New battery for Lenovo ThinkPad T430 (from eBay)...

Genuine 9Cell 0A36303 Battery For Len ovo ThinkPad T430 T530 W530 L430 L530 70++
https://i.postimg.cc/5t4TJNGm/IMG-0194.jpg
[Label says P/N is 45N1007 but...]

Internal ID says the model is 45N1023 (which conflicts with P/N on label)...

xerus@ThinkPad-T430:~$ upower -i $(upower -e | grep 'BAT')
native-path: BAT0
vendor: SANYO
model: 45N1023 <<<< 45N1023 ?!?!?
serial: 1160
power supply: yes
updated: Fri 14 Apr 2023 06:26:45 PM PDT (2 seconds ago)
has history: yes
has statistics: yes
battery
present: yes
rechargeable: yes
state: discharging
warning-level: none
energy: 26.83 Wh
energy-empty: 0 Wh
energy-full: 94 Wh
energy-full-design: 94 Wh
energy-rate: 15.532 W
voltage: 10.502 V
time to empty: 1.7 hours
percentage: 31%
capacity: 90.0957%
technology: lithium-ion
icon-name: 'battery-good-symbolic'
History (charge):
1681522005 31.000 discharging
History (rate):
1681522005 15.532 discharging

xerus@ThinkPad-T430:~$

Is this normal?

On 15/04/2023 05:57, Adam wrote:
>
> New battery for Lenovo ThinkPad T430 (from eBay)...
>
> Genuine 9Cell 0A36303 Battery For Len ovo ThinkPad T430 T530 W530 L430
> L530 70++
> https://i.postimg.cc/5t4TJNGm/IMG-0194.jpg
> [Label says P/N is 45N1007 but...]
>
> Internal ID says the model is 45N1023 (which conflicts with P/N on
> label)...
>
> xerus@ThinkPad-T430:~$ upower -i $(upower -e | grep 'BAT')
> native-path: BAT0
> vendor: SANYO
> model: 45N1023                <<<< 45N1023 ?!?!?
> serial: 1160
> power supply: yes
> updated: Fri 14 Apr 2023 06:26:45 PM PDT (2 seconds ago)
> has history: yes
mal?

Fake battery. "Genuine" is a Chinese brand name ...

--
Adrian C

On 04/17/2023 12:04 AM, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
> On 15/04/2023 05:57, Adam wrote:
>>
>> New battery for Lenovo ThinkPad T430 (from eBay)...
>>
>> Genuine 9Cell 0A36303 Battery For Len ovo ThinkPad T430 T530 W530 L430
>> L530 70++
>> https://i.postimg.cc/5t4TJNGm/IMG-0194.jpg
>> [Label says P/N is 45N1007 but...]
>>
>> Internal ID says the model is 45N1023 (which conflicts with P/N on
>> label)...
>>
>> xerus@ThinkPad-T430:~$ upower -i $(upower -e | grep 'BAT')
>> native-path: BAT0
>> vendor: SANYO
>> model: 45N1023 <<<< 45N1023 ?!?!?
>> serial: 1160
>> power supply: yes
>> updated: Fri 14 Apr 2023 06:26:45 PM PDT (2 seconds ago)
>> has history: yes
> mal?
>
> Fake battery. "Genuine" is a Chinese brand name ...
>

FALSE advertising? Consequence of outsourcing.

For Brand, the eBay listing specified..."Len ovo Battery"

45N1023 costs less than 45N1007. So, they're taking a cheaper battery
model and slapping on a label for a higher-cost model to sell at a
higher price but lower than OEM?

The "Genuine" battery charges fine but the fit is almost too tight. Not
sure how long it will last though. My old 45N1007 is dated 2012.

What to do? Return? Where to buy?

