On 2023-11-07 04:43, VanguardLH wrote:
> "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>
>> Right now, BASE64 encoding is one of the tests Ray Banana and others
>> are using for NoCeMs as the Google-originating spam countermeasure.
>> If any such articles get through to you, it's best to add an entry in
>> your kill file.
>
> For reasons I don't know, Ed Cryer sometimes posts using Base64, but I
> suspect he doesn't intend to. I think Thunderbird is making the
> decision for him, but could be due to how he configured that client.
> Luckily Jeff sumbits to ES, not GG, so he's safe from Ray -- but not
> from my filters that flag any posts using Base64.

You could flag just (GG & Base64)

>
> winston uses UTF-8 chars instead of ASCII in his From header that forces
> MIME encoding *and* uses Base64 encoding. No idea why "winston" in all
> ASCII isn't good enough for him. He also uses Thunderbird. I do have a
> filter for "^=\?\S+\?\S+\?\S+\?=$" regex on the Subject header's value
> (looking for "=?charset?encoding?encodedtext?="), but haven't yet added
> one looking for encoding in the From header. For now, I don't delete,
> but just colorize to alert me of header encoding.

I think Winston does it intentionally, I get something unreadable,
"...w¡ñ§±¤ñ"

But just staying within Europe, there are names that can not be written
with the first 127 chars of ASCII. Using the other 128 and you also need
to specify charset. Or go to to utf8.

>
> So, there are good guys that are using Base 64 and MIME encoding of
> headers without good reason. My guess it's a fuckup in the config of
> Thunderbird, or with the logic in that client.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> On 2023-11-07 04:43, VanguardLH wrote:
>> "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Right now, BASE64 encoding is one of the tests Ray Banana and others
>>> are using for NoCeMs as the Google-originating spam countermeasure.
>>> If any such articles get through to you, it's best to add an entry in
>>> your kill file.
>>
>> For reasons I don't know, Ed Cryer sometimes posts using Base64, but I
>> suspect he doesn't intend to. I think Thunderbird is making the
>> decision for him, but could be due to how he configured that client.
>> Luckily Jeff sumbits to ES, not GG, so he's safe from Ray -- but not
>> from my filters that flag any posts using Base64.
>
> You could flag just (GG & Base64)

Nah, I don't see any GG posts. Ray filters out spam from GG. I filter
out everything from GG: spam, scam, phish, trolls, malcontents,
peuriles, and uber boobs. Ray has the harder job. Blocking all GG is
much easier, and makes Usenet much quieter and sane.

http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/

>> winston uses UTF-8 chars instead of ASCII in his From header that forces
>> MIME encoding *and* uses Base64 encoding. No idea why "winston" in all
>> ASCII isn't good enough for him. He also uses Thunderbird. I do have a
>> filter for "^=\?\S+\?\S+\?\S+\?=$" regex on the Subject header's value
>> (looking for "=?charset?encoding?encodedtext?="), but haven't yet added
>> one looking for encoding in the From header. For now, I don't delete,
>> but just colorize to alert me of header encoding.
>
> I think Winston does it intentionally, I get something unreadable,
> "...w¡ñ§±¤ñ"

Had a discussion about it with him a while ago. At that time, he
claimed sometimes Seamonkey did it, and he didn't want it. We reviewed
some settings, but I am not familiar with Seamonkey, and nothing looked
promising other than charset, but that doesn't apply to headers that
must be all ASCII and why there is MIME encoding to ASCII to accomodate
non-ASCII chars in headers.

When he starts a new thread, his nym is "...winston" (all ASCII). When
he replies, his From header is encoded. Relevant headers in his
submissions (start & reply) are the same except the From header is
encoded in his replies.

Seamonkey has/had settings seperately for viewing versus composition on
charset fallbacks. I think both fallback lists start with "Default for
current locale", but I would think would remain the same whether
starting a thread or replying to one. There is a checkbox that
differentiates when encoding gets used:

[ ] When possible, use this default text encoding in replies
(When unchecked, only new messages use this default)

I don't remember what charsets are listed in his composition charset
fallback list. Also, charset options are scattered elsewhere in
Seamonkey, like:

In Mail/News 'New message compose' window menu:
Options -> text encoding
In Mail/News 'View messages' windows menu:
View -> text encoding
In Mail/News 'View messages' folders pane:
Folder properties -> fallback text encoding

Could be the auto-detect or default selection in the fallback charset
list. If to what winston replies has ill-formed headers (specifies
charset that doesn't contain the actual chars in the message, or
specifies the wrong charset) then Seamonkey can guess wrong on which
charset to use. If so, it's stupid to somehow apply encoding to the
From header just because the charset is wrong for the message.

I have not looked at all instances of where winston replies, and his
From header gets encoded. Of a couple that I looked at, the parent
article to which he replied specified 7-bit encoding (see MID
<ui0pgs$11pu$1@paganini.bofh.team>), as in:

Content-Type: text/plain;
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In another example where winston's From gets encoded (MID
<uhllbd$3sp7p$1@dont-email.me>), encoding is not specified, so Seamonkey
had to guess.

In another example where his From gets encoded, the parent article again
specified 7-bit encoding:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Seems Seamonkey gets perturbed when replying to a 7-bit encoded parent
article, or has to guess on a charset when the parent article didn't
specify which to use. However, whatever charset (specified or
defaulted) gets used for the body of the message, that should be
irrelevant to the headers. Or is it? Maybe the encoding of the message
body affects the encoding of headers into an ASCII7 string.

When winston encodes his From header, it specifies UTF-8 for charset:

From: =?UTF-8?B?Li4ud8Khw7HCp8KxwqTDsSA=?= <winstonmvp@gmail.com>
^^^^^
which matches on his header:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Winston also uses 8-bit characters in his signature.

Seems Seamonkey makes a wrong guess when using whatever is the default
charset, or when the parent article specified 7-bit encoding, that
triggers it to encode his From header.

Or maybe it's something completely different in winston's config of
Seamonkey that has him using an ASCII7 comment-spec field (name) in his
From versus him using 8-bit characters there. Sometimes his nym is just
"...winston", and sometimes it's encoded garbage, like using different
Seamonkey profiles when starting a thread versus when replying to one.
Maybe seeing him encode his From on replying where Seamonkey uses the
wrong default charset or changing from 7-bit to 8-bit is just an
artifact of why Seamonkey is using different nyms in his From header.

winston doesn't want to look into the anomaly, and I don't use Seamonkey
to check what are its settings that could cause this effect. It's like
me guessing what's on the other side of a window covered with obscuring
security film.

VanguardLH wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-11-07 04:43, VanguardLH wrote:
>>> "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Right now, BASE64 encoding is one of the tests Ray Banana and others
>>>> are using for NoCeMs as the Google-originating spam countermeasure.
>>>> If any such articles get through to you, it's best to add an entry in
>>>> your kill file.
>>>
>>> For reasons I don't know, Ed Cryer sometimes posts using Base64, but I
>>> suspect he doesn't intend to. I think Thunderbird is making the
>>> decision for him, but could be due to how he configured that client.
>>> Luckily Jeff sumbits to ES, not GG, so he's safe from Ray -- but not
>>> from my filters that flag any posts using Base64.
>>
>> You could flag just (GG & Base64)
>
> Nah, I don't see any GG posts. Ray filters out spam from GG. I filter
> out everything from GG: spam, scam, phish, trolls, malcontents,
> peuriles, and uber boobs. Ray has the harder job. Blocking all GG is
> much easier, and makes Usenet much quieter and sane.
>
> http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
>
>>> winston uses UTF-8 chars instead of ASCII in his From header that forces
>>> MIME encoding *and* uses Base64 encoding. No idea why "winston" in all
>>> ASCII isn't good enough for him. He also uses Thunderbird. I do have a
>>> filter for "^=\?\S+\?\S+\?\S+\?=$" regex on the Subject header's value
>>> (looking for "=?charset?encoding?encodedtext?="), but haven't yet added
>>> one looking for encoding in the From header. For now, I don't delete,
>>> but just colorize to alert me of header encoding.
>>
>> I think Winston does it intentionally, I get something unreadable,
>> "...w¡ñ§±¤ñ"
>
> Had a discussion about it with him a while ago. At that time, he
> claimed sometimes Seamonkey did it, and he didn't want it. We reviewed
> some settings, but I am not familiar with Seamonkey, and nothing looked
> promising other than charset, but that doesn't apply to headers that
> must be all ASCII and why there is MIME encoding to ASCII to accomodate
> non-ASCII chars in headers.
>
> When he starts a new thread, his nym is "...winston" (all ASCII). When
> he replies, his From header is encoded. Relevant headers in his
> submissions (start & reply) are the same except the From header is
> encoded in his replies.
>
> Seamonkey has/had settings seperately for viewing versus composition on
> charset fallbacks. I think both fallback lists start with "Default for
> current locale", but I would think would remain the same whether
> starting a thread or replying to one. There is a checkbox that
> differentiates when encoding gets used:
>
> [ ] When possible, use this default text encoding in replies
> (When unchecked, only new messages use this default)
>
> I don't remember what charsets are listed in his composition charset
> fallback list. Also, charset options are scattered elsewhere in
> Seamonkey, like:
>
> In Mail/News 'New message compose' window menu:
> Options -> text encoding
> In Mail/News 'View messages' windows menu:
> View -> text encoding
> In Mail/News 'View messages' folders pane:
> Folder properties -> fallback text encoding
>
> Could be the auto-detect or default selection in the fallback charset
> list. If to what winston replies has ill-formed headers (specifies
> charset that doesn't contain the actual chars in the message, or
> specifies the wrong charset) then Seamonkey can guess wrong on which
> charset to use. If so, it's stupid to somehow apply encoding to the
> From header just because the charset is wrong for the message.
>
> I have not looked at all instances of where winston replies, and his
> From header gets encoded. Of a couple that I looked at, the parent
> article to which he replied specified 7-bit encoding (see MID
> <ui0pgs$11pu$1@paganini.bofh.team>), as in:
>
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> In another example where winston's From gets encoded (MID
> <uhllbd$3sp7p$1@dont-email.me>), encoding is not specified, so Seamonkey
> had to guess.
>
> In another example where his From gets encoded, the parent article again
> specified 7-bit encoding:
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Seems Seamonkey gets perturbed when replying to a 7-bit encoded parent
> article, or has to guess on a charset when the parent article didn't
> specify which to use. However, whatever charset (specified or
> defaulted) gets used for the body of the message, that should be
> irrelevant to the headers. Or is it? Maybe the encoding of the message
> body affects the encoding of headers into an ASCII7 string.
>
> When winston encodes his From header, it specifies UTF-8 for charset:
>
> From: =?UTF-8?B?Li4ud8Khw7HCp8KxwqTDsSA=?= <winstonmvp@gmail.com>
> ^^^^^
> which matches on his header:
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> Winston also uses 8-bit characters in his signature.
>
> Seems Seamonkey makes a wrong guess when using whatever is the default
> charset, or when the parent article specified 7-bit encoding, that
> triggers it to encode his From header.
>
> Or maybe it's something completely different in winston's config of
> Seamonkey that has him using an ASCII7 comment-spec field (name) in his
> From versus him using 8-bit characters there. Sometimes his nym is just
> "...winston", and sometimes it's encoded garbage, like using different
> Seamonkey profiles when starting a thread versus when replying to one.
> Maybe seeing him encode his From on replying where Seamonkey uses the
> wrong default charset or changing from 7-bit to 8-bit is just an
> artifact of why Seamonkey is using different nyms in his From header.
>
> winston doesn't want to look into the anomaly, and I don't use Seamonkey
> to check what are its settings that could cause this effect. It's like
> me guessing what's on the other side of a window covered with obscuring
> security film.
>

Thunderbird started life using the code from the Mozilla Suite - which
was itself descended from Netscape 4.x, the Mozilla Suite was
subsequently renamed "Seamonkey".
imho the two are still close enough that updates for one can be adapted
for use on the other. If you don't know how Seamonkey behaves under
certain circumstances, looking at how Thunderbird behaves will get you a
long way. I believe the differences are increasing, but winston has
been around for years so that is not an issue.

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>>I just had a look in my Thunderbird, and what I see is both mail and
>>news having "headername: headervalue".

>RFC 822 (c.1982) specifies:

>field = field-name ":" [ field-body ] CRLF

>for header syntax, or headername:headervalue for easier reading. No
>spaces either side of colon, but field-body could have leading and
>trailing spaces. Even the examples in the RFC show a space after the
>colon. I don't remember anyone used the RFC syntax with no space after
>the colon. Even RFC 733 (c.1977) that RFC 822 obsoleted shows a space,
>or more than 1, after the colon for its examples.

>Seems "Do what I do, not what I say" happened from the start.

No, I don't think that's what it was. I think the authors assumed
everybody understood the concept of "word", bounded by spaces or a line
boundary, and would have put the space after the punctuation mark
without it being a necessary part of the syntax.

I think the author of RFC 1036 must have tripped over examples in which
that wasn't being done and made it part of 1036's syntax.

>. . .

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>>Right now, BASE64 encoding is one of the tests Ray Banana and others
>>are using for NoCeMs as the Google-originating spam countermeasure.
>>If any such articles get through to you, it's best to add an entry in
>>your kill file.

>For reasons I don't know, Ed Cryer sometimes posts using Base64, but I
>suspect he doesn't intend to. I think Thunderbird is making the
>decision for him, but could be due to how he configured that client.
>Luckily Jeff sumbits to ES, not GG, so he's safe from Ray -- but not
>from my filters that flag any posts using Base64.

Ok. Not that I read Ed Cryer, but that is an example of the very reason
why I started this thread. Where are the settings to change this very
undesireable behavior on the part of Thunderbird and Seamonkey?

>winston uses UTF-8 chars instead of ASCII in his From header that forces
>MIME encoding *and* uses Base64 encoding. No idea why "winston" in all
>ASCII isn't good enough for him. He also uses Thunderbird. I do have a
>filter for "^=\?\S+\?\S+\?\S+\?=$" regex on the Subject header's value
>(looking for "=?charset?encoding?encodedtext?="), but haven't yet added
>one looking for encoding in the From header. For now, I don't delete,
>but just colorize to alert me of header encoding.

I'm sure I've seen him. If you could point out a newsgroup or
Message-ID, I'll take a look. That certainly sounds like a deliberate
annoyance.

>So, there are good guys that are using Base 64 and MIME encoding of
>headers without good reason. My guess it's a fuckup in the config of
>Thunderbird, or with the logic in that client.

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

>. . .

>When he starts a new thread, his nym is "...winston" (all ASCII). When
>he replies, his From header is encoded. Relevant headers in his
>submissions (start & reply) are the same except the From header is
>encoded in his replies.

A common Autotext entry will convert "..." into the UTF-8 character code
for points of ellipsis, which is its own character and something fonts get
very wrong as it's missing interstitial en spaces or ASCII space. Points
of suspension have no interstitial spaces.

I'll bet that's what's doing it.

>. . .

VanguardLH wrote on 11/7/23 8:03 AM:
> Seamonkey has/had settings seperately for viewing versus composition on
> charset fallbacks. I think both fallback lists start with "Default for
> current locale", but I would think would remain the same whether
> starting a thread or replying to one. There is a checkbox that
> differentiates when encoding gets used:
>
> [ ] When possible, use this default text encoding in replies
> (When unchecked, only new messages use this default)

Yes, Default for Current Locale is the default setting in SeamMoneky.
In SeaMonkey(latest build in use on this W11 Pro device), the above is
unchecked.
Other Text Encoding current settings
Text Encoding/Message Display
-Fallback Text Encoding = Default for current locale (Unicode UTF8 is
not enabled)
Text Encoding/Composing Messages (all unchecked, i.e. not enabled)
- For messages that contain 8 bit characters, use quoted printable MIME
encoding. Leave unchecked to send message as is.
- Default for locale(Unicode UTF8 is not enabled)
- When possible, use this default text encoding in replies(When
unchecked only new messages use this default)
>
> I don't remember what charsets are listed in his composition charset
> fallback list.

See above on Text Encoding/Composing Messages

> Also, charset options are scattered elsewhere in > Seamonkey, like:
>
> In Mail/News 'New message compose' window menu:
> Options -> text encoding
Configured to the default setting(Unicode, other options available but
never modified in this setting are Western and a variety of country specific

> In Mail/News 'View messages' windows menu:
> View -> text encoding
Carlos messages indicate Unicode
Vanguard(yours) messages indidcate Western
Mine indicate Unicode

> In Mail/News 'View messages' folders pane:
> Folder properties -> fallback text encoding
Configuration for Fallback Text Encoding shows Western ISO-8859-1
Also, not enabled is the Fallback setting - Apply encoding to all
messages in the folder(individual message text encoding settings and
auto-detect will be ignored

> When winston encodes his From header, it specifies UTF-8 for charset:
> From: =?UTF-8?B?Li4ud8Khw7HCp8KxwqTDsSA=?= <winstonmvp@gmail.com>
> which matches on his header:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
>
> It's like
> me guessing what's on the other side of a window covered with obscuring
> security film.
>
Or it is something simple like wearing a garlic necklace around the neck
to prevent vampires. No vampires showed up, so why change it.
i.e. been doing it for almost two decades beginning in the
msnnews.microsoft.com newsgroup and other private nttp non-Usenet group
with OE, Windows Mail, Windows Live Mail newsreaders
=> the From field and signature name is nothing more than using Character
Map to create a string of characters.

w = standard lowercase 'w' keystroke
¡ = Alt 0161
ñ = Alt 0241
§ = Alt 0167
± = Alt 0177
¤ = Alt 0164
ñ = Alt 0241

Finally, this discussion afaics is no longer relevant to the thunderbird
or seamonkey groups or the original topic of Eternal Sept being down. Not
sure there's even a relevant group(not going to look). I've nothing more
to add.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>
>>. . .
>
>>When he starts a new thread, his nym is "...winston" (all ASCII). When
>>he replies, his From header is encoded. Relevant headers in his
>>submissions (start & reply) are the same except the From header is
>>encoded in his replies.
>
> A common Autotext entry will convert "..." into the UTF-8 character code
> for points of ellipsis, which is its own character and something fonts get
> very wrong as it's missing interstitial en spaces or ASCII space. Points
> of suspension have no interstitial spaces.
>
> I'll bet that's what's doing it.
>
>>. . .

That's what I thought at first: 3 dots auto-corrected to an ellipsis.
However, winston has other non-ASCII characters in his nym (well, in the
comment field in his From header). Even without the ellipsis, encoding
would be required for the other characters. However, sometimes he posts
with "...winston" (all ASCII), and sometimes his from is encoded to
represent the non-ASCII characters. When he starts a thread, or he
replies to himself, his From is all ASCII. Often (I can't say always)
when he replies to someone else is when his From is encoded.

Winston also has non-ASCII characters in his signature block which is
there regardless of which form of From he uses. His non-ASCII sig is in
all his posts whether he started a thread or replied to one.

When replying, he uses UTF-8. The parent article from which he quotes
could be 7-bit, or 8-bit. Sometimes the parent article specifies a
charset that my match or be different than UTF-8 that winston uses.

I was thinking he was using different Seamonkey profiles when starting a
thread versus when he replies, but that would require manual
intervention to switch between profiles unless Seamonkey does it for
him. I don't know if he has more than one Seamonkey profile.

I have been cursory in inspecting his posts. My results are no
exhaustive of every time his From is encoded. My observation, so far,
is he uses all ASCII when he starts a thread, or replies to his start
post, but is encoded when he replies to others.

I see winston replied here (with encoded From header), so I'll read that
next to see what he says.

winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:
^^^^^^^
Changed to ASCII-7 characters. When speaking someone's name or
introducing them, I don't say "dot dot dot w something unpronouncable".

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> It's like me guessing what's on the other side of a window covered
>> with obscuring security film.
>>
> Or it is something simple like wearing a garlic necklace around the neck
> to prevent vampires. No vampires showed up, so why change it.

Non-vampires may not show up, too.

> i.e. been doing it for almost two decades beginning in the
> msnnews.microsoft.com newsgroup and other private nttp non-Usenet group
> with OE, Windows Mail, Windows Live Mail newsreaders

Doing it the same way for years doesn't necessitate it is the correct
way. A buddy and I riding in his car for lunch were singing to a c.1989
Roxette song playing on the radio. We noticed we used different words.
Me: "dressed for success"
Him: "dressed for some sex"
Mine was correct, but his was more interesting.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOghMB5sNsY)

As for Microsoft combo clients (email+newsgroups), those have not been
the stellar examples of how to compose either e-mail or newsgroup
messages.

- Although OE got an update along with an IE update that provided
registry edits to change where the sigblock was positioned (which
should always be at the end of the entire message) or top- versus
bottom-posting (but OE could still do it only one way for both e-mail
and newsgroups), rare few OE uses did the registry edits. It was part
of Service Pack 3 for Windows XP. OE was also notorious for jaggy
quoting.
o Outlook Express was previously named Internet Mail & Newgroups
(IMN), and why OE's executable was still named msimn.exe.
Microsoft bought IMN from elsewhere to bring with IE3 a limited
client to Windows under their "Outlook" family, but then users
were constantly confusing OE as a light version of Outlook.
Microsoft often conflates and confuses their product naming.
OE-QuoteFix came out to repair some of OE's failings. OE Classic
(https://www.oeclassic.com/) came out to repair OE's fuck ups.
- Windows Live Mail got fucked up after version 14. It no longer
prepended the quote character (often ">", but other chars are
allowed). The result is you couldn't tell in a reply if the content
was from a parent article or new content in the reply -- unless the
user made the fix, but then OE users were notoriously lazy. Because
of Microsoft's fuck up with WLM 15, I have a rule to colorize posts by
WLM 15+ posters to alert me to the probable lack of proper quoting.

> the From field and signature name is nothing more than using Character
> Map to create a string of characters.

Alas, even if you pick "DOS: United States" for the character set shown
by Charmap, it will show ASCII-8, not ASCII-7.

> w = standard lowercase 'w' keystroke
> ¡ = Alt 0161
> ñ = Alt 0241
> § = Alt 0167
> ± = Alt 0177
> ¤ = Alt 0164
> ñ = Alt 0241

Those are not ASCII-7 which is mandated for the names and values of
headers hence the need for encoding your From header. Drifting outside
of ASCII-7 requires MIME encoding despite the characters are ASCII-8.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5322#section-2.1
A message that is conformant with this specification is composed of
characters with values in the range of 1 through 127 and interpreted
as US-ASCII [ANSI.X3-4.1986] characters. For brevity, this document
sometimes refers to this range of characters as simply "US-ASCII
characters".

Their US-ASCII is what is often called ASCII-7 to differentiate from
ASCII-8.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5322#section-2.2
A field name MUST be composed of printable US-ASCII characters (i.e.,
characters that have values between 33 and 126, inclusive), except
colon.
A field body may be composed of printable US-ASCII characters
as well as the space (SP, ASCII value 32) and horizontal tab (HTAB,
ASCII value 9) characters (together known as the white space
characters, WSP).

Yet sometimes when you post your nym is "...winston" and other times it
is "...w¡ñ§±¤ñ". I'm trying to figure what triggers the difference in
Seamonkey (which is obviously not Thunderbird, but this is a sub-topic
that drifted to other than the starter topic). Thunderbird has its own
problems, too, so perhaps something of Seamonkey is still evidenced in
Thunderbird.

I'm trying to determine why Seamonkey sometimes uses ASCII-7 for your
From header, but sometimes uses encoded ASCII-8. If you defined your
nym using ASCII-8 characters above the 127 code value, why do some of
your posts have all ASCII-7 in your From header? Seems you have 2 nyms
defined somewhere in Seamonkey:

....winston (ASCII-7, no encoding required)
and
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ (ASCII-8, requires RFC 2047 MIME encoding)

Those are different strings, not encoding differences. It's not like
the ASCII-8 version is a superlative variation of the ASCII-7 version.
Except for the dots and w, the rest are different characters between the
two versions.

Not matching charsets between parent article and a reply, or bitwidth
encoding differences (7-bit vs 8-bit) declared for the message body
might've been a red herring. Maybe the simpler answer is 2 different
nyms defined in Seamonkey, or 2 instances of Seamonkey with different
nyms in each.

"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>
>> winston uses UTF-8 chars instead of ASCII in his From header that
>> forces MIME encoding *and* uses Base64 encoding. No idea why
>> "winston" in all ASCII isn't good enough for him. He also uses
>> Thunderbird. I do have a filter for "^=\?\S+\?\S+\?\S+\?=$" regex
>> on the Subject header's value (looking for
>> "=?charset?encoding?encodedtext?="), but haven't yet added one
>> looking for encoding in the From header. For now, I don't delete,
>> but just colorize to alert me of header encoding.
>
> I'm sure I've seen him. If you could point out a newsgroup or
> Message-ID, I'll take a look. That certainly sounds like a deliberate
> annoyance.

In my reply to Carlos, I mention some MIDs for his post where sometimes
his From is all ASCII-7 characters, but sometimes it uses ASCII-8
characters which mandate the MIME encoding (all headers must be ASCII-7
characters for both header name and header value, so encoding is needed
from ASCII-8 to ASCII-7).

winston replied here and noted his settings, but I'm not sure any are
overtly wrong. Because some of his posts use ASCII-7 for his From
header, and some of his posts use encoded ASCII-8, maybe he has 2
different profiles with different nyms, or Seamonkey is configured to
use a different nym when starting a thread versus replying to one, or he
is using 2 instances of Seamonkey, like on different computers, that
have different nyms.

"...winston" is *NOT* the same as "...w¡ñ§±¤ñ", so this counts as
sockpuppeting or nymshifting. Possibly someone else wanting to use
"winston" decided to use a different but similar looking string, so I'm
conflating two different winstons: "...winston" is not "...w¡ñ§±¤ñ".

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

>>. . .

>>When he starts a new thread, his nym is "...winston" (all ASCII). When
>>he replies, his From header is encoded. Relevant headers in his
>>submissions (start & reply) are the same except the From header is
>>encoded in his replies.

>A common Autotext entry will convert "..." into the UTF-8 character code
>for points of ellipsis, which is its own character and something fonts get
>very wrong as it's missing interstitial en spaces or ASCII space. Points
>of suspension have no interstitial spaces.

>I'll bet that's what's doing it.

>>. . .

Forget this followup.

Now that I've looked, I understand what you're saying. He substituted
UTF-8 characters for several of the letters in his name. That forces
UTF-8 in followup because the attribution line quotes the From header.

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

>>. . .

>In my reply to Carlos, I mention some MIDs for his post where sometimes
>his From is all ASCII-7 characters, but sometimes it uses ASCII-8
>characters which mandate the MIME encoding (all headers must be ASCII-7
>characters for both header name and header value, so encoding is needed
>from ASCII-8 to ASCII-7).

Never mind. I saw one. Yes, I see what you are saying.

>. . .

VanguardLH wrote on 11/7/23 12:44 PM:
>
> I'm trying to determine why Seamonkey sometimes uses ASCII-7 for your
> From header, but sometimes uses encoded ASCII-8. If you defined your
> nym using ASCII-8 characters above the 127 code value, why do some of
> your posts have all ASCII-7 in your From header? Seems you have 2 nyms
> defined somewhere in Seamonkey:
>
> ...winston (ASCII-7, no encoding required)
> and
> ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ (ASCII-8, requires RFC 2047 MIME encoding)

It's not SeaMonkey having two nyms.
Nor is it Thunderbird or Windows Live Mail having two nyms.

But those 3 news clients are in use on multiple devices(3) :)

fyi...this one is from TBird.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

....w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote on 8/11/2023 11:26 am:
> VanguardLH wrote on 11/7/23 12:44 PM:
>>
>> I'm trying to determine why Seamonkey sometimes uses ASCII-7 for your
>>  From header, but sometimes uses encoded ASCII-8.  If you defined your
>> nym using ASCII-8 characters above the 127 code value, why do some of
>> your posts have all ASCII-7 in your From header?  Seems you have 2 nyms
>> defined somewhere in Seamonkey:
>>
>> ...winston    (ASCII-7, no encoding required)
>> and
>> ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ    (ASCII-8, requires RFC 2047 MIME encoding)
>
> It's not SeaMonkey having two nyms.
> Nor is it Thunderbird or Windows Live Mail having two nyms.
>
> But those 3 news clients are in use on multiple devices(3) :)
>
> fyi...this one is from TBird.
>
Have you modified its set-up then, Winston, cause its User Agent is
showing as .....

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Firefox/91.0 SeaMonkey/2.53.17.1

Firefox .... SeaMonkey .... but no mention of Tbird!!
--
Daniel

On 11/7/23 5:26 PM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
> VanguardLH wrote on 11/7/23 12:44 PM:
>>
>> I'm trying to determine why Seamonkey sometimes uses ASCII-7 for your
>>  From header, but sometimes uses encoded ASCII-8.  If you defined your
>> nym using ASCII-8 characters above the 127 code value, why do some of
>> your posts have all ASCII-7 in your From header?  Seems you have 2 nyms
>> defined somewhere in Seamonkey:
>>
>> ...winston    (ASCII-7, no encoding required)
>> and
>> ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ    (ASCII-8, requires RFC 2047 MIME encoding)
>
> It's not SeaMonkey having two nyms.
> Nor is it Thunderbird or Windows Live Mail having two nyms.
>
> But those 3 news clients are in use on multiple devices(3) :)
>
> fyi...this one is from TBird.
>
Whoops, ignore the last line. Sorry. Juggling too many things and
windows at same time.
Created the reply in SM, copied it from SM to TB but sent it from SM.
This one from TBird.

(Still getting use to TB Supernova 115 build)

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> I'm trying to determine why Seamonkey sometimes uses ASCII-7 for your
>> From header, but sometimes uses encoded ASCII-8. If you defined
>> your nym using ASCII-8 characters above the 127 code value, why do
>> some of your posts have all ASCII-7 in your From header? Seems you
>> have 2 nyms defined somewhere in Seamonkey:
>>
>> ...winston (ASCII-7, no encoding required)
>> and
>> ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ (ASCII-8, requires RFC 2047 MIME encoding)
>
> It's not SeaMonkey having two nyms.
> Nor is it Thunderbird or Windows Live Mail having two nyms.
>
> But those 3 news clients are in use on multiple devices(3) :)

3 newsreaders on 3 hosts. Is that:

#1: 1 copy of Seamonkey on host 1,
1 copy of Tbird on host 2,
1 copy of WLM on host 3?
Each host has only 1 newsreader that the other 2 hosts don't have?
Total newsreaders = 3.

#2: 1 copy of Seamonkey,
1 copy of Tbird,
1 copy of WLM
on each host?
Each host a copy of each newsreader, so 3 clients per host?
Total newsreaders = 3 x 3 = 9.

If #2, I can see the nym could be different in different instances of a
newsreader. 3 instances of Seamonkey: 1 on each host.

If #1 where you have only 1 instance of Seamonkey on only 1 host, and
you don't have 2 nyms in that lone instance of Seamonkey, then how could
it ever put "...winston" in the From header?

If the nym you specify in every newsreader is "...w¡ñ§±¤ñ" then how
could any newsreader you use put "...winston" in the From header? There
is no look-alike translation or conversion from "...w¡ñ§±¤ñ" to
"...winston". Those are different strings, like "abcde" is different
than "12345".

"...winston" = hex 2E 2E 2E 77 69 73 6E 74 6F 6E

"...w¡ñ§±¤ñ" = hex 2E 2E 2E 77 A1 F1 A7 B1 A4 F1

hex difference 0 0 0 0 38 7E 39 3D 35 83

With varying differences, there's no rollover or offset that would allow
one string to map to the other.

You're saying "...w¡ñ§±¤ñ" is your only nym in all instances of
Seamonkey (whether you 1, 2, or 3 instances of Seamonkey). And you
don't have more than 1 nym defined in any instance of Seamonkey. Was
the following article yours that uses "...winston" (all ASCII-7, and not
"...w¡ñ§±¤ñ")? Or a forger? Or do we have 2 different winstons here
with each prefixing 3 dots to their nym, but one is plain winston and
the other uses a look-alike string?

http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3Cugffpo%2496vq%241%40dont-email.me%3E

Kerman mentioned blind users (when I mentioned Lynx versus Mosaic), but
there could be some blind users here, too, in Usenet. I wonder how a
text reader for the blind would pronounce ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ.

VanguardLH wrote on 11/8/23 12:07 AM:
> winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:
>> It's not SeaMonkey having two nyms.
>> Nor is it Thunderbird or Windows Live Mail having two nyms.
>>
>> But those 3 news clients are in use on multiple devices(3) :)
>
>
> #2: 1 copy of Seamonkey,
> 1 copy of Tbird,
> 1 copy of WLM
> on each host?
> Each host a copy of each newsreader

Yes. 3 devices(you called them hosts) each with SM, TB and WLM installed,
Note: Don't assume all 3 devices are in the same location.
- i.e. can't look at all devices for From and signature configuration.

This device, all 3 news clients use ..w¡ñ§±¤ñ, and that's consistent with
my longer term use.
I could change it to my original MSN Explorer V2.6 msn.com email address
and common signature/email profile name when Microsoft Accounts(MSA) were
called Passport.net in case you need more to decipher.
W¡ñ§±¤ñ¬Ößóògîë

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It's not SeaMonkey having two nyms.
>>> Nor is it Thunderbird or Windows Live Mail having two nyms.
>>>
>>> But those 3 news clients are in use on multiple devices(3) :)
>>
>> #2: 1 copy of Seamonkey,
>> 1 copy of Tbird,
>> 1 copy of WLM
>> on each host?
>> Each host a copy of each newsreader
>
> Yes. 3 devices(you called them hosts) each with SM, TB and WLM
> installed, Note: Don't assume all 3 devices are in the same location;
> i.e. can't look at all devices for From and signature configuration.
>
> This device, all 3 news clients use ..w¡ñ§±¤ñ, and that's consistent
> with my longer term use.

One, or more, of the newsreaders on your other hosts that sometimes you
use for posting must be configured to use "...winston" (all ASCII-7, no
upper ASCII-8 characters).

The host you're using now has all 3 newsreaders (Seamonkey, Thunderbird,
and probably WLM) configured to use:

From: ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ <winstonmvp@gmail.com>

which requires MIME encoding of upper ASCII-8 characters to use ASCII-7
characters required for headers, so your header gets converted to:

From: =?UTF-8?B?Li4ud8Khw7HCp8KxwqTDsSA=?= <winstonmvp@gmail.com>

Must be when you are using one of your other 2 hosts that has 1, or
more, newsreaders configured that instead uses:

From: ...winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com>

which is all ASCII-7 characters, so no encoding is needed.

One, in some newsreaders, you use upper ASCII-8 characters in headers
that must be converted to ASCII-7, so your clients have to use MIME
encoding to comply with the ASCII-7 header requirement.
- RFC 2047 was ratified in 1996, so you must be using newsreaders
developed or updated after that. Not all newsreaders, especially
ancient ones, support MIME encoding in the headers.
- Consider that viewing the client-rendered version of a message is no
more valid than viewing the raw source of message. Those looking at
the raw message will not see your nym, but a garbled mess of encoded
characters.
- Using MIME encoding, especially when not needed except for foreign
languages with glyphs, accents, or diacritics, is often used by
spammers and trolls to avoid filtering. Most filters in client
operate on the raw message, not on the rendered version. Someone
trying to define a filter cannot use the rendered version of a MIME
encoded string. The filter won't see that string, because it really
isn't anywhere in the actual message. Look at the raw view of your
messages. Does your MIME encoded From header look readable? Nope.
No person reading =?UTF-8?B?Li4ud8Khw7HCp8KxwqTDsSA=?= will know
what the hell that is. Might look okay in your newsreaders, but
that doesn't mandate everyone else will see the decoded version.
- Wanting to be cutsy or unique are not excuses for using non-ASCII7
characters in the headers. Nothing of your name requires non-ASCII7
characters. You put yourself in the same barrel as pooh-the-cat who
keeps morphing his nym with look-alike non-ASCII7 characters trying
to avoid filters, except you don't morph your non-ASCII7 nym which
has you floating at the top of that barrel.

Two, you have multiple newsreaders, but they don't all specify the same
nym. Some specify ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ while some specify ...winston. That
resolves why you have two nyms (those strings are NOT the same) instead
of just one nym.

Using MIME encoded headers is not the fault of the newsreaders you use.

On 2023-11-08 10:34, VanguardLH wrote:
> winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:

> - Using MIME encoding, especially when not needed except for foreign
> languages with glyphs, accents, or diacritics, is often used by
> spammers and trolls to avoid filtering. Most filters in client
> operate on the raw message, not on the rendered version. Someone
> trying to define a filter cannot use the rendered version of a MIME
> encoded string. The filter won't see that string, because it really
> isn't anywhere in the actual message. Look at the raw view of your
> messages.

I have filters in Thunderbird looking for strings like "เพื่อ" or "🎲"
in the Subject, and they hit.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

"VanguardLH" <V@nguard.LH> wrote in message
news:mpmgg1i6s5l8.dlg@v.nguard.lh...
>
> Two, you have multiple newsreaders, but they don't all specify the same
> nym. Some specify ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ while some specify ...winston. That
> resolves why you have two nyms (those strings are NOT the same) instead
> of just one nym.
> Using MIME encoded headers is not the fault of the newsreaders you use.

I don't archive nntp messages longer than a few months.
The most recent message I see (in these Eternal Sept groups) with ...winston
was sent using SeaMonkey

-- --
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:

> "VanguardLH" <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>
>> Two, you have multiple newsreaders, but they don't all specify the same
>> nym. Some specify ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ while some specify ...winston. That
>> resolves why you have two nyms (those strings are NOT the same) instead
>> of just one nym.
>> Using MIME encoded headers is not the fault of the newsreaders you use.
>
> I don't archive nntp messages longer than a few months. The most
> recent message I see (in these Eternal Sept groups) with ...winston
> was sent using SeaMonkey

Retention in my NNTP client is 90 days. Posts older than 30 days are
dark gray colored. Posts older than 60 days are light gray colored.
That is, the older the post, the more faded it looks. Posts over 90
days are purged, but purging is not automatic, so it is when I purge.

For the posts that I still have in my client that show "...winston" (all
ASCII7) and in the newsgroups that I visit are (in reverse order):

alt.comp.os.windows-10
10/18/2023 <ugp4du$3p4s7$1@dont-email.me>
10/18/2023 <ugp4k5$3p5d2$1@dont-email.me>
10/28/2023 <ugo2l0$3he0n$1@dont-email.me>
10/17/2023 <uglgl1$2rs3q$1@dont-email.me>
10/16/2023 <ugjkgr$1gkqq$1@dont-email.me>
10/14/2023 <ugffpo$96vq$1@dont-email.me>
10/14/2023 <ugff5n$93d0$1@dont-email.me>
10/13/2023 <ugc067$3aosm$1@dont-email.me>
10/13/2023 <ugapca$31haj$1@dont-email.me>
10/12/2023 <ug9qeu$2nuvn$1@dont-email.me>
10/12/2023 <ug82jt$2biu6$1@dont-email.me>
10/11/2023 <ug6t44$20gci$1@dont-email.me>
10/10/2023 <ug44qr$19ga3$1@dont-email.me>
10/09/2023 <ug1iku$2pl6$1@dont-email.me>
10/09/2023 <ug1jus$32u5$1@dont-email.me>
10/08/2023 <ufv9bk$3bo1l$1@dont-email.me>
09/26/2023 <uevfnq$2m1j8$1@dont-email.me>
09/25/2023 <uesoil$230s0$1@dont-email.me>
09/23/2023 <uenhvq$ukl3$2@dont-email.me>
09/18/2023 <ue8nog$122o9$1@dont-email.me>

alt.comp.os.windows-11
10/27/2023 <uhfi6j$24btb$1@dont-email.me>
10/25/2023 <uhbc20$rbg2$1@dont-email.me>
10/19/2023 <ugr0ev$9ovj$1@dont-email.me>
10/18/2023 <ugp4du$3p4s7$1@dont-email.me>
10/13/2023 <ugc0lo$3atar$1@dont-email.me>
10/13/2023 <ugbqqk$39buq$1@dont-email.me>
10/13/2023 <uganst$3187f$1@dont-email.me>
09/09/2023 <udj05c$8idi$1@dont-email.me>
09/09/2023 <udiakl$5j19$1@dont-email.me>
09/09/2023 <udicci$5rhc$1@dont-email.me>
09/09/2023 <udi82j$57ik$1@dont-email.me>
09/06/2023 <uda31c$2hmrk$1@dont-email.me>
09/06/2023 <uda4dh$2htnt$1@dont-email.me>
09/06/2023 <udaqqd$2lf6e$1@dont-email.me>
09/05/2023 <ud7uk9$23jfs$1@dont-email.me>
09/05/2023 <ud7utp$23l1j$1@dont-email.me>
08/31/2023 <ucr8c2$3fleo$1@dont-email.me>

alt.comp.android
09/18/2023 <ue8nog$122o9$1@dont-email.me>

I didn't bother to eliminate duplicates across newsgroups due to
cross-posting. Granularity of sorting is by date, not by time of the
day (for same-day posts).

Seamonkey was used for each of the above MIDs.

If I instead search for "...w¡ñ§±¤ñ", all of those were also posted
using Seamonkey, except the Thunderbird example you provided, and one
using WLM (showing X-Newsreader instead of User-Agent).