Can a "written" signature be scribbled into a PDF with a pencil tool in
the Windows 10 Foxit Reader 9.3 or SumatraPDF 3.1.2 PDF readers?

I'm trying to sign with a pencil tool & then print this document for a
title transfer among family members who are in various locations.
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/form/application-for-replacement-or-transfer-of-title-reg-227/

I'm going to try to lift their signatures off a photocopy of the owners and
recipients' D/L, but if I can't cut and paste that image, can I PDF pencil
it by drawing with the PDF tool so that I can print it & be done with it?

On 5/8/2023 10:45 PM, victor wrote:
> Can a "written" signature be scribbled into a PDF with a pencil tool in
> the Windows 10 Foxit Reader 9.3 or SumatraPDF 3.1.2 PDF readers?
>
> I'm trying to sign with a pencil tool & then print this document for a
> title transfer among family members who are in various locations.
> https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/form/application-for-replacement-or-transfer-of-title-reg-227/
>
> I'm going to try to lift their signatures off a photocopy of the owners and
> recipients' D/L, but if I can't cut and paste that image, can I PDF pencil
> it by drawing with the PDF tool so that I can print it & be done with it?
>
>
>
In the Adobe Reader, (I don't known about other readers) use the signing
ability of the reader.

First sign YOUR name on a piece of white paper. Cut the signature from
the page and save it in a JPG file.

In the Adobe Reader in the side bar, scroll down until you see the "Fill
and sign" Icon and click on it. This will open a tool bar under the
normal Adobe header.

Click "Sign YOURSELF" and follow the instructions to place the
signature file you created into the PDF document.

NOTE: I do not no the legalities of this procedure and could I assume be
the basis of a forgery conviction if you add someone else signature.

To be safe, I then print the document to a PDF printer to insure it can
not be remomved from the document.

On 5/10/2103 5:00 PM, John K.Eason wrote:

> It can certainly be done in Foxit Reader, but I wouldn't want to try it for a
> signature without using a drawing tablet rather than a mouse and certainly not for
> an official document!

I know what you mean as I first put the two licenses in front of me and
then tried to mimic the signatures using the mouse and it was just a mess.

Without a pen, I wouldn't think of faithfully trying to mimic a signature.

> Also that's a pretty old version of Foxit. The current version is 12.1.2.

I don't usually update any program unless there's something in the update I
want, and that almost never happens, although, just now I looked for the
full offline installer for Foxit Reader and it doesn't seem easy to find.
https://www.foxit.com/downloads/

Luckily, a google search for "full offline foxit pdf reader" found it here.
https://techviral.net/downloaf-foxit-pdf-reader/

That showed the full offline network installer to be located here.
https://cdn01.foxitsoftware.com/product/reader/desktop/win/11.0.1/FoxitPDFReader1101_enu_Setup_Prom.exe

But that's only version 11.0.1, and not version 12.1.2 which you suggested.

>> I'm trying to sign with a pencil tool & then print this document
>> for a title transfer among family members who are in various locations.
>> https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/form/application-for-replacement-or-tr
>> ansfer-of-title-reg-227/
>
> I'd print it out to paper then sign it and scan it to an image format
> like Jpeg or similar if you want an electronic copy.

What I wanted to do I'm sure is an extremely common need for people who are
thousands of miles apart who need to jointly sign government PDF forms.

I solved it but it was a bouncy set of steps which it shouldn't have been.

I first easily lifted the signature off a photo of the two driver licenses,
which I slightly edited to black & white and then I removed the underlying
light watermarks and saved the result as a transparent-background GIF.

Then I filled out the official PDF form by typing in all necessary answers.
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/form/application-for-replacement-or-transfer-of-title-reg-227/

After that, I removed the restrictions from that official PDF using the
standard combination of ghostscript & ghostview & pstoedit I found in this
newsgroup's archive to easily remove permissions from any restricted PDF.

Since I couldn't figure out how to insert the signature transparent GIF
lifted off the driver licenses, I just saved that PDF as a JPEG (my editing
tool wouldn't save as a GIF) and then I converted it to a GIF and then I
inserted the transparent signatures, and then I was able to print it nice.

It's probably far too many steps but I was hacking about just trying to get
the job done so I took the first solution that worked well enough to print.

If you know of a ready-made solution to insert transparent GIF signatures
into a protected PDF, please let me know as it's got to be a common need.

If you don't hear from me, then it worked when I go to the DMV later today.

On Tue, 9 May 2023 08:13:33 -0600, victor wrote:

> That showed the full offline network installer to be located here.
> https://cdn01.foxitsoftware.com/product/reader/desktop/win/11.0.1/FoxitPDFReader1101_enu_Setup_Prom.exe
>
> But that's only version 11.0.1, and not version 12.1.2 which you suggested.

See if you can just munge the numbers to get the latest full installer.
https://cdn01.foxitsoftware.com/product/reader/desktop/win/12.1.2/FoxitPDFReader1212_enu_Setup_Prom.exe

To construct the URL, change the 11.0.1 to 12.1.2 & change 1101 to 1212.

I just tried that and it worked to download, but when I installed it, Foxit
12.1.2 warned me that the last known good version of Foxis was back in 10.0
https://i.postimg.cc/WzKyfQYh/Foxit10isthelastknowngoodversion.jpg

Name: FoxitPDFReader1212_enu_Setup_Prom.exe
Size: 168240640 bytes (160 MiB)
SHA256: C248BB1DE61F88988FDBE74D9129364C93918F4B5C98D4090C926C9DB27E4B86

Setup
"If you continue with this update, your older version of Foxit PDF Reader
will be uninstalled automatically. Please be aware that PDF creation is
not available in Foxit PDF Reader 10.0. PDF viewing, commenting, etc. are
still present. Please click "Yes" to continue or "No" to exit the update."

That's why you never want the web stubs!
You always want the full installer saved.

Anyone know where a last known good version of Foxit 10 full installer is?

On Mon, 8 May 2023 20:45:57 -0600, victor wrote:
> Can a "written" signature be scribbled into a PDF with a pencil tool in
> the Windows 10 Foxit Reader 9.3 or SumatraPDF 3.1.2 PDF readers?
>
> I'm trying to sign with a pencil tool & then print this document for a
> title transfer among family members who are in various locations.
> https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/form/application-for-replacement-or-transfer-of-title-reg-227/
>
> I'm going to try to lift their signatures off a photocopy of the owners and
> recipients' D/L, but if I can't cut and paste that image, can I PDF pencil
> it by drawing with the PDF tool so that I can print it & be done with it?

PDF can contain two types of image: raster (i.e. pixel based), and vector
(i.e. shape/object based). And there can be multiple layers and image type
combinations for each page.

If the signature is in a raster image, the pixels of the signature can be
scrubbed or replaced. But only by modifying the raster data. While it can be
done using vector, it would be simply be an overlay which is on top of the
raster image. The original image data is still there - just concealed by the
vector image.

If the signature is a vector image, then the opposite works the same way.
The signature can only be removed/replaced by modifying the vector image.
e.g. remove signature shape(s)/object(s). Raster image can also be inserted
as overlay on top of the signature shape/object, but it doesn't actually
remove the original signature. It would simply be concealed.

Raster and vector image can not be mixed since they have entirely different
data format.

So, even if an application claim that it can scrub what is shown on the PDF,
if it isn't done correctly, the original image would still be intact. If
it's not done correctly, with a correct tool, the original signature can
still be found and/or the new signature or the scribbing of the original
signature, can be undone.

On 5/9/2023 7:48 AM, knuttle wrote:

> NOTE: I do not no the legalities of this procedure and could I assume be
> the basis of a forgery conviction if you add someone else signature.
>
> To be safe, I then print the document to a PDF printer to insure it can
> not be remomved from the document.

It's all aboveboard but I was experimenting with electronic signatures to
see how they worked, so that was the basis of this technical question.

It turns out I have 10 days to "notify" the DMV of the transfer of
ownership, and 30 days to actually "complete" that transfer paperwork.

I didn't know that, but the 30 days gives me time to use the snail mail
to get the one signature that isn't close to me (I'm the other signature).

The DMV took the form yesterday, but they asked if the signatures were
electronic, and they didn't believe me when I said it was all "ink."

Then they took my money but said I would have to have "wet ink" signatures.

When I asked curiously how she knew that (she hadn't believed me for one
second, as hard as I tried to say otherwise), the lady behind the DMV
counter said there was no indentation for the pen marks and there was no
color change - so - what's weird is she accepted it for the payment and the
action - but not completely. It's an incomplete submission.

Who knew you could submit all the paperwork without a valid signature.
Not me.

That's great to know as every experiment teaches us more things about PCs.
When I asked her what good was it then, she said Sacramento would have
noticed the same thing as she did, and they would have bounced it back.

So all I have to do now is write the missing signature with blue ink
on the form, and submit that (even though I already submitted it).

Weird how the government works.
Weird that they "accepted" it as partially incomplete.
And weird that they took my money.

So I'm glad I did it as I learned a few new tricks (and that's good).
It's not a big deal as it's wholly aboveboard - but it is interesting.
But it's a good experiment as I never thought about the pen indentations.

Good to know that lots of PDF programs have electronic signatures though.