[Stripped alt.comp.microsoft.windows. Too many groups.]

In alt.comp.os.windows-8 Sailfish <NIXCAPSsailfish@nixcapsunforgettable.com> wrote:
> Chris graced us with on 6/18/2021 5:57 AM:
> > On 17/06/2021 19:04, Sailfish wrote:
> >> Eric Stevens graced us with on 6/16/2021 5:04 PM:
> >>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 18:30:00 +0000, ? Good Guy ?
> >>> <Hello.World@example.onion> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>> Is that all? Who thinks that's worth waiting for?
> >>
> >> So far, it appears to be mostly the GUI, with the underlying
> >> apps/programs/control panel applets/ &c still being an unglodly mix of
> >> Win10+Win8+Win7, ..., XP
> >
> > Did you expect anything else?
> >
> > Windows hasn't fundamentally changed since Windows 7. It's all just a
> > skinning exercise so that the vendors can sell more hardware which
> > supports the 'new' windows.
>
> Actually, yes, and it still might happen since this is an early look-see
> at just the current GUI update direction and not the foundational
> changes. What I suspect is that they will make significant
> infrastructure changes that will put everything behind a pay wall, just
> like Apple, disallowing sideloading of non- Windows Store software.

I don't think the latter is tecnically possible, unless they
completely re-design the OS. After all, "sideloading of non-Windows
Store software" involves just a bunch of files (.exe, .dll, etc.) and
some installation procedure/script/tool/<whatever>, if any.

What are they going to do? Prevent people to download files and put
them in the appropriate folders (Program Files, ProgramData, etc.)? I
don't think so.

Frank Slootweg graced us with on 6/18/2021 11:15 AM:
> [Stripped alt.comp.microsoft.windows. Too many groups.]
>
> In alt.comp.os.windows-8 Sailfish <NIXCAPSsailfish@nixcapsunforgettable.com> wrote:
>> Chris graced us with on 6/18/2021 5:57 AM:
>>> On 17/06/2021 19:04, Sailfish wrote:
>>>> Eric Stevens graced us with on 6/16/2021 5:04 PM:
>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 18:30:00 +0000, ? Good Guy ?
>>>>> <Hello.World@example.onion> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that all? Who thinks that's worth waiting for?
>>>> So far, it appears to be mostly the GUI, with the underlying
>>>> apps/programs/control panel applets/ &c still being an unglodly mix of
>>>> Win10+Win8+Win7, ..., XP
>>> Did you expect anything else?
>>>
>>> Windows hasn't fundamentally changed since Windows 7. It's all just a
>>> skinning exercise so that the vendors can sell more hardware which
>>> supports the 'new' windows.
>> Actually, yes, and it still might happen since this is an early look-see
>> at just the current GUI update direction and not the foundational
>> changes. What I suspect is that they will make significant
>> infrastructure changes that will put everything behind a pay wall, just
>> like Apple, disallowing sideloading of non- Windows Store software.
>
> I don't think the latter is tecnically possible, unless they
> completely re-design the OS. After all, "sideloading of non-Windows
> Store software" involves just a bunch of files (.exe, .dll, etc.) and
> some installation procedure/script/tool/<whatever>, if any.
>
> What are they going to do? Prevent people to download files and put
> them in the appropriate folders (Program Files, ProgramData, etc.)? I
> don't think so.

Well, since those and other filetypes are Microsoft-imagined, they could
simply re-imagine another set of executable filetype and "legacy" the
pre-Win11 ones, no? Windows executable aren't standalone and their
mime-type is first confirmed by the OS, yes?

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

In article <saiut4.ff0.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank Slootweg
<this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> > Actually, yes, and it still might happen since this is an early look-see
> > at just the current GUI update direction and not the foundational
> > changes. What I suspect is that they will make significant
> > infrastructure changes that will put everything behind a pay wall, just
> > like Apple, disallowing sideloading of non- Windows Store software.
>
> I don't think the latter is tecnically possible, unless they
> completely re-design the OS. After all, "sideloading of non-Windows
> Store software" involves just a bunch of files (.exe, .dll, etc.) and
> some installation procedure/script/tool/<whatever>, if any.
>
> What are they going to do? Prevent people to download files and put
> them in the appropriate folders (Program Files, ProgramData, etc.)? I
> don't think so.

one way is by blocking apps that don't have the appropriate
microsoft-approved code signature from being launched.

however, it's very unlikely to happen because of the sheer volume of
legacy software that would instantly stop working along with the not
particularly wide choice on the microsoft store.