On 17/04/2023 18:57, Adam wrote:
>
> On 04/17/2023 12:04 AM, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>> On 15/04/2023 05:57, Adam wrote:
>>>
>>> New battery for Lenovo ThinkPad T430 (from eBay)...
>>>
>>> Genuine 9Cell 0A36303 Battery For Len ovo ThinkPad T430 T530 W530 L430
>>> L530 70++
>>> https://i.postimg.cc/5t4TJNGm/IMG-0194.jpg
>>> [Label says P/N is 45N1007 but...]
>>>
>>> Internal ID says the model is 45N1023 (which conflicts with P/N on
>>> label)...
>>>
>>> xerus@ThinkPad-T430:~$ upower -i $(upower -e | grep 'BAT')
>>> native-path: BAT0
>>> vendor: SANYO
>>> model: 45N1023                <<<< 45N1023 ?!?!?
>>> serial: 1160
>>> power supply: yes
>>> updated: Fri 14 Apr 2023 06:26:45 PM PDT (2 seconds ago)
>>> has history: yes
>> mal?
>>
>> Fake battery. "Genuine" is a Chinese brand name ...
>>
>
> FALSE advertising?  Consequence of outsourcing.
>
> For Brand, the eBay listing specified..."Len ovo Battery"
>
> 45N1023 costs less than 45N1007.  So, they're taking a cheaper battery
> model and slapping on a label for a higher-cost model to sell at a
> higher price but lower than OEM?
>
> The "Genuine" battery charges fine but the fit is almost too tight.  Not
> sure how long it will last though.  My old 45N1007 is dated 2012.
>
> What to do?  Return?  Where to buy?
>

To be fair, unless you paid a silly price equivalent to a Lenovo
original, you may as well stick with it and see what pans out?

The circuit board that balances charging voltages between individual
cells might be a clone engineered not to burst into flames (or not!) or
it might even be a genuine board recycled from an original, to play
nicely with whatever firmware locks Lenovo have built into the laptop.

Likewise cells can be new or recycled. You just don't know.

However, with your new-to-you cell - first give it a full charge and
discharge cycle and look for signs of localised heating, strange smell
etc... For the first few times don't leave it charging unattended - but
then again the newspapers are not filled with daily horror stories of
disasters folks have had. Some, but not really everrrrry day. Do ya'
feel lucky, punk? :-)

On the other hand, daily horror stories abound with poor quality mains
power adaptors....

I've have three T400 laptops on very cheap eBay batteries that I trust
only for two hours of use, they otherwise spend life on permanent charge
and no flames. Bought the batteries in 2019, which is good going.

These guys - https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/coolgo2014

upower read back SANYO 92P1137 (which matches originals) with a now
remaining capacity of 96.95% (which is pure fantasy!)

I think the thing with eBay and amazon sellers if you are going to try
and save some money with purchasing a "pattern/OEM" part, is to
deliberately go somewhere that plainly advertises that the part is NOT
original, but compatible.

( BTW, OEM doesn't mean that that manufacturer is an original source for
the same product that is officially supplied. No manufacturer would risk
being caught doing that behind their customer's back. )

I had this purchasing experience with 3D glasses for a Sony TV. I could
find some very convincing looking packaged products looking like the
real deal for some small discount, or something entirely different
looking for much less.

Wanting not to take a hit on a rubbish fake, or an overpriced original
from a Sony dealer (a pair costing 1/3 the price of the TV!), I just
deliberately went the compatible way. Also read reviews. And the glasses
worked well enough for me.

