On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E.. wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
> > > > > > > > > > > It's printed right there on our money.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > what law would that be?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
> > > > > > > > > > https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:
> > > > > > > > > > https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
> > > > > > > > > This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
> > > > > > > > > half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.
> > > > > > > Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
> > > > > > > > Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had one
> > > > > > > > problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
> > > > > > > > I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
> > > > > > > Having the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
> > > > > > > > I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.
> > > > > > > Read further down on your same page & add.
> > > > > > > > Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.
> > > > > > > Which is sheltered within large chains.
> > > > > > > > Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?
> > > > > > > That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
> > > > > > > Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
> > > > > > > > I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carrying
> > > > > > > > cash or a checkbook everywhere.
> > > > > > > The checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
> > > > > > > perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
> > > > > > > few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
> > > > > > > higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
> > > > > > > > An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.
> > > > > > > As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -hh
> > > > > > I do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
> > > > > Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.
> > > > > > I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.
> > > > > Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
> > > > > > I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at Target
> > > > > > and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
> > > > > It’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
> > > > > > This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.
> > > > > > My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
> > > > > Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
> > > > > with your comment being:
> > > > >
> > > > > “How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
> > > > > the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
> > > > >
> > > > > The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
> > > > > break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
> > > > > that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
> > > > > > You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.
> > > > > Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
> > > > > > So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
> > > > > > be able to negotiate with. …
> > > > >
> > > > > Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
> > > > > found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
> > > > > < https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
> > > > >
> > > > > One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.
> > > Nope, it is this thread.
> > > > You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?
> > > False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
> > >
> > > FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
> > > "You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
> > > chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
> > > > Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a number
> > > > there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
> > > Wrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
> > > 'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
> > >
> > > <https://mmsc.org>
> > > > The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything even
> > > > close to that number,
> > > Because you've never bothered to have looked.
> > >
> > > > ... and there is no alternative offered!
> > >
> > > Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
> > > > Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspx
> > > > Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
> > > No need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
> > >
> > > -hh
> > Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
> It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
> Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
> < https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
> >
> > Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
> I already told you: continue to scroll down.
> > You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
> They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
> Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
> Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
>
> -hh
Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averaging over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming. Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companies including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.

On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
> > > > > > > > > > > > It's printed right there on our money.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > what law would that be?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
> > > > > > > > > > > https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:
> > > > > > > > > > > https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
> > > > > > > > > > This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
> > > > > > > > > > half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.
> > > > > > > > Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
> > > > > > > > > Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had one
> > > > > > > > > problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
> > > > > > > > > I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
> > > > > > > > Having the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
> > > > > > > > > I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.
> > > > > > > > Read further down on your same page & add.
> > > > > > > > > Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.
> > > > > > > > Which is sheltered within large chains.
> > > > > > > > > Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?
> > > > > > > > That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
> > > > > > > > Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
> > > > > > > > > I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carrying
> > > > > > > > > cash or a checkbook everywhere.
> > > > > > > > The checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
> > > > > > > > perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
> > > > > > > > few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
> > > > > > > > higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
> > > > > > > > > An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.
> > > > > > > > As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -hh
> > > > > > > I do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
> > > > > > Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.
> > > > > > > I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.
> > > > > > Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
> > > > > > > I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at Target
> > > > > > > and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
> > > > > > It’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
> > > > > > > This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.
> > > > > > > My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
> > > > > > Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
> > > > > > with your comment being:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
> > > > > > the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
> > > > > > break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
> > > > > > that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
> > > > > > > You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.
> > > > > > Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
> > > > > > > So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
> > > > > > > be able to negotiate with. …
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
> > > > > > found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
> > > > > > < https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.
> > > > Nope, it is this thread.
> > > > > You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?
> > > > False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
> > > >
> > > > FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
> > > > "You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
> > > > chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
> > > > > Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a number
> > > > > there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
> > > > Wrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
> > > > 'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
> > > >
> > > > <https://mmsc.org>
> > > > > The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything even
> > > > > close to that number,
> > > > Because you've never bothered to have looked.
> > > >
> > > > > ... and there is no alternative offered!
> > > >
> > > > Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
> > > > > Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspx
> > > > > Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
> > > > No need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
> >
> > It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
> > Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
> > < https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
> > >
> > > Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
> >
> > I already told you: continue to scroll down.
> >
> > > You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
> >
> > They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
> > Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
> > Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
> >
>
> Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averaging over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.

On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's printed right there on our money.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > what law would that be?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
> > > > > > > > > > > > This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
> > > > > > > > > > > > half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.
> > > > > > > > > > Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
> > > > > > > > > > > Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had one
> > > > > > > > > > > problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
> > > > > > > > > > > I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
> > > > > > > > > > Having the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
> > > > > > > > > > > I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.
> > > > > > > > > > Read further down on your same page & add.
> > > > > > > > > > > Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.
> > > > > > > > > > Which is sheltered within large chains.
> > > > > > > > > > > Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?
> > > > > > > > > > That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
> > > > > > > > > > Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
> > > > > > > > > > > I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carrying
> > > > > > > > > > > cash or a checkbook everywhere.
> > > > > > > > > > The checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
> > > > > > > > > > perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
> > > > > > > > > > few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
> > > > > > > > > > higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
> > > > > > > > > > > An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.
> > > > > > > > > > As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > -hh
> > > > > > > > > I do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
> > > > > > > > Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.
> > > > > > > > > I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.
> > > > > > > > Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
> > > > > > > > > I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at Target
> > > > > > > > > and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
> > > > > > > > It’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
> > > > > > > > > This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.
> > > > > > > > > My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
> > > > > > > > Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
> > > > > > > > with your comment being:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > “How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
> > > > > > > > the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
> > > > > > > > break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
> > > > > > > > that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
> > > > > > > > > You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.
> > > > > > > > Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
> > > > > > > > > So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
> > > > > > > > > be able to negotiate with. …
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
> > > > > > > > found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
> > > > > > > > < https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.
> > > > > > Nope, it is this thread.
> > > > > > > You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?
> > > > > > False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
> > > > > > "You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
> > > > > > chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
> > > > > > > Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a number
> > > > > > > there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
> > > > > > Wrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
> > > > > > 'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <https://mmsc.org>
> > > > > > > The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything even
> > > > > > > close to that number,
> > > > > > Because you've never bothered to have looked.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > ... and there is no alternative offered!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
> > > > > > > Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspx
> > > > > > > Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
> > > > > > No need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
> > > >
> > > > It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
> > > > Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
> > > > < https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
> > > > >
> > > > > Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
> > > >
> > > > I already told you: continue to scroll down.
> > > >
> > > > > You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
> > > >
> > > > They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
> > > > Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
> > > > Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averaging over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.
> > I've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
> >
> > Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
> > only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
> > > Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companies
> > > including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
> > Yet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
> >
> > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
> > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
> > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
> >
> > TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
> >
> > Interchange Fees
> > Payment Processor Fees
> > Assessment Fees
> > Rental Fees
> >
>
> In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
> vs. credit card pops up.

On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's printed right there on our money.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > what law would that be?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
> > > > > > > > > > > > > This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
> > > > > > > > > > > > > half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.
> > > > > > > > > > > Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had one
> > > > > > > > > > > > problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
> > > > > > > > > > > > I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
> > > > > > > > > > > Having the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.
> > > > > > > > > > > Read further down on your same page & add.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.
> > > > > > > > > > > Which is sheltered within large chains.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?
> > > > > > > > > > > That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
> > > > > > > > > > > Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carrying
> > > > > > > > > > > > cash or a checkbook everywhere.
> > > > > > > > > > > The checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
> > > > > > > > > > > perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
> > > > > > > > > > > few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
> > > > > > > > > > > higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
> > > > > > > > > > > > An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.
> > > > > > > > > > > As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > -hh
> > > > > > > > > > I do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
> > > > > > > > > Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.
