Hi *.*,

There's a RPi zero w (1W) and a RPi zero 2w (2W).
Both can boot from the same (not a clone, physically the identical)
SD-card. But (there always is a but) the 1W has WLAN, the 2W doesn't
have.

Has anybody an idea what's the difference? Or how can I investigate why
one has a WLAN connection, and the other has not.

BTW: it is not an issue with the DHCP server. The 2W doesn't even send
DHCP requests.

TIA, Stefan

On 06/11/2021 09:29, Stefan Kaintoch wrote:
> Hi *.*,
>
> There's a RPi zero w (1W) and a RPi zero 2w (2W).
> Both can boot from the same (not a clone, physically the identical)
> SD-card. But (there always is a but) the 1W has WLAN, the 2W doesn't
> have.
>
> Has anybody an idea what's the difference? Or how can I investigate why
> one has a WLAN connection, and the other has not.
>
> BTW: it is not an issue with the DHCP server. The 2W doesn't even send
> DHCP requests.
>
> TIA, Stefan

Sounds unlikely, but MAC address different?

--
Cheers,
David
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu

Stefan Kaintoch <stefan@ratri.rincewind.kaintoch.de> wrote:
> Hi *.*,
>
> There's a RPi zero w (1W) and a RPi zero 2w (2W).
> Both can boot from the same (not a clone, physically the identical)
> SD-card. But (there always is a but) the 1W has WLAN, the 2W doesn't
> have.
>
> Has anybody an idea what's the difference? Or how can I investigate why
> one has a WLAN connection, and the other has not.

Have you updated the firmware? I think there have been some pin-related
changes for the 2W, which may affect the way the wifi is connected. If
you're using an old SD card image that may be the problem.

sudo rpi-update

should handle that.

Theo

On 06-11-2021 10:29, Stefan Kaintoch wrote:
> There's a RPi zero w (1W) and a RPi zero 2w (2W).
> Both can boot from the same (not a clone, physically the identical)
> SD-card. But (there always is a but) the 1W has WLAN, the 2W doesn't
> have.
>
> Has anybody an idea what's the difference? Or how can I investigate why
> one has a WLAN connection, and the other has not.
>
> BTW: it is not an issue with the DHCP server. The 2W doesn't even send
> DHCP requests.

The Z2W has a slightly different wifi chip, so you need an absolutely
up-to-date RaspiOS 32-bit. (Not sure if the driver is in the 64-bit
version yet; that's still in beta.) Both these commands are essential,
in this order:

sudo apt update
sudo apt -y full-upgrade

then shut down and pop the card into the Z2W.

Stefan Kaintoch wrote:

> There's a RPi zero w (1W) and a RPi zero 2w (2W).
> Both can boot from the same (not a clone, physically the identical)
> SD-card. But (there always is a but) the 1W has WLAN, the 2W doesn't
> have.
>
> Has anybody an idea what's the difference? Or how can I investigate why
> one has a WLAN connection, and the other has not.

does raspbian bind the WLAN interface to the physical MAC address?

David Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> On 06/11/2021 09:29, Stefan Kaintoch wrote:
>> There's a RPi zero w (1W) and a RPi zero 2w (2W).
>> Both can boot from the same (not a clone, physically the identical)
>> SD-card. But (there always is a but) the 1W has WLAN, the 2W doesn't
>> have.
>>
>> Has anybody an idea what's the difference? Or how can I investigate why
>> one has a WLAN connection, and the other has not.
>>
>> BTW: it is not an issue with the DHCP server. The 2W doesn't even send
>> DHCP requests.
>>
>> TIA, Stefan
>
> Sounds unlikely, but MAC address different?

MAC addresses should be different. Two different WLAN chips. But as I
wrote: there are no DHCP requests from W2.

Bye, Stefan

On 06/11/2021 11:29, Stefan Kaintoch wrote:
> MAC addresses should be different. Two different WLAN chips. But as I
> wrote: there are no DHCP requests from W2.
>
> Bye, Stefan

Yes, of course, that's why I thought it unlikely. If it were me, I would try a
completely fresh card with a minimal standard Raspberry Pi OS. I think the
wireless /has/ changed, but I would be amazed if the Wi-Fi were non functional.
You might also try reconfiguring the Wi-Fi from the desktop (on a slightly
bigger OS).

Be sure your OS and firmware are up-to-date, as others have suggested.

--
Cheers,
David
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Stefan Kaintoch <stefan@ratri.rincewind.kaintoch.de> wrote:
> Have you updated the firmware? I think there have been some pin-related
> changes for the 2W, which may affect the way the wifi is connected. If
> you're using an old SD card image that may be the problem.
>
> sudo rpi-update

The OS has been updated before testing the Z2W using "sudo apt update ;
sudo apt dist-upgrade". I think that should also update the firmware.
But if not: How can I rpi-update without network? rpi-update complains
about missing network.