--
Adrian C

On 04/17/2023 03:57 PM, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
> On 17/04/2023 18:57, Adam wrote:
>>
>> On 04/17/2023 12:04 AM, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>> On 15/04/2023 05:57, Adam wrote:
>>>>
>>>> New battery for Lenovo ThinkPad T430 (from eBay)...
>>>>
>>>> Genuine 9Cell 0A36303 Battery For Len ovo ThinkPad T430 T530 W530 L430
>>>> L530 70++
>>>> https://i.postimg.cc/5t4TJNGm/IMG-0194.jpg
>>>> [Label says P/N is 45N1007 but...]
>>>>
>>>> Internal ID says the model is 45N1023 (which conflicts with P/N on
>>>> label)...
>>>>
>>>> xerus@ThinkPad-T430:~$ upower -i $(upower -e | grep 'BAT')
>>>> native-path: BAT0
>>>> vendor: SANYO
>>>> model: 45N1023 <<<< 45N1023 ?!?!?
>>>> serial: 1160
>>>> power supply: yes
>>>> updated: Fri 14 Apr 2023 06:26:45 PM PDT (2 seconds ago)
>>>> has history: yes
>>> mal?
>>>
>>> Fake battery. "Genuine" is a Chinese brand name ...
>>>
>>
>> FALSE advertising? Consequence of outsourcing.
>>
>> For Brand, the eBay listing specified..."Len ovo Battery"
>>
>> 45N1023 costs less than 45N1007. So, they're taking a cheaper battery
>> model and slapping on a label for a higher-cost model to sell at a
>> higher price but lower than OEM?
>>
>> The "Genuine" battery charges fine but the fit is almost too tight.
>> Not sure how long it will last though. My old 45N1007 is dated 2012.
>>
>> What to do? Return? Where to buy?
>>
>
> To be fair, unless you paid a silly price equivalent to a Lenovo
> original, you may as well stick with it and see what pans out?
>
> The circuit board that balances charging voltages between individual
> cells might be a clone engineered not to burst into flames (or not!) or
> it might even be a genuine board recycled from an original, to play
> nicely with whatever firmware locks Lenovo have built into the laptop.
>
> Likewise cells can be new or recycled. You just don't know.
>
> However, with your new-to-you cell - first give it a full charge and
> discharge cycle and look for signs of localised heating, strange smell
> etc... For the first few times don't leave it charging unattended - but
> then again the newspapers are not filled with daily horror stories of
> disasters folks have had. Some, but not really everrrrry day. Do ya'
> feel lucky, punk? :-)
>
> On the other hand, daily horror stories abound with poor quality mains
> power adaptors....
>
> I've have three T400 laptops on very cheap eBay batteries that I trust
> only for two hours of use, they otherwise spend life on permanent charge
> and no flames. Bought the batteries in 2019, which is good going.
>
> These guys - https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/coolgo2014
>
> upower read back SANYO 92P1137 (which matches originals) with a now
> remaining capacity of 96.95% (which is pure fantasy!)
>
> I think the thing with eBay and amazon sellers if you are going to try
> and save some money with purchasing a "pattern/OEM" part, is to
> deliberately go somewhere that plainly advertises that the part is NOT
> original, but compatible.
>
> ( BTW, OEM doesn't mean that that manufacturer is an original source for
> the same product that is officially supplied. No manufacturer would risk
> being caught doing that behind their customer's back. ).
>
> I had this purchasing experience with 3D glasses for a Sony TV. I could
> find some very convincing looking packaged products looking like the
> real deal for some small discount, or something entirely different
> looking for much less.
>
> Wanting not to take a hit on a rubbish fake, or an overpriced original
> from a Sony dealer (a pair costing 1/3 the price of the TV!), I just
> deliberately went the compatible way. Also read reviews. And the glasses
> worked well enough for me.
>

Thanks, I've been keeping an eye on it via Power Statistics. I don't
keep laptop plugged in, only when alerted battery is LOW. Then, laptop
is plugged in to FULL and disconnected. Seems like this should be so
easy to implement automatically so user doesn't have to do it manually. :-)

On 04/17/2023 04:31 PM, Adam wrote:
> On 04/17/2023 03:57 PM, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>> On 17/04/2023 18:57, Adam wrote:
>>>
>>> On 04/17/2023 12:04 AM, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>>> On 15/04/2023 05:57, Adam wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> New battery for Lenovo ThinkPad T430 (from eBay)...
>>>>>
>>>>> Genuine 9Cell 0A36303 Battery For Len ovo ThinkPad T430 T530 W530 L430
>>>>> L530 70++
>>>>> https://i.postimg.cc/5t4TJNGm/IMG-0194.jpg
>>>>> [Label says P/N is 45N1007 but...]
>>>>>
>>>>> Internal ID says the model is 45N1023 (which conflicts with P/N on
>>>>> label)...
>>>>>
>>>>> xerus@ThinkPad-T430:~$ upower -i $(upower -e | grep 'BAT')
>>>>> native-path: BAT0
>>>>> vendor: SANYO
>>>>> model: 45N1023 <<<< 45N1023 ?!?!?
>>>>> serial: 1160
>>>>> power supply: yes
>>>>> updated: Fri 14 Apr 2023 06:26:45 PM PDT (2 seconds ago)
>>>>> has history: yes
>>>> mal?
>>>>
>>>> Fake battery. "Genuine" is a Chinese brand name ...
>>>>
>>>
>>> FALSE advertising? Consequence of outsourcing.
>>>
>>> For Brand, the eBay listing specified..."Len ovo Battery"
>>>
>>> 45N1023 costs less than 45N1007. So, they're taking a cheaper battery
>>> model and slapping on a label for a higher-cost model to sell at a
>>> higher price but lower than OEM?
>>>
>>> The "Genuine" battery charges fine but the fit is almost too tight.
>>> Not sure how long it will last though. My old 45N1007 is dated 2012.
>>>
>>> What to do? Return? Where to buy?
>>>
>>
>> To be fair, unless you paid a silly price equivalent to a Lenovo
>> original, you may as well stick with it and see what pans out?
>>
>> The circuit board that balances charging voltages between individual
>> cells might be a clone engineered not to burst into flames (or not!) or
>> it might even be a genuine board recycled from an original, to play
>> nicely with whatever firmware locks Lenovo have built into the laptop.

