On 22/09/2021 00.20, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 9/21/2021 3:06 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 21/09/2021 23.50, T wrote:
>>> On 9/21/21 12:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office, and
>>>> its being free is a big advantage.
>>>
>>> Hi Ken,
>>>
>>> I have yet to get a single customer to adopt Libre Office
>>> (LO). They try for several weeks, then call me almost
>>> in tears and buy M$O from me.  At least they don't
>>> argue with me over the price!  SO the is a silver lining in
>>> it for me.
>>>
>>> Part of the issue it that it is not 100% identical to M$O
>>> keystroke wise.  But mostly it is the endless, stupid
>>> bugs LO won't fix as you can't afford to put them on your payroll.
>>>
>>> As far as the keystroke issue, Free Office (FO), is
>>> far better and a ton less buggy.  And they are
>>> responsive to fixing bugs, unlike LO.
>>>
>>> I personally use LO and FO  I could jump thorough
>>> flaming hoops with Wine and get M$O install on
>>> Linux, but I am not willing to pay the monopoly
>>> price for M$O.
>>
>> I can only say that I have been using solely LO for 20 years, and it
>> works for me. I'm certainly not going to pay MO, but I know people will.
>> I know people that are thrown back by trivial difficulties like
>> different menus or options, and want MO because that is what others use.
>
>
>
> Using what others use is the most important criterion for many (most?)
> people. Popularity is very important. As an example, many people will
> disagree with me, but as far as I'm concerned, despite its popularity,
> Microsoft Word is greatly inferior to WordPerfect.

Could be. I loved 5.1.

But in the 90's, the Windows versions of WP were horrible compared to
the 5.1 text veteran, so that much to my disgust, I had to abandon WP.
My colleagues wanted a graphical editor.

> I pay no attention to popularity. I choose what I like best (sometimes
> modified by price). Sometimes my choices are practically unknown by most
> people. Directory Opus is an example.

Me, I prefer software that uses open formats. The actual software is
irrelevant, but I want the files to be in an open format. And the other
criteria is that I do not pay if I can get it gratis... unless I have a
boss that pays. :-p

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 9/21/2021 3:18 PM, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 3:07 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 9/21/2021 2:50 PM, T wrote:
>>> On 9/21/21 12:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office, and
>>>> its being free is a big advantage.
>>>
>>> Hi Ken,
>>>
>>> I have yet to get a single customer to adopt Libre Office
>>> (LO). They try for several weeks, then call me almost
>>> in tears and buy M$O from me.  At least they don't
>>> argue with me over the price!  SO the is a silver lining in
>>> it for me.
>>>
>>> Part of the issue it that it is not 100% identical to M$O
>>> keystroke wise.  But mostly it is the endless, stupid
>>> bugs LO won't fix as you can't afford to put them on your payroll.
>>>
>>> As far as the keystroke issue, Free Office (FO), is
>>> far better and a ton less buggy.  And they are
>>> responsive to fixing bugs, unlike LO.
>>>
>>> I personally use LO and FO  I could jump thorough
>>> flaming hoops with Wine and get M$O install on
>>> Linux, but I am not willing to pay the monopoly
>>> price for M$O.
>>
>>
>> I have a copy of Microsoft Office 2016, which I got for free (legally,
>> but I won't go into how). As I said, the only thing I use it for is
>> Excel and I don't use that much.
>>
>> I think that both Open Office and Free Office are still installed here,
>> but since I never use either, I'm not sure. I know they were once
>> installed because I wanted to see what they were like.
>>
>> I use WordPerfect (which I also got for free legally) for word
>> processing and Thunderbird for e-mail, both of which I prefer to any
>> alternatives. Except for Excel, it's rare that I have a need for
>> anything else in an Office suite.
>>
>> Occasionally, I need to look a .doc or .docx file, but WordPerfect
>> handles them fine, as far as I'm concerned.
>
> Word Perfect is a great program.

Yes.

> .doc and .docx support
> was vastly improved after M$ bought Word Perfect.

??? Microsoft never bought WordPerfect. WordPerfect is owned by Corel.

--
Ken

On 9/21/21 4:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> Who prints envelopes today?:-D :-P
>
> Actually, I print envelopes, no problem. Figure out how your printer
> works, create a template, take notes, and do it always the same way.

LO is a nightmare for me and my Okidata B4350 printer.
Nothing lines up properly

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42327
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42326

In Word Pro it is just simple.

>
> I heard of people having problems.
>
> Tables? Like excel? Or in Write? I use them.

Tables in writer:

Deleting columns in a table can delete several columns if any cells in
that column are merged with other cells
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46733#c10

>
> What are "division tabs"?

Tabbed UI (Writer): Division/section-per-tab (similar to Lotus WordPro)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33173#c45

check the attachments for screen shots. Also note
the date I posted it

LO:

WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T
FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T
FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T
FIX. Put us on your payroll!

On 9/21/21 4:37 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> .doc and .docx support
>> was vastly improved after M$ bought Word Perfect.
>
>
>
> ??? Microsoft never bought WordPerfect. WordPerfect is owned by Corel.

I should have been more precise with my wording. M$ bought a lot of
Corel's stock:

https://www.zdnet.com/article/commentary-why-did-microsoft-really-buy-into-corel/

On 9/21/2021 4:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 22/09/2021 00.20, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 9/21/2021 3:06 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 21/09/2021 23.50, T wrote:
>>>> On 9/21/21 12:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office, and
>>>>> its being free is a big advantage.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Ken,
>>>>
>>>> I have yet to get a single customer to adopt Libre Office
>>>> (LO). They try for several weeks, then call me almost
>>>> in tears and buy M$O from me.  At least they don't
>>>> argue with me over the price!  SO the is a silver lining in
>>>> it for me.
>>>>
>>>> Part of the issue it that it is not 100% identical to M$O
>>>> keystroke wise.  But mostly it is the endless, stupid
>>>> bugs LO won't fix as you can't afford to put them on your payroll.
>>>>
>>>> As far as the keystroke issue, Free Office (FO), is
>>>> far better and a ton less buggy.  And they are
>>>> responsive to fixing bugs, unlike LO.
>>>>
>>>> I personally use LO and FO  I could jump thorough
>>>> flaming hoops with Wine and get M$O install on
>>>> Linux, but I am not willing to pay the monopoly
>>>> price for M$O.
>>>
>>> I can only say that I have been using solely LO for 20 years, and it
>>> works for me. I'm certainly not going to pay MO, but I know people will.
>>> I know people that are thrown back by trivial difficulties like
>>> different menus or options, and want MO because that is what others use.
>>
>>
>>
>> Using what others use is the most important criterion for many (most?)
>> people. Popularity is very important. As an example, many people will
>> disagree with me, but as far as I'm concerned, despite its popularity,
>> Microsoft Word is greatly inferior to WordPerfect.
>
> Could be. I loved 5.1.

It's improved over the years. But the last few version are almost
identical to each other. I'm running X7, which is now three versions
old, and I have no inclination to pay from an upgrade to the current
version. I would never notice a difference.

> But in the 90's, the Windows versions of WP were horrible compared to
> the 5.1 text veteran, so that much to my disgust, I had to abandon WP.
> My colleagues wanted a graphical editor.

Starting with WordPerfect 7.0 (1996), all release have been fine, as
far as I'm concerned.

>> I pay no attention to popularity. I choose what I like best (sometimes
>> modified by price). Sometimes my choices are practically unknown by most
>> people. Directory Opus is an example.
>
> Me, I prefer software that uses open formats. The actual software is
> irrelevant, but I want the files to be in an open format. And the other
> criteria is that I do not pay if I can get it gratis... unless I have a
> boss that pays. :-p
>
>

--
Ken

On 9/21/2021 4:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 22/09/2021 00.24, T wrote:
>> On 9/21/21 3:06 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 21/09/2021 23.50, T wrote:
>>>> On 9/21/21 12:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office, and
>>>>> its being free is a big advantage.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Ken,
>>>>
>>>> I have yet to get a single customer to adopt Libre Office
>>>> (LO). They try for several weeks, then call me almost
>>>> in tears and buy M$O from me.  At least they don't
>>>> argue with me over the price!  SO the is a silver lining in
>>>> it for me.
>>>>
>>>> Part of the issue it that it is not 100% identical to M$O
>>>> keystroke wise.  But mostly it is the endless, stupid
>>>> bugs LO won't fix as you can't afford to put them on your payroll.
>>>>
>>>> As far as the keystroke issue, Free Office (FO), is
>>>> far better and a ton less buggy.  And they are
>>>> responsive to fixing bugs, unlike LO.
>>>>
>>>> I personally use LO and FO  I could jump thorough
>>>> flaming hoops with Wine and get M$O install on
>>>> Linux, but I am not willing to pay the monopoly
>>>> price for M$O.
>>>
>>> I can only say that I have been using solely LO for 20 years, and it
>>> works for me. I'm certainly not going to pay MO, but I know people will.
>>> I know people that are thrown back by trivial difficulties like
>>> different menus or options, and want MO because that is what others use.
>>>
>>> I know also people that are unable to copy a file using the file
>>> explorer if an icon or menu is on a different corner of the screen...
>>>
>>>
>>
>> You must not use tables a lot or print envelopes
>> or need division tabs.
>
> Who prints envelopes today? :-D :-P

I don't. It's been many years since I printed one. I almost never send
anything by mail, and when I do, I hand-write the envelope.

--
Ken

On 9/21/2021 4:43 PM, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 4:37 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>
>>> .doc and .docx support
>>> was vastly improved after M$ bought Word Perfect.
>>
>>
>>
>> ??? Microsoft never bought WordPerfect. WordPerfect is owned by Corel.
>
> I should have been more precise with my wording. M$ bought a lot of
> Corel's stock:
>
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/commentary-why-did-microsoft-really-buy-into-corel/

OK.

--
Ken

On 9/21/21 4:50 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>
>> Who prints envelopes today? :-D :-P
>
>
> I don't. It's been many years since I printed one. I almost never send
> anything by mail, and when I do, I hand-write the envelope.

By hand is a pain in the butt. All my invoices go out
postal mail. I would email them, but I don't get paid
when I do. Postal service 999.99% of the time, I
get paid. Email: I go in the junk file as a scam
and I have to call after 30 days and ask them why
they are late. And I hae to resend with them on the
phone AAAAA HHHH !!!!

I have my data base set up to print their invoice out
from the databases address book. Very automated.
Various government agencies do not send out mailing
envelops anymore and my water bill too. I
have envelopes setup in Word Pro. Very slick.

On 22/09/2021 01.41, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 4:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> Who prints envelopes today?:-D  :-P
>>
>> Actually, I print envelopes, no problem. Figure out how your printer
>> works, create a template, take notes, and do it always the same way.
>
> LO is a nightmare for me and my Okidata B4350 printer.
>  Nothing lines up properly
>
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42327
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42326

Reporting bugzillas is a skill that takes learning ;-)

>
> In Word Pro it is just simple.

But you can not tell them that. The bug is reported for platform
"Linux", you can not mention "word pro" to them. If you had initially
created a bugzilla with "platform=windows", then you could mention "word
pro".

As a matter of fact, I know about this problem with the envelope
orientation because other people have it, and I myself encountered it,
and I found how to solve it for me. And yes, it is a CUPS problem. Or an
interaction between LO and CUPS.

I can only say I get my envelopes done as I want them. I have an HP
laser printer. However, as they are more wear for my printer, I prefer
to use windowed envelopes and print the address in the first page of the
letter, which you see through the transparent window of the envelope.

For the the from address I use sticky labels, maybe I print on the
envelope. If I had to send a significant number, I would use preprinted
envelopes.

>
>>
>> I heard of people having problems.
>>
>> Tables? Like excel? Or in Write? I use them.
>
> Tables in writer:
>
> Deleting columns in a table can delete several columns if any cells in
> that column are merged with other cells
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46733#c10

I don't remember if I tried to do this in Writer. Complex tables I
create in Calc, then use one of the insert or copy variants.

>
>
>>
>> What are "division tabs"?
>
> Tabbed UI (Writer): Division/section-per-tab (similar to Lotus WordPro)
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33173#c45
>

Ok, I see.

> check the attachments for screen shots.  Also note
> the date I posted it

Yeah, but they have no obligation to implement it if they don't like it,
no mater how much you want it.

Me, never having used them, I don't miss them.

(note that if I have to write a book, I use LyX; I would even consider
to learn Latex. I would not ever use LO, WP, or MO).

(Note 2: There are powerful latex implementations in Windows, I have
seen them in use, and they are really good and interesting)

>
>
> LO:
>
> WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T
> FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T
> FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T
> FIX.  Put us on your payroll!

You need to learn the bugzilla skillset. :-p

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 9/21/21 6:21 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> But you can not tell them that. The bug is reported for platform
> "Linux", you can not mention "word pro" to them. If you had initially
> created a bugzilla with "platform=windows", then you could mention "word
> pro".

Uuuhhhhh ... Wine is Linux. I am running Word Pro on Wine.

On 9/21/21 6:21 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> You need to learn the bugzilla skillset.:-P

After post around a 1000 of them over 26 years of
doing this, I have the hang of it

One of the things you have to learn is who is
responsive and who is not. Fedora is EXTREMELY
responsive. Wine, Libre Office, Xfce are not.

On 9/21/2021 7:50 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 9/21/2021 4:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 22/09/2021 00.24, T wrote:
>>> On 9/21/21 3:06 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>> On 21/09/2021 23.50, T wrote:
>>>>> On 9/21/21 12:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>> Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office, and
>>>>>> its being free is a big advantage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Ken,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have yet to get a single customer to adopt Libre Office
>>>>> (LO). They try for several weeks, then call me almost
>>>>> in tears and buy M$O from me.  At least they don't
>>>>> argue with me over the price!  SO the is a silver lining in
>>>>> it for me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Part of the issue it that it is not 100% identical to M$O
>>>>> keystroke wise.  But mostly it is the endless, stupid
>>>>> bugs LO won't fix as you can't afford to put them on your payroll.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as the keystroke issue, Free Office (FO), is
>>>>> far better and a ton less buggy.  And they are
>>>>> responsive to fixing bugs, unlike LO.
>>>>>
>>>>> I personally use LO and FO  I could jump thorough
>>>>> flaming hoops with Wine and get M$O install on
>>>>> Linux, but I am not willing to pay the monopoly
>>>>> price for M$O.
>>>>
>>>> I can only say that I have been using solely LO for 20 years, and it
>>>> works for me. I'm certainly not going to pay MO, but I know people
>>>> will.
>>>> I know people that are thrown back by trivial difficulties like
>>>> different menus or options, and want MO because that is what others
>>>> use.
>>>>
>>>> I know also people that are unable to copy a file using the file
>>>> explorer if an icon or menu is on a different corner of the screen...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You must not use tables a lot or print envelopes
>>> or need division tabs.
>>
>> Who prints envelopes today? :-D :-P
>
>
> I don't. It's been many years since I printed one. I almost never send
> anything by mail, and when I do, I hand-write the envelope.
>
>
People who send Christmas cards.

On 22/09/2021 03.53, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 6:21 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> You need to learn the bugzilla skillset.:-P
>
> After post around a 1000 of them over 26 years of
> doing this, I have the hang of it

But your language antagonizes them.

> One of the things you have to learn is who is
> responsive and who is not.  Fedora is EXTREMELY
> responsive.  Wine, Libre Office, Xfce are not.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 22/09/2021 03.50, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 6:21 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> But you can not tell them that. The bug is reported for platform
>> "Linux", you can not mention "word pro" to them. If you had initially
>> created a bugzilla with "platform=windows", then you could mention "word
>> pro".
>
> Uuuhhhhh  ...  Wine is Linux.  I am running Word Pro on Wine.

Barely admissible :-P

It is a completely different tooling, they can not compare why something
works here and not there.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 22/09/2021 04.05, knuttle wrote:
> On 9/21/2021 7:50 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 9/21/2021 4:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 22/09/2021 00.24, T wrote:
>>>> On 9/21/21 3:06 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>> On 21/09/2021 23.50, T wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/21/21 12:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>>> Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> its being free is a big advantage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Ken,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have yet to get a single customer to adopt Libre Office
>>>>>> (LO). They try for several weeks, then call me almost
>>>>>> in tears and buy M$O from me.  At least they don't
>>>>>> argue with me over the price!  SO the is a silver lining in
>>>>>> it for me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Part of the issue it that it is not 100% identical to M$O
>>>>>> keystroke wise.  But mostly it is the endless, stupid
>>>>>> bugs LO won't fix as you can't afford to put them on your payroll.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as the keystroke issue, Free Office (FO), is
>>>>>> far better and a ton less buggy.  And they are
>>>>>> responsive to fixing bugs, unlike LO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I personally use LO and FO  I could jump thorough
>>>>>> flaming hoops with Wine and get M$O install on
>>>>>> Linux, but I am not willing to pay the monopoly
>>>>>> price for M$O.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can only say that I have been using solely LO for 20 years, and it
>>>>> works for me. I'm certainly not going to pay MO, but I know people
>>>>> will.
>>>>> I know people that are thrown back by trivial difficulties like
>>>>> different menus or options, and want MO because that is what others
>>>>> use.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know also people that are unable to copy a file using the file
>>>>> explorer if an icon or menu is on a different corner of the screen...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You must not use tables a lot or print envelopes
>>>> or need division tabs.
>>>
>>> Who prints envelopes today? :-D :-P
>>
>>
>> I don't. It's been many years since I printed one. I almost never send
>> anything by mail, and when I do, I hand-write the envelope.
>>
>>
> People who send Christmas cards.

Gosh, those have to be hand written!

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Carlos E. R. wrote:

> Who prints envelopes today? :-D :-P

I generally print letters to align with window envelopes, or print address
labels to stick on plain envelopes.

On 22/09/2021 11.29, Andy Burns wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>> Who prints envelopes today? :-D :-P
>
> I generally print letters to align with window envelopes, or print
> address labels to stick on plain envelopes.

Me too - but even then, it is maybe once a year.

There are parcels, though - impossible to print them, has to be a label.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 9/21/21 11:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> But your language antagonizes them.

Only sometimes.

On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 18:50:44 -0700, T wrote:

> On 9/21/21 6:21 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> But you can not tell them that. The bug is reported for platform
>> "Linux", you can not mention "word pro" to them. If you had initially
>> created a bugzilla with "platform=windows", then you could mention "word
>> pro".
>
> Uuuhhhhh ... Wine is Linux. I am running Word Pro on Wine.

That's the second time you've mentioned a Lotus SmartSuite program!
They are much missed, but it's possible to install the suite on
Windows, just not so obvious how to get the helpfile to display (v
useful once you get it running). The 123 spreadsheet though feels a
little old fashioned after MSFT Excel.

On 22/09/2021 13.22, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 11:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> But your language antagonizes them.
>
> Only sometimes.

But they file you as nuisance, and then ignore you largely. It can happen.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 9/22/21 9:36 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 22/09/2021 13.22, T wrote:
>> On 9/21/21 11:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> But your language antagonizes them.
>>
>> Only sometimes.
>
> But they file you as nuisance, and then ignore you largely. It can happen.
>

Not so far. If you read some of those reports
I posted, I am mild in my mannerism as opposed
to others.

Did you catch the professional writer that let loose
on the division tabs who told them they had only
managed to match Word Perfect for DOS. He
ripped them but good.

You will also notice when I write on bug reports,
I hold back on my criticism. I am typically very
polite.

Maybe you are comparing my writing on this group?
I can let fly and often do. That is one of the
benefits of this group: you can talk freely and
openly.

On 9/22/21 8:53 AM, mechanic wrote:
> not so obvious how to get the helpfile to display

There are a bunch of help files on the ISO
in the Extra's directory

/SmartSuite-N99.8.0208.0800.iso/ISO9660/EXTRA/

Never found them very useful. DuckDuckGo works better

On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:32:08 -0700, T wrote:

> On 9/22/21 8:53 AM, mechanic wrote:
>> not so obvious how to get the helpfile to display
>
> There are a bunch of help files on the ISO
> in the Extra's directory
>
> /SmartSuite-N99.8.0208.0800.iso/ISO9660/EXTRA/
>
> Never found them very useful. DuckDuckGo works better

Yes, but they won't display on modern windows - you need
the XP winhlp32.exe file.

On 9/23/21 6:17 AM, mechanic wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:32:08 -0700, T wrote:
>
>> On 9/22/21 8:53 AM, mechanic wrote:
>>> not so obvious how to get the helpfile to display
>>
>> There are a bunch of help files on the ISO
>> in the Extra's directory
>>
>> /SmartSuite-N99.8.0208.0800.iso/ISO9660/EXTRA/
>>
>> Never found them very useful. DuckDuckGo works better
>
> Yes, but they won't display on modern windows - you need
> the XP winhlp32.exe file.
>

Since am using Wine, all that stuff just works,
which is unusual. Mostly Wine has a lot of issues