VanguardLH graced us with on 1/10/2024 12:22 AM:

<snip off-topic discussion that faux-gatekeeper started>

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

VanguardLH graced us with on 1/9/2024 11:56 PM:
> Sailfish <NIXCAPSsailfish@NIXCAPSunforgettable.com> wrote:
>
>> As far as Bugzilla, I've written my share of bug report using that
>> facility over the years most having to do with XUL as it related to
>> complete themes.
>
> Well, since you have an account there, might want to submit an change
> request, but likely you'll need to have come up with your suggestion to
> propose how to change.

nah, I find this newsgroup a more fertile medium for spreading the
warning. At this rate, I may even be able to surpass the top vs bottom
posting threads!

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

Sailfish <NIXCAPSsailfish@NIXCAPSunforgettable.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH graced us with on 1/10/2024 12:22 AM:
>
> <snip off-topic discussion that faux-gatekeeper started>

Ah, deliberately working yourself closer to a troll filter with your
egregious name calling.

Newsgroups were added to Microsoft's Exchange server c.1997.

https://www.itprotoday.com/email-and-calendaring/using-microsofts-internet-news-server

Not sure when NNTP was moved to IIS. When Microsoft removed NNTP from
Windows Server 2008, they also used it as an excuse to drop their NNTP
servers and pull their newsgroups. Microsoft dropped newsgroups in 2010
citing discontinued mainstream support for Windows Server 2003 which was
last to have NNTP. In Windows Server 2008, NNTP was no longer part of
IIS (Internet Information Services).

Before then I used the Microsoft NNTP servers to access those
newsgroups. There were microsoft.public.* that did not require a login,
and microsoft.private.* that did require a login. I was using NNTP to
connect, not some connector, mail-to-news gateway, or other non-NNTP
access method. Microsoft had a web page telling you how to connect to
their Answers web-based forums, some social connector you added as an
extension to Outlook (which was very unreliable), and how to connect to
their NNTP servers for newsgroups. Since that was more than 13 years
ago, I don't remember nor kept a URL to that web page to look it up at
web.archive.org.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010219104644/http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2001/feb/feb16c_01.html

The NY DA won a case against an ISP regarding kiddie porn in Usenet in
2001. Then the DA later sent letters of intent to threaten other ISPs
to remove kiddie porn. Many ISPs used the threat as an excuse to drop
newsgroups which were not a revenue-generating service. My ISP,
Comcast, who contracted with Giganews for newsgroups service, dropped
newsgroups in 2008 followed by Time Warner, AT&T, Verizon, and Sprint.
The ISPs didn't operate their own Usenet servers. They contracted out
that service, so it was a no-brainer to discontinue those contracts to
cease Usenet operations to eliminate a service previously bundled with
cable Internet access. Newsgroups didn't make them any revenue. My
first ISP (don't recall their name) had newsgroups. They got acquired
by another local cable provider (don't remember them, either) who
continued newsgroups. They got gobbled up by Comcast who continued
newsgroups until 2010.

With my ISPs, I had newsgroups from 1992 when I started participating to
2008 when my ISP dropped newsgroups. So, I had to move to a different
Usenet provider. Best I can recall, it was Albasani which was free
which started in 2005. Giganews cost money. Albasani's Bartolich died
in 2013 of a heart attack. I forget who tried to keep his Albasani
server up for several years, but I switched to Motzarella.org (now owned
by a cybersquatter) which eventually became Eternal-September.

When I discovered Microsoft had their newsgroups, I started using NNTP
to access them in addition to whomever I was using as my Usenet
provider(s). I found not much of interest me with microsoft.private.*
for which I had a login, and mostly visited the microsoft.public.*
newsgroups. I think the first microsoft.public newsgroup to which I
posted was the Internet Explorer 4 newsgroup back in 1997. Alas, Google
has destroyed the Deja News archive by removing access to the headers of
posts, so no way to look at the PATH header to see where was the
injection node, or get the MID header to try looking up at Howard Knight
(although HK may not be that old for its Usenet archive). I remember
using Outlook Express (aka Internet Mail and News) when it got bundled
with IE3 back in 1996 under Windows 95, but I'm not sure what I used
before then. Possibly AOL's Usenet gateway service c.1994, but those
engrams have long since been repurposed for newer memories. When
Microsoft dropped newsgroups, I found the same microsoft.public.*
newsgroups with my Usenet providers.

Well, just how did all those microsoft.public.* newsgroups show up in
Usenet if not peered? From what I can determine through non-exhaustive
online searching, Microsoft started their microsoft.* newsgroups around
1997, and dropped them in 2010. Regardless of the mechanism for
peering, I first accessed the microsoft.public.* newsgroups using
Microsoft's NNTP server, and later got forced to access them in Usenet
when Microsoft dropped newsgroups. Those newsgroups were there, and
they were here. How'd that happen?