> > > > > > > > > > I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.
> > > > > > > > > Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
> > > > > > > > > > I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at Target
> > > > > > > > > > and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
> > > > > > > > > It’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
> > > > > > > > > > This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.
> > > > > > > > > > My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
> > > > > > > > > Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
> > > > > > > > > with your comment being:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > “How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
> > > > > > > > > the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
> > > > > > > > > break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
> > > > > > > > > that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
> > > > > > > > > > You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.
> > > > > > > > > Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
> > > > > > > > > > So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
> > > > > > > > > > be able to negotiate with. …
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
> > > > > > > > > found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
> > > > > > > > > < https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.
> > > > > > > Nope, it is this thread.
> > > > > > > > You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?
> > > > > > > False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
> > > > > > > "You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
> > > > > > > chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
> > > > > > > > Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a number
> > > > > > > > there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
> > > > > > > Wrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
> > > > > > > 'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > <https://mmsc.org>
> > > > > > > > The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything even
> > > > > > > > close to that number,
> > > > > > > Because you've never bothered to have looked.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ... and there is no alternative offered!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
> > > > > > > > Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspx
> > > > > > > > Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
> > > > > > > No need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
> > > > > Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
> > > > > < https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
> > > > >
> > > > > I already told you: continue to scroll down.
> > > > >
> > > > > > You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
> > > > >
> > > > > They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
> > > > > Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
> > > > > Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averaging over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.
> > > I've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
> > >
> > > Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
> > > only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
> > > > Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companies
> > > > including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
> > > Yet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
> > >
> > > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
> > > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
> > > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
> > >
> > > TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
> > >
> > > Interchange Fees
> > > Payment Processor Fees
> > > Assessment Fees
> > > Rental Fees
> > >
> >
> > In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
> > vs. credit card pops up.
> Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
> Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
>
> And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
> of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
> well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
>
> Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
> past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
> > When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
> Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
> urgency, such as for disaster relief.
>
> -hh

On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's printed right there on our money.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what law would that be?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had one
> > > > > > > > > > > > > problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Having the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Read further down on your same page & add.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Which is sheltered within large chains.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?
> > > > > > > > > > > > That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carrying
> > > > > > > > > > > > > cash or a checkbook everywhere.
> > > > > > > > > > > > The checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
> > > > > > > > > > > > perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
> > > > > > > > > > > > few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
> > > > > > > > > > > > higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > -hh
> > > > > > > > > > > I do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
> > > > > > > > > > Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.
> > > > > > > > > > > I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.
> > > > > > > > > > Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
> > > > > > > > > > > I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at Target
> > > > > > > > > > > and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
> > > > > > > > > > It’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
> > > > > > > > > > > This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.
> > > > > > > > > > > My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
> > > > > > > > > > Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
> > > > > > > > > > with your comment being:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > “How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
> > > > > > > > > > the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
> > > > > > > > > > break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
> > > > > > > > > > that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
> > > > > > > > > > > You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.
> > > > > > > > > > Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
> > > > > > > > > > > So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
> > > > > > > > > > > be able to negotiate with. …
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
> > > > > > > > > > found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
> > > > > > > > > > < https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread..
> > > > > > > > Nope, it is this thread.
> > > > > > > > > You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?
> > > > > > > > False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
> > > > > > > > "You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
> > > > > > > > chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
> > > > > > > > > Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a number
> > > > > > > > > there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
> > > > > > > > Wrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
> > > > > > > > 'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > <https://mmsc.org>
> > > > > > > > > The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything even
> > > > > > > > > close to that number,
> > > > > > > > Because you've never bothered to have looked.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ... and there is no alternative offered!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
> > > > > > > > > Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia..com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspx
> > > > > > > > > Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
> > > > > > > > No need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
> > > > > > Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
> > > > > > < https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I already told you: continue to scroll down.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
> > > > > > Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
> > > > > > Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averaging over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.
> > > > I've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
> > > >
> > > > Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
> > > > only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
> > > > > Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companies
> > > > > including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
> > > > Yet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
> > > >
> > > > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
> > > > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
> > > > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
> > > >
> > > > TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
> > > >
> > > > Interchange Fees
> > > > Payment Processor Fees
> > > > Assessment Fees
> > > > Rental Fees
> > > >
> > >
> > > In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
> > > vs. credit card pops up.
> >
> > Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
> > Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
> >
> > And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
> > of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
> > well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
> >
> > Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
> > past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
> >
> > > When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
> >
> > Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
> > urgency, such as for disaster relief.
>
> $672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?

On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's printed right there on our money.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what law would that be?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had one
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Having the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Read further down on your same page & add.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Which is sheltered within large chains.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carrying
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > cash or a checkbook everywhere.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
> > > > > > > > > > > > > higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > -hh
> > > > > > > > > > > > I do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
> > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.
> > > > > > > > > > > Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
> > > > > > > > > > > > I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at Target
> > > > > > > > > > > > and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
> > > > > > > > > > > It’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
> > > > > > > > > > > > This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.
> > > > > > > > > > > > My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
> > > > > > > > > > > Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
> > > > > > > > > > > with your comment being:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > “How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
> > > > > > > > > > > the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
> > > > > > > > > > > break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
> > > > > > > > > > > that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
> > > > > > > > > > > > You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.
> > > > > > > > > > > Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
> > > > > > > > > > > > So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
> > > > > > > > > > > > be able to negotiate with. …
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
> > > > > > > > > > > found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
> > > > > > > > > > > < https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.
> > > > > > > > > Nope, it is this thread.
> > > > > > > > > > You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?
> > > > > > > > > False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
> > > > > > > > > "You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
> > > > > > > > > chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
> > > > > > > > > > Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a number
> > > > > > > > > > there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
> > > > > > > > > Wrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
> > > > > > > > > 'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > <https://mmsc.org>
> > > > > > > > > > The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything even
> > > > > > > > > > close to that number,
> > > > > > > > > Because you've never bothered to have looked.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ... and there is no alternative offered!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
> > > > > > > > > > Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspx
> > > > > > > > > > Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
> > > > > > > > > No need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
> > > > > > > Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
> > > > > > > < https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I already told you: continue to scroll down.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
> > > > > > > Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
> > > > > > > Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averaging over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.
> > > > > I've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
> > > > >
> > > > > Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
> > > > > only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
> > > > > > Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companies
> > > > > > including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
> > > > > Yet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
> > > > >
> > > > > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
> > > > > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
> > > > > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
> > > > >
> > > > > TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
> > > > >
> > > > > Interchange Fees
> > > > > Payment Processor Fees
> > > > > Assessment Fees
> > > > > Rental Fees
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
> > > > vs. credit card pops up.
> > >
> > > Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
> > > Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
> > >
> > > And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
> > > of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
> > > well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
> > >
> > > Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
> > > past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
> > >
> > > > When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
> > >
> > > Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
> > > urgency, such as for disaster relief.
> >
> > $672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?
> More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.
>
> > Tax dodging?
>
> Nope.
> > If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that
> > on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my
> > recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
> > but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
> > Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.
> And did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
> We learned that life lesson with a ~$5K loss (net) around fifteen years ago.
> > My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is really
> > quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
> > on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
> > to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
> > the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a
> > checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.
> Whereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.
> > I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMD
> > funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.
> Good for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.
> > Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMD
> > cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
> > process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.
> Corporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.
> > Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now even
> > small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes.. You are
> > probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0..66 stamp!
> Nah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.
> > I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.
> > I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
> > important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
> > all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.
> I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.
> > My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.
> > That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
> > and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
> > filled out and filed either!
> A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
> but there’s trades to consolidation.
> > As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I would
> > get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare.. The small
> > difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
> > fees into their pricing.
> As I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
> for the benefit is a good business relationship. That may include breaks on price
> or on other elements, such as getting a more favorable appointment, or staying
> open a few minutes after closing because you’re running late for a pickup, etc.
> Sometimes it’s as simple as the tire shop saying, “nah, you don’t need tires yet;
> see you next spring”.
>
> -hh

On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:44:52 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's printed right there on our money.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what law would that be?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had one
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read further down on your same page & add.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which is sheltered within large chains.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carrying
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cash or a checkbook everywhere.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > -hh
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at Target
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
> > > > > > > > > > > > It’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > with your comment being:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > “How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
> > > > > > > > > > > > the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
> > > > > > > > > > > > break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
> > > > > > > > > > > > that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
> > > > > > > > > > > > > be able to negotiate with. …
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
> > > > > > > > > > > > found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
> > > > > > > > > > > > < https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.
> > > > > > > > > > Nope, it is this thread.
> > > > > > > > > > > You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?
> > > > > > > > > > False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
> > > > > > > > > > "You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
> > > > > > > > > > chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
> > > > > > > > > > > Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a number
> > > > > > > > > > > there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
> > > > > > > > > > Wrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
> > > > > > > > > > 'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > <https://mmsc.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything even
> > > > > > > > > > > close to that number,
> > > > > > > > > > Because you've never bothered to have looked.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > ... and there is no alternative offered!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check..
> > > > > > > > > > > Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspx
> > > > > > > > > > > Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
> > > > > > > > > > No need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
> > > > > > > > Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
> > > > > > > > < https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I already told you: continue to scroll down.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
> > > > > > > > Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
> > > > > > > > Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averaging over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.
> > > > > > I've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
> > > > > > only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
> > > > > > > Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companies
> > > > > > > including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
> > > > > > Yet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
> > > > > > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
> > > > > > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Interchange Fees
> > > > > > Payment Processor Fees
> > > > > > Assessment Fees
> > > > > > Rental Fees
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
> > > > > vs. credit card pops up.
> > > >
> > > > Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
> > > > Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
> > > >
> > > > And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
> > > > of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
> > > > well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
> > > >
> > > > Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
> > > > past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
> > > >
> > > > > When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
> > > >
> > > > Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
> > > > urgency, such as for disaster relief.
> > >
> > > $672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?
> >
> > More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.
> >
> > > Tax dodging?
> >
> > Nope.
> >
> > > If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that
> > > on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my
> > > recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
> > > but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
> > > Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.
> >
> > And did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
> > We learned that life lesson with a ~$5K loss (net) around fifteen years ago.
> >
> > > My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is really
> > > quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
> > > on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
> > > to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
> > > the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a
> > > checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.
> >
> > Whereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.
> >
> > > I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMD
> > > funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.
> >
> > Good for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.
> >
> > > Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMD
> > > cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
> > > process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.
> >
> > Corporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.
> >
> > > Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now even
> > > small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are
> > > probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!
> >
> > Nah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.
> >
> > > I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.
> > > I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
> > > important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
> > > all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.
> >
> > I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.
> >
> > > My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.
> > > That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
> > > and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
> > > filled out and filed either!
> >
> > A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
> > but there’s trades to consolidation.
> >
> > > As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I would
> > > get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small
> > > difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
> > > fees into their pricing.
> >
> > As I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
> > for the benefit is a good business relationship. That may include breaks on price
> > or on other elements, such as getting a more favorable appointment, or staying
> > open a few minutes after closing because you’re running late for a pickup, etc.
> > Sometimes it’s as simple as the tire shop saying, “nah, you don’t need tires yet;
> > see you next spring”.
>
> LOL. My credit union has on 2 occasions made good on debit card fraud.
> I have been with them for almost 50 years.

On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:20:00 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:44:52 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's printed right there on our money..
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what law would that be?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had one
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read further down on your same page & add.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which is sheltered within large chains.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carrying
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cash or a checkbook everywhere.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -hh
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at Target
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > with your comment being:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > “How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > be able to negotiate with. …
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > < https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.
> > > > > > > > > > > Nope, it is this thread.
