not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) writes:

> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2024-04-10 16:30, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>> I was wondering if anyone would reccomend a good email client. I'm
>>> mostly just looking for one that has notification support, but the ones
>>> I have looked at have had problems.
>>
>> Thunderbird is probably the most complete one, followed by Evolution and
>> Kmail.
>
> Yikes, I found both Thunderbird and Evolution excruciatingly
> bloated and over-complicated, so I'd better stay well away from
> "Kmail". Those do both attempt accurate HTML rendering though,
> unlike clients I prefer such as Sylpheed and Alpine that roughly
> (but often very servicably) render HTML as plain text. That
> contributes a fair bit to their complexity, but hardly excuses how
> unfriendly they can be to configure, or to fix when they break.

I've used so many e-mail clients over the years I'm sure I don't
remember all of them.

I had started using Eudora at work because I wanted to start using IMAP
and it supported that. Then I switched to Mulberry. I really liked that
because it was truly cross-platform and it did IMAP better than Eudora
did.

Then when Thunderbird first came out it seemed like a reasonable
choice. It was also cross-platform and worked pretty well. I got used to
it and have been using it ever since.

I also used mutt for a long time, but finally just used Thunderbird
everywhere.

I've tried both Sylpheed and Claws and thought they were pretty good,
but I'm familiar with Thunderbird and probably won't move from it
without a really good reason.

I do most of my important communication in Signal these days
anyway. E-mail is kind of a legacy thing in some ways. I suppose Usenet
is too, but I find that I enjoy Usenet more than e-mail. :-)

I guess if Thunderbird went away, I'd take another look at Sylpheed and
Claws.

On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 14:40:12 -0000 (UTC)
candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid>
wrote:

> Yrrah <Yrrah-aolu@aolu.invalid> wrote at 13:12 this Thursday (GMT):
> > candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid>:
> >
> >> > I'm happy with Sylpheed (https://sylpheed.sraoss.jp/en/)
> >
> >> This is perfect! Thanks!
> >
> > I'm happy with Claws Mail, which was originally a Sylpheed fork.
> >
> > https://www.claws-mail.org/features.php
> >
> >
> > Yrrah
>
>
> Had trouble getting it to connect to gmail when I tried. Of course,
> I'm having some server issues with sylpheed, but most of my accs
> work..

I managed to get gmail to work with an app password (which google seems
to have intentionally hidden). Not very secure though.

On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 12:07:05 -0000 (UTC)
John McCue <jmccue@neutron.jmcunx.com> wrote:

> LucLan <address@is.invalid> wrote:
> > candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >> I was wondering if anyone would reccomend a good email client. I'm
> >> mostly just looking for one that has notification support, but the ones
> >> I have looked at have had problems.
> >
> > I use mutt. Simple and it does the job.
>
> The OP also wants a notification also :)
>
> I also use mutt, for notifications you can try wmbiff or
> gkrellm. But this depends on your X environment. I use
> Window Managers as opposed to Desktop Environments, so
> wmbiff/gkrellm works fine. I do not know how wmbiff will
> work with KDE/GNOME and friends. Gkrellm works fine on
> any D/E.

I use WMbiff, and I don't think it would work well with Desktop
Environment and Window Managers that don't support dockapps. It works
great, but I'm sure there already exist some project or program which
can run in the background and emit a notification. I can't think of
one because I never looked beyond wmbiff but I suspect one exists it
wouldn't be too hard to make a basic one.

On 11 Apr 2024 07:55:03 +1000
not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) wrote:

> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> > On 2024-04-10 16:30, candycanearter07 wrote:
> >> I was wondering if anyone would reccomend a good email client. I'm
> >> mostly just looking for one that has notification support, but the ones
> >> I have looked at have had problems.
> >
> > Thunderbird is probably the most complete one, followed by Evolution and
> > Kmail.
>
> Yikes, I found both Thunderbird and Evolution excruciatingly
> bloated and over-complicated, so I'd better stay well away from
> "Kmail". Those do both attempt accurate HTML rendering though,
> unlike clients I prefer such as Sylpheed and Alpine that roughly
> (but often very servicably) render HTML as plain text. That
> contributes a fair bit to their complexity, but hardly excuses how
> unfriendly they can be to configure, or to fix when they break.

