On Thu, 08 Sep 2022 19:20:06 -0300, Meredith Montgomery
<mmontgomery@levado.to> wrote:

> Now I have full privileges and the user is a reader /union/ developer.

If you plan to ever use "unversioned files", the students and
you also need "y" permission.

> Finally, I give it a nice random project name as a warm welcome to the
> student.
>
> fossil sqlite -R $r \
> "replace into config (name, value, mtime) \
> values ('project-name', 'Nice Name', now());"

Great! Congratulations. You mastered fossil within a week more
than I did in over 3 months :D

> That's it. Should I close it now --- because I opened it? I'm not
> sure. I'm not quite sure what open or close really do.

"open' means the directory is considered a checkout of the
repository. "closed" means the relation between repository and
checkout is removed.

That relation is maintained in a database called ".fslckout" at
the root of the checkout directory tree. The repository itself
also contains pointers to associated checkouts.
Use "fossil all info" to verify.

If you plan to checkout the students work (new version) after it
arrives, you have to leave it open.
If you collect the students work with something like
"fossil cat ... -R path/to/repo -r VERSION", you can close it

Sudents obviously need a local clone of their personal
repository on their own machine, and they can only "fossil add"
new files and checkin with "fossil commit -m 'description' "
when the repository is opened in a checkout directory on their
machine. They will automatically have all permissions on their
local repo.

Note: fossil allows multiple ckeckout directories for the same
repository, each on its own branch or version.

I hope this answers your question.
--
regards,
Kees Nuyt

On Aug 31, 2022 at 9:07:17 PM EDT, "Meredith Montgomery"
<mmontgomery@levado.to> wrote:

> I'm thiking about creating UNIX accounts merely for students to upload
> their homework through scp. [snip]

Most every educational institution I am aware of uses GitHub Classroom tools
for this sort of thing.

Your question reminds me of the hand crafted systems schools used to build
back in the 90s and early 2000s. The world has moved on, for the most part.

What is the nature of your "teaching" where you don't have access to the
latest tools? Blackboard, Brightspace, GiitHub Classroom, Google Classroom,
etc

On Thu, 2022-09-01, Meredith Montgomery wrote:
> I'm thiking about creating UNIX accounts merely for students to upload
> their homework through scp. But I have not solved all what I want to
> solve. (Such students are expected to be technical enough to use scp.)
>
> I'm thinking of scp because it's solid enough. It's simple. It works.
> I end up having all of the work centralized in a UNIX system. I get
> dates et cetera.

I'd use Git (with ssh as the authentication and transport mechanism).
It's a system designed for sharing source code changes in a controlled
way, after all.

The workflow could be:

- You create a $course/$exercise repository with the exercise in it,
possibly some boiler-plate code or unit tests.
- The student clones it to a $course/$exercise/$student repository
and gives you access. Perhaps you'd need GitLab or a similar web frontend
for this part.
- You poll this repository and find an acceptable solution to $exercise.
You say so by adding an "ok" commit, or copying it to a repository of
accepted solutions, or something.

No doubt teachers have come up with working versions of this workflow
already.

Ssh is a good authentication and transport mechanism for Git.

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .

Kees Nuyt <k.nuyt@nospam.demon.nl> writes:

> On Thu, 08 Sep 2022 19:20:06 -0300, Meredith Montgomery
> <mmontgomery@levado.to> wrote:
>
>> Now I have full privileges and the user is a reader /union/ developer.
>
> If you plan to ever use "unversioned files", the students and
> you also need "y" permission.

I won't use unversioned files. (I won't have files changing very often,
for instance, if I understand what unversioned files are for.)

>> Finally, I give it a nice random project name as a warm welcome to the
>> student.
>>
>> fossil sqlite -R $r \
>> "replace into config (name, value, mtime) \
>> values ('project-name', 'Nice Name', now());"

By the way,

fossil init [...] --project-name "Nice Name" does the job.

> Great! Congratulations. You mastered fossil within a week more
> than I did in over 3 months :D

Lol. Thanks for the encouragement!

>> That's it. Should I close it now --- because I opened it? I'm not
>> sure. I'm not quite sure what open or close really do.
>
> "open' means the directory is considered a checkout of the
> repository. "closed" means the relation between repository and
> checkout is removed.

Thank you. This makes sense.

> That relation is maintained in a database called ".fslckout" at
> the root of the checkout directory tree.

On Win32, they call it _FOSSIL_.

> The repository itself also contains pointers to associated checkouts.
> Use "fossil all info" to verify.