> > > > > > > > > > > > You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?
> > > > > > > > > > > False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
> > > > > > > > > > > "You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
> > > > > > > > > > > chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
> > > > > > > > > > > > Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a number
> > > > > > > > > > > > there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
> > > > > > > > > > > Wrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
> > > > > > > > > > > 'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > <https://mmsc.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything even
> > > > > > > > > > > > close to that number,
> > > > > > > > > > > Because you've never bothered to have looked.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > ... and there is no alternative offered!
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspx
> > > > > > > > > > > > Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
> > > > > > > > > > > No need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
> > > > > > > > > Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
> > > > > > > > > < https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I already told you: continue to scroll down.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
> > > > > > > > > Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
> > > > > > > > > Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averaging over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.
> > > > > > > I've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
> > > > > > > only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
> > > > > > > > Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companies
> > > > > > > > including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
> > > > > > > Yet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
> > > > > > > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
> > > > > > > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Interchange Fees
> > > > > > > Payment Processor Fees
> > > > > > > Assessment Fees
> > > > > > > Rental Fees
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
> > > > > > vs. credit card pops up.
> > > > >
> > > > > Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
> > > > > Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case..
> > > > >
> > > > > And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
> > > > > of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
> > > > > well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
> > > > > past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
> > > > >
> > > > > > When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
> > > > >
> > > > > Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
> > > > > urgency, such as for disaster relief.
> > > >
> > > > $672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?
> > >
> > > More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.
> > >
> > > > Tax dodging?
> > >
> > > Nope.
> > >
> > > > If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that
> > > > on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my
> > > > recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
> > > > but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
> > > > Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.
> > >
> > > And did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
> > > We learned that life lesson with a ~$5K loss (net) around fifteen years ago.
> > >
> > > > My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is really
> > > > quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
> > > > on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
> > > > to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
> > > > the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a
> > > > checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.
> > >
> > > Whereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.
> > >
> > > > I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMD
> > > > funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.
> > >
> > > Good for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.
> > >
> > > > Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMD
> > > > cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
> > > > process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.
> > >
> > > Corporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.
> > >
> > > > Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now even
> > > > small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are
> > > > probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!
> > >
> > > Nah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.
> > >
> > > > I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.
> > > > I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
> > > > important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
> > > > all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.
> > >
> > > I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.
> > >
> > > > My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.
> > > > That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
> > > > and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
> > > > filled out and filed either!
> > >
> > > A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
> > > but there’s trades to consolidation.
> > >
> > > > As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I would
> > > > get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small
> > > > difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
> > > > fees into their pricing.
> > >
> > > As I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
> > > for the benefit is a good business relationship. That may include breaks on price
> > > or on other elements, such as getting a more favorable appointment, or staying
> > > open a few minutes after closing because you’re running late for a pickup, etc.
> > > Sometimes it’s as simple as the tire shop saying, “nah, you don’t need tires yet;
> > > see you next spring”.
> >
> > LOL. My credit union has on 2 occasions made good on debit card fraud.
> > I have been with them for almost 50 years.
> The loss I was referring to wasn’t due to fraud, but a supplier bankruptcy;
> we ended up getting ~$20K back from the protections we had in place.
> > As for matching gifts that has nothing to do with making the actual gift.
> Correct; I was just alluding to how it’s YA paperwork process, and each is different.
>
> > If you are 52 then …
>
> ...then I would have said that I’m *two* decades removed from RMDs.
>
> > … you obviously have a very different set of concerns!
>
> Such as getting my own age correct? /s
> > My advice is save every penny you can and invest it wisely.
> > There is nothing better than not having to worry about debts and
> > expenses 20 years from now.
> Already running the models out to 2065.
>
> -hh

On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 5:01:43 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:20:00 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:44:52 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's printed right there on our money.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what law would that be?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no obligation to accept cash.. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had one
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read further down on your same page & add.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which is sheltered within large chains.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carrying
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cash or a checkbook everywhere.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -hh
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at Target
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > with your comment being:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > “How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be able to negotiate with. …
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > < https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Nope, it is this thread.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?
> > > > > > > > > > > > False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
> > > > > > > > > > > > "You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
> > > > > > > > > > > > chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a number
> > > > > > > > > > > > > there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Wrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
> > > > > > > > > > > > 'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > <https://mmsc.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything even
> > > > > > > > > > > > > close to that number,
> > > > > > > > > > > > Because you've never bothered to have looked.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ... and there is no alternative offered!
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspx
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
> > > > > > > > > > > > No need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
> > > > > > > > > > Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
> > > > > > > > > > < https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I already told you: continue to scroll down.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
> > > > > > > > > > Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
> > > > > > > > > > Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averaging
> > > > > > > > > over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.
> > > > > > > > I've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
> > > > > > > > only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
> > > > > > > > > Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companies
> > > > > > > > > including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
> > > > > > > > Yet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
> > > > > > > > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
> > > > > > > > <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Interchange Fees
> > > > > > > > Payment Processor Fees
> > > > > > > > Assessment Fees
> > > > > > > > Rental Fees
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
> > > > > > > vs. credit card pops up.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
> > > > > > Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
> > > > > > of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
> > > > > > well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
> > > > > > past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
> > > > > > urgency, such as for disaster relief.
> > > > >
> > > > > $672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?
> > > >
> > > > More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.
> > > >
> > > > > Tax dodging?
> > > >
> > > > Nope.
> > > >
> > > > > If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that
> > > > > on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672.. So for my
> > > > > recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
> > > > > but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
> > > > > Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.
> > > >
> > > > And did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
> > > > We learned that life lesson with a ~$5K loss (net) around fifteen years ago.
> > > >
> > > > > My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is really
> > > > > quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
> > > > > on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
> > > > > to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
> > > > > the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a
> > > > > checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.
> > > >
> > > > Whereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.
> > > >
> > > > > I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMD
> > > > > funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.
> > > >
> > > > Good for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.
> > > >
> > > > > Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMD
> > > > > cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
> > > > > process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.
> > > >
> > > > Corporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.
> > > >
> > > > > Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now even
> > > > > small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are
> > > > > probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!
> > > >
> > > > Nah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.
> > > >
> > > > > I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.
> > > > > I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
> > > > > important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
> > > > > all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.
> > > >
> > > > I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.
> > > >
> > > > > My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.
> > > > > That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
> > > > > and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
> > > > > filled out and filed either!
> > > >
> > > > A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
> > > > but there’s trades to consolidation.
> > > >
> > > > > As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I would
> > > > > get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small
> > > > > difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
> > > > > fees into their pricing.
> > > >
> > > > As I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
> > > > for the benefit is a good business relationship. That may include breaks on price
> > > > or on other elements, such as getting a more favorable appointment, or staying
> > > > open a few minutes after closing because you’re running late for a pickup, etc.
> > > > Sometimes it’s as simple as the tire shop saying, “nah, you don’t need tires yet;
> > > > see you next spring”.
> > >
> > > LOL. My credit union has on 2 occasions made good on debit card fraud..
> > > I have been with them for almost 50 years.
> >
> > The loss I was referring to wasn’t due to fraud, but a supplier bankruptcy;
> > we ended up getting ~$20K back from the protections we had in place.
> >
> > > As for matching gifts that has nothing to do with making the actual gift.
> >
> > Correct; I was just alluding to how it’s YA paperwork process, and each is different.
> >
> > > If you are 52 then …
> >
> > ...then I would have said that I’m *two* decades removed from RMDs.
> >
> > > … you obviously have a very different set of concerns!
> >
> > Such as getting my own age correct? /s
> >
> > > My advice is save every penny you can and invest it wisely.
> > > There is nothing better than not having to worry about debts and
> > > expenses 20 years from now.
> >
> > Already running the models out to 2065.
> >
>
> Right, you are 62.