TIA, Stefan

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Stefan Kaintoch wrote:
>
>> There's a RPi zero w (1W) and a RPi zero 2w (2W).
>> Both can boot from the same (not a clone, physically the identical)
>> SD-card. But (there always is a but) the 1W has WLAN, the 2W doesn't
>> have.
>>
>> Has anybody an idea what's the difference? Or how can I investigate why
>> one has a WLAN connection, and the other has not.
>
> does raspbian bind the WLAN interface to the physical MAC address?

I think so, but am not sure, as I'm not sure what your question exactly
means.
"ip addr" shows the interface wlan0 with a MAC. But the interface is
down.

In syslog there's a message which says that wlan0 can't get a carrier.
I think that's the root cause. But why can't it get a carrier?

Bye, Stefan

A. Dumas <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> wrote:
> On 06-11-2021 10:29, Stefan Kaintoch wrote:
> The Z2W has a slightly different wifi chip, so you need an absolutely
> up-to-date RaspiOS 32-bit. (Not sure if the driver is in the 64-bit
> version yet; that's still in beta.) Both these commands are essential,
> in this order:
>
> sudo apt update
> sudo apt -y full-upgrade
>
> then shut down and pop the card into the Z2W.

I did this before inserting the card the first time into the Z2W.

Bye, Stefan

Stefan Kaintoch wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> does raspbian bind the WLAN interface to the physical MAC address?
>
> I think so, but am not sure, as I'm not sure what your question exactly
> means.

some distros (not really talking about PIs) when they first see e.g. eth0 will
check the MAC addr, and then store that association, if you remove the disk/SD
and boot a different computer, they'll see a different MAC addr and may
associate it with e.g. eth1, as a different NIC.

> "ip addr" shows the interface wlan0 with a MAC. But the interface is
> down.

sounds like MAC address isn't your issue then.

> In syslog there's a message which says that wlan0 can't get a carrier.
> I think that's the root cause. But why can't it get a carrier?

I'd test a brand new install of latest o/s to make sure the WLAN hardware is
working.

Den 2021-11-06 kl. 15:25, skrev Andy Burns:
> Stefan Kaintoch wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> does raspbian bind the WLAN interface to the physical MAC address?
>>
>> I think so, but am not sure, as I'm not sure what your question exactly
>> means.
>
> some distros (not really talking about PIs) when they first see e.g.
> eth0 will check the MAC addr, and then store that association, if you
> remove the disk/SD and boot a different computer, they'll see a
> different MAC addr and may associate it with e.g. eth1, as a different NIC.
>
>> "ip addr" shows the interface wlan0 with a MAC. But the interface is
>> down.
>
> sounds like MAC address isn't your issue then.
>

You said you switch the card between 2 zeros. Which MAC is it dispalying?

1 or 2?
Does the MAC change when you switch pi?
Or is somethinge cached?

--
Björn

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Have you updated the firmware? I think there have been some pin-related
> changes for the 2W, which may affect the way the wifi is connected. If
> you're using an old SD card image that may be the problem.
>
> sudo rpi-update
>
> should handle that.

Surely the firmware needed for an officially released board is in the
general release software? In the very early days of Raspberry Pi you needed
rpi-update for any firmware update but now the standard "apt upgrade" also
delivers new firmware and the official advice has shifted to: never ever
use rpi-update unless you know exactly what issue you're having, how
rpi-update attempts to solve it, and that it may well break your install.

On 06/11/2021 15:23, A. Dumas wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> Have you updated the firmware? I think there have been some pin-related
>> changes for the 2W, which may affect the way the wifi is connected. If
>> you're using an old SD card image that may be the problem.
>>
>> sudo rpi-update
>>
>> should handle that.
>
> Surely the firmware needed for an officially released board is in the
> general release software?

It may well be, but unless you do an image build, it may well not be
incorporated into the current kernel.

At one point a kernel upgrade destroyed my wifi - the broadcomm driver
for that kernel release were not supplied with it.

My guess is you have to force a kernel rebuild.
https://www.systutorials.com/docs/linux/man/8-update-initramfs/

is probably the tool to use.

--
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."