Thank you. That's good info. I'm on Win32, so ``fossil all info''
seems to read %LOCALAPPDATA%'s file _fossil. I'd like to keep this file
in a certain specific place --- for portably carrying it over with me
wherever I go. I might need to understand some environment variables?

When I clone a repository, I see

config-db: C:/Users/x/AppData/Local/_fossil

when I ``fossil status''. I'd also like to keep this _fossil somewhere
specific so I can carry it with me wherever I go with my pendrive.

> If you plan to checkout the students work (new version) after it
> arrives, you have to leave it open.
> If you collect the students work with something like
> "fossil cat ... -R path/to/repo -r VERSION", you can close it

This is making sense. I'll keep them open.

> Sudents obviously need a local clone of their personal
> repository on their own machine, and they can only "fossil add"
> new files and checkin with "fossil commit -m 'description' "
> when the repository is opened in a checkout directory on their
> machine. They will automatically have all permissions on their
> local repo.

This makes sense. Let me ask --- what are the steps and knowledge
required on the student's part? I think they need to

clone
add
commit

and eventually

update.

They need to update to find out if changes were made to their repository
--- I'll tell their grades by making changes to their own files, which
will be good to allow us to give them a very precise feedback.

[...]

> I hope this answers your question.

It does. Thank you so much for your kind attention.

On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 00:10:10 -0300, Meredith Montgomery
<mmontgomery@levado.to> wrote:

> I won't use unversioned files. (I won't have files changing very often,
> for instance, if I understand what unversioned files are for.)

Ok.

> ... I'm on Win32, so ``fossil all info''
> seems to read %LOCALAPPDATA%'s file _fossil. I'd like to keep this file
> in a certain specific place --- for portably carrying it over with me
> wherever I go. I might need to understand some environment variables?
>
> When I clone a repository, I see
>
> config-db: C:/Users/x/AppData/Local/_fossil
>
> when I ``fossil status''. I'd also like to keep this _fossil somewhere
> specific so I can carry it with me wherever I go with my pendrive.
Yes, on Windows, fossil looks for "_fossil"
in these directories, in order:
FOSSIL_HOME
LOCALAPPDATA
APPDATA
USERPROFILE
HOMEDRIVE HOMEPATH
The first in this list that has a value decides.
So, set environment variable FOSSIL_HOME and you're done.
> ... Let me ask --- what are the steps and knowledge
> required on the student's part? I think they need to
>
> clone
> add
> commit
>
> and eventually
>
> update.
>
> They need to update to find out if changes were made to their repository
> --- I'll tell their grades by making changes to their own files, which
> will be good to allow us to give them a very precise feedback.

Nice.

Also useful :
changes
info
ls
extras
diff
timeline -v
sync (if autosync is off)
rm (delete)
mv (rename)

--
Regards,
Kees Nuyt

Kees Nuyt <k.nuyt@nospam.demon.nl> writes:

> On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 00:10:10 -0300, Meredith Montgomery
> <mmontgomery@levado.to> wrote:

[...]

>> ... I'm on Win32, so ``fossil all info''
>> seems to read %LOCALAPPDATA%'s file _fossil. I'd like to keep this file
>> in a certain specific place --- for portably carrying it over with me
>> wherever I go. I might need to understand some environment variables?
>>
>> When I clone a repository, I see
>>
>> config-db: C:/Users/x/AppData/Local/_fossil
>>
>> when I ``fossil status''. I'd also like to keep this _fossil somewhere
>> specific so I can carry it with me wherever I go with my pendrive.
>
> Yes, on Windows, fossil looks for "_fossil"
> in these directories, in order:
> FOSSIL_HOME
> LOCALAPPDATA
> APPDATA
> USERPROFILE
> HOMEDRIVE HOMEPATH
> The first in this list that has a value decides.
> So, set environment variable FOSSIL_HOME and you're done.

Perfect. Thank you!

>> ... Let me ask --- what are the steps and knowledge
>> required on the student's part? I think they need to
>>
>> clone
>> add
>> commit
>>
>> and eventually
>>
>> update.
>>
>> They need to update to find out if changes were made to their repository
>> --- I'll tell their grades by making changes to their own files, which
>> will be good to allow us to give them a very precise feedback.
>
> Nice.
>
> Also useful :
> changes
> info
> ls
> extras
> diff
> timeline -v
> sync (if autosync is off)
> rm (delete)
> mv (rename)

Thanks! Minus v in timeline is nice. I also figured out the basic
usage of diff, but I will need more time to even need more commands.
More questions soon! Thank you so much!

On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 16:48:38 -0300, Meredith Montgomery
<mmontgomery@levado.to> wrote:

> More questions soon!

