On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 12:30:05 AM UTC-6, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Sep 2020 19:35:22 -0400
> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Or even (shhh) OS/X.

> I don't think you can do that legally.

Well, he did say "shhh", so I think he knows that.

My response, though, is simpler: what would be the point?

If Microsoft wants to control how you use your computer, Apple is
even worse in this regard. The reason some people are hesitant
to go with Linux instead of Windows is because of the availability
of software; the limited market share of the Macintosh means that it
has a similar problem.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that I wouldn't accept a Macintosh if
they were giving them away. At least on an Intel Mac, I could always
install Windows. When it comes to pirating OS X to make a "hackintosh",
though, that particular option doesn't come up, so that's one form of
Macintosh that indeed I am not interested in even though it's being
"given away" in a sense.

John Savard

On 02/07/2021 17:36, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 12:30:05 AM UTC-6, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Sat, 05 Sep 2020 19:35:22 -0400
>> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Or even (shhh) OS/X.
>
>> I don't think you can do that legally.
>
> Well, he did say "shhh", so I think he knows that.
>
> My response, though, is simpler: what would be the point?
>
> If Microsoft wants to control how you use your computer, Apple is
> even worse in this regard. The reason some people are hesitant
> to go with Linux instead of Windows is because of the availability
> of software; the limited market share of the Macintosh means that it
> has a similar problem.

There must be sufficient of we retirees with relevant experience
and with no need of financial paybacks to provide the softwares
that are lacking in LINUX in comparison to Windows.

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 12:30:05 AM UTC-6, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Sat, 05 Sep 2020 19:35:22 -0400
>> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Or even (shhh) OS/X.
>
>> I don't think you can do that legally.
>
> Well, he did say "shhh", so I think he knows that.
>
> My response, though, is simpler: what would be the point?
>
> If Microsoft wants to control how you use your computer, Apple is
> even worse in this regard. The reason some people are hesitant
> to go with Linux instead of Windows is because of the availability
> of software; the limited market share of the Macintosh means that it
> has a similar problem.

I don’t get this at all. Yes there are some specialized packages that may
require win, but from my experience almost all general-purpose software is
either available for Linux or has an equivalent that is at least as good.

>
> I wouldn't go so far as to say that I wouldn't accept a Macintosh if
> they were giving them away. At least on an Intel Mac, I could always
> install Windows. When it comes to pirating OS X to make a "hackintosh",
> though, that particular option doesn't come up, so that's one form of
> Macintosh that indeed I am not interested in even though it's being
> "given away" in a sense.
>
> John Savard
>

--
Pete

On Fri, 2 Jul 2021 19:05:03 +0100
gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:

> There must be sufficient of we retirees with relevant experience
> and with no need of financial paybacks to provide the softwares
> that are lacking in LINUX in comparison to Windows.

Not when what is wanted is a bug-for-bug, UI feature for UI feature
duplicate of some commercial behemoth like say Adobe's suite of tools for
photographers. Just for editing there's the Gimp but professionals use
Photoshop and Lightroom and wouldn't touch anything else (at least that's
what the photographers I know tell me), similarly musicians and recording
studio folks tend to want Ableton and nothing else will do. These people
have jobs to do and want to use the tools they know and trust. There are
thousands of other examples in more specialised fields from accountancy to
aircraft design by way of choreography, interior design and zoo management.

Like it or not pretty much every company that invests heavily in
producing a top class piece of software for professionals or industry
niches is going to put it on Windows first, maybe Mac and nothing else
unless it is dead easy and unsupported and no bunch of enthusiasts is going
to come near them because it's like chasing a Ferrari down the Autobahn on
a bicycle.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

On 02/07/2021 21:44, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Jul 2021 19:05:03 +0100
> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> There must be sufficient of we retirees with relevant experience
>> and with no need of financial paybacks to provide the softwares
>> that are lacking in LINUX in comparison to Windows.

....

> Like it or not pretty much every company that invests heavily in
> producing a top class piece of software for professionals or industry
> niches is going to put it on Windows first, maybe Mac and nothing else
> unless it is dead easy and unsupported and no bunch of enthusiasts is going
> to come near them because it's like chasing a Ferrari down the Autobahn on
> a bicycle.