Condition: New

It's doesn't say "refurbished" or "recycled".

>>
>> Likewise cells can be new or recycled. You just don't know.
>>
>> However, with your new-to-you cell - first give it a full charge and
>> discharge cycle and look for signs of localised heating, strange smell
>> etc... For the first few times don't leave it charging unattended - but
>> then again the newspapers are not filled with daily horror stories of
>> disasters folks have had. Some, but not really everrrrry day. Do ya'
>> feel lucky, punk? :-)
>>
>> On the other hand, daily horror stories abound with poor quality mains
>> power adaptors....
>>
>> I've have three T400 laptops on very cheap eBay batteries that I trust
>> only for two hours of use, they otherwise spend life on permanent charge
>> and no flames. Bought the batteries in 2019, which is good going.
>>
>> These guys - https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/coolgo2014
>>
>> upower read back SANYO 92P1137 (which matches originals) with a now
>> remaining capacity of 96.95% (which is pure fantasy!)
>>
>> I think the thing with eBay and amazon sellers if you are going to try
>> and save some money with purchasing a "pattern/OEM" part, is to
>> deliberately go somewhere that plainly advertises that the part is NOT
>> original, but compatible.
>>
>> ( BTW, OEM doesn't mean that that manufacturer is an original source for
>> the same product that is officially supplied. No manufacturer would risk
>> being caught doing that behind their customer's back. ).
>>
>> I had this purchasing experience with 3D glasses for a Sony TV. I could
>> find some very convincing looking packaged products looking like the
>> real deal for some small discount, or something entirely different
>> looking for much less.
>>
>> Wanting not to take a hit on a rubbish fake, or an overpriced original
>> from a Sony dealer (a pair costing 1/3 the price of the TV!), I just
>> deliberately went the compatible way. Also read reviews. And the glasses
>> worked well enough for me.
>>
>
> Thanks, I've been keeping an eye on it via Power Statistics. I don't
> keep laptop plugged in, only when alerted battery is LOW. Then, laptop
> is plugged in to FULL and disconnected. Seems like this should be so
> easy to implement automatically so user doesn't have to do it manually.
> :-)
>

On 4/17/2023 11:55 PM, Adam wrote:
> On 04/17/2023 04:31 PM, Adam wrote:
>> On 04/17/2023 03:57 PM, Adrian Caspersz wrote:

>>> The circuit board that balances charging voltages between individual
>>> cells might be a clone engineered not to burst into flames (or not!) or
>>> it might even be a genuine board recycled from an original, to play
>>> nicely with whatever firmware locks Lenovo have built into the laptop.
>
> Condition:    New
>
> It's doesn't say "refurbished" or "recycled".

The design is pretty simple.

+ ----- cells ----- - (there could be a BMS PCB disc, preventing certain things)

(bus) --/-- EEPROM based
coulomb counter chip ---- (old ones also had status LEDs on the pack and a status button)
serialized

The coulomb counter, not only does it keep track of watt-hours
remaining, it also has a set of coefficients which estimate
how the cells age.

A competent battery pack design, puts the correct coefficients
in the coulomb counter chip. After 200 charges, the pack has
5% less capacity, and the coulomb counter "deducts the damage"
from readings, to give a more true indication of charge remaining.
So maybe instead of "90 minute remaining", it says "85 minutes remaining".