No problem.

> Thank you so much!

My pleasure.
--
Kees Nuyt

On 04/09/2022 21:41, Meredith Montgomery wrote:
> Bruce Horrocks <07.013@scorecrow.com> writes:
>
>> On 01/09/2022 02:07, Meredith Montgomery wrote:
>>> I'm thiking about creating UNIX accounts merely for students to upload
>>> their homework through scp.
>
> [...]
>
>> The suggestions to have your own Unix server receive email are all
>> well and good but setting it up *and securing it* is a PITA.
>
> Good point.
>
>> An alternative is to use Amazon's SES (Simple Email Service)
>> <https://aws.amazon.com/ses/details/>
>>
>> Your volumes are probably low enough that the free tier will cover
>> everything, and it's easy to have a script run on receipt of an
>> email. Anti-virus scanning of the attachments is automatic.
>
> That's interesting. I watched a video in which they set up an S3 bucket
> and the mail is stored there. I guess I could then write a program to
> download all files and extract attachments. I'd have to learn to use
> the S3 API. This seems simple enough, elegant enough.

No need to learn the S3 API if you don't want to as an S3 bucket can be
mounted as a filesystem.

<https://cloud.netapp.com/blog/amazon-s3-as-a-file-system>

--
Bruce Horrocks
Surrey, England

Kees Nuyt <k.nuyt@nospam.demon.nl> writes:

> On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 16:48:38 -0300, Meredith Montgomery
> <mmontgomery@levado.to> wrote:
>
>> More questions soon!
>
> No problem.
>
>> Thank you so much!
>
> My pleasure.

Next question. It seems fossil doesn't like my certificate, but it's a
Let's-Encrypt one and Google Chrome and Firefox are happy with it.

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
Unable to verify SSL cert from fossil.heaven.mil
subject: CN = fossil.heaven.mil
issuer: C = US, O = Let's Encrypt, CN = R3
notBefore: 2022-09-08 01:15:14 UTC
notAfter: 2022-12-07 01:15:13 UTC
sha256: ab15f1a43a7ebbd009e5c891177c57bce4dfbae7d9968eeed844aefe2bb5d031
accept this cert and continue (y/N/fingerprint)? Y
remember this exception (y/N)?
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Any idea why? Thank you!

Bruce Horrocks <07.013@scorecrow.com> writes:

> On 04/09/2022 21:41, Meredith Montgomery wrote:
>> Bruce Horrocks <07.013@scorecrow.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 01/09/2022 02:07, Meredith Montgomery wrote:
>>>> I'm thiking about creating UNIX accounts merely for students to upload
>>>> their homework through scp.
>> [...]
>>
>>> The suggestions to have your own Unix server receive email are all
>>> well and good but setting it up *and securing it* is a PITA.
>> Good point.
>>
>>> An alternative is to use Amazon's SES (Simple Email Service)
>>> <https://aws.amazon.com/ses/details/>
>>>
>>> Your volumes are probably low enough that the free tier will cover
>>> everything, and it's easy to have a script run on receipt of an
>>> email. Anti-virus scanning of the attachments is automatic.
>> That's interesting. I watched a video in which they set up an S3
>> bucket
>> and the mail is stored there. I guess I could then write a program to
>> download all files and extract attachments. I'd have to learn to use
>> the S3 API. This seems simple enough, elegant enough.
>
> No need to learn the S3 API if you don't want to as an S3 bucket can
> be mounted as a filesystem.
>
> <https://cloud.netapp.com/blog/amazon-s3-as-a-file-system>

Interesting! Good to know! Thank you!

Meredith Montgomery <mmontgomery@levado.to> wrote:
> Next question. It seems fossil doesn't like my certificate, but it's
> a Let's-Encrypt one and Google Chrome and Firefox are happy with it.
>
> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> Unable to verify SSL cert from fossil.heaven.mil
> subject: CN = fossil.heaven.mil
> issuer: C = US, O = Let's Encrypt, CN = R3
> notBefore: 2022-09-08 01:15:14 UTC
> notAfter: 2022-12-07 01:15:13 UTC
> sha256: ab15f1a43a7ebbd009e5c891177c57bce4dfbae7d9968eeed844aefe2bb5d031
> accept this cert and continue (y/N/fingerprint)? Y
> remember this exception (y/N)?
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>
> Any idea why? Thank you!

Most likely is wherever fossil is looking for root certificates, it
does not have the lets-encrypt root certificate in that store.

With that said, I do not know /where/ it might be looking to find root
certs, so you'll have to see if the docs give you any clues on that
one.