- Stephen Vizinczey

On 06/11/2021 15:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 06/11/2021 15:23, A. Dumas wrote:
>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>> Have you updated the firmware?  I think there have been some pin-related
>>> changes for the 2W, which may affect the way the wifi is connected.  If
>>> you're using an old SD card image that may be the problem.
>>>
>>> sudo rpi-update
>>>
>>> should handle that.
>>
>> Surely the firmware needed for an officially released board is in the
>> general release software?
>
> It may well be, but unless you do an image build, it may well not be
> incorporated into the current kernel.
>
> At one point a kernel upgrade destroyed my wifi - the broadcomm driver
> for that kernel release were not supplied with it.
>
> My guess is you have to force a kernel rebuild.
> https://www.systutorials.com/docs/linux/man/8-update-initramfs/
>
>  is probably the tool to use.
>
>
>
seems like 'dracut -f' is what you need to run on the new system ...

--
For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the
very definition of slavery.

Jonathan Swift

David Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> On 06/11/2021 11:29, Stefan Kaintoch wrote:
>> MAC addresses should be different. Two different WLAN chips. But as I
>> wrote: there are no DHCP requests from W2.
>>
>> Bye, Stefan
>
> Yes, of course, that's why I thought it unlikely. If it were me, I would try a
> completely fresh card with a minimal standard Raspberry Pi OS. I think the
> wireless /has/ changed, but I would be amazed if the Wi-Fi were non functional.
> You might also try reconfiguring the Wi-Fi from the desktop (on a slightly
> bigger OS).
>
> Be sure your OS and firmware are up-to-date, as others have suggested.

The SD was freshly installed (RaspOS from 2021-05-xx), then "apt update;
apt dist-upgrade".
I tried a rpi-update on the Pi zero W. That brought 2 new files in
/boot: bcm2710-rpi-zero-2[-w].dtb.

Unfortunately that didn't make the trick. WLAN still not working.

Bye, Stefan

On 06/11/2021 15:16, Stefan Kaintoch wrote:
> David Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
>> On 06/11/2021 11:29, Stefan Kaintoch wrote:
>>> MAC addresses should be different. Two different WLAN chips. But as I
>>> wrote: there are no DHCP requests from W2.
>>>
>>> Bye, Stefan
>>
>> Yes, of course, that's why I thought it unlikely. If it were me, I would try a
>> completely fresh card with a minimal standard Raspberry Pi OS. I think the
>> wireless /has/ changed, but I would be amazed if the Wi-Fi were non functional.
>> You might also try reconfiguring the Wi-Fi from the desktop (on a slightly
>> bigger OS).
>>
>> Be sure your OS and firmware are up-to-date, as others have suggested.
>
> The SD was freshly installed (RaspOS from 2021-05-xx), then "apt update;
> apt dist-upgrade".
> I tried a rpi-update on the Pi zero W. That brought 2 new files in
> /boot: bcm2710-rpi-zero-2[-w].dtb.

try an apt upgrade now...

>
> Unfortunately that didn't make the trick. WLAN still not working.
>
> Bye, Stefan
>
You probly need to force a kernel rebuild and new initramfs and install it.

Might be easy to downgrade kernel and upgrade it.

--
No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Stefan Kaintoch wrote:
>
> > Andy Burns wrote:
> >
> >> does raspbian bind the WLAN interface to the physical MAC address?
> >
> > I think so, but am not sure, as I'm not sure what your question exactly
> > means.
>
> some distros (not really talking about PIs) when they first see e.g. eth0 will
> check the MAC addr, and then store that association, if you remove the disk/SD
> and boot a different computer, they'll see a different MAC addr and may
> associate it with e.g. eth1, as a different NIC.

The fix for the 'remembering' of network interfaces is usually to delete a
file
/etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules
There's no harm in deleting it to see if it fixes the problem.

(this is particularly fun when your password is stored on the network so you
need an active network to login, but you need to delete the file to make the
network work)

Theo

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 06/11/2021 15:16, Stefan Kaintoch wrote:
>> David Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 06/11/2021 11:29, Stefan Kaintoch wrote:
>>>> MAC addresses should be different. Two different WLAN chips. But as I
>>>> wrote: there are no DHCP requests from W2.
>>>>
>>>> Bye, Stefan
>>>
>>> Yes, of course, that's why I thought it unlikely. If it were me, I would try a
>>> completely fresh card with a minimal standard Raspberry Pi OS. I think the
>>> wireless /has/ changed, but I would be amazed if the Wi-Fi were non functional.
>>> You might also try reconfiguring the Wi-Fi from the desktop (on a slightly
>>> bigger OS).
>>>
>>> Be sure your OS and firmware are up-to-date, as others have suggested.
>>
>> The SD was freshly installed (RaspOS from 2021-05-xx), then "apt update;
>> apt dist-upgrade".
>> I tried a rpi-update on the Pi zero W. That brought 2 new files in
>> /boot: bcm2710-rpi-zero-2[-w].dtb.
>
> try an apt upgrade now...

Already done several times; no changes.

> You probly need to force a kernel rebuild and new initramfs and install it.

Why?

Loaded modules are cfg80211, brcmfmac and brcmutil.
MAC addresses between zero W and zero 2 W differ.

TIA, Stefan

On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 18:21:53 +0100, Stefan Kaintoch wrote:

> Loaded modules are cfg80211, brcmfmac and brcmutil. MAC addresses
> between zero W and zero 2 W differ.
>
I may have missed seeing you mention it, but have you looked in the
system logs to see what, if anything, they show about initialising wifi?

--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On 06-11-2021 14:45, Stefan Kaintoch wrote:
> A. Dumas <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> wrote:
>> sudo apt update
>> sudo apt -y full-upgrade
>> then shut down and pop the card into the Z2W.
>
> I did this before inserting the card the first time into the Z2W.

Then, like others said, I think the next step is to try a brand new SD
card image of the latest RaspiOS download. I would be very surprised if
that didn't work, or in other words: that would probably mean hardware
error. (Or a very peculiar wifi access point, maybe.)

If the new card does work, I would still be surprised, namely that the
update from the Z1W didn't work. If that is the case for everyone, I bet
there will be lots of discussion about it over at
https://forums.raspberrypi.com

Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 18:21:53 +0100, Stefan Kaintoch wrote:
>
>> Loaded modules are cfg80211, brcmfmac and brcmutil. MAC addresses
>> between zero W and zero 2 W differ.
>>
> I may have missed seeing you mention it, but have you looked in the
> system logs to see what, if anything, they show about initialising wifi?

Yes, I did. Something like "carrier not found".

On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 10:25:20 +0100, Stefan Kaintoch wrote:

> Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 18:21:53 +0100, Stefan Kaintoch wrote:
>>
>>> Loaded modules are cfg80211, brcmfmac and brcmutil. MAC addresses
>>> between zero W and zero 2 W differ.
>>>
>> I may have missed seeing you mention it, but have you looked in the
>> system logs to see what, if anything, they show about initialising
>> wifi?
>
> Yes, I did. Something like "carrier not found".

Exactly what the log entry(s) showed is always better than 'something
like', but OK.

So, can other PCs, etc. connect to your wifi endpoint?

Anybody: on a wired network, I'd normally:
- scan the non-connecting device with nmap to see what ports are open
- install and start Wireshark on the non-responsive device to monitor
incoming and outgoing traffic.

Do nmap and wireshark work for wifi connections? If not, what are their
wifi equivalents?

I have a Pi Zero W but haven't yet powered it up: its intended to be used
as part of the model aircraft timer project I've mentioned elsewhere.

--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Martin Gregorie wrote:

> Do nmap

yes

> and wireshark work for wifi connections?

generally not in promiscuous mode, so only useful for capturing traffic to/from
the local wifi interface.

> If not, what are their wifi equivalents?

One way is to wireshark over ethernet from a switch that can mirror the traffic
from the wifi access point's port?

On 06/11/2021 17:21, Stefan Kaintoch wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 06/11/2021 15:16, Stefan Kaintoch wrote:
>>> David Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 06/11/2021 11:29, Stefan Kaintoch wrote:
>>>>> MAC addresses should be different. Two different WLAN chips. But as I
>>>>> wrote: there are no DHCP requests from W2.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bye, Stefan
>>>>
>>>> Yes, of course, that's why I thought it unlikely. If it were me, I would try a
>>>> completely fresh card with a minimal standard Raspberry Pi OS. I think the
>>>> wireless /has/ changed, but I would be amazed if the Wi-Fi were non functional.
>>>> You might also try reconfiguring the Wi-Fi from the desktop (on a slightly
>>>> bigger OS).
>>>>
>>>> Be sure your OS and firmware are up-to-date, as others have suggested.
>>>
>>> The SD was freshly installed (RaspOS from 2021-05-xx), then "apt update;
>>> apt dist-upgrade".
>>> I tried a rpi-update on the Pi zero W. That brought 2 new files in
>>> /boot: bcm2710-rpi-zero-2[-w].dtb.
>>
>> try an apt upgrade now...
>
> Already done several times; no changes.
>
>> You probly need to force a kernel rebuild and new initramfs and install it.
>
> Why?
>
> Loaded modules are cfg80211, brcmfmac and brcmutil.
> MAC addresses between zero W and zero 2 W differ.
> h
MAC addresses are unique to every single adapter in the world - so
thata a red herring

> TIA, Stefan
>
"The Zero W uses the same chip and implementation as the Pi3, which is
BCM43438 combo chip"

Whilst it is not clear what has been changed, the 2W has made changes to
the wifi.

I am merely suggesting that the old kernel may need a rebuild to
incorporate updated drivers.

--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
they are poor.

Peter Thompson