Just wondering, will TB survive?

--
Ken
MacOS 10.14.6
Windows 10 21H2
Firefox 101.0.1
Thunderbird 102.3.3
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

"Snowshed." <kcomptutor@q.com> wrote:

> Just wondering, will TB survive?

Nothing survives forever. Give a date range within which you want
Thunderbird to survive. Then consider past claims that it was dead.

Snowshed. wrote:
> Just wondering, will TB survive?

One line of meaningless question followed by four empty lines and ending
with a seven line long sigature stating "My brain is like lightning, a quick
flash and it's gone!" says all.

On 2024-02-10 02:22, Snowshed. wrote:
> Just wondering, will TB survive?

Will you be around next century?

On 10.02.24 03:22, Snowshed. wrote:
> Just wondering, will TB survive?
>
>
>
>
> -- Ken MacOS 10.14.6 Windows 10 21H2 Firefox 101.0.1 Thunderbird 102.3.3
> "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!"

Are you serious?
BTW: Your sig is non-standard and a serious reputational risk for you.

--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

On 10 Feb 2024 03:22, Snowshed. wrote:
> Just wondering, will TB survive?

If Mozilla with their Firefox product go bankrupt, TB will have a hard time since
the carpet (platform code) will be drawn from underneath its feet. So the more
interesting question is: Will Firefox and Mozilla survive?

--
Viele Grüße, Jörg
Sent with Betterbird. Simply better.
www.betterbird.eu - www.betterbird.eu/#featuretable
Es ist immer wieder erstaunlich: Kaum macht man's richtig, schon funktioniert's!

Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> On 10.02.24 03:22, Snowshed. wrote:
>> Just wondering, will TB survive?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Ken MacOS 10.14.6 Windows 10 21H2 Firefox 101.0.1 Thunderbird 102.3.3
>> "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!"
>
> Are you serious?
> BTW: Your sig is non-standard and a serious reputational risk for you.
>
And your sig is a misquote of St Augustine.
Ed

Jörg Knobloch wrote:
> If Mozilla with their Firefox product go bankrupt, TB will have a hard
> time since the carpet (platform code) will be drawn from underneath its
> feet. So the more interesting question is: Will Firefox and Mozilla
> survive?
Depends how much of MoCo's resources get redeployed towards AI ...

On 10 Feb 2024 10:30, Andy Burns wrote:
> Depends how much of MoCo's resources get redeployed towards AI ...

Right, I read that they want to get into AI now. They're also hoping that the
European Union will protect the smaller players.

--
Viele Grüße, Jörg
Sent with Betterbird. Simply better.
www.betterbird.eu - www.betterbird.eu/#featuretable
Es ist immer wieder erstaunlich: Kaum macht man's richtig, schon funktioniert's!

Jörg Knobloch <jorgk@jorgk.com> Wrote in message:

> On 10 Feb 2024 03:22, Snowshed. wrote:
>> Just wondering, will TB survive?
>
> If Mozilla with their Firefox product go bankrupt, TB will have a hard time since
> the carpet (platform code) will be drawn from underneath its feet. So the more
> interesting question is: Will Firefox and Mozilla survive?

Firefox - no. Hopefully the TB team have a contingency plan. And BB?
<https://www.theregister.com/2024/02/09/opinion_column_mozilla_ceo_quits/>

There's K9, of course: a boat with which to leave the Crumbling
Platform.

Who will be most affected if TB were to disappear? Guessing from
the stats of my 'Limit non-BCC recipients' addon, small
businesses and organisations in Germany and Poland who make up
most users.
--
Remove numerics from my email address.

On 10.02.24 10:16, Ed Cryer wrote:
> Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> On 10.02.24 03:22, Snowshed. wrote:
>>> Just wondering, will TB survive?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Ken MacOS 10.14.6 Windows 10 21H2 Firefox 101.0.1 Thunderbird 102.3.3
>>> "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!"
>>
>> Are you serious?
>> BTW: Your sig is non-standard and a serious reputational risk for you.
>>
>
> And your sig is a misquote of St Augustine.

Total nonsense.