You can download a copy of the root cert from the Lets-Encrypt website
somewhere (I don't remember where, so go hunting for that too).

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 01:36:16 -0000 (UTC), Rich
<rich@example.invalid> wrote:

> Most likely is wherever fossil is looking for root certificates, it
> does not have the lets-encrypt root certificate in that store.
>
> With that said, I do not know /where/ it might be looking to find root
> certs, so you'll have to see if the docs give you any clues on that
> one.
>
> You can download a copy of the root cert from the Lets-Encrypt website
> somewhere (I don't remember where, so go hunting for that too).

Very likely indeed. The fossil client can be configured where to
look for root certificates, if they are not in "some standard
location".

See:
fossil help ssl-ca-location

--
Regards,
Kees Nuyt

Kees Nuyt <k.nuyt@nospam.demon.nl> writes:

> On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 01:36:16 -0000 (UTC), Rich
> <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Most likely is wherever fossil is looking for root certificates, it
>> does not have the lets-encrypt root certificate in that store.
>>
>> With that said, I do not know /where/ it might be looking to find root
>> certs, so you'll have to see if the docs give you any clues on that
>> one.
>>
>> You can download a copy of the root cert from the Lets-Encrypt website
>> somewhere (I don't remember where, so go hunting for that too).
>
> Very likely indeed. The fossil client can be configured where to
> look for root certificates, if they are not in "some standard
> location".
>
> See:
> fossil help ssl-ca-location

Thank you. It's not worth it to set this up because that's a client
thing. Fossil saves the identity of the certificate in its config-db,
so I'd have to somehow manage to do that in every client workstation,
but repository users may decide to clone their repository anywhere ---
when they'd see the certificate not being identified. Not the end of
the world.

On Sat, 17 Sep 2022 21:54:36 -0300, Meredith Montgomery
<mmontgomery@levado.to> wrote:

> Thank you. It's not worth it to set this up because that's a client
> thing.

Yeah, understandable.

> Fossil saves the identity of the certificate in its config-db,
> so I'd have to somehow manage to do that in every client workstation,
> but repository users may decide to clone their repository anywhere ---
> when they'd see the certificate not being identified. Not the end of
> the world.

Some fossil per-repo settings can be saved on disk, as part of
the checkout, so they would be set as soon as a student clones
and opens hir/her repo.

From `fossil help settings`:
"Settings marked as versionable are overridden
by the contents of the file named
.fossil-settings/PROPERTY in the
check-out root, if that file exists."

I have no idea if that helps for certificate
related info. I'm afraid these are not versionable.

--
Regards,
Kees Nuyt

Meredith Montgomery <mmontgomery@levado.to> wrote:
>kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:
>
>> Meredith Montgomery <mmontgomery@levado.to> wrote:
>>>
>>>I can't run a MTA in this server because e-mail ports are blocked by the
>>>ISP. I can pay more and get that out of the way, though.
>>
>> Your ISP sure has an awful lot of spammers using their service, though.
>> Maybe they only allow outgoing mail and not incoming? Perhaps you should
>> get a competent ISP.
>
>I think they think their price is really low and spammers would buy
>these servers just to send out mail. I've no idea. It's what it is. I
>don't mind paying more for a nice server. But we gotta do one thing at
>a time.

1and1 and hetzner are the two major spam sources in Europe. Some months
one is on the top of the spam statistic list, other months it's the other.
If you attempt to contact tech support at either one you will find it
difficult to talk to someone who knows something about computers. These
two facts are likely related.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:

> Meredith Montgomery <mmontgomery@levado.to> wrote:
>>kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:
>>
>>> Meredith Montgomery <mmontgomery@levado.to> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>I can't run a MTA in this server because e-mail ports are blocked by the
>>>>ISP. I can pay more and get that out of the way, though.
>>>
>>> Your ISP sure has an awful lot of spammers using their service, though.
>>> Maybe they only allow outgoing mail and not incoming? Perhaps you should
>>> get a competent ISP.
>>
>>I think they think their price is really low and spammers would buy
>>these servers just to send out mail. I've no idea. It's what it is. I
>>don't mind paying more for a nice server. But we gotta do one thing at
>>a time.
>
> 1and1 and hetzner are the two major spam sources in Europe. Some months
> one is on the top of the spam statistic list, other months it's the other.

Where do you see these statistics? I'd love to see it, too.

> If you attempt to contact tech support at either one you will find it
> difficult to talk to someone who knows something about computers.
> These two facts are likely related.

That's good to know. Any recommendations for such service providers?