The laptop is responsible for filling the cells, and "charge termination".
The charging process monitors only pack voltage and current flow,
to conclude when a cell is full. Charging does not rely upon
coulomb counter integrity. If you took a hacksaw, and cut off
the coulomb counter, charging would continue to work properly.

From a safety point of view, whether the coulomb counter is
there, is accurate or inaccurate, does not matter. The charge
management chip, knows all and sees all. The charge management
chip, is responsible for not setting fire to your house.

The coulomb counter is your "fuel gauge", and helps you manage
your usage behavior with regard to data integrity. Some packs,
when they get old, the pack "flattens" so quickly, the fuel
gauge is not able to give an accurate indication that something
should be done. And the file system could receive a dirty
shutdown (not a big problem for EXT4, but maybe a problem
for your lost work).

When a Chinese guy builds a pack (fake or otherwise), he may use
the correct part number for the coulomb counter chip. But whether the
actual cell wear characteristic matches the coefficients in the
fuel gauge, who knows. It's possible the time remaining is
not accurate. While occasionally fully draining the pack, and
fully filling the pack, can help "calibrate it", this does not
necessarily correct any coefficients which estimate wear rates.

Were these things done, just to make the pack "complicated" ?
Probably :-)

The coulomb counter, is supposed to be a better method, than
"just watching the battery voltage". That's why the method
exists. The fuel gauge equation is rather complicated, when
all parameters are in usage.

A pack design could be ruined, by providing 700mAH cells
instead of the 10000mAH promised, so there is that aspect
of pack design. I do not know how your new pack, would
compare to the runtime of the original pack. It might be
just 66% of the original. This is where the luck of the
draw comes in, on pack purchase. "Did I get Panasonic cells?"
or did I get the cheapest cells the market could provide ?

If the chemistry changed, from Lithium Cobalt to Lithium
Iron Phosphate, that would be bad, since the laptop charger
chip *assumes* a certain chemistry. At least the cell
chemistry had better be a close match, if you expect
to get more than a month out of the pack.

*******

This is one reason my UPS does not have a battery today (dead).
I bought a "branded" spare from the computer store. It
lasted three years. Three cells of six cells, failed short
circuit. This is obviously a fabrication error, and the
pack wasn't even remotely close to being correct. The original
pack lasted 11 years, and did not fail short. All cells working,
but just knackered on plates (no functional capacity left). The
original pack and the charger, behaved well with respect to
one another. The replacement was a shambles. Shambolic. I
only caught it in time, because I checked chassis temperature
and I could feel heat. An SPS UPS should remain ice cold when not
being on-battery. As soon as I felt heat one day, it was time to take
it apart. A check with a multimeter, showed how close I was
getting to a disaster.

Who do I trust now, for a replacement battery pack for the thing ?
Does the Pope make battery packs ? Is there an honest person
left in this world ?

Paul

On 4/18/23 05:10, Paul wrote:
> On 4/17/2023 11:55 PM, Adam wrote:
>> On 04/17/2023 04:31 PM, Adam wrote:
>>> On 04/17/2023 03:57 PM, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>
>>>> The circuit board that balances charging voltages between individual
>>>> cells might be a clone engineered not to burst into flames (or not!) or
>>>> it might even be a genuine board recycled from an original, to play
>>>> nicely with whatever firmware locks Lenovo have built into the laptop.
>>
>> Condition:    New
>>
>> It's doesn't say "refurbished" or "recycled".
>
> The design is pretty simple.
>
>       + ----- cells ----- -  (there could be a BMS PCB disc, preventing
> certain things)
>
>     (bus) --/-- EEPROM based
>                 coulomb counter chip ---- (old ones also had status
> LEDs on the pack and a status button)
>                 serialized
>
> The coulomb counter, not only does it keep track of watt-hours
> remaining, it also has a set of coefficients which estimate
> how the cells age.
>
> A competent battery pack design, puts the correct coefficients
> in the coulomb counter chip. After 200 charges, the pack has
> 5% less capacity, and the coulomb counter "deducts the damage"
> from readings, to give a more true indication of charge remaining.
> So maybe instead of "90 minute remaining", it says "85 minutes remaining".
>
> The laptop is responsible for filling the cells, and "charge termination".
> The charging process monitors only pack voltage and current flow,
> to conclude when a cell is full. Charging does not rely upon
> coulomb counter integrity. If you took a hacksaw, and cut off
> the coulomb counter, charging would continue to work properly.
>
> From a safety point of view, whether the coulomb counter is
> there, is accurate or inaccurate, does not matter. The charge
> management chip, knows all and sees all. The charge management
> chip, is responsible for not setting fire to your house.
>
> The coulomb counter is your "fuel gauge", and helps you manage
> your usage behavior with regard to data integrity. Some packs,
> when they get old, the pack "flattens" so quickly, the fuel
> gauge is not able to give an accurate indication that something
> should be done. And the file system could receive a dirty
> shutdown (not a big problem for EXT4, but maybe a problem
> for your lost work).
>
> When a Chinese guy builds a pack (fake or otherwise), he may use
> the correct part number for the coulomb counter chip. But whether the
> actual cell wear characteristic matches the coefficients in the
> fuel gauge, who knows. It's possible the time remaining is
> not accurate. While occasionally fully draining the pack, and
> fully filling the pack, can help "calibrate it", this does not
> necessarily correct any coefficients which estimate wear rates.
>
> Were these things done, just to make the pack "complicated" ?
> Probably :-)
>
> The coulomb counter, is supposed to be a better method, than
> "just watching the battery voltage". That's why the method
> exists. The fuel gauge equation is rather complicated, when
> all parameters are in usage.
>
> A pack design could be ruined, by providing 700mAH cells
> instead of the 10000mAH promised, so there is that aspect
> of pack design. I do not know how your new pack, would
> compare to the runtime of the original pack. It might be
> just 66% of the original. This is where the luck of the
> draw comes in, on pack purchase. "Did I get Panasonic cells?"
> or did I get the cheapest cells the market could provide ?
>
> If the chemistry changed, from Lithium Cobalt to Lithium
> Iron Phosphate, that would be bad, since the laptop charger
> chip *assumes* a certain chemistry. At least the cell
> chemistry had better be a close match, if you expect
> to get more than a month out of the pack.
>
> *******
>
> This is one reason my UPS does not have a battery today (dead).
> I bought a "branded" spare from the computer store. It
> lasted three years. Three cells of six cells, failed short
> circuit. This is obviously a fabrication error, and the
> pack wasn't even remotely close to being correct. The original
> pack lasted 11 years, and did not fail short. All cells working,
> but just knackered on plates (no functional capacity left). The
> original pack and the charger, behaved well with respect to
> one another. The replacement was a shambles. Shambolic. I
> only caught it in time, because I checked chassis temperature
> and I could feel heat. An SPS UPS should remain ice cold when not
> being on-battery. As soon as I felt heat one day, it was time to take
> it apart. A check with a multimeter, showed how close I was
> getting to a disaster.
>
> Who do I trust now, for a replacement battery pack for the thing ?
> Does the Pope make battery packs ? Is there an honest person
> left in this world ?
>
>    Paul

How about the maker of the charger?

Recently I read online that batteries, Lithium were being assembled
with the wrong tape leading to early failures.

bliss

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

On 04/18/2023 05:10 AM, Paul wrote:
> On 4/17/2023 11:55 PM, Adam wrote:
>> On 04/17/2023 04:31 PM, Adam wrote:
>>> On 04/17/2023 03:57 PM, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>
>>>> The circuit board that balances charging voltages between individual
>>>> cells might be a clone engineered not to burst into flames (or not!) or
>>>> it might even be a genuine board recycled from an original, to play
>>>> nicely with whatever firmware locks Lenovo have built into the laptop.
>>
>> Condition: New
>>
>> It's doesn't say "refurbished" or "recycled".
>
> The design is pretty simple.
>
> + ----- cells ----- - (there could be a BMS PCB disc, preventing
> certain things)
>
> (bus) --/-- EEPROM based
> coulomb counter chip ---- (old ones also had status
> LEDs on the pack and a status button)
> serialized
>
> The coulomb counter, not only does it keep track of watt-hours
> remaining, it also has a set of coefficients which estimate
> how the cells age.
>
> A competent battery pack design, puts the correct coefficients
> in the coulomb counter chip. After 200 charges, the pack has
> 5% less capacity, and the coulomb counter "deducts the damage"
> from readings, to give a more true indication of charge remaining.
> So maybe instead of "90 minute remaining", it says "85 minutes remaining".
>
> The laptop is responsible for filling the cells, and "charge termination".
> The charging process monitors only pack voltage and current flow,
> to conclude when a cell is full. Charging does not rely upon
> coulomb counter integrity. If you took a hacksaw, and cut off
> the coulomb counter, charging would continue to work properly.
>
> From a safety point of view, whether the coulomb counter is
> there, is accurate or inaccurate, does not matter. The charge
> management chip, knows all and sees all. The charge management
> chip, is responsible for not setting fire to your house.
>
> The coulomb counter is your "fuel gauge", and helps you manage
> your usage behavior with regard to data integrity. Some packs,
> when they get old, the pack "flattens" so quickly, the fuel
> gauge is not able to give an accurate indication that something
> should be done. And the file system could receive a dirty
> shutdown (not a big problem for EXT4, but maybe a problem
> for your lost work).
>
> When a Chinese guy builds a pack (fake or otherwise), he may use
> the correct part number for the coulomb counter chip. But whether the
> actual cell wear characteristic matches the coefficients in the
> fuel gauge, who knows. It's possible the time remaining is
> not accurate. While occasionally fully draining the pack, and
> fully filling the pack, can help "calibrate it", this does not
> necessarily correct any coefficients which estimate wear rates.
>
> Were these things done, just to make the pack "complicated" ?
> Probably :-)
>
> The coulomb counter, is supposed to be a better method, than
> "just watching the battery voltage". That's why the method
> exists. The fuel gauge equation is rather complicated, when
> all parameters are in usage.
>
> A pack design could be ruined, by providing 700mAH cells
> instead of the 10000mAH promised, so there is that aspect
> of pack design. I do not know how your new pack, would
> compare to the runtime of the original pack. It might be
> just 66% of the original. This is where the luck of the
> draw comes in, on pack purchase. "Did I get Panasonic cells?"
> or did I get the cheapest cells the market could provide ?

Bought two so-called 45N1007 batteries from the same seller, guess I'll
return at least one and look for another with better cells.

Since they're push-selling lithium (like drugs), there ought to be more
tests or ways to EXPOSE the good from the lesser lithium products.

>
> If the chemistry changed, from Lithium Cobalt to Lithium
> Iron Phosphate, that would be bad, since the laptop charger
> chip *assumes* a certain chemistry. At least the cell
> chemistry had better be a close match, if you expect
> to get more than a month out of the pack.
>
> *******
>
> This is one reason my UPS does not have a battery today (dead).
> I bought a "branded" spare from the computer store. It
> lasted three years. Three cells of six cells, failed short
> circuit. This is obviously a fabrication error, and the
> pack wasn't even remotely close to being correct. The original
> pack lasted 11 years, and did not fail short. All cells working,
> but just knackered on plates (no functional capacity left). The
> original pack and the charger, behaved well with respect to
> one another. The replacement was a shambles. Shambolic. I
> only caught it in time, because I checked chassis temperature
> and I could feel heat. An SPS UPS should remain ice cold when not
> being on-battery. As soon as I felt heat one day, it was time to take
> it apart. A check with a multimeter, showed how close I was
> getting to a disaster.
>
> Who do I trust now, for a replacement battery pack for the thing ?
> Does the Pope make battery packs ? Is there an honest person
> left in this world ?
>
> Paul