I used Thunderbird for a long time, and it was fine. I moved to Claws
Mail when Thunderbird stuffed up their PGP support. I used to use
Enigmail, but Thunderbird incorporated it into their product, and did
it in a way where it would not use your keyring, you had to import
your keys into Thunderbird. That was the end of that for me.

On 2024-04-13 02:38, Borax Man wrote:
> On 11 Apr 2024 07:55:03 +1000
> not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) wrote:
>
>> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-10 16:30, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>>> I was wondering if anyone would reccomend a good email client. I'm
>>>> mostly just looking for one that has notification support, but the ones
>>>> I have looked at have had problems.
>>>
>>> Thunderbird is probably the most complete one, followed by Evolution and
>>> Kmail.
>>
>> Yikes, I found both Thunderbird and Evolution excruciatingly
>> bloated and over-complicated, so I'd better stay well away from
>> "Kmail". Those do both attempt accurate HTML rendering though,
>> unlike clients I prefer such as Sylpheed and Alpine that roughly
>> (but often very servicably) render HTML as plain text. That
>> contributes a fair bit to their complexity, but hardly excuses how
>> unfriendly they can be to configure, or to fix when they break.
>
> I used Thunderbird for a long time, and it was fine. I moved to Claws
> Mail when Thunderbird stuffed up their PGP support. I used to use
> Enigmail, but Thunderbird incorporated it into their product, and did
> it in a way where it would not use your keyring, you had to import
> your keys into Thunderbird. That was the end of that for me.

They did not incorporate Enigmail, that would have been wonderful.
Instead they did their own limited implementation.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2024-04-12 15:10, Kyonshi wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 14:40:12 -0000 (UTC)
> candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid>
> wrote:
>
>> Yrrah <Yrrah-aolu@aolu.invalid> wrote at 13:12 this Thursday (GMT):
>>> candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid>:
>>>
>>>>> I'm happy with Sylpheed (https://sylpheed.sraoss.jp/en/)
>>>
>>>> This is perfect! Thanks!
>>>
>>> I'm happy with Claws Mail, which was originally a Sylpheed fork.
>>>
>>> https://www.claws-mail.org/features.php
>>>
>>>
>>> Yrrah
>>
>>
>> Had trouble getting it to connect to gmail when I tried. Of course,
>> I'm having some server issues with sylpheed, but most of my accs
>> work..
>
> I managed to get gmail to work with an app password (which google seems
> to have intentionally hidden). Not very secure though.

It is not hidden at all. Many of us are using them.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 22:30:02 +0200
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> On 2024-04-13 02:38, Borax Man wrote:
> > On 11 Apr 2024 07:55:03 +1000
> > not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) wrote:
> >
> >> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
> [...]
> [...]
> >>
> >> Yikes, I found both Thunderbird and Evolution excruciatingly
> >> bloated and over-complicated, so I'd better stay well away from
> >> "Kmail". Those do both attempt accurate HTML rendering though,
> >> unlike clients I prefer such as Sylpheed and Alpine that roughly
> >> (but often very servicably) render HTML as plain text. That
> >> contributes a fair bit to their complexity, but hardly excuses how
> >> unfriendly they can be to configure, or to fix when they break.
> >
> > I used Thunderbird for a long time, and it was fine. I moved to Claws
> > Mail when Thunderbird stuffed up their PGP support. I used to use
> > Enigmail, but Thunderbird incorporated it into their product, and did
> > it in a way where it would not use your keyring, you had to import
> > your keys into Thunderbird. That was the end of that for me.
>
> They did not incorporate Enigmail, that would have been wonderful.
> Instead they did their own limited implementation.
>

Thats right, I think enigmail stopped being supported. Had enigmail
continued to work, I would still be using Thunderbird today.

On 4/13/24 18:58, Borax Man wrote:
> Thats right, I think enigmail stopped being supported. Had enigmail
> continued to work, I would still be using Thunderbird today.

Check contemporary Thunderbird.

I believe Enigmail support was discontinued because it was promoted to
being natively included in Thunderbird. Or at least contemporary
Thunderbird has had Enigmail like functionality for a few years now.

--
Grant. . . .