Do I detect a whiff of vested interest?

But we're not a bunch of enthusiasts; we're retirees who are every bit
experienced, competent and professional as those still in employment and
maybe even more so!

We're of an age when we were selected for our natural ability, many
from non-computing professions whereas
many of today's programmers are clueless about anything other than C
and had to be taught even about that.

On Friday, July 2, 2021 at 5:00:02 PM UTC-4, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Jul 2021 19:05:03 +0100
> gareth evans <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > There must be sufficient of we retirees with relevant experience
> > and with no need of financial paybacks to provide the softwares
> > that are lacking in LINUX in comparison to Windows.
> Not when what is wanted is a bug-for-bug, UI feature for UI feature
> duplicate of some commercial behemoth like say Adobe's suite of tools for
> photographers. Just for editing there's the Gimp but professionals use
> Photoshop and Lightroom and wouldn't touch anything else (at least that's
> what the photographers I know tell me), similarly musicians and recording
> studio folks tend to want Ableton and nothing else will do. These people
> have jobs to do and want to use the tools they know and trust. There are
> thousands of other examples in more specialised fields from accountancy to
> aircraft design by way of choreography, interior design and zoo management.
>
> Like it or not pretty much every company that invests heavily in
> producing a top class piece of software for professionals or industry
> niches is going to put it on Windows first, maybe Mac and nothing else
> unless it is dead easy and unsupported and no bunch of enthusiasts is going
> to come near them because it's like chasing a Ferrari down the Autobahn on
> a bicycle.
>
> --
> Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
> C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
> The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
> You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

Really... Windows first?

I am (semi-retired) and working for a emergency services company.

Fire Dispatch service, including mapping, gis, gps services. We deliver both hardware
and software. Linux for servers, and linux preferred for clients. Windows is supported,
but is a pain. In-truck systems are typically Windows.

And, yes, we are professional -- as in, "system cannot fail", ever. Internet down? Still
works, Power goes out? Stil works? Server is destroyed by earthquake? Still works.
365x7x24. Linux for the servers, and MOST clients. Windows only for some of the
"edge".
We are not "enthusiasts", driving a Ferrari. Its more like a truck. And -- yes, we typically
have 3 or 4 30 inch 4k monitors tied to a single client, doing dispatch. And, of course,
completely redundant servers, switches. Multiple links so that a cable break doesn't
matter. Windows? Hard to get everything together.

On 2021-07-02, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> If Microsoft wants to control how you use your computer, Apple is
>> even worse in this regard. The reason some people are hesitant
>> to go with Linux instead of Windows is because of the availability
>> of software; the limited market share of the Macintosh means that it
>> has a similar problem.
>
> I don’t get this at all. Yes there are some specialized packages that may
> require win, but from my experience almost all general-purpose software is
> either available for Linux or has an equivalent that is at least as good.

steveo@eircom.net addressed this in a subsequent posting:

> On Fri, 2 Jul 2021 19:05:03 +0100
> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> There must be sufficient of we retirees with relevant experience
>> and with no need of financial paybacks to provide the softwares
>> that are lacking in LINUX in comparison to Windows.
>
> Not when what is wanted is a bug-for-bug, UI feature for
> UI feature duplicate of some commercial behemoth like say Adobe's
> suite of tools for photographers.

People don't want to switch to a package that works better.
They want something that works exactly like the one they're
used to - warts and all.

>> I wouldn't go so far as to say that I wouldn't accept a Macintosh
>> if they were giving them away.

I would. Any time I have to do something on my wife's Macbook,
I get the impression that I'm not so much using the system as
it is using me.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

In article <sbnvob$4ka$1@dont-email.me>,
gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 02/07/2021 21:44, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Fri, 2 Jul 2021 19:05:03 +0100
>> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> There must be sufficient of we retirees with relevant experience
>>> and with no need of financial paybacks to provide the softwares
>>> that are lacking in LINUX in comparison to Windows.
>
>...
>
>> Like it or not pretty much every company that invests heavily in
>> producing a top class piece of software for professionals or industry
>> niches is going to put it on Windows first, maybe Mac and nothing else
>> unless it is dead easy and unsupported and no bunch of enthusiasts is going
>> to come near them because it's like chasing a Ferrari down the Autobahn on
>> a bicycle.
>
>Do I detect a whiff of vested interest?
>
>But we're not a bunch of enthusiasts; we're retirees who are every bit
>experienced, competent and professional as those still in employment and
>maybe even more so!
>
>We're of an age when we were selected for our natural ability, many
>from non-computing professions whereas
>many of today's programmers are clueless about anything other than C
>and had to be taught even about that.
>
>

I don't think many of "today's" programmers know a whit of C.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On 7/2/2021 4:16 PM, gareth evans wrote:
> On 02/07/2021 21:44, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Fri, 2 Jul 2021 19:05:03 +0100
>> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> There must be sufficient of we retirees with relevant experience
>>> and  with no need of financial paybacks to provide the softwares
>>> that are lacking in LINUX in comparison to Windows.
>
> ...
>
>>     Like it or not pretty much every company that invests heavily in
>> producing a top class piece of software for professionals or industry
>> niches is going to put it on Windows first, maybe Mac and nothing else
>> unless it is dead easy and unsupported and no bunch of enthusiasts
>> is going
>> to come near them because it's like chasing a Ferrari down the
>> Autobahn on
>> a bicycle.
>
> Do I detect a whiff of vested interest?
>
> But we're not a bunch of enthusiasts; we're retirees who are every bit
> experienced, competent and professional as those still in employment
> and maybe even more so!

That's true. But the retirees (and others), scattered around the world
without much in the way of organization, are competing against a
thousand programmers/engineers/etc. who are willing to spend 8hr/day
on a project, working in unison. People who can be counted on to show
up for another 8 hr tomorrow, because their paycheck depends on it. I
think maybe the retirees et al. provide more bang per hour for the
buck, but they are often going in different directions.

It's not insurmountable odds, but they're pretty steep. Linus manages
to keep a herd working together, but a significant fraction of the
herd is actually paid by their employer to do the work. I do worry
about what will happen when Linus reaches the end of his service life.

>
> We're of an age when we were selected for our natural ability, many
> from non-computing professions whereas
> many of today's programmers are clueless about anything other than C
> and had to be taught even about that.
>
>

On 03/07/2021 00:28, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
> People don't want to switch to a package that works better.
> They want something that works exactly like the one they're
> used to - warts and all.

Come back, Windows XP! All is forgiven!

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>On Fri, 2 Jul 2021 19:05:03 +0100
>gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> There must be sufficient of we retirees with relevant experience
>> and with no need of financial paybacks to provide the softwares
>> that are lacking in LINUX in comparison to Windows.
>
> Not when what is wanted is a bug-for-bug, UI feature for UI feature
>duplicate of some commercial behemoth like say Adobe's suite of tools for
>photographers. Just for editing there's the Gimp but professionals use
>Photoshop and Lightroom and wouldn't touch anything else (at least that's
>what the photographers I know tell me), similarly musicians and recording
>studio folks tend to want Ableton and nothing else will do. These people
>have jobs to do and want to use the tools they know and trust. There are
>thousands of other examples in more specialised fields from accountancy to
>aircraft design by way of choreography, interior design and zoo management.

There are many counter-examples of linux versions that are widely
used amongst professionals (some of which even use Gimp). Blender
comes to mind, as well as a number of engineering libraries and
applications. R.

Most of the chip design tools run on linux as first class platforms
with windows a distant (very very very) second.

On 2021-07-03, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 03/07/2021 00:28, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> People don't want to switch to a package that works better.
>> They want something that works exactly like the one they're
>> used to - warts and all.
>
> Come back, Windows XP! All is forgiven!

That's why it lives on in a VM on my Linux boxes, for times
when I must use Windows (e.g. development). IMHO Windows'
usability peaked somewhere between 2000 and XP, and has been
going downhill ever since.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 10:21:58 +0100, gareth evans wrote:
>
> On 03/07/2021 00:28, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>> People don't want to switch to a package that works better.
>> They want something that works exactly like the one they're
>> used to - warts and all.
>
> Come back, Windows XP! All is forgiven!

WTH?