On 04/20/2023 06:43 AM, Adam wrote:
> On 04/18/2023 05:10 AM, Paul wrote:
>> On 4/17/2023 11:55 PM, Adam wrote:
>>> On 04/17/2023 04:31 PM, Adam wrote:
>>>> On 04/17/2023 03:57 PM, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>
>>>>> The circuit board that balances charging voltages between individual
>>>>> cells might be a clone engineered not to burst into flames (or
>>>>> not!) or
>>>>> it might even be a genuine board recycled from an original, to play
>>>>> nicely with whatever firmware locks Lenovo have built into the laptop.
>>>
>>> Condition: New
>>>
>>> It's doesn't say "refurbished" or "recycled".
>>
>> The design is pretty simple.
>>
>> + ----- cells ----- - (there could be a BMS PCB disc, preventing
>> certain things)
>>
>> (bus) --/-- EEPROM based
>> coulomb counter chip ---- (old ones also had status
>> LEDs on the pack and a status button)
>> serialized
>>
>> The coulomb counter, not only does it keep track of watt-hours
>> remaining, it also has a set of coefficients which estimate
>> how the cells age.
>>
>> A competent battery pack design, puts the correct coefficients
>> in the coulomb counter chip. After 200 charges, the pack has
>> 5% less capacity, and the coulomb counter "deducts the damage"
>> from readings, to give a more true indication of charge remaining.
>> So maybe instead of "90 minute remaining", it says "85 minutes
>> remaining".
>>
>> The laptop is responsible for filling the cells, and "charge
>> termination".
>> The charging process monitors only pack voltage and current flow,
>> to conclude when a cell is full. Charging does not rely upon
>> coulomb counter integrity. If you took a hacksaw, and cut off
>> the coulomb counter, charging would continue to work properly.
>>
>> From a safety point of view, whether the coulomb counter is
>> there, is accurate or inaccurate, does not matter. The charge
>> management chip, knows all and sees all. The charge management
>> chip, is responsible for not setting fire to your house.
>>
>> The coulomb counter is your "fuel gauge", and helps you manage
>> your usage behavior with regard to data integrity. Some packs,
>> when they get old, the pack "flattens" so quickly, the fuel
>> gauge is not able to give an accurate indication that something
>> should be done. And the file system could receive a dirty
>> shutdown (not a big problem for EXT4, but maybe a problem
>> for your lost work).
>>
>> When a Chinese guy builds a pack (fake or otherwise), he may use
>> the correct part number for the coulomb counter chip. But whether the
>> actual cell wear characteristic matches the coefficients in the
>> fuel gauge, who knows. It's possible the time remaining is
>> not accurate. While occasionally fully draining the pack, and
>> fully filling the pack, can help "calibrate it", this does not
>> necessarily correct any coefficients which estimate wear rates.
>>
>> Were these things done, just to make the pack "complicated" ?
>> Probably :-)
>>
>> The coulomb counter, is supposed to be a better method, than
>> "just watching the battery voltage". That's why the method
>> exists. The fuel gauge equation is rather complicated, when
>> all parameters are in usage.
>>
>> A pack design could be ruined, by providing 700mAH cells
>> instead of the 10000mAH promised, so there is that aspect
>> of pack design. I do not know how your new pack, would
>> compare to the runtime of the original pack. It might be
>> just 66% of the original. This is where the luck of the
>> draw comes in, on pack purchase. "Did I get Panasonic cells?"
>> or did I get the cheapest cells the market could provide ?
>
> Bought two so-called 45N1007 batteries from the same seller, guess I'll
> return at least one and look for another with better cells.
>
> Since they're push-selling lithium (like drugs), there ought to be more
> tests or ways to EXPOSE the good from the lesser lithium products.

One way to fight back may be to post results of...

$ upower -i $(upower -e | grep 'BAT')

on reviews.

>
>>
>> If the chemistry changed, from Lithium Cobalt to Lithium
>> Iron Phosphate, that would be bad, since the laptop charger
>> chip *assumes* a certain chemistry. At least the cell
>> chemistry had better be a close match, if you expect
>> to get more than a month out of the pack.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> This is one reason my UPS does not have a battery today (dead).
>> I bought a "branded" spare from the computer store. It
>> lasted three years. Three cells of six cells, failed short
>> circuit. This is obviously a fabrication error, and the
>> pack wasn't even remotely close to being correct. The original
>> pack lasted 11 years, and did not fail short. All cells working,
>> but just knackered on plates (no functional capacity left). The
>> original pack and the charger, behaved well with respect to
>> one another. The replacement was a shambles. Shambolic. I
>> only caught it in time, because I checked chassis temperature
>> and I could feel heat. An SPS UPS should remain ice cold when not
>> being on-battery. As soon as I felt heat one day, it was time to take
>> it apart. A check with a multimeter, showed how close I was
>> getting to a disaster.
>>
>> Who do I trust now, for a replacement battery pack for the thing ?
>> Does the Pope make battery packs ? Is there an honest person
>> left in this world ?
>>
>> Paul
>