--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> On 10.02.24 10:16, Ed Cryer wrote:
>> Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> On 10.02.24 03:22, Snowshed. wrote:
>>>> Just wondering, will TB survive?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- Ken MacOS 10.14.6 Windows 10 21H2 Firefox 101.0.1 Thunderbird 102.3.3
>>>> "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!"
>>>
>>> Are you serious?
>>> BTW: Your sig is non-standard and a serious reputational risk for you.
>>>
>>
>> And your sig is a misquote of St Augustine.
>
> Total nonsense.
>
Produce the source, defiler of a great man's reputation!
I'll give you a little helping hand here, to help you over your
blustering ignorance.
Try Sermon 131.
Ed

Ed

Jorg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>On 10.02.24 10:16, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>Jorg Lorenz wrote:

>>>>. . .

>>>Are you serious?
>>>BTW: Your sig is non-standard and a serious reputational risk for you.

>>And your sig is a misquote of St Augustine.

>Total nonsense.

>--
>"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

Isn't there a final "est"?

"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> Wrote in message:

> Jorg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>>On 10.02.24 10:16, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>>Jorg Lorenz wrote:
>
>>>>>. . .
>
>>>>Are you serious?
>>>>BTW: Your sig is non-standard and a serious reputational risk for you.
>
>>>And your sig is a misquote of St Augustine.
>
>>Total nonsense.
>
>>--
>>"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)
>
> Isn't there a final "est"?

Licentia poetica.
--
Remove numerics from my email address.

Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote:
>"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> Wrote in message:
>>Jorg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>On 10.02.24 10:16, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>>>Jorg Lorenz wrote:

>>>>>>. . .

>>>>>Are you serious?
>>>>>BTW: Your sig is non-standard and a serious reputational risk for you.

>>>>And your sig is a misquote of St Augustine.

>>>Total nonsense.

>>>--
>>>"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

>>Isn't there a final "est"?

>Licentia poetica.

Heh

I gotta say that a Usenet discussion going down a tangent about whether
a quote was messed up in reference to a debate between Augustine, who
objected to Pelagius's philosophy that there was no original sin,
resulting in Pelagius being excommunicated, is an outstanding tangent.
I had to look it up.

Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote:
>> "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> Wrote in message:
>>> Jorg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>> On 10.02.24 10:16, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>>>> Jorg Lorenz wrote:
>
>>>>>>> . . .
>
>>>>>> Are you serious?
>>>>>> BTW: Your sig is non-standard and a serious reputational risk for you.
>
>>>>> And your sig is a misquote of St Augustine.
>
>>>> Total nonsense.
>
>>>> --
>>>> "Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)
>
>>> Isn't there a final "est"?
>
>> Licentia poetica.
>
> Heh
>
> I gotta say that a Usenet discussion going down a tangent about whether
> a quote was messed up in reference to a debate between Augustine, who
> objected to Pelagius's philosophy that there was no original sin,
> resulting in Pelagius being excommunicated, is an outstanding tangent.
> I had to look it up.

Well done, man. I appreciate your endeavour. It's commendable.
There are people who grab Latin quotes off the Net, and use them like
banners carried into war. But those quotes are often false.
This one from Aurelius Augustinus carries the banner of fascism, but if
you look at the source it's far from that.

There are people who stood at the crossroads of history. There are some
who were highly intelligent and articulate, and have left us their
opinions about the passing parade of rise and fall.
Augustine lived at the joint of Roman world and the Middle Ages. And he
had a lot to say.

Ed

Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:
>Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote:
>>>Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> Wrote in message:
>>>>Jorg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>>On 10.02.24 10:16, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>>>>>Jorg Lorenz wrote:

>>>>>>>>. . .

>>>>>>>Are you serious?
>>>>>>>BTW: Your sig is non-standard and a serious reputational risk for you.

>>>>>>And your sig is a misquote of St Augustine.

>>>>>Total nonsense.

>>>>>--
>>>>>"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

>>>>Isn't there a final "est"?

>>>Licentia poetica.

>>Heh

>>I gotta say that a Usenet discussion going down a tangent about whether
>>a quote was messed up in reference to a debate between Augustine, who
>>objected to Pelagius's philosophy that there was no original sin,
>>resulting in Pelagius being excommunicated, is an outstanding tangent.
>>I had to look it up.

>Well done, man. I appreciate your endeavour. It's commendable.
>There are people who grab Latin quotes off the Net, and use them like
>banners carried into war. But those quotes are often false.
>This one from Aurelius Augustinus carries the banner of fascism, but if
>you look at the source it's far from that.

Additional points:

1) If the Pope hadn't backed his position, he may not have said it.

2) Original sin was a relatively new philosophy at the time. Pelagius
didn't like the illogic of sins of the father passing on to the son, and
furthermore objected to the notion of a perfect God creating human life
in imperfection. The matter of humans being born into sin was worthy of debate.

3) A philosophical debate resulted in Pelagiuis being condemned as a
heretic for not going with the flow, eventually resulting in his
excommunication? Shudder. What was wrong with these men?

4) A successor Pope tried to reverse the excommunication but backed off
due to pressure from African bishops. Augustine's quote did not apply.

>There are people who stood at the crossroads of history. There are some
>who were highly intelligent and articulate, and have left us their
>opinions about the passing parade of rise and fall.
>Augustine lived at the joint of Roman world and the Middle Ages. And he
>had a lot to say.

Yes he was, and he was an eminently quoteable writer. But I'm not going
to agree with his position here. Looks like the Pope isn't free to
excommunicate me as I'm not even Catholic.

On 10.02.24 19:43, Ed Cryer wrote:
> Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> On 10.02.24 10:16, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>> Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>> On 10.02.24 03:22, Snowshed. wrote:
>>>>> Just wondering, will TB survive?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Ken MacOS 10.14.6 Windows 10 21H2 Firefox 101.0.1 Thunderbird 102.3.3
>>>>> "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!"
>>>>
>>>> Are you serious?
>>>> BTW: Your sig is non-standard and a serious reputational risk for you.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And your sig is a misquote of St Augustine.
>>
>> Total nonsense.
>>
>
> Produce the source, defiler of a great man's reputation!
> I'll give you a little helping hand here, to help you over your
> blustering ignorance.
> Try Sermon 131.

I have no time for your trollish bigotry.
And you are OT anyway.
EOD

--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> On 10.02.24 19:43, Ed Cryer wrote:
>> Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> On 10.02.24 10:16, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>>> Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>>> On 10.02.24 03:22, Snowshed. wrote:
>>>>>> Just wondering, will TB survive?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- Ken MacOS 10.14.6 Windows 10 21H2 Firefox 101.0.1 Thunderbird 102.3.3
>>>>>> "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!"
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you serious?
>>>>> BTW: Your sig is non-standard and a serious reputational risk for you.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And your sig is a misquote of St Augustine.
>>>
>>> Total nonsense.
>>>
>>
>> Produce the source, defiler of a great man's reputation!
>> I'll give you a little helping hand here, to help you over your
>> blustering ignorance.
>> Try Sermon 131.
>
> I have no time for your trollish bigotry.
> And you are OT anyway.
> EOD
>
Be an idiot then, and see how you get treated.
Ed

Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:
>> Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>> Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote:
>>>> Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> Wrote in message:
>>>>> Jorg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 10.02.24 10:16, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>>>>>> Jorg Lorenz wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>> . . .
>
>>>>>>>> Are you serious?
>>>>>>>> BTW: Your sig is non-standard and a serious reputational risk for you.
>
>>>>>>> And your sig is a misquote of St Augustine.
>
>>>>>> Total nonsense.
>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> "Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)
>
>>>>> Isn't there a final "est"?
>
>>>> Licentia poetica.
>
>>> Heh
>
>>> I gotta say that a Usenet discussion going down a tangent about whether
>>> a quote was messed up in reference to a debate between Augustine, who
>>> objected to Pelagius's philosophy that there was no original sin,
>>> resulting in Pelagius being excommunicated, is an outstanding tangent.
>>> I had to look it up.
>
>> Well done, man. I appreciate your endeavour. It's commendable.
>> There are people who grab Latin quotes off the Net, and use them like
>> banners carried into war. But those quotes are often false.
>> This one from Aurelius Augustinus carries the banner of fascism, but if
>> you look at the source it's far from that.
>
> Additional points:
>
> 1) If the Pope hadn't backed his position, he may not have said it.
>
> 2) Original sin was a relatively new philosophy at the time. Pelagius
> didn't like the illogic of sins of the father passing on to the son, and
> furthermore objected to the notion of a perfect God creating human life
> in imperfection. The matter of humans being born into sin was worthy of debate.
>
> 3) A philosophical debate resulted in Pelagiuis being condemned as a
> heretic for not going with the flow, eventually resulting in his
> excommunication? Shudder. What was wrong with these men?
>
> 4) A successor Pope tried to reverse the excommunication but backed off
> due to pressure from African bishops. Augustine's quote did not apply.
>
>> There are people who stood at the crossroads of history. There are some
>> who were highly intelligent and articulate, and have left us their
>> opinions about the passing parade of rise and fall.
>> Augustine lived at the joint of Roman world and the Middle Ages. And he
>> had a lot to say.
>
> Yes he was, and he was an eminently quoteable writer. But I'm not going
> to agree with his position here. Looks like the Pope isn't free to
> excommunicate me as I'm not even Catholic.