Come back CP/M, all is forgiven. :-D
--
Andreas

gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 03/07/2021 00:28, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>> People don't want to switch to a package that works better.
>> They want something that works exactly like the one they're
>> used to - warts and all.
>
> Come back, Windows XP! All is forgiven!
>

XP was a great improvement on all its successors.

(don’t think I posted this already) I finally bit the bullet and installed
XP ON virtualbox on Linux for occasional access to a couple of programs. I
have an old game CD I used to like, I may install that, too.

--
Pete

On Sat, 03 Jul 2021 17:35:37 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
> >On Fri, 2 Jul 2021 19:05:03 +0100
> >gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> There must be sufficient of we retirees with relevant experience
> >> and with no need of financial paybacks to provide the softwares
> >> that are lacking in LINUX in comparison to Windows.
> >
> > Not when what is wanted is a bug-for-bug, UI feature for UI
> > feature
> >duplicate of some commercial behemoth like say Adobe's suite of tools for
> >photographers. Just for editing there's the Gimp but professionals use
> >Photoshop and Lightroom and wouldn't touch anything else (at least that's
> >what the photographers I know tell me), similarly musicians and recording
> >studio folks tend to want Ableton and nothing else will do. These people
> >have jobs to do and want to use the tools they know and trust. There are
> >thousands of other examples in more specialised fields from accountancy
> >to aircraft design by way of choreography, interior design and zoo
> >management.
>
> There are many counter-examples of linux versions that are widely

There is a scant handful of examples compared to the nearly
complete vertical market coverage of Windows.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

On Friday, July 2, 2021 at 12:28:57 PM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> > If Microsoft wants to control how you use your computer, Apple is
> > even worse in this regard. The reason some people are hesitant
> > to go with Linux instead of Windows is because of the availability
> > of software; the limited market share of the Macintosh means that it
> > has a similar problem.

> I don’t get this at all. Yes there are some specialized packages that may
> require win, but from my experience almost all general-purpose software is
> either available for Linux or has an equivalent that is at least as good.

The most immediately obvious counterexample to this would be games.

Yes, in some areas, there is better software available free for Linux than
is available paid for Windows. And a few applications, like Firefox or
Mathematica are available for both. Many Linux programs can be made
to run on Windows - one can get a Cygwin version or a WSL version - and
for Linux there's Wine.

But while there's definitely overlap in functionality, Linux definitely has
an advantage in some areas, like development tools, but programs aimed
at the consumer are aimed at Windows.

John Savard

On Saturday, July 3, 2021 at 3:22:00 AM UTC-6, gareth evans wrote:
> On 03/07/2021 00:28, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> > People don't want to switch to a package that works better.
> > They want something that works exactly like the one they're
> > used to - warts and all.

> Come back, Windows XP! All is forgiven!

Or at least Windows 7.

John Savard

On Tue, 6 Jul 2021 04:36:05 -0700 (PDT)
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Saturday, July 3, 2021 at 3:22:00 AM UTC-6, gareth evans wrote:
> > On 03/07/2021 00:28, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
> > > People don't want to switch to a package that works better.
> > > They want something that works exactly like the one they're
> > > used to - warts and all.
>
> > Come back, Windows XP! All is forgiven!
>
> Or at least Windows 7.
>
> John Savard

This is AFC, right? (posted from an XP machine).

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 2021-07-06, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Saturday, July 3, 2021 at 3:22:00 AM UTC-6, gareth evans wrote:
>> On 03/07/2021 00:28, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> People don't want to switch to a package that works better.
>>> They want something that works exactly like the one they're
>>> used to - warts and all.
>>
>> Come back, Windows XP! All is forgiven!
>
> Or at least Windows 7.

Win7 and I have bad chemistry. (This goes in spades for
later versions.) If I absolutely must run a package that
needs Win7, I re-boot the laptop I'm writing this on. The
laptop (a refurbished Lenovo T410) originally came with Win7,
which took up the entire 250GB drive. I shrank it down to 45GB
(thank you, PerfectDisk) and installed Debian in a dual-boot
configuration. Most Windows stuff I have to use runs under
XP, which I have running in VirtualBox. As someone once said,
the nice thing about having Microsoft in a window is that you
can close it. :-)

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana