On 2023-05-05, Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:
> Probably scores of other things are also used in our daily lives where
> it's just a case of "this is what it is", but IN GENERAL the populace
> doesn't know (or necessarily care) why.

This is for certain. I believe that if intelligent life from elsewhere
in the cosmos were to observe human affairs on Earth, they'd quickly
determine that we are largely a nonsensical aberration of a life form.

We allow silly traditions, customs, feelings and beliefs to form our
collective destiny, while a protozoan conducts itself with a more clear
and intelligible purpose than we do.

In article <save-20230505121101@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>,
Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> writes:
>>Granted, after working in IT for the last 15 years ... I'm pretty sure
>>"people don't know where they saved their docs" isn't exactly news
>>either :)
>
> For Microsoft® Windows, there's a program called "Everything".
> One enters a part of a filename, and it shows all matching
> files in a few seconds (usually less than 10 seconds). People
> don't have to know where they saved their files any longer.

This is not the solution, this is part of the problem.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:
> On the other hand, how many of us know where the descriptors "Upper
> Case" and "Lower Case" come from? Or (for potentially the slightly
> younger crowd -- genX / Millennial) why Windows' "File Folders" are
> known as "Directories" in *nix, or why we have "Carriage Return" at the
> end of a line in a text file (or, if you're in Windows, a "Line Feed" as
> well).
>
> Probably scores of other things are also used in our daily lives where
> it's just a case of "this is what it is", but IN GENERAL the populace
> doesn't know (or necessarily care) why.

Arguably there is nothing magical about the concept of a file. The concepts
under discussion are how to subdivide and structure information, and how to
manage its change.

A hierarchical 'filesystem' of 'files' is one, relatively simple, way to do
the first, and 'opening' and 'saving' are simple ways to do the second.

But it doesn't have to be that way. A database is another way
to subdivide and structure information, and change can be tracked using
diffs and deltas (as in a version control system).

For example, an email inbox contains a number of objects (emails), but they
are not managed as files - they are read, replied, moved, tagged, deleted...
They may exist as Unix files in the backend, or maybe entirely in some DB.
Actions that happen to them (moving to a different folder) may change their
DB metadata but not actually affect their filesystem location.

The file paradigm is very useful, but it's not the only one and, especially
where data is stored on a remote server where you never interact with the
filesystem, other abstractions may be equally good.

Theo

On Friday, 5 May 2023 at 22:24:15 UTC+2, Theo wrote:

> But it doesn't have to be that way. A database is another way
> to subdivide and structure information, and change can be tracked using
> diffs and deltas (as in a version control system).

And that's simpler that files and folders?? How fucking idiotic
are you and the whole spamming gang here?!

Meanwhile we have veered off the original topic, which was
how you, ChatGTP, and your entire nazi-retarded incivilization
is the end of any decency, not just of all life and intelligence.

And then even mock the new generations, and you pieces
of vile retarded shit deserve to be shot into outer space....

Julio

On 2023-05-05, Rich wrote:
> Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:
>> On 2023-05-05, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>> Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> writes:
>>>>Granted, after working in IT for the last 15 years ... I'm pretty sure
>>>>"people don't know where they saved their docs" isn't exactly news
>>>>either :)
>>>
>>> For Microsoft® Windows, there's a program called "Everything".
>>> One enters a part of a filename, and it shows all matching
>>> files in a few seconds (usually less than 10 seconds). People
>>> don't have to know where they saved their files any longer.
>>
>> Sure, but the original post here (and continued discussion) has focused
>> on "kids" not knowing where something was saved / not understanding
>> filesystem layouts. I'm just making the counterpoint that it's not
>> exactly "new" :)
>
> If you go take a look at the original post, it was actually that "kids"
> had no actual conceptiual understanding that there were these things
> called "files", nor any understanding of what a "filesystem" was. Not
> just that they didn't know "where" -- they simply did not understand
> "what" in the first place. And without an understanding of "what",
> asking "where" was pointless.
>
> The subsequent discussion was what diverged into losing track of
> "where" one had saved one's files.

Oh, indeed I did lose that bit of the context ... oops :(

--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

On 2023-05-05, Theo wrote:
> Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:
>> On the other hand, how many of us know where the descriptors "Upper
>> Case" and "Lower Case" come from? Or (for potentially the slightly
>> younger crowd -- genX / Millennial) why Windows' "File Folders" are
>> known as "Directories" in *nix, or why we have "Carriage Return" at the
>> end of a line in a text file (or, if you're in Windows, a "Line Feed" as
>> well).
>>
>> Probably scores of other things are also used in our daily lives where
>> it's just a case of "this is what it is", but IN GENERAL the populace
>> doesn't know (or necessarily care) why.
>
> Arguably there is nothing magical about the concept of a file. The concepts
> under discussion are how to subdivide and structure information, and how to
> manage its change.

Agreed, but I also lost the plot somewhere between reading the initial
posting on the subject, and where I jumped in. I ended up replying to
the simplified shift, rather than the original point.

> [...]
> For example, an email inbox contains a number of objects (emails), but they
> are not managed as files - they are read, replied, moved, tagged, deleted...
> They may exist as Unix files in the backend, or maybe entirely in some DB.
> Actions that happen to them (moving to a different folder) may change their
> DB metadata but not actually affect their filesystem location.

Yep, it's just a mess of headers and bodies. Same as my local cache of
Usenet posts :D

--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> wrote:
> On Friday, 5 May 2023 at 22:24:15 UTC+2, Theo wrote:
> And then even mock the new generations, and you pieces
> of vile retarded shit deserve to be shot into outer space....
>
> Julio

PLONK