But the dispute here is about Augustine's attitude to all this ancient
controversy around Christian heresies. And what Augustine actually wrote
was "Iam enim de hac causa duo concilia missa sunt ad sedem apostolicam;
inde etiam rescripta venerunt; causa finita est: Utinam aliquando
finiatur error".
Which is far from the misquote given. He didn't like the Pelagian
theology, but he didn't dismiss it in such a fascist way.

Ed

On 10 Feb 2024 12:37, Dave Royal wrote:
>> Will Firefox and Mozilla survive?
> Firefox - no. Hopefully the TB team have a contingency plan. And BB?

As far as I can see, TB don't have a contingency plan. In fact, they are driving
deeper and deeper into Mozilla technologies.

In the olden days, the frontend was written in XUL and JS, the backend in C++.
Nowadays, the frontend is written in (X)HTML and JS, some of the backend was also
rewritten in JS, reducing the C++ content. These days, TB is moving to Rust, which
causes more risk. If the contingency were to port the frontend to the Chrome
engine Blink, then using Rust is not a useful direction.

But hey, the TB folks are splashing donation money on what they consider to be a
cool new technology.

> Who will be most affected if TB were to disappear?

Many small to medium size businesses, NGOs, universities, public and government
organisation, advanced private mail users.

--
Viele Grüße, Jörg
Sent with Betterbird. Simply better.
www.betterbird.eu - www.betterbird.eu/#featuretable
Es ist immer wieder erstaunlich: Kaum macht man's richtig, schon funktioniert's!

Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:
>Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:
>>>Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>>>Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote:
>>>>>Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> Wrote:
>>>>>>Jorg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>On 10.02.24 10:16, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>>>>>>>Jorg Lorenz wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>. . .

>>>>>>>>>Are you serious?
>>>>>>>>>BTW: Your sig is non-standard and a serious reputational risk for you.

>>>>>>>>And your sig is a misquote of St Augustine.

>>>>>>>Total nonsense.

>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

>>>>>>Isn't there a final "est"?

>>>>>Licentia poetica.

>>>>Heh

>>>>I gotta say that a Usenet discussion going down a tangent about whether
>>>>a quote was messed up in reference to a debate between Augustine, who
>>>>objected to Pelagius's philosophy that there was no original sin,
>>>>resulting in Pelagius being excommunicated, is an outstanding tangent.
>>>>I had to look it up.

>>>Well done, man. I appreciate your endeavour. It's commendable.
>>>There are people who grab Latin quotes off the Net, and use them like
>>>banners carried into war. But those quotes are often false.
>>>This one from Aurelius Augustinus carries the banner of fascism, but if
>>>you look at the source it's far from that.

>>Additional points:

>>1) If the Pope hadn't backed his position, he may not have said it.

>>2) Original sin was a relatively new philosophy at the time. Pelagius
>>didn't like the illogic of sins of the father passing on to the son,
>>and furthermore objected to the notion of a perfect God creating human
>>life in imperfection. The matter of humans being born into sin was
>>worthy of debate.

>>3) A philosophical debate resulted in Pelagiuis being condemned as a
>>heretic for not going with the flow, eventually resulting in his
>>excommunication? Shudder. What was wrong with these men?

>>4) A successor Pope tried to reverse the excommunication but backed off
>>due to pressure from African bishops. Augustine's quote did not apply.

>>>There are people who stood at the crossroads of history. There are some
>>>who were highly intelligent and articulate, and have left us their
>>>opinions about the passing parade of rise and fall.
>>>Augustine lived at the joint of Roman world and the Middle Ages. And he
>>>had a lot to say.

>>Yes he was, and he was an eminently quoteable writer. But I'm not going
>>to agree with his position here. Looks like the Pope isn't free to
>>excommunicate me as I'm not even Catholic.

