"The driver Mr. Zhan (who drives lorries for a living) said when he
was attempting to park his Tesla, the brake pedal went too hard to
push and pressing P mode also didn't help. The car kept accelerating
while Zhan desperately hitting the brakes but to no avail. CCTV
camera caught the brake light went on for a moment yet the car didn't
slow down. One of the front tires exploded after the car drove off
for 1.2 kilometers and it finally came to a stop after another 1.4
kilos, hitting multiple vehicles, killing 2 [people] and injuring 3
[others]. The driver suffered several broken ribs but has been in
stable condition. On the other hand, Tesla promptly claimed that the
driver never hit the brakes (as they always do after such incidents).
Police confirmed Mr. Zhan was not under the influence of alcohol or
drugs and are still investigating the case."

Video footage:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ThatsInsane/comments/ytvo2g/
tesla_lost_control_when_parking_and_took_off_to/

On 11/14/22 11:05 AM, Ben Collver wrote:
> "The driver Mr. Zhan (who drives lorries for a living) said when he
> was attempting to park his Tesla, the brake pedal went too hard to
> push and pressing P mode also didn't help. The car kept accelerating
> while Zhan desperately hitting the brakes but to no avail. CCTV
> camera caught the brake light went on for a moment yet the car didn't
> slow down. One of the front tires exploded after the car drove off
> for 1.2 kilometers and it finally came to a stop after another 1.4
> kilos, hitting multiple vehicles, killing 2 [people] and injuring 3
> [others]. The driver suffered several broken ribs but has been in
> stable condition. On the other hand, Tesla promptly claimed that the
> driver never hit the brakes (as they always do after such incidents).
> Police confirmed Mr. Zhan was not under the influence of alcohol or
> drugs and are still investigating the case."

88 Caddy did that for a while, first time was terrifying. No solution
to the problem, and I eventually junked the car. When it did it (not
very often) the only solution was to turn off the engine -- not always a
convenient solution, but essential. When it figured out it couldn't
kill me that way it changed its behavior in various ways. POS.
Replaced it with a Toyota.

--
Cheers, Bev
"Screw the end users. If they want good software,
let them write it themselves." -- Anon.

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> writes:

> On 11/14/22 11:05 AM, Ben Collver wrote:
>
>> "The driver Mr. Zhan (who drives lorries for a living) said when he
>> was attempting to park his Tesla, the brake pedal went too hard to
>> push and pressing P mode also didn't help. The car kept accelerating
>> while Zhan desperately hitting the brakes but to no avail. CCTV
>> camera caught the brake light went on for a moment yet the car didn't
>> slow down. One of the front tires exploded after the car drove off
>> for 1.2 kilometers and it finally came to a stop after another 1.4
>> kilos, hitting multiple vehicles, killing 2 [people] and injuring 3
>> [others]. The driver suffered several broken ribs but has been in
>> stable condition. On the other hand, Tesla promptly claimed that the
>> driver never hit the brakes (as they always do after such incidents).
>> Police confirmed Mr. Zhan was not under the influence of alcohol or
>> drugs and are still investigating the case."
>
> 88 Caddy did that for a while, first time was terrifying. No solution
> to the problem, and I eventually junked the car. When it did it (not
> very often) the only solution was to turn off the engine -- not always a
> convenient solution, but essential. When it figured out it couldn't
> kill me that way it changed its behavior in various ways. POS.
> Replaced it with a Toyota.

Doesn't even need a computer. The updraught carb on an International
Harvester Silver Diamond (circa 1950) engine was spring-loaded
full-open by a spring internal to the carb. Then the external
throttle spring held it closed. Depressing the throttle pedal allowed
the internal spring to open the throttle plate.

But when such an engine was 25 or 30 years old, wear on the linkage
*internal* to the carb allowed the throttle plate & internal spring to
become uncoupled from the external throttle linkage, pushing the
throttle plate abruptly to maximum open.

What a brilliant design feature!

The fix (after the truck was brought somehow to a halt) was to remove
some small screws low down in the engine compartment, remove a small
cover plate, re-engage the internal linkage and reassemble, something
that I did in the dark a couple of times.

No interaction with the brakes, of course, but the SD engine was
pretty powerful for a little old pickup truck's brakes to fight so
power-down was the only workable tactic. A variant was to accelerate
to scary speed, depress clutch, shut off ignition and coast until
quite slow, then turn on ignition and bump-start by popping the
clutch. Did that once on a couple of miles of hilly, crooked gravel
road where roadside twiddling was particularly undesirable.

At least I could figure out and understand what was going on. I
assume a Tesla is a black box.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

On 11/14/22 2:24 PM, Mike Spencer wrote:
> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 11/14/22 11:05 AM, Ben Collver wrote:
>>
>>> "The driver Mr. Zhan (who drives lorries for a living) said when he
>>> was attempting to park his Tesla, the brake pedal went too hard to
>>> push and pressing P mode also didn't help. The car kept accelerating
>>> while Zhan desperately hitting the brakes but to no avail. CCTV
>>> camera caught the brake light went on for a moment yet the car didn't
>>> slow down. One of the front tires exploded after the car drove off
>>> for 1.2 kilometers and it finally came to a stop after another 1.4
>>> kilos, hitting multiple vehicles, killing 2 [people] and injuring 3
>>> [others]. The driver suffered several broken ribs but has been in
>>> stable condition. On the other hand, Tesla promptly claimed that the
>>> driver never hit the brakes (as they always do after such incidents).
>>> Police confirmed Mr. Zhan was not under the influence of alcohol or
>>> drugs and are still investigating the case."
>>
>> 88 Caddy did that for a while, first time was terrifying. No solution
>> to the problem, and I eventually junked the car. When it did it (not
>> very often) the only solution was to turn off the engine -- not always a
>> convenient solution, but essential. When it figured out it couldn't
>> kill me that way it changed its behavior in various ways. POS.
>> Replaced it with a Toyota.

It was the first one I looked at. At a DEALERSHIP, for chrissake. I
didn't even look under the hood, I asked for a white Corolla a few years
old. This one had only 16K miles and was immaculate. I couldn't think
of a reason NOT to buy it. 9 years old and there's only 35K on it. I'll
be buried in the damn thing.

> Doesn't even need a computer. The updraught carb on an International
> Harvester Silver Diamond (circa 1950) engine was spring-loaded
> full-open by a spring internal to the carb. Then the external
> throttle spring held it closed. Depressing the throttle pedal allowed
> the internal spring to open the throttle plate.
>
> But when such an engine was 25 or 30 years old, wear on the linkage
> *internal* to the carb allowed the throttle plate & internal spring to
> become uncoupled from the external throttle linkage, pushing the
> throttle plate abruptly to maximum open.
>
> What a brilliant design feature!
>
> The fix (after the truck was brought somehow to a halt) was to remove
> some small screws low down in the engine compartment, remove a small
> cover plate, re-engage the internal linkage and reassemble, something
> that I did in the dark a couple of times.

How wonderful it was when things had MECHANICAL problems and fixes. We
didn't appreciate it at the time. When the throttle return-spring on
my 1983 Suzuki gave up the ghost I replaced it with a pencil eraser.

> No interaction with the brakes, of course, but the SD engine was
> pretty powerful for a little old pickup truck's brakes to fight so
> power-down was the only workable tactic. A variant was to accelerate
> to scary speed, depress clutch, shut off ignition and coast until
> quite slow, then turn on ignition and bump-start by popping the
> clutch. Did that once on a couple of miles of hilly, crooked gravel
> road where roadside twiddling was particularly undesirable.
>
> At least I could figure out and understand what was going on. I
> assume a Tesla is a black box.

There's a possibility that this is a feature; doesn't everyone what to
floor it immediately just to experience that great acceleration? They
just want to make it easy! That's the only reason a REAL person would
want a Tesla.

The Caddy would behave itself upon restart. First time for about 15
minutes -- I figured if I killed it once I could do it again, and I was
right. Thereafter it happened every few weeks. Trusted GM mech
replaced whatever he could get, but there was some obscure carb/computer
part that was simply unavailable even through wrecking yards. Stupid
engine, brakes and trans were in perfect shape when I took it to the
wrecker. Kalifornia paid me $1K to kill it, and NO parts could be
re-sold. I hated that part, the POS had all new brakes and tires. I
hope the wrecker cheated.

--
Cheers, Bev
"If you like to stand on your head and spit pickles in the snow, on the
Internet there are at least three other people just like you."
- Langston James Goree VI

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> writes:

> How wonderful it was when things had MECHANICAL problems and fixes. We
> didn't appreciate it at the time.

Yes. I once worked -- late 60s when the very first cars with
computers were just appearing -- as a mechanic for a guy who said, "A
man made it; a man can fix it." So we took in all manner of weird
European cars and the occasional US antique. Our only failures were
ones needing essential but utterly unobtainable parts that we coudn't
fabricate.

Now, of course, cars are made by robots. Soon the cars and the robots
that make them will be designed by neural nets. Then there won't be a
single human anywhere that knows how they were made.

> When the throttle return-spring on my 1983 Suzuki gave up the ghost
> I replaced it with a pencil eraser.

Primo!

> "If you like to stand on your head and spit pickles in the snow, on the
> Internet there are at least three other people just like you."
> - Langston James Goree VI

Yeah. "What kind of goat?"

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

On 15/11/2022 6:05 am, Ben Collver wrote:
> On the other hand, Tesla promptly claimed that the
> driver never hit the brakes.

By which they mean, of course, that their breke pressure sensor never
detected anything, which might be the exact reason the brakes didn't work.

Mind you, the fact that the brake lights came on pretty much shows that
something was aware of the brake pedal being pushed.

The level of mechanical disconnect between the driver and the brakes and
steering is becoming alarming. It may be OK on fly-by-wire aircraft that
have triplicated sytems, and usually time to figure things out, but
it's time regulators put limits on motor vehicles.

Sometimes the electronic systems seem just silly. How can it be cheaper
to build an electronically operated hand brake (emergency brake for the
yanks) than the conventional lever and ratchet design.

I rejected the purchase of one vehicle pretty much solely because it had
an electronic handbrake. How do you do hill starts? I know the
manufacturers reckon that their automatic transmission vehicles never
roll back, but they clearly haven't driven them in real conditions.

Sylvia.

On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 14:24:05 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:

> Sometimes the electronic systems seem just silly. How can it be cheaper
> to build an electronically operated hand brake (emergency brake for the
> yanks) than the conventional lever and ratchet design.
>
> I rejected the purchase of one vehicle pretty much solely because it had
> an electronic handbrake. How do you do hill starts?

Mine does it for me. That's where the electronic version starts to win.

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

Sylvia Else wrote:

> The level of mechanical disconnect between the driver and the brakes and
> steering is becoming alarming. It may be OK on fly-by-wire aircraft that have
> triplicated sytems

Apparently telsas used to have duplicated components handling the steering,
until the chip-shortage, then they decided they could leave one of them out
anyway ...

CNBC link <https://cnb.cx/3Hz93BK>

Sylvia Else wrote:

> it had an electronic handbrake. How do you do hill starts? I know the
> manufacturers reckon that their automatic transmission vehicles never roll back,
> but they clearly haven't driven them in real conditions.

Press the accelerator, then it releases the brake when the robot clutch starts
to bite, works well.

On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 09:09:25 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

> Sylvia Else wrote:
>
>> it had an electronic handbrake. How do you do hill starts? I know the
>> manufacturers reckon that their automatic transmission vehicles never
>> roll back,
>> but they clearly haven't driven them in real conditions.
>
> Press the accelerator, then it releases the brake when the robot clutch
> starts to bite, works well.

It also works well on my manual car. When I release the clutch, it
releases the brake.

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
> On 15/11/2022 6:05 am, Ben Collver wrote:
>> On the other hand, Tesla promptly claimed that the
>> driver never hit the brakes.
>
> By which they mean, of course, that their breke pressure sensor never
> detected anything, which might be the exact reason the brakes didn't work.
>
> Mind you, the fact that the brake lights came on pretty much shows that
> something was aware of the brake pedal being pushed.

It is possible the brake lights were still activated by a mechanical
switch that detects movement of the pedal, no matter whether the
hydraulic system produces any pressure to actually apply the brakes.

> The level of mechanical disconnect between the driver and the brakes and
> steering is becoming alarming. It may be OK on fly-by-wire aircraft that
> have triplicated sytems, and usually time to figure things out, but
> it's time regulators put limits on motor vehicles.
>
> Sometimes the electronic systems seem just silly. How can it be cheaper
> to build an electronically operated hand brake (emergency brake for the
> yanks) than the conventional lever and ratchet design.

Probably some bean counter added up the costs of design and manufacture
of the various components for each, and likely the lower 'parts count'
for the electronic hand brake (no ratchet, no handle, just a push button [or
worse, a 'touch screen area'] for the user control) and deemed that the
BOM was lower.

> I rejected the purchase of one vehicle pretty much solely because it had
> an electronic handbrake. How do you do hill starts? I know the
> manufacturers reckon that their automatic transmission vehicles never
> roll back, but they clearly haven't driven them in real conditions.

Automatics don't roll backwards, provided the driver understands to
load the torque converter by increasing engine RPM's sufficient to
overcome gravity prior to releasing the foot brake. Of course doing so
requires the driver to not use the manual transmission method of "same
foot for accelerator and brake" control.

Sadly, few drivers even 'understand' how their car operates at a
superficial level. Expecting them to understand how to not roll
backwards on a hill start in an automatic transmission car is expecting
them to know way too much about how the mechanicals actually operate.

Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
> I rejected the purchase of one vehicle pretty much solely because it had
> an electronic handbrake. How do you do hill starts? I know the
> manufacturers reckon that their automatic transmission vehicles never
> roll back, but they clearly haven't driven them in real conditions.

That's why they have hill start assist, yet another of the many "assists"
that are available to deal with people who increasingly don't know how to
drive.

(First time I ran across that one was a bit disconcerting. I was moving a
friend's car into my garage, and expected that putting the transmission in
drive and letting off the brake would be enough to move it where it needed
to go. That's all any car with an automatic (even a CVT) needs, right? It
took careful application of the throttle to get the car into the garage
without smashing through the wall. One step forward, two steps back?)

--
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

On 15/11/2022 09:09, Andy Burns wrote:
> Sylvia Else wrote:
>
>> it had an electronic handbrake. How do you do hill starts? I know the
>> manufacturers reckon that their automatic transmission vehicles never
>> roll back, but they clearly haven't driven them in real conditions.
>
> Press the accelerator, then it releases the brake when the robot clutch
> starts to bite, works well.
>

Works well, *most times*.

I had a hire car with that feature but it became problematic trying to
exit an underground parking garage. The exit ramp was a 12% or so
incline, but you needed to stop on the ramp to trigger the automatic
roller door. Once it was open you needed to give the engine some beans
to cause the car to release the brake and move forward, but then you
needed to immediately stop so you didn't run over the pedestrians on the
pavement.

On any of my previous cars that had a manual handbrake this manoeuvre
would have been trivial. The automatic brake made it much more fraught
than it need be.

Slightly unusual circumstances perhaps, but not utterly unique.

--
Bruce Horrocks
Surrey, England

Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
> Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> Sometimes the electronic systems seem just silly. How can it be cheaper
>> to build an electronically operated hand brake (emergency brake for the
>> yanks) than the conventional lever and ratchet design.
>
> Probably some bean counter added up the costs of design and manufacture
> of the various components for each, and likely the lower 'parts count'
> for the electronic hand brake (no ratchet, no handle, just a push button [or
> worse, a 'touch screen area'] for the user control) and deemed that the
> BOM was lower.

Plus assembly of a handbrake system with a tensioned cable involved
might have been more difficult for robots than assembling the
electromechanical equivalent. This human certainly found one design
very tricky to re-assemble.

Electronic handbrake systems might go some way to solving my
eternal problem of forgetting to release it (if this hill start
thing that people are talking about works like I'm guessing it
does). So compared to other electronic equivalents to manual
linkages, this might actually be the only one with a real
advantage for me.

Yes cars always have a handbrake light on the dash, but you don't
take off while staring at the dashboard, do you? Some sort of
audible alarm linked to the speedo would be another workable
solution though.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#