On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 20:19:20 -0500
Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:

> On 4/13/24 18:58, Borax Man wrote:
> > Thats right, I think enigmail stopped being supported. Had enigmail
> > continued to work, I would still be using Thunderbird today.
>
> Check contemporary Thunderbird.
>
> I believe Enigmail support was discontinued because it was promoted to
> being natively included in Thunderbird. Or at least contemporary
> Thunderbird has had Enigmail like functionality for a few years now.
>

I looked up what happened, Thunderbird did indeed implement its own
functionality, and this was to replace Enigmail.

I'm quite happy with Claws Mail and Mutt, and having briefly seen
Thunderbird as it is now, I think I'll stay as I prefer the simpler
Claws Mail interface. Also, I learned that I should stick to software
which is less opinionated, which doesn't have big visions, grand
strategies and the like. This way its less likely to just change
things on me, or decide for me how I should interact. I don't want to
build my digital world on ever shifting sands so I prefer to stick to
smaller, simpler software where there is less of a focus on
innovation.

On 2024-04-14 03:19, Grant Taylor wrote:
> On 4/13/24 18:58, Borax Man wrote:
>> Thats right, I think enigmail stopped being supported.  Had enigmail
>> continued to work, I would still be using Thunderbird today.
>
> Check contemporary Thunderbird.
>
> I believe Enigmail support was discontinued because it was promoted to
> being natively included in Thunderbird.

No.

I repeat, TB created their own method, from scratch. Different. They did
not incorporate Enigmail at all.

> Or at least contemporary
> Thunderbird has had Enigmail like functionality for a few years now.

Not Enigmail like at all.

And about the same time, Mozilla fired many many people, so features
were removed.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2024-04-14 03:32, Borax Man wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 20:19:20 -0500
> Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:
>
>> On 4/13/24 18:58, Borax Man wrote:
>>> Thats right, I think enigmail stopped being supported. Had enigmail
>>> continued to work, I would still be using Thunderbird today.
>>
>> Check contemporary Thunderbird.
>>
>> I believe Enigmail support was discontinued because it was promoted to
>> being natively included in Thunderbird. Or at least contemporary
>> Thunderbird has had Enigmail like functionality for a few years now.
>>
>
>
> I looked up what happened, Thunderbird did indeed implement its own
> functionality, and this was to replace Enigmail.
>
> I'm quite happy with Claws Mail and Mutt, and having briefly seen
> Thunderbird as it is now, I think I'll stay as I prefer the simpler
> Claws Mail interface. Also, I learned that I should stick to software
> which is less opinionated, which doesn't have big visions, grand
> strategies and the like. This way its less likely to just change
> things on me, or decide for me how I should interact. I don't want to
> build my digital world on ever shifting sands so I prefer to stick to
> smaller, simpler software where there is less of a focus on
> innovation.

IMO, every open source project is subject to big changes when the
developers "are replaced" or simply tire out and take new people. The
new people prefer to do new things in their own way instead of learning
the ropes and maintain old things.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2024-04-15, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2024-04-14 03:32, Borax Man wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 20:19:20 -0500
>> Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/13/24 18:58, Borax Man wrote:
>>>> Thats right, I think enigmail stopped being supported. Had enigmail
>>>> continued to work, I would still be using Thunderbird today.
>>>
>>> Check contemporary Thunderbird.
>>>
>>> I believe Enigmail support was discontinued because it was promoted to
>>> being natively included in Thunderbird. Or at least contemporary
>>> Thunderbird has had Enigmail like functionality for a few years now.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I looked up what happened, Thunderbird did indeed implement its own
>> functionality, and this was to replace Enigmail.
>>
>> I'm quite happy with Claws Mail and Mutt, and having briefly seen
>> Thunderbird as it is now, I think I'll stay as I prefer the simpler
>> Claws Mail interface. Also, I learned that I should stick to software
>> which is less opinionated, which doesn't have big visions, grand
>> strategies and the like. This way its less likely to just change
>> things on me, or decide for me how I should interact. I don't want to
>> build my digital world on ever shifting sands so I prefer to stick to
>> smaller, simpler software where there is less of a focus on
>> innovation.
>
> IMO, every open source project is subject to big changes when the
> developers "are replaced" or simply tire out and take new people. The
> new people prefer to do new things in their own way instead of learning
> the ropes and maintain old things.
>

True, but for some key software I've been able to keep some
consistency. ZSH, FVWM, PCManFM, Window Maker dockapps, mutt, Emacs,
Vim, slrn, the GNU utilities, they haven't changed.

On 2024-04-15 14:10, Borax Man wrote:
> On 2024-04-15, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2024-04-14 03:32, Borax Man wrote:
>>> On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 20:19:20 -0500
>>> Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/13/24 18:58, Borax Man wrote:
>>>>> Thats right, I think enigmail stopped being supported. Had enigmail
>>>>> continued to work, I would still be using Thunderbird today.
>>>>
>>>> Check contemporary Thunderbird.
>>>>
>>>> I believe Enigmail support was discontinued because it was promoted to
>>>> being natively included in Thunderbird. Or at least contemporary
>>>> Thunderbird has had Enigmail like functionality for a few years now.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I looked up what happened, Thunderbird did indeed implement its own
>>> functionality, and this was to replace Enigmail.
>>>
>>> I'm quite happy with Claws Mail and Mutt, and having briefly seen
>>> Thunderbird as it is now, I think I'll stay as I prefer the simpler
>>> Claws Mail interface. Also, I learned that I should stick to software
>>> which is less opinionated, which doesn't have big visions, grand
>>> strategies and the like. This way its less likely to just change
>>> things on me, or decide for me how I should interact. I don't want to
>>> build my digital world on ever shifting sands so I prefer to stick to
>>> smaller, simpler software where there is less of a focus on
>>> innovation.
>>
>> IMO, every open source project is subject to big changes when the
>> developers "are replaced" or simply tire out and take new people. The
>> new people prefer to do new things in their own way instead of learning
>> the ropes and maintain old things.
>>
>
> True, but for some key software I've been able to keep some
> consistency. ZSH, FVWM, PCManFM, Window Maker dockapps, mutt, Emacs,
> Vim, slrn, the GNU utilities, they haven't changed.

Have Gnome and KDE kept consistency? :-D

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Kyonshi <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote at 13:10 this Friday (GMT):
> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 14:40:12 -0000 (UTC)
> candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid>
> wrote:
>
>> Yrrah <Yrrah-aolu@aolu.invalid> wrote at 13:12 this Thursday (GMT):
>> > candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid>:
>> >
>> >> > I'm happy with Sylpheed (https://sylpheed.sraoss.jp/en/)
>> >
>> >> This is perfect! Thanks!
>> >
>> > I'm happy with Claws Mail, which was originally a Sylpheed fork.
>> >
>> > https://www.claws-mail.org/features.php
>> >
>> >
>> > Yrrah
>>
>>
>> Had trouble getting it to connect to gmail when I tried. Of course,
>> I'm having some server issues with sylpheed, but most of my accs
>> work..
>
> I managed to get gmail to work with an app password (which google seems
> to have intentionally hidden). Not very secure though.

Yeah, but that's only if you use 2FA.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 22:25:44 -0400, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> On 2024-04-14 03:19, Grant Taylor wrote:
>> On 4/13/24 18:58, Borax Man wrote:
>>> Thats right, I think enigmail stopped being supported. Had enigmail
>>> continued to work, I would still be using Thunderbird today.
>>
>> Check contemporary Thunderbird.
>>
>> I believe Enigmail support was discontinued because it was promoted to
>> being natively included in Thunderbird.
>
> No.
>
> I repeat, TB created their own method, from scratch. Different. They did
> not incorporate Enigmail at all.

TB did not create their own method. It uses openpgp. The encryption aspect is
the same as pgp. The keys are handled by a subset of what pgp uses.

A pgp generated key can be used in openpgp.

The difference is that openpgp does not use the chain of trust that pgp uses.

The other thing I don't like about it is that thunderbird asks for the pass phrase
when it starts. It does not require the pass phrase to be re-entered to sign
or dycrypt messages, meaning that an unattended system can be used by anyone with
access to send signed email messages or read stored messages.

>> Or at least contemporary
>> Thunderbird has had Enigmail like functionality for a few years now.
>
> Not Enigmail like at all.
>
>
> And about the same time, Mozilla fired many many people, so features
> were removed.

That's not why they made the switch. The switch was made to simplify usage
for users who did not know how to generate a key or how to manage the chain
of trust for keys that pgp uses.

The goal was to increase the use of encryption in email at the cost of reduced
security in key management.

Regards, Dave Hodgins