>But the dispute here is about Augustine's attitude to all this ancient
>controversy around Christian heresies. And what Augustine actually wrote
>was "Iam enim de hac causa duo concilia missa sunt ad sedem apostolicam;
>inde etiam rescripta venerunt; causa finita est: Utinam aliquando
>finiatur error".
>Which is far from the misquote given. He didn't like the Pelagian
>theology, but he didn't dismiss it in such a fascist way.

Two councils upheld the new philosophy and Pelagiuis's. The Pope also
upheld it. Augustine had a very good idea how serious the consequences
would be for Pelagius. What if someone as well respected as Augustine
was the first prominent theologian to take the position that no harm
would befall the Church if some people drew their own conclusions about
religious doctrine?

Can you imagine Europe without century after century after century of
war, murder, oppression, ignorance, torture, all in the name of imposing
religion upon an unwilling people? Could the Age of Enlightenment have
been ushered in earlier, and would the Dark Ages have been a shorter
period or avoided altogether?

On 2024-02-10 21:47, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:
>> Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>> Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote:
>>>> Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> Wrote in message:
>>>>> Jorg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 10.02.24 10:16, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>>>>>> Jorg Lorenz wrote:

....

>>> I gotta say that a Usenet discussion going down a tangent about whether
>>> a quote was messed up in reference to a debate between Augustine, who
>>> objected to Pelagius's philosophy that there was no original sin,
>>> resulting in Pelagius being excommunicated, is an outstanding tangent.
>>> I had to look it up.
>
>> Well done, man. I appreciate your endeavour. It's commendable.
>> There are people who grab Latin quotes off the Net, and use them like
>> banners carried into war. But those quotes are often false.
>> This one from Aurelius Augustinus carries the banner of fascism, but if
>> you look at the source it's far from that.
>
> Additional points:
>
> 1) If the Pope hadn't backed his position, he may not have said it.
>
> 2) Original sin was a relatively new philosophy at the time. Pelagius
> didn't like the illogic of sins of the father passing on to the son, and
> furthermore objected to the notion of a perfect God creating human life
> in imperfection. The matter of humans being born into sin was worthy of debate.
>
> 3) A philosophical debate resulted in Pelagiuis being condemned as a
> heretic for not going with the flow, eventually resulting in his
> excommunication? Shudder. What was wrong with these men?

He was lucky to be alive.

Christians in the Roman Empire were very intransigent. First they got an
emperor to protect freedom of religion. But in less than a century, on
emperor later, Christianity was the dominant religion and they exerted
violence towards non-Christians, and forgot about freedom of religion.
The freedom of religion decree was reverted by the emperor, IIRC.

And they exerted that intransigence for centuries, killing their (our)
opponents.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2024-02-11 00:02, Jörg Knobloch wrote:
> On 10 Feb 2024 12:37, Dave Royal wrote:
>>> Will Firefox and Mozilla survive?
>> Firefox - no. Hopefully the TB team have a contingency plan. And BB?
>
> As far as I can see, TB don't have a contingency plan. In fact, they are
> driving deeper and deeper into Mozilla technologies.
>
> In the olden days, the frontend was written in XUL and JS, the backend
> in C++. Nowadays, the frontend is written in (X)HTML and JS, some of the
> backend was also rewritten in JS, reducing the C++ content. These days,
> TB is moving to Rust, which causes more risk. If the contingency were to
> port the frontend to the Chrome engine Blink, then using Rust is not a
> useful direction.
>
> But hey, the TB folks are splashing donation money on what they consider
> to be a cool new technology.
>
>> Who will be most affected if TB were to disappear?
>
> Many small to medium size businesses, NGOs, universities, public and
> government organisation, advanced private mail users.

It would be disastrous for Linux. There is no similarly powerful mail
client.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2024-02-11 00:02, Jörg Knobloch wrote:
>> On 10 Feb 2024 12:37, Dave Royal wrote:
[..snip..]
>>> Who will be most affected if TB were to disappear?
>>
>> Many small to medium size businesses, NGOs, universities, public and
>> government organisation, advanced private mail users.
>
> It would be disastrous for Linux. There is no similarly powerful mail
> client.

"Disastrous for Linux" is a big word. Sylpheed and Sylpheed Claws still exist.
Also Evolution and KMail.