkward hoops to achieve it ,
in the name of security , you see.

> How do you access the net? Whatever company is providing your IP
> address or handing you one each time you connect should have an SMTP
> server on their system. Such a server shoud recognize your IP address
> as "one of ours" and allow you to connect and send mail.

Is this a universal thing ? Because I don't remember my current ISP
advertising this ; but I wasn't really looking. With such a set up , where
would for example notifications for failed deliveries be delivered ?

--
vlaho.ninja/menu

Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 27 Jan 2024 02:23:18 -0400
> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>> Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
>
>> > Here's another option I might have. I could just forward my Gmail
>> > e-mail to another mailbox and then pull my email from this other
>> > mailbox. But this other mailbox would have to allow me some easy
>> > authentication and also let me SMTP-send mail from it.
>
> Does gmail allow forwarding at present ? This is one thing they may turn off
> in the future or force you to jump through awkward hoops to achieve it ,
> in the name of security , you see.
> […]

Gmail allows forwarding but forwarded emails "may" hit after gmail anti
spam filters. It happen quite regularly in my case even with "spam
according to gmail" excluded from forwarding.

--
[Andrew] Andrzej A. Filip

Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> writes:

> On 27 Jan 2024 02:23:18 -0400
> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>> Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
>
>> > Here's another option I might have. I could just forward my Gmail
>> > e-mail to another mailbox and then pull my email from this other
>> > mailbox. But this other mailbox would have to allow me some easy
>> > authentication and also let me SMTP-send mail from it.
>
> Does gmail allow forwarding at present ? This is one thing they may turn off
> in the future or force you to jump through awkward hoops to achieve it ,
> in the name of security , you see.

They still do. Anything could happen.

>> How do you access the net? Whatever company is providing your IP
>> address or handing you one each time you connect should have an SMTP
>> server on their system. Such a server shoud recognize your IP address
>> as "one of ours" and allow you to connect and send mail.
>
> Is this a universal thing ? Because I don't remember my current ISP
> advertising this ; but I wasn't really looking.

It's likely an American thing.

> With such a set up , where would for example notifications for failed
> deliveries be delivered ?

Good question by the way.

Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
>> How do you access the net? Whatever company is providing your IP
>> address or handing you one each time you connect should have an SMTP
>> server on their system. Such a server shoud recognize your IP address
>> as "one of ours" and allow you to connect and send mail.
> Is this a universal thing ? Because I don't remember my current ISP
> advertising this ; but I wasn't really looking. With such a set up , where
> would for example notifications for failed deliveries be delivered ?

My ISP contracted out email to Google, so suddenly all the same problems
as using Gmail.
Dave

In comp.misc Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 27 Jan 2024 02:23:18 -0400
> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>> How do you access the net? Whatever company is providing your IP
>> address or handing you one each time you connect should have an SMTP
>> server on their system. Such a server shoud recognize your IP address
>> as "one of ours" and allow you to connect and send mail.
>
> Is this a universal thing ? Because I don't remember my current ISP
> advertising this ; but I wasn't really looking.

My ISP, and the one before it, don't currently advertise it (or at
least not obviously), but there are lists of SMTP servers run by
Australian ISPs where you can find them for my country. The same
might be the case where you live.

My previous ISP was a re-seller of another network so actually the
SMTP server was run by the network operator and only listed under
their name/domain. So that made it even less obvious that one was
available, but it worked.

> With such a set up, where would for example notifications for
> failed deliveries be delivered ?

The SMTP server should send them back to your from: address, so
like any other email it will be received by the SMTP server that
accepts mail for your email address. In the OP's case that would
be Google's SMTP server.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _# | Note: I won't see posts made from Google Groups |

Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> writes:

> next , the easier it will be. In my case , my domain registrar (Gandi) also
> provides email storage (with SMTP and IMAP access. I'm not sure if there is
> also a web interface) as a bonus for buying the domain so my plan is to set
> up that. But I still want to make gmail access through an external client
> work as an intermediate step.

Gandi was acquired last year and almost immediately announced
they'd start charging for email. That started back in November.
I'd been considering switching to Fastmail anyway, and at that
point I went ahead and switched.

Gandi search is crazy slow; Fastmail search is crazy fast.
Fastmail also has a gmail-style web UI if you like that sort
of thing.

It also has super easy import from Gmail and other providers.

Also calendar.

I'm a satisfied customer.

Good luck!

--
Eric Gillespie <*> epg@pretzelnet.org

On Thu, 01 Feb 2024 19:00:07 -0600
Eric Gillespie <epg@pretzelnet.org> wrote:
> Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > next , the easier it will be. In my case , my domain registrar (Gandi) also
> > provides email storage (with SMTP and IMAP access. I'm not sure if there is
> > also a web interface) as a bonus for buying the domain so my plan is to set
> > up that. But I still want to make gmail access through an external client
> > work as an intermediate step.
>
> Gandi was acquired last year and almost immediately announced
> they'd start charging for email. That started back in November.
> I'd been considering switching to Fastmail anyway, and at that
> point I went ahead and switched.
>
> Gandi search is crazy slow; Fastmail search is crazy fast.

Search for what ? If you mean searching in my emails , I have no use for
that. All I want is an email server for sending and receiving. Good spam
filtering would be a plus. Emails I want to keep I save on my own computer
and if I want search , grep works fine.