Sailfish <NIXCAPSsailfish@nixcapsunforgettable.com> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg graced us with on 6/18/2021 11:15 AM:
> > [Stripped alt.comp.microsoft.windows. Too many groups.]
> >
> > In alt.comp.os.windows-8 Sailfish <NIXCAPSsailfish@nixcapsunforgettable.com> wrote:
> >> Chris graced us with on 6/18/2021 5:57 AM:
> >>> On 17/06/2021 19:04, Sailfish wrote:
> >>>> Eric Stevens graced us with on 6/16/2021 5:04 PM:
> >>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 18:30:00 +0000, ? Good Guy ?
> >>>>> <Hello.World@example.onion> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Is that all? Who thinks that's worth waiting for?
> >>>> So far, it appears to be mostly the GUI, with the underlying
> >>>> apps/programs/control panel applets/ &c still being an unglodly mix of
> >>>> Win10+Win8+Win7, ..., XP
> >>> Did you expect anything else?
> >>>
> >>> Windows hasn't fundamentally changed since Windows 7. It's all just a
> >>> skinning exercise so that the vendors can sell more hardware which
> >>> supports the 'new' windows.
> >> Actually, yes, and it still might happen since this is an early look-see
> >> at just the current GUI update direction and not the foundational
> >> changes. What I suspect is that they will make significant
> >> infrastructure changes that will put everything behind a pay wall, just
> >> like Apple, disallowing sideloading of non- Windows Store software.
> >
> > I don't think the latter is tecnically possible, unless they
> > completely re-design the OS. After all, "sideloading of non-Windows
> > Store software" involves just a bunch of files (.exe, .dll, etc.) and
> > some installation procedure/script/tool/<whatever>, if any.
> >
> > What are they going to do? Prevent people to download files and put
> > them in the appropriate folders (Program Files, ProgramData, etc.)? I
> > don't think so.
>
> Well, since those and other filetypes are Microsoft-imagined, they could
> simply re-imagine another set of executable filetype and "legacy" the
> pre-Win11 ones, no? Windows executable aren't standalone and their
> mime-type is first confirmed by the OS, yes?

They could only pull that off, if they completely seperate private/
personal/consumer/<whatever> users from business (etc.) users, as
there's no way they could afford to lose the income from the latter
part. (Not that they can afford to lose (most of) the former.)

Meantime, this article is brought to you, courtesy of 18+ year old
software, still running fine.

Frank Slootweg graced us with on 6/18/2021 12:48 PM:
> Sailfish <NIXCAPSsailfish@nixcapsunforgettable.com> wrote:
>> Frank Slootweg graced us with on 6/18/2021 11:15 AM:
>>> [Stripped alt.comp.microsoft.windows. Too many groups.]
>>>
>>> In alt.comp.os.windows-8 Sailfish <NIXCAPSsailfish@nixcapsunforgettable.com> wrote:
>>>> Chris graced us with on 6/18/2021 5:57 AM:
>>>>> On 17/06/2021 19:04, Sailfish wrote:
>>>>>> Eric Stevens graced us with on 6/16/2021 5:04 PM:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 18:30:00 +0000, ? Good Guy ?
>>>>>>> <Hello.World@example.onion> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is that all? Who thinks that's worth waiting for?
>>>>>> So far, it appears to be mostly the GUI, with the underlying
>>>>>> apps/programs/control panel applets/ &c still being an unglodly mix of
>>>>>> Win10+Win8+Win7, ..., XP
>>>>> Did you expect anything else?
>>>>>
>>>>> Windows hasn't fundamentally changed since Windows 7. It's all just a
>>>>> skinning exercise so that the vendors can sell more hardware which
>>>>> supports the 'new' windows.
>>>> Actually, yes, and it still might happen since this is an early look-see
>>>> at just the current GUI update direction and not the foundational
>>>> changes. What I suspect is that they will make significant
>>>> infrastructure changes that will put everything behind a pay wall, just
>>>> like Apple, disallowing sideloading of non- Windows Store software.
>>> I don't think the latter is tecnically possible, unless they
>>> completely re-design the OS. After all, "sideloading of non-Windows
>>> Store software" involves just a bunch of files (.exe, .dll, etc.) and
>>> some installation procedure/script/tool/<whatever>, if any.
>>>
>>> What are they going to do? Prevent people to download files and put
>>> them in the appropriate folders (Program Files, ProgramData, etc.)? I
>>> don't think so.
>> Well, since those and other filetypes are Microsoft-imagined, they could
>> simply re-imagine another set of executable filetype and "legacy" the
>> pre-Win11 ones, no? Windows executable aren't standalone and their
>> mime-type is first confirmed by the OS, yes?
>
> They could only pull that off, if they completely seperate private/
> personal/consumer/<whatever> users from business (etc.) users, as
> there's no way they could afford to lose the income from the latter
> part. (Not that they can afford to lose (most of) the former.)
>
> Meantime, this article is brought to you, courtesy of 18+ year old
> software, still running fine.

Who's to tell? Bill'em Gates salivates everyday when he see how enriched
Apple has become with their wall-garden approach. Apple successfully
separated their MacOS systems (non-walled garden) from the iOS
(walled-garden) ones. Microsoft could very well be trying to do the same
thing, again.

Multinationals seldom do anything that won't (in their minds) increase
market share AND quarterly revenues. I suspect Windows 11 (or whatever
they decide to call it) will be a move in that direction.

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

In article <saj03t$jeb$1@dont-email.me>, Sailfish
<NIXCAPSsailfish@NIXCAPSunforgettable.com> wrote:

> >>>>>
> >>>>> Windows hasn't fundamentally changed since Windows 7. It's all just a
> >>>>> skinning exercise so that the vendors can sell more hardware which
> >>>>> supports the 'new' windows.
> >>>> Actually, yes, and it still might happen since this is an early look-see
> >>>> at just the current GUI update direction and not the foundational
> >>>> changes. What I suspect is that they will make significant
> >>>> infrastructure changes that will put everything behind a pay wall, just
> >>>> like Apple, disallowing sideloading of non- Windows Store software.
> >>> I don't think the latter is tecnically possible, unless they
> >>> completely re-design the OS. After all, "sideloading of non-Windows
> >>> Store software" involves just a bunch of files (.exe, .dll, etc.) and
> >>> some installation procedure/script/tool/<whatever>, if any.
> >>>
> >>> What are they going to do? Prevent people to download files and put
> >>> them in the appropriate folders (Program Files, ProgramData, etc.)? I
> >>> don't think so.
> >> Well, since those and other filetypes are Microsoft-imagined, they could
> >> simply re-imagine another set of executable filetype and "legacy" the
> >> pre-Win11 ones, no? Windows executable aren't standalone and their
> >> mime-type is first confirmed by the OS, yes?
> >
> > They could only pull that off, if they completely seperate private/
> > personal/consumer/<whatever> users from business (etc.) users, as
> > there's no way they could afford to lose the income from the latter
> > part. (Not that they can afford to lose (most of) the former.)
> >
> > Meantime, this article is brought to you, courtesy of 18+ year old
> > software, still running fine.
>
> Who's to tell? Bill'em Gates salivates everyday when he see how enriched

bill gates is long gone, as is steve ballmer.

satya nadella runs the show now.

> Apple has become with their wall-garden approach.

the only walls are the ones people put up on their own.

> Apple successfully
> separated their MacOS systems (non-walled garden) from the iOS
> (walled-garden) ones.

they're different devices, designed in different eras and with
different design goals.

ios took lessons from the problems in mac os and windows and other
devices over the last 40ish years.

also, mobile devices have a lot more personal data on them, making them
a *much* higher value target.

> Microsoft could very well be trying to do the same
> thing, again.

that would break shitloads of software.

> Multinationals seldom do anything that won't (in their minds) increase
> market share AND quarterly revenues. I suspect Windows 11 (or whatever
> they decide to call it) will be a move in that direction.

they have a fiduciary obligation to their shareholders.

nospam graced us with on 6/18/2021 2:16 PM:
>
> bill gates is long gone, as is steve ballmer.
>
> satya nadella runs the show now.
>
Riiiight. Certainly a man of his worth has NO influence on the company
that continues to pay him hefty dividends.

>> Apple has become with their wall-garden approach.
>
> the only walls are the ones people put up on their own.
>
heh, the ol' wax-philosophical straw man counter ploy.

>> Apple successfully
>> separated their MacOS systems (non-walled garden) from the iOS
>> (walled-garden) ones.
>
> they're different devices, designed in different eras and with
> different design goals.
>
Agree
> ios took lessons from the problems in mac os and windows and other
> devices over the last 40ish years.
>
Agree
> also, mobile devices have a lot more personal data on them, making them
> a *much* higher value target.
>
Sure, though, not sure that was Jobs thought at the time.

Anyway, I'm not trying slime Apple for its founder's genius for
innovation. The iPhone was one of our generation's most revolutionary
inventions that even today is a major societal leveling tool and a curse
to privacy and child protection.

My point is that all multinational companies, hi-tech especially, care
only about bottom lines and how to increase them, including micros~1.

>> Microsoft could very well be trying to do the same
>> thing, again.
>
> that would break shitloads of software.
>
Well, as I said, if they took care of their enterprise accounts and
users willing to pay for the privilege via an "ultimate" offering, I see
see them doing the calculus that breaking a shitload of software that
they don't get any revenue from makes perfect sense.

>> Multinationals seldom do anything that won't (in their minds) increase
>> market share AND quarterly revenues. I suspect Windows 11 (or whatever
>> they decide to call it) will be a move in that direction.
>
> they have a fiduciary obligation to their shareholders.

That's why Microsoft released Vista when lots beta tester (myself
included, warned them about mass incompatibilities and why they released
Win8 and then knowing that those UI's created significant regression
problems to the solid Win7 install base. They make mistakes based on
faulty premises.

Additionally, there are rumors that the new system will reside on their
Azure cloud and unbridle the user from the need to even need a
sophisticated box to run programs. If that were to come about, I suspect
that allowing people to run their own roll-your-own programs on the
cloud would be highly unlikely.

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

In article <saj7la$jfe$1@dont-email.me>, Sailfish
<NIXCAPSsailfish@NIXCAPSunforgettable.com> wrote:

> >
> > bill gates is long gone, as is steve ballmer.
> >
> > satya nadella runs the show now.
> >
> Riiiight. Certainly a man of his worth has NO influence on the company
> that continues to pay him hefty dividends.

he was on the board until just recently, but regardless, satya has the
final say in what microsoft does.

> >> Apple has become with their wall-garden approach.
> >
> > the only walls are the ones people put up on their own.
> >
> heh, the ol' wax-philosophical straw man counter ploy.

no straw man.

those who say apple is a walled garden are those who don't use it much,
if at all.

just about anything that can be done with a windows pc and certainly a
linux box can also be done on a mac.

ios and android are different than macos and windows in both design and
the hardware, but there aren't any walls there either. in fact, a lot
of tasks are much easier on ios than on android.

nothing is perfect in every situation.

> >> Apple successfully
> >> separated their MacOS systems (non-walled garden) from the iOS
> >> (walled-garden) ones.
> >
> > they're different devices, designed in different eras and with
> > different design goals.
> >
> Agree
> > ios took lessons from the problems in mac os and windows and other
> > devices over the last 40ish years.
> >
> Agree
> > also, mobile devices have a lot more personal data on them, making them
> > a *much* higher value target.
> >
> Sure, though, not sure that was Jobs thought at the time.

jobs was there throughout the design of the iphone and ipad.

> Anyway, I'm not trying slime Apple for its founder's genius for
> innovation. The iPhone was one of our generation's most revolutionary
> inventions that even today is a major societal leveling tool and a curse
> to privacy and child protection.
>
> My point is that all multinational companies, hi-tech especially, care
> only about bottom lines and how to increase them, including micros~1.

just about every company cares about bottom lines, otherwise they won't
be in business for very long.

public companies have an obligation to their shareholders to do so.

> >> Microsoft could very well be trying to do the same
> >> thing, again.
> >
> > that would break shitloads of software.
> >
> Well, as I said, if they took care of their enterprise accounts and
> users willing to pay for the privilege via an "ultimate" offering, I see
> see them doing the calculus that breaking a shitload of software that
> they don't get any revenue from makes perfect sense.

breaking existing software is not normally a good strategy.

this is particularly true for enterprise customers, who are not about
to rewrite all of their custom software.

> >> Multinationals seldom do anything that won't (in their minds) increase
> >> market share AND quarterly revenues. I suspect Windows 11 (or whatever
> >> they decide to call it) will be a move in that direction.
> >
> > they have a fiduciary obligation to their shareholders.
>
> That's why Microsoft released Vista when lots beta tester (myself
> included, warned them about mass incompatibilities and why they released
> Win8 and then knowing that those UI's created significant regression
> problems to the solid Win7 install base. They make mistakes based on
> faulty premises.

win8 was an attempt to be both desktop and mobile at the same time and
did neither particularly well.

> Additionally, there are rumors that the new system will reside on their
> Azure cloud and unbridle the user from the need to even need a
> sophisticated box to run programs. If that were to come about, I suspect
> that allowing people to run their own roll-your-own programs on the
> cloud would be highly unlikely.

that might be an option, given that other companies are already doing
it with great success.

if they do, it won't be the only version available. not everyone wants
a cloud solution.

nospam graced us with on 6/19/2021 6:03 AM:
> In article <saj7la$jfe$1@dont-email.me>, Sailfish
> <NIXCAPSsailfish@NIXCAPSunforgettable.com> wrote:
>
>> Riiiight. Certainly a man of his worth has NO influence on the company
>> that continues to pay him hefty dividends.
>
> he was on the board until just recently, but regardless, satya has the
> final say in what microsoft does.
>
True but that's like saying Pres(s) Trump and Biden have the final say
when we all know that each of them had their puppetmaster. In Trump's
case it was most likely his son-in-law's father's money and with Biden
it's clear that it's not him designing the policy.

>>>> Apple has become with their wall-garden approach.
>>> the only walls are the ones people put up on their own.
>>>
>> heh, the ol' wax-philosophical straw man counter ploy.
>
> no straw man.
>
> those who say apple is a walled garden are those who don't use it much,
> if at all.
>
> just about anything that can be done with a windows pc and certainly a
> linux box can also be done on a mac.
>
Interesting though that one can't legally run MacOS on either of those
non-Apple platforms, no? Also, to design iOS apps, one must use a Mac
for development.

> ios and android are different than macos and windows in both design and
> the hardware, but there aren't any walls there either. in fact, a lot
> of tasks are much easier on ios than on android.
>
> nothing is perfect in every situation.
>
If one cannot easily sideload apps, then the system is, by design,
behind a walled garden.

>>> also, mobile devices have a lot more personal data on them, making them
>>> a *much* higher value target.
>>>
>> Sure, though, not sure that was Jobs thought at the time.
>
> jobs was there throughout the design of the iphone and ipad.
>
Near the end, with cancer ravaging his body, it's questionable how
in-tuned he was with the details of their development. I honestly don't
know how knowledgeable he was with the full ramifications of the privacy
monetization aspects. I'd be interested in reading a credible article
about it is you have one.

>> Anyway, I'm not trying slime Apple for its founder's genius for
>> innovation. The iPhone was one of our generation's most revolutionary
>> inventions that even today is a major societal leveling tool and a curse
>> to privacy and child protection.
>>
>> My point is that all multinational companies, hi-tech especially, care
>> only about bottom lines and how to increase them, including micros~1.
>
> just about every company cares about bottom lines, otherwise they won't
> be in business for very long.
>
> public companies have an obligation to their shareholders to do so.
>
Of course, and if harvesting of personal information is profitable
(which it surely is) then they'll pursue it, as they surely have. That
the reason there needs to be a strong balancing force to keep them in
control. Our DOJ and past administrations have allowed this
laissez-faire corruption to continue and only give lip-service to
spanking them for their over-reach.
>
> breaking existing software is not normally a good strategy.
>
> this is particularly true for enterprise customers, who are not about
> to rewrite all of their custom software.
>
Firefox in the not too distant past legacied their XUL/XPCOM rendering
and extension APIs, essentially, killing off all of their huge 3d party
developers programs and not providing any migration APIs that would
allow those extensions to be re-designed to run on the new architecture.