Sailfish <NIXCAPSsailfish@NIXCAPSunforgettable.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH graced us with on 1/10/2024 12:26 AM:
>> Sailfish <NIXCAPSsailfish@NIXCAPSunforgettable.com> wrote:
>>
>>> VanguardLH graced us with on 1/9/2024 2:24 AM:
>
>>> Enabling primary password does NOT disable auto-fill, it simply defers
>>> it until the primary password is provided.
>>>
> <snip whitespace-wasting response />

Nothing quoted from VanguardLH. Sailfish snips everything in his empty
reply except his own content. Effectively an empty-body post.

VanguardLH graced us with on 1/10/2024 11:34 AM:
> Sailfish <NIXCAPSsailfish@NIXCAPSunforgettable.com> wrote:
>
>> VanguardLH graced us with on 1/10/2024 12:22 AM:
>>
>> <snip off-topic discussion that faux-gatekeeper started>
>
> Ah, deliberately working yourself closer to a troll filter with your
> egregious name calling.

The person who deliberately posted off-topic comments and continues to
do so, seemingly, unaware of the irony. Anyway, add me to your troll
filter, it will raise the bar on worthy dialog with my posts.

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

>. . .

>http://web.archive.org/web/20010219104644/http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2001/feb/feb16c_01.html

>The NY DA won a case against an ISP regarding kiddie porn in Usenet in
>2001.

Not the D.A. The Attorney General. Later, when Andrew Cuomo was A.G. he
did even more grandstanding on the "issue".

>I forget who tried to keep his Albasani server up for several years,

Roman Racine

>. . .

>Well, just how did all those microsoft.public.* newsgroups show up in
>Usenet if not peered?

I told you: Suck feed

There was no peering.

The articles were injected from the rest of Usenet into their servers by
someone with an account.

>From what I can determine through non-exhaustive
>online searching, Microsoft started their microsoft.* newsgroups around
>1997, and dropped them in 2010. Regardless of the mechanism for
>peering, I first accessed the microsoft.public.* newsgroups using
>Microsoft's NNTP server, and later got forced to access them in Usenet
>when Microsoft dropped newsgroups. Those newsgroups were there, and
>they were here. How'd that happen?

Julien's newgroup messages

How many more times do you need me to repeat the story?

"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>
>>. . .
>
>>http://web.archive.org/web/20010219104644/http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2001/feb/feb16c_01.html
>
>>The NY DA won a case against an ISP regarding kiddie porn in Usenet in
>>2001.
>
> Not the D.A. The Attorney General. Later, when Andrew Cuomo was A.G. he
> did even more grandstanding on the "issue".

I guess to nitpick further, it was the New York Attorney General, not
the U.S. Attorney General. Thanks for the info on Cuomo as I couldn't
remember his name. That let me find:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Cuomo#Usenet,_2008

>>Well, just how did all those microsoft.public.* newsgroups show up in
>>Usenet if not peered?
>
> I told you: Suck feed
>
> There was no peering.
>
> The articles were injected from the rest of Usenet into their servers by
> someone with an account.

Doesn't really descibe the setup. I thought suck feeds were 1-way, like
someone operating a Hamster server on their computer to suck (leech)
articles from an NNTP server.

So, what do you consider not Usenet peering? While I don't care for
those with the setup, there are mail-to-news gateways that leech Usenet
into web-based forums. Article in Usenet are gatewayed into the web
forums, and articles in the web forums are gatewayed back to Usenet.
The gateway is a form of peering. Mixmin has their e-mail gateway to
Usenet. Even some of the web forums (discussion groups) at Google
Groups (that were absorbed from Deja News) are considered part of Usenet
where its users can use either their web client or e-mail. GG acts as a
gateway from Usenet to their discussion groups, and a Usenet archive.
Look at all those Google Groupers here (that I filter out) who also see
all our posts here. Google's announcement of withdrawing from Usenet
(their gateway disappears) is good news, but they were here.

When I connected to Microsoft's NNTP servers, I'd see posts from Usenet
users (non-Microsoft injection nodes). When I connected to Albasani,
Motzarella, and ES, I saw articles that were submitted to the Microsoft
NNTP servers. The articles were at both the Microsoft and non-Microsoft
servers. Well, that's peering. Maybe you think peering only applies as
a term when it is NNTP-to-NNTP article transfers which evolved from
UUCP; that is, the worldwide mesh network of NNTP servers. Well, there
is how it started, and what it is today.

>>From what I can determine through non-exhaustive
>>online searching, Microsoft started their microsoft.* newsgroups around
>>1997, and dropped them in 2010. Regardless of the mechanism for
>>peering, I first accessed the microsoft.public.* newsgroups using
>>Microsoft's NNTP server, and later got forced to access them in Usenet
>>when Microsoft dropped newsgroups. Those newsgroups were there, and
>>they were here. How'd that happen?
>
> Julien's newgroup messages

In which newsgroup(s)? I'm compiling a history based on my experience,
not researching a thesis. Yes, you have mentioned *some* of the setup,
but leave out a huge number of details along with dates. You don't
provide a schedule of events showing the progression of the evolving
newsgroups service by Microsoft. Know of any such detailed histories
you can cite? I would be interested. So far, all I really have is just
your word, and I don't know you personally.

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

>>>. . .

>>>http://web.archive.org/web/20010219104644/http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2001/feb/feb16c_01.html

>>>The NY DA won a case against an ISP regarding kiddie porn in Usenet in
>>>2001.

>>Not the D.A. The Attorney General. Later, when Andrew Cuomo was A.G. he
>>did even more grandstanding on the "issue".

>I guess to nitpick further, it was the New York Attorney General, not
>the U.S. Attorney General.

The U.S. Attorney General doesn't typically file lawsuits, most of
which are filed by US attorneys or special prosecutors. I don't know
what lawsuits are filed by main Justice. We were talking about New York,
so New York state was implied.

>>>Well, just how did all those microsoft.public.* newsgroups show up in
>>>Usenet if not peered?

>>I told you: Suck feed

>>There was no peering.

>>The articles were injected from the rest of Usenet into their servers by
>>someone with an account.

>Doesn't really descibe the setup. I thought suck feeds were 1-way, like
>someone operating a Hamster server on their computer to suck (leech)
>articles from an NNTP server.

A suck feed is one way, yes. The problem of getting articles posted
from foreign News sites into the Microsoft News server was handled by
someone with a posting account.

>. . .

>>>From what I can determine through non-exhaustive
>>>online searching, Microsoft started their microsoft.* newsgroups around
>>>1997, and dropped them in 2010. Regardless of the mechanism for
>>>peering, I first accessed the microsoft.public.* newsgroups using
>>>Microsoft's NNTP server, and later got forced to access them in Usenet
>>>when Microsoft dropped newsgroups. Those newsgroups were there, and
>>>they were here. How'd that happen?

>>Julien's newgroup messages

>In which newsgroup(s)?

All of them. If Julien observed a changed in the groups on the Microsoft
server, he'd issue a control message. If Microsoft added a group, he'd
issue a newgroup message. If Microsoft removed a group, he'd issue a
rmgroup message. When the server was taken off line, Julien issued
rmgroups for all groups that existed till the end.

>I'm compiling a history based on my experience,
>not researching a thesis. Yes, you have mentioned *some* of the setup,
>but leave out a huge number of details along with dates. You don't
>provide a schedule of events showing the progression of the evolving
>newsgroups service by Microsoft. Know of any such detailed histories
>you can cite? I would be interested. So far, all I really have is just
>your word, and I don't know you personally.

I'm not stopping you from communicating directly with Julien. The
control messages are all archived in the usual place if you want dates.

He's a very nice man. Without him and Russ, INN would no longer be
maintained. You'll have to stop calling him an asshole.

"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>>"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>
>>>>. . .
>
>>>>http://web.archive.org/web/20010219104644/http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2001/feb/feb16c_01.html
>
>>>>The NY DA won a case against an ISP regarding kiddie porn in Usenet in
>>>>2001.
>
>>>Not the D.A. The Attorney General. Later, when Andrew Cuomo was A.G. he
>>>did even more grandstanding on the "issue".
>
>>I guess to nitpick further, it was the New York Attorney General, not
>>the U.S. Attorney General.
>
> The U.S. Attorney General doesn't typically file lawsuits, most of
> which are filed by US attorneys or special prosecutors. I don't know
> what lawsuits are filed by main Justice. We were talking about New York,
> so New York state was implied.
>
>>>>Well, just how did all those microsoft.public.* newsgroups show up in
>>>>Usenet if not peered?
>
>>>I told you: Suck feed
>
>>>There was no peering.
>
>>>The articles were injected from the rest of Usenet into their servers by
>>>someone with an account.
>
>>Doesn't really descibe the setup. I thought suck feeds were 1-way, like
>>someone operating a Hamster server on their computer to suck (leech)
>>articles from an NNTP server.
>
> A suck feed is one way, yes. The problem of getting articles posted
> from foreign News sites into the Microsoft News server was handled by
> someone with a posting account.
>
>>. . .
>
>>>>From what I can determine through non-exhaustive
>>>>online searching, Microsoft started their microsoft.* newsgroups around
>>>>1997, and dropped them in 2010. Regardless of the mechanism for
>>>>peering, I first accessed the microsoft.public.* newsgroups using
>>>>Microsoft's NNTP server, and later got forced to access them in Usenet
>>>>when Microsoft dropped newsgroups. Those newsgroups were there, and
>>>>they were here. How'd that happen?
>
>>>Julien's newgroup messages
>
>>In which newsgroup(s)?
>
> All of them. If Julien observed a changed in the groups on the Microsoft
> server, he'd issue a control message. If Microsoft added a group, he'd
> issue a newgroup message. If Microsoft removed a group, he'd issue a
> rmgroup message. When the server was taken off line, Julien issued
> rmgroups for all groups that existed till the end.
>
>>I'm compiling a history based on my experience,
>>not researching a thesis. Yes, you have mentioned *some* of the setup,
>>but leave out a huge number of details along with dates. You don't
>>provide a schedule of events showing the progression of the evolving
>>newsgroups service by Microsoft. Know of any such detailed histories
>>you can cite? I would be interested. So far, all I really have is just
>>your word, and I don't know you personally.
>
> I'm not stopping you from communicating directly with Julien. The
> control messages are all archived in the usual place if you want dates.
>
> He's a very nice man. Without him and Russ, INN would no longer be
> maintained. You'll have to stop calling him an asshole.

Luckily all the Usenet providers (not Microsoft) ignored his rmgroup
requests. That is, Usenet did not consent to Julien's attempt to
delete. Just because Microsoft dumped their NNTP server was no excuse
to eradicate the microsoft.public.* newsgroups elsewhere. Those
newsgroups grew a life outside of Microsoft. Maybe Julien is your
friend, or you think him friendly, but the /users/ that lost the
microsoft.public.* saw it as an asshole move. They didn't give a gnat's
fart about Microsoft shutting down. The newsgroups were alive outside
of Microsoft, and they provide much needed assistance on a variety of
topics. Microsoft's web-based Answers forums are full of boobs with
MVPs trying assist (who scattered away from newsgroups to move to
Answers forums).

Who owns a newsgroup that is distributed, peered, or whatever term you
want to use that is distributed to Usenet? A private NNTP server that
isn't peered anyway is under control of whomever owns or manages their
private NNTP server. GRC could suddenly dump their NNTP access. They
didn't peer anywhere. They kept it private. But once peered, does the
originator of a newsgroup have the right to yank it away from Usenet?
Luckily newsgroup removal is a request procedure, not a mandate. Usenet
decides what to drop. There have been attacks, to be sure, that
utilized the trust model.

Mozilla dropped their NNTP servers. Newsgroups by them disappeared.
Users decided to keep the mozilla newsgroups by creating new ones under
the alt.comp.software hierarchy. Well, who owns those alt newsgroups
for Mozilla products?

Oh, by the way, if you visit the ES support newsgroups, you'll see I and
others complained of Ray removing the microsoft.* newsgroups from his
server. Just because it can be done doesn't mandate it is right. We
have enough trouble trying to keep Usenet alive due to attrition of
users without the admins helping to kill it. Ray has spent considerable
effort defining and tweaking his GG spam filters that he could've
applied to the spam influx into the microsoft.* newsgroups. And now GG
won't be a problem in about a month. So, ES users lose microsoft.*
newsgroups for no good cause.

If you use, and may even rely, on a shovel to do your gardening work,
but some joker walks up to take away your shovel, yes, he's an asshole.
It was your shovel. That his plant makes the shovel doesn't give him
right to steal it away. One of the reasons Microsoft left Usenet was
because they didn't have control of Usenet. They do have control over
their Answers forums. It's their resource, their management, their
control to change or influence however they want. It's their property.
Usenet was never their property.

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>>>. . .

>>I'm not stopping you from communicating directly with Julien. The
>>control messages are all archived in the usual place if you want dates.

>>He's a very nice man. Without him and Russ, INN would no longer be
>>maintained. You'll have to stop calling him an asshole.

>Luckily all the Usenet providers (not Microsoft) ignored his rmgroup
>requests. That is, Usenet did not consent to Julien's attempt to
>delete. Just because Microsoft dumped their NNTP server was no excuse
>to eradicate the microsoft.public.* newsgroups elsewhere. Those
>newsgroups grew a life outside of Microsoft. Maybe Julien is your
>friend, or you think him friendly, but the /users/ that lost the
>microsoft.public.* saw it as an asshole move.

Since you won't stop calling him an asshole, please don't contact him.
You just told us that all Usenet providers ignored his rmgroups, so I
don't see how any users lost newsgroups.

>. . .

>Who owns a newsgroup that is distributed, peered, or whatever term you
>want to use that is distributed to Usenet?

Articles are distributed. News servers are peered.

Fluffy owns Usenet.

>. . .