Even when Apple, followed by Microsoft changed their desktop from
skeuomorphic to flat-design caused corporations to invest in re-training
their employees.

And let's not forget all the love Microsoft engendered when they decided
that just what their Office users needed was to throw out the old menu
UI and expose them to all the fantastic goodness of multi-layered ribbons!
>
>> Additionally, there are rumors that the new system will reside on their
>> Azure cloud and unbridle the user from the need to even need a
>> sophisticated box to run programs. If that were to come about, I suspect
>> that allowing people to run their own roll-your-own programs on the
>> cloud would be highly unlikely.
>
> that might be an option, given that other companies are already doing
> it with great success.
>
> if they do, it won't be the only version available. not everyone wants
> a cloud solution.

Agreed, I being one of them. Luckily for me, my computing needs are
nicely handled with what I have now on Win7. And for programs like
TurboTax, my Win10 virtual machine on VBox handles that fine. Gaming is
an area where I may have to purchase a Win10+ box since I never really
took to consoles.

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

In article <sal2hh$7br$1@dont-email.me>, Sailfish
<NIXCAPSsailfish@NIXCAPSunforgettable.com> wrote:

> >> Riiiight. Certainly a man of his worth has NO influence on the company
> >> that continues to pay him hefty dividends.
> >
> > he was on the board until just recently, but regardless, satya has the
> > final say in what microsoft does.
> >
> True but that's like saying Pres(s) Trump and Biden have the final say
> when we all know that each of them had their puppetmaster. In Trump's
> case it was most likely his son-in-law's father's money and with Biden
> it's clear that it's not him designing the policy.

it's nothing at all like that, which isn't even accurate.

> >>>> Apple has become with their wall-garden approach.
> >>> the only walls are the ones people put up on their own.
> >>>
> >> heh, the ol' wax-philosophical straw man counter ploy.
> >
> > no straw man.
> >
> > those who say apple is a walled garden are those who don't use it much,
> > if at all.
> >
> > just about anything that can be done with a windows pc and certainly a
> > linux box can also be done on a mac.
> >
> Interesting though that one can't legally run MacOS on either of those
> non-Apple platforms, no?

so what? the claim was that macs were a walled garden. that is false.
they are not.

> Also, to design iOS apps, one must use a Mac
> for development.

false. there are cross-platform options, plus apple just announced
support for writing ios apps on an ipad.

it also doesn't matter. using a mac is the least of anyone's problems
in writing apps. if money is a problem, then a used mac is more than
sufficient. if the app is any good, the mac will pay for itself in
short order, regardless of how much the mac cost, which can be used for
windows development too, along with just about everything else.

> > ios and android are different than macos and windows in both design and
> > the hardware, but there aren't any walls there either. in fact, a lot
> > of tasks are much easier on ios than on android.
> >
> > nothing is perfect in every situation.
> >
> If one cannot easily sideload apps, then the system is, by design,
> behind a walled garden.

nope. the walls have many doors. they're normally closed, but it's not
difficult to open one.

> >>> also, mobile devices have a lot more personal data on them, making them
> >>> a *much* higher value target.
> >>>
> >> Sure, though, not sure that was Jobs thought at the time.
> >
> > jobs was there throughout the design of the iphone and ipad.
> >
> Near the end, with cancer ravaging his body, it's questionable how
> in-tuned he was with the details of their development. I honestly don't
> know how knowledgeable he was with the full ramifications of the privacy
> monetization aspects. I'd be interested in reading a credible article
> about it is you have one.

jobs was on top of things right up until the last few months, about the
time he resigned as ceo.

> >> Anyway, I'm not trying slime Apple for its founder's genius for
> >> innovation. The iPhone was one of our generation's most revolutionary
> >> inventions that even today is a major societal leveling tool and a curse
> >> to privacy and child protection.
> >>
> >> My point is that all multinational companies, hi-tech especially, care
> >> only about bottom lines and how to increase them, including micros~1.
> >
> > just about every company cares about bottom lines, otherwise they won't
> > be in business for very long.
> >
> > public companies have an obligation to their shareholders to do so.
> >
> Of course, and if harvesting of personal information is profitable
> (which it surely is) then they'll pursue it, as they surely have. That
> the reason there needs to be a strong balancing force to keep them in
> control. Our DOJ and past administrations have allowed this
> laissez-faire corruption to continue and only give lip-service to
> spanking them for their over-reach.

the problem is that politicians don't understand technology (or much
else*), plus they are also paid off by lobbyists. their goal is to stay
in office, not to do what's good for society.

* it ain't just technology they don't understand:
<https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jun/09/texas-republican-louie-
gohmert-climate-change>
The Texas Republican congressman Louie Gohmert has asked a
senior US government official if changing the moon¹s orbit around
the Earth, or the Earth¹s orbit around the sun, might be a solution
for climate change.
....
³We know there¹s been significant solar flare activity, and so Š is
there anything that the National Forest Service or BLM can do to
change the course of the moon¹s orbit, or the Earth¹s orbit around
the sun?² Gohmert asked. ³Obviously that would have profound
effects on our climate.²

> >> Additionally, there are rumors that the new system will reside on their
> >> Azure cloud and unbridle the user from the need to even need a
> >> sophisticated box to run programs. If that were to come about, I suspect
> >> that allowing people to run their own roll-your-own programs on the
> >> cloud would be highly unlikely.
> >
> > that might be an option, given that other companies are already doing
> > it with great success.
> >
> > if they do, it won't be the only version available. not everyone wants
> > a cloud solution.
>
> Agreed, I being one of them. Luckily for me, my computing needs are
> nicely handled with what I have now on Win7. And for programs like
> TurboTax, my Win10 virtual machine on VBox handles that fine.

both local hardware and cloud solutions have their uses.

nothing is ideal for every situation.

> Gaming is
> an area where I may have to purchase a Win10+ box since I never really
> took to consoles.

there's always stadia :)

nospam graced us with on 6/19/2021 11:22 AM:
> In article <sal2hh$7br$1@dont-email.me>, Sailfish
> <NIXCAPSsailfish@NIXCAPSunforgettable.com> wrote:
>
>>>> Riiiight. Certainly a man of his worth has NO influence on the company
>>>> that continues to pay him hefty dividends.
>>> he was on the board until just recently, but regardless, satya has the
>>> final say in what microsoft does.
>>>
>> True but that's like saying Pres(s) Trump and Biden have the final say
>> when we all know that each of them had their puppetmaster. In Trump's
>> case it was most likely his son-in-law's father's money and with Biden
>> it's clear that it's not him designing the policy.
>
> it's nothing at all like that, which isn't even accurate.
>
So you say. Anyway, I used it only as an analogy and don't wish to
swerve off-topic.

>>>>>> Apple has become with their wall-garden approach.
>>>>> the only walls are the ones people put up on their own.
>>>>>
>>>> heh, the ol' wax-philosophical straw man counter ploy.
>>> no straw man.
>>>
>>> those who say apple is a walled garden are those who don't use it much,
>>> if at all.
>>>
>>> just about anything that can be done with a windows pc and certainly a
>>> linux box can also be done on a mac.
>>>
>> Interesting though that one can't legally run MacOS on either of those
>> non-Apple platforms, no?
>
> so what? the claim was that macs were a walled garden. that is false.
> they are not.
>
I don't recall ever claiming Macs are walled gardens.

>> Also, to design iOS apps, one must use a Mac
>> for development.
>
> false. there are cross-platform options, plus apple just announced
> support for writing ios apps on an ipad.
>
True. wrt to the requirements Apple forces developers to use Mac XCODE
to develop native apps on iPhones.

Oh, how magnanimous of them! Allowing one to develop native apps on
another one of their expensive devices. What next, them opening it up
for developing native apps on an Apple Watch?

> it also doesn't matter. using a mac is the least of anyone's problems
> in writing apps. if money is a problem, then a used mac is more than
> sufficient. if the app is any good, the mac will pay for itself in
> short order, regardless of how much the mac cost, which can be used for
> windows development too, along with just about everything else.
>
It does matter and is at the heart of what a walled garden is all about.
Whether it be paying 30% to the OS owners, or closed systems or forcing
developers to use competitor's software for web access, it all
anti-competitive turning the outside developers into working in a
company-owned environment where innovations are stymied and consumers
are over-priced.

>> If one cannot easily sideload apps, then the system is, by design,
>> behind a walled garden.
>
> nope. the walls have many doors. they're normally closed, but it's not
> difficult to open one.
>
If the doors are not "normally" opened then the possibility to monetize
their software in any meaningful way will never happen.

>>>>> also, mobile devices have a lot more personal data on them, making them
>>>>> a *much* higher value target.
>>>>>
>>>> Sure, though, not sure that was Jobs thought at the time.
>>> jobs was there throughout the design of the iphone and ipad.
>>>
>> Near the end, with cancer ravaging his body, it's questionable how
>> in-tuned he was with the details of their development. I honestly don't
>> know how knowledgeable he was with the full ramifications of the privacy
>> monetization aspects. I'd be interested in reading a credible article
>> about it is you have one.
>
> jobs was on top of things right up until the last few months, about the
> time he resigned as ceo.
>
About that article? I'm still interested. Not a taunt, simply intrigued.

>> Of course, and if harvesting of personal information is profitable
>> (which it surely is) then they'll pursue it, as they surely have. That
>> the reason there needs to be a strong balancing force to keep them in
>> control. Our DOJ and past administrations have allowed this
>> laissez-faire corruption to continue and only give lip-service to
>> spanking them for their over-reach.
>
> the problem is that politicians don't understand technology (or much
> else*), plus they are also paid off by lobbyists. their goal is to stay
> in office, not to do what's good for society.
>
On this we can agree. Less
Progressive/Libertarian/Conservative/Nativist, more Populist (no Trump
was NOT a Populist.) However, if you choose to respond, I welcome it but
will not continue this sub-thread.
>
>> Agreed, I being one of them. Luckily for me, my computing needs are
>> nicely handled with what I have now on Win7. And for programs like
>> TurboTax, my Win10 virtual machine on VBox handles that fine.
>
> both local hardware and cloud solutions have their uses.
>
> nothing is ideal for every situation.
>
Agree.

>> Gaming is
>> an area where I may have to purchase a Win10+ box since I never really
>> took to consoles.
>
> there's always stadia :)

heh, I should have mentioned that the biggest problem I had with
consoles was the use of controllers vs. mouse

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

In article <saliua$obt$1@dont-email.me>, Sailfish
<NIXCAPSsailfish@NIXCAPSunforgettable.com> wrote:

> >>>>>> Apple has become with their wall-garden approach.
> >>>>> the only walls are the ones people put up on their own.
> >>>>>
> >>>> heh, the ol' wax-philosophical straw man counter ploy.
> >>> no straw man.
> >>>
> >>> those who say apple is a walled garden are those who don't use it much,
> >>> if at all.
> >>>
> >>> just about anything that can be done with a windows pc and certainly a
> >>> linux box can also be done on a mac.
> >>>
> >> Interesting though that one can't legally run MacOS on either of those
> >> non-Apple platforms, no?
> >
> > so what? the claim was that macs were a walled garden. that is false.
> > they are not.
> >
> I don't recall ever claiming Macs are walled gardens.

you said apple was a walled garden.

macs have no walls and never have.

ios devices are designed to be more secure, which some people
incorrectly call walls, however, it can be bypassed if the user wants.
it's not a good idea, but it's certainly possible.

> >> Also, to design iOS apps, one must use a Mac
> >> for development.
> >
> > false. there are cross-platform options, plus apple just announced
> > support for writing ios apps on an ipad.
> >
> True. wrt to the requirements Apple forces developers to use Mac XCODE
> to develop native apps on iPhones.

no they don't, and apple doesn't force anyone to do anything.

xcode is the preferred method, but not the only method.

ios app developers can use visual studio:
<https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/features/mobile-app-development/>
Build cloud-connected cross platform mobile apps and games for
iOS, Android, and Windows

<https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/cross-platform/cross-plat
form-mobile-development-in-visual-studio?view=vs-2019>
You can build apps for Android, iOS, and Windows devices by using
Visual Studio. As you design your app, use tools in Visual Studio to
easily add connected services such as Microsoft 365, Azure App
Service, and Application Insights.

another option for ios app development is on an ipad.

the preferred ide for android app development is android studio. there
are alternatives there too, including visual studio.

> Oh, how magnanimous of them! Allowing one to develop native apps on
> another one of their expensive devices. What next, them opening it up
> for developing native apps on an Apple Watch?

i'll ignore the last quip, but macs aren't expensive. that's yet
another myth.

prices are similar for similar specs, and in many cases, macs are less
expensive.

> > it also doesn't matter. using a mac is the least of anyone's problems
> > in writing apps. if money is a problem, then a used mac is more than
> > sufficient. if the app is any good, the mac will pay for itself in
> > short order, regardless of how much the mac cost, which can be used for
> > windows development too, along with just about everything else.
> >
> It does matter and is at the heart of what a walled garden is all about.
> Whether it be paying 30% to the OS owners, or closed systems or forcing
> developers to use competitor's software for web access, it all
> anti-competitive turning the outside developers into working in a
> company-owned environment where innovations are stymied and consumers
> are over-priced.

you haven't done any app development, have you?

30% is cheap for the many benefits it brings, especially for indie
developers, who would end up paying more than 30% if they did it on
their own.

they can always sell their apps outside of the app store if they want,
either at the same time or instead of.

> >> If one cannot easily sideload apps, then the system is, by design,
> >> behind a walled garden.
> >
> > nope. the walls have many doors. they're normally closed, but it's not
> > difficult to open one.
> >
> If the doors are not "normally" opened then the possibility to monetize
> their software in any meaningful way will never happen.

those are two entirely unrelated things.

app developers set the prices of their apps.

most apps are free, where apple/google/microsoft makes *nothing*,
despite hosting the app and offering bandwidth for free.

> >>>>> also, mobile devices have a lot more personal data on them, making them
> >>>>> a *much* higher value target.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Sure, though, not sure that was Jobs thought at the time.
> >>> jobs was there throughout the design of the iphone and ipad.
> >>>
> >> Near the end, with cancer ravaging his body, it's questionable how
> >> in-tuned he was with the details of their development. I honestly don't
> >> know how knowledgeable he was with the full ramifications of the privacy
> >> monetization aspects. I'd be interested in reading a credible article
> >> about it is you have one.
> >
> > jobs was on top of things right up until the last few months, about the
> > time he resigned as ceo.
> >
> About that article? I'm still interested. Not a taunt, simply intrigued.

jobs died october, 2011, so look for news stories leading up to that
time.

one such story was in june, 2011 just four months prior to his death,
where he gave a presentation to the cupertino city council about what
is now apple's spaceship campus, previously hewlett-packard:
<https://www.mercurynews.com/2011/06/08/apples-steve-jobs-appears-at-cup
ertino-city-council-meeting-to-pitch-huge-campus-expansion-2/>
Apple (AAPL) CEO Steve Jobs made a surprise appearance at the
Cupertino City Council last night to announce Apple¹s plans for a
spaceshiplike circular building in Cupertino that will house 12,000
workers on the site of what is now a Hewlett-Packard (HPQ) campus.

you can watch it here:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtuz5OmOh_M>

he is quite thin (and likely weak), but that's about it. his brain is
fine.

nospam graced us with on 6/21/2021 8:27 AM:
> In article <saliua$obt$1@dont-email.me>, Sailfish
> <NIXCAPSsailfish@NIXCAPSunforgettable.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>>>> Apple has become with their wall-garden approach.
>>>>>>> the only walls are the ones people put up on their own.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> heh, the ol' wax-philosophical straw man counter ploy.
>>>>> no straw man.
>>>>>
>>>>> those who say apple is a walled garden are those who don't use it much,
>>>>> if at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> just about anything that can be done with a windows pc and certainly a
>>>>> linux box can also be done on a mac.
>>>>>
>>>> Interesting though that one can't legally run MacOS on either of those
>>>> non-Apple platforms, no?
>>> so what? the claim was that macs were a walled garden. that is false.
>>> they are not.
>>>
>> I don't recall ever claiming Macs are walled gardens.
>
> you said apple was a walled garden.
>
> macs have no walls and never have.
>
> ios devices are designed to be more secure, which some people
> incorrectly call walls, however, it can be bypassed if the user wants.
> it's not a good idea, but it's certainly possible.
>
>>>> Also, to design iOS apps, one must use a Mac
>>>> for development.
>>> false. there are cross-platform options, plus apple just announced
>>> support for writing ios apps on an ipad.
>>>
>> True. wrt to the requirements Apple forces developers to use Mac XCODE
>> to develop native apps on iPhones.
>
> no they don't, and apple doesn't force anyone to do anything.
>
> xcode is the preferred method, but not the only method.
>
> ios app developers can use visual studio:
> <https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/features/mobile-app-development/>
> Build cloud-connected cross platform mobile apps and games for
> iOS, Android, and Windows
>
> <https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/cross-platform/cross-plat
> form-mobile-development-in-visual-studio?view=vs-2019>
> You can build apps for Android, iOS, and Windows devices by using
> Visual Studio. As you design your app, use tools in Visual Studio to
> easily add connected services such as Microsoft 365, Azure App
> Service, and Application Insights.
>
> another option for ios app development is on an ipad.
>
> the preferred ide for android app development is android studio. there
> are alternatives there too, including visual studio.
>
>> Oh, how magnanimous of them! Allowing one to develop native apps on
>> another one of their expensive devices. What next, them opening it up
>> for developing native apps on an Apple Watch?
>
> i'll ignore the last quip, but macs aren't expensive. that's yet
> another myth.
>
> prices are similar for similar specs, and in many cases, macs are less
> expensive.
>
>>> it also doesn't matter. using a mac is the least of anyone's problems
>>> in writing apps. if money is a problem, then a used mac is more than
>>> sufficient. if the app is any good, the mac will pay for itself in
>>> short order, regardless of how much the mac cost, which can be used for
>>> windows development too, along with just about everything else.
>>>
>> It does matter and is at the heart of what a walled garden is all about.
>> Whether it be paying 30% to the OS owners, or closed systems or forcing
>> developers to use competitor's software for web access, it all
>> anti-competitive turning the outside developers into working in a
>> company-owned environment where innovations are stymied and consumers
>> are over-priced.
>
> you haven't done any app development, have you?
>
> 30% is cheap for the many benefits it brings, especially for indie
> developers, who would end up paying more than 30% if they did it on
> their own.
>
> they can always sell their apps outside of the app store if they want,
> either at the same time or instead of.
>
>>>> If one cannot easily sideload apps, then the system is, by design,
>>>> behind a walled garden.
>>> nope. the walls have many doors. they're normally closed, but it's not
>>> difficult to open one.
>>>
>> If the doors are not "normally" opened then the possibility to monetize
>> their software in any meaningful way will never happen.
>
> those are two entirely unrelated things.
>
> app developers set the prices of their apps.
>
> most apps are free, where apple/google/microsoft makes *nothing*,
> despite hosting the app and offering bandwidth for free.
>
>>>>>>> also, mobile devices have a lot more personal data on them, making them
>>>>>>> a *much* higher value target.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure, though, not sure that was Jobs thought at the time.
>>>>> jobs was there throughout the design of the iphone and ipad.
>>>>>
>>>> Near the end, with cancer ravaging his body, it's questionable how
>>>> in-tuned he was with the details of their development. I honestly don't
>>>> know how knowledgeable he was with the full ramifications of the privacy
>>>> monetization aspects. I'd be interested in reading a credible article
>>>> about it is you have one.
>>> jobs was on top of things right up until the last few months, about the
>>> time he resigned as ceo.
>>>
>> About that article? I'm still interested. Not a taunt, simply intrigued.
>
> jobs died october, 2011, so look for news stories leading up to that
> time.
>
> one such story was in june, 2011 just four months prior to his death,
> where he gave a presentation to the cupertino city council about what
> is now apple's spaceship campus, previously hewlett-packard:
> <https://www.mercurynews.com/2011/06/08/apples-steve-jobs-appears-at-cup
> ertino-city-council-meeting-to-pitch-huge-campus-expansion-2/>
> Apple (AAPL) CEO Steve Jobs made a surprise appearance at the
> Cupertino City Council last night to announce Apple¹s plans for a
> spaceshiplike circular building in Cupertino that will house 12,000
> workers on the site of what is now a Hewlett-Packard (HPQ) campus.
>
> you can watch it here:
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtuz5OmOh_M>
>
> he is quite thin (and likely weak), but that's about it. his brain is
> fine.

Thanks for the YT link, I will listen to it later.

As to the OT non-Windows responses (one I admit starting, as was pointed
out to me earlier), I will no longer continue the discussion here.

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg