All I wanted to do was use dd to clone a Mint Linux installation on an
ATA drive over to a SATA.

I booted from a Ubuntu 20.04 live DVD and when I used dd
I got "permission" denied /dev/sda (source)

I've used dd before to clone Windows and Mac drives and it worked, so I
don't know what is going on here.

I tried Clonezilla and it said it had an unrepairable problem with the
boot partition.

I don't get it, the machine boots just fine.

BTW: Why the heck does Linux use FAT32 as the boot partition, that seems
like asking for trouble.

Just for fun, I did run CHKDSK (without the /f) on that partition from
a Windows machine and no problems were found.

With all the time I've wasted, I could have done a fresh install already
but am curious as to what is going on.

On 10/21/2021 10:30 AM, philo wrote:
> All I wanted to do was use dd to clone a Mint Linux installation on an ATA drive over to a SATA.
>
>
> I booted from a Ubuntu 20.04 live DVD and when I used dd
> I got "permission" denied /dev/sda     (source)
>
> I've used dd before to clone Windows and Mac drives and it worked, so I don't know what is going on here.
>
>
> I tried Clonezilla and it said it had an unrepairable problem with the boot partition.
>
>
> I don't get it, the machine boots just fine.
>
>
> BTW: Why the heck does Linux use FAT32 as the boot partition, that seems like asking for trouble.
>
>
> Just for fun, I did run CHKDSK  (without the /f) on that partition from a Windows machine and no problems were found.
>
>
>
>
> With all the time I've wasted, I could have done a fresh install already but am curious as to what is going on.
>

# Show us an example of your invocation please :-)

sudo dd if=/dev/sdb of=/dev/sdc

Without the sudo, it will end badly.

*******

# There is also a dd.exe for Windows, in case you
# want to prove it really does work as a hard drive.

Instructions:

http://www.chrysocome.net/dd

Download:

http://www.chrysocome.net/downloads/dd-0.6beta3.zip

In an Administrator Command Prompt:

cd /d C:\where\I\unpacked\my\dd\prog

dd --list # collect win namespace info

Paul

On 10/21/21 9:38 AM, Paul wrote:
> On 10/21/2021 10:30 AM, philo wrote:
>> All I wanted to do was use dd to clone a Mint Linux installation on an
>> ATA drive over to a SATA.
>>
>>
>> I booted from a Ubuntu 20.04 live DVD and when I used dd
>> I got "permission" denied /dev/sda     (source)
>>
>> I've used dd before to clone Windows and Mac drives and it worked, so
>> I don't know what is going on here.
>>
>>
>> I tried Clonezilla and it said it had an unrepairable problem with the
>> boot partition.
>>
>>
>> I don't get it, the machine boots just fine.
>>
>>
>> BTW: Why the heck does Linux use FAT32 as the boot partition, that
>> seems like asking for trouble.
>>
>>
>> Just for fun, I did run CHKDSK  (without the /f) on that partition
>> from a Windows machine and no problems were found.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> With all the time I've wasted, I could have done a fresh install
>> already but am curious as to what is going on.
>>
>
> # Show us an example of your invocation please :-)
>
>   sudo dd if=/dev/sdb of=/dev/sdc
>
> Without the sudo, it will end badly.

Is sudo necessary from a live DVD?

I can open gparted, for example directly

I don't ever recall using sudo from a live DVD
>
> *******
>
> # There is also a dd.exe for Windows, in case you
> # want to prove it really does work as a hard drive.
>
> Instructions:
>
>    http://www.chrysocome.net/dd
>
> Download:
>
>    http://www.chrysocome.net/downloads/dd-0.6beta3.zip
>
> In an Administrator Command Prompt:
>
>    cd /d C:\where\I\unpacked\my\dd\prog
>
>    dd --list                        # collect win namespace info
>
>  Paul
>
>

On 21.10.2021 at 09:30, philo scribbled:

> BTW: Why the heck does Linux use FAT32 as the boot partition, that
> seems like asking for trouble.

It's part of the UEFI specification. The UEFI firmware needs FAT — or
a FAT-derivative such as FAT32 or exFAT — for the EFI system
partition because it doesn't understand any other filesystems.

On a machine that boots in native UEFI mode, GRUB will install a
special version of its first stage — effectively an EFI executable — in
the EFI system partition. On dual-boot/multi-boot machines, this allows
one to directly choose which operating system to boot from the UEFI boot
manager menu.

Systems that boot in legacy BIOS mode don't have an EFI system
partition, and then the first stage of GRUB is commonly installed in
the master boot record of the drive.

--
With respect,
= Aragorn

On 21.10.2021 at 09:50, philo scribbled:

> On 10/21/21 9:38 AM, Paul wrote:
>
> > # Show us an example of your invocation please :-)
> >
> >   sudo dd if=/dev/sdb of=/dev/sdc
> >
> > Without the sudo, it will end badly.
>
> Is sudo necessary from a live DVD?
>
> I can open gparted, for example directly
>
> I don't ever recall using sudo from a live DVD

It depends on the live CD. Some live CDs have a polkit setup that
allows you to do things without needing sudo or su.

--
With respect,
= Aragorn

On 10/21/21 9:53 AM, Aragorn wrote:
> On 21.10.2021 at 09:30, philo scribbled:
>
>> BTW: Why the heck does Linux use FAT32 as the boot partition, that
>> seems like asking for trouble.
>
> It's part of the UEFI specification. The UEFI firmware needs FAT — or
> a FAT-derivative such as FAT32 or exFAT — for the EFI system
> partition because it doesn't understand any other filesystems.
>
> On a machine that boots in native UEFI mode, GRUB will install a
> special version of its first stage — effectively an EFI executable — in
> the EFI system partition. On dual-boot/multi-boot machines, this allows
> one to directly choose which operating system to boot from the UEFI boot
> manager menu.
>
> Systems that boot in legacy BIOS mode don't have an EFI system
> partition, and then the first stage of GRUB is commonly installed in
> the master boot record of the drive.
>
>

Aha!

Well the machine has a legacy BIOS so I don't need that partition then
but if I simply clone the system drive to the new drive, the machine
won't boot unless I also clone the boot sector.

At any rate, this is not as easy as it should be.

On 10/21/21 9:56 AM, Aragorn wrote:
> On 21.10.2021 at 09:50, philo scribbled:
>
>> On 10/21/21 9:38 AM, Paul wrote:
>>
>>> # Show us an example of your invocation please :-)
>>>
>>>   sudo dd if=/dev/sdb of=/dev/sdc
>>>
>>> Without the sudo, it will end badly.
>>
>> Is sudo necessary from a live DVD?
>>
>> I can open gparted, for example directly
>>
>> I don't ever recall using sudo from a live DVD
>
> It depends on the live CD. Some live CDs have a polkit setup that
> allows you to do things without needing sudo or su.
>

AFAIK sudo is not needed, and were it so, I have no idea what the
password would be.

There should be a simple way to clone a Linux drive

On 10/21/21 9:56 AM, Aragorn wrote:
> On 21.10.2021 at 09:50, philo scribbled:
>
>> On 10/21/21 9:38 AM, Paul wrote:
>>
>>> # Show us an example of your invocation please :-)
>>>
>>>   sudo dd if=/dev/sdb of=/dev/sdc
>>>
>>> Without the sudo, it will end badly.
>>
>> Is sudo necessary from a live DVD?
>>
>> I can open gparted, for example directly
>>
>> I don't ever recall using sudo from a live DVD
>
> It depends on the live CD. Some live CDs have a polkit setup that
> allows you to do things without needing sudo or su.
>

I am now running the clone operation from a machine with Linux on it and
not a live DVD. It is now in the clone process, when it's done, I will
confirm that it boots.

Now I have to figure out if sudo can be used on a live DVD

On 10/21/21 9:30 AM, philo wrote:
> All I wanted to do was use dd to clone a Mint Linux installation on an
> ATA drive over to a SATA.
>
>
> I booted from a Ubuntu 20.04 live DVD and when I used dd
> I got "permission" denied /dev/sda     (source)
>
> I've used dd before to clone Windows and Mac drives and it worked, so I
> don't know what is going on here.
>
>
> I tried Clonezilla and it said it had an unrepairable problem with the
> boot partition.
>
>
> I don't get it, the machine boots just fine.
>
>
> BTW: Why the heck does Linux use FAT32 as the boot partition, that seems
> like asking for trouble.
>
>
> Just for fun, I did run CHKDSK  (without the /f) on that partition from
> a Windows machine and no problems were found.
>
>
>
>
> With all the time I've wasted, I could have done a fresh install already
> but am curious as to what is going on.
>
>
>

Indeed, I should have used sudo from the live DVD

thank you

On 10/21/2021 1:34 PM, philo wrote:
> On 10/21/21 9:30 AM, philo wrote:
>> All I wanted to do was use dd to clone a Mint Linux installation on an ATA drive over to a SATA.
>>
>>
>> I booted from a Ubuntu 20.04 live DVD and when I used dd
>> I got "permission" denied /dev/sda     (source)
>>
>> I've used dd before to clone Windows and Mac drives and it worked, so I don't know what is going on here.
>>
>>
>> I tried Clonezilla and it said it had an unrepairable problem with the boot partition.
>>
>>
>> I don't get it, the machine boots just fine.
>>
>>
>> BTW: Why the heck does Linux use FAT32 as the boot partition, that seems like asking for trouble.
>>
>>
>> Just for fun, I did run CHKDSK  (without the /f) on that partition from a Windows machine and no problems were found.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> With all the time I've wasted, I could have done a fresh install already but am curious as to what is going on.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Indeed, I should have used sudo from the live DVD
>
> thank you

And the Live Session does not ask for the password,
on some of the ones I've used here at least.

It's really an easy-going situation :-)

Paul

On 10/21/21 1:44 PM, Paul wrote:
> On 10/21/2021 1:34 PM, philo wrote:
>> On 10/21/21 9:30 AM, philo wrote:
>>> All I wanted to do was use dd to clone a Mint Linux installation on
>>> an ATA drive over to a SATA.
>>>
>>>
>>> I booted from a Ubuntu 20.04 live DVD and when I used dd
>>> I got "permission" denied /dev/sda     (source)
>>>
>>> I've used dd before to clone Windows and Mac drives and it worked, so
>>> I don't know what is going on here.
>>>
>>>
>>> I tried Clonezilla and it said it had an unrepairable problem with
>>> the boot partition.
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't get it, the machine boots just fine.
>>>
>>>
>>> BTW: Why the heck does Linux use FAT32 as the boot partition, that
>>> seems like asking for trouble.
>>>
>>>
>>> Just for fun, I did run CHKDSK  (without the /f) on that partition
>>> from a Windows machine and no problems were found.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> With all the time I've wasted, I could have done a fresh install
>>> already but am curious as to what is going on.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Indeed, I should have used sudo from the live DVD
>>
>> thank you
>
> And the Live Session does not ask for the password,
> on some of the ones I've used here at least.
>
> It's really an easy-going situation :-)
>
>    Paul

Yep. All I had to do was use sudo and that was it

Anyway as it turned out dd worked fine but there was another problem as
grub did not recognize a file system.

I had a look at both the original and the cloned drive in gparted and
where the ext4 partition should have been it listed and unknown partition.

I then decided to just do a fresh install on my "new" drive...that only
took a few minutes.

Then I decided to delete all on the original drive but I first confirmed
that it was bootable and it was.

With gparted I first deleted the UEFI partition...as soon as I did, the
unrecognized partition showed up as ext4 and I could not delete it or
unmount it>

It said device is busy ...even after a reboot.

I finally took the mfg's tools and did a quick zero wipe and put the
drive back in storage.

Sheesh.

On 10/21/2021 3:57 PM, philo wrote:
> On 10/21/21 1:44 PM, Paul wrote:
>> On 10/21/2021 1:34 PM, philo wrote:
>>> On 10/21/21 9:30 AM, philo wrote:
>>>> All I wanted to do was use dd to clone a Mint Linux installation on an ATA drive over to a SATA.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I booted from a Ubuntu 20.04 live DVD and when I used dd
>>>> I got "permission" denied /dev/sda     (source)
>>>>
>>>> I've used dd before to clone Windows and Mac drives and it worked, so I don't know what is going on here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I tried Clonezilla and it said it had an unrepairable problem with the boot partition.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't get it, the machine boots just fine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> BTW: Why the heck does Linux use FAT32 as the boot partition, that seems like asking for trouble.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just for fun, I did run CHKDSK  (without the /f) on that partition from a Windows machine and no problems were found.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> With all the time I've wasted, I could have done a fresh install already but am curious as to what is going on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Indeed, I should have used sudo from the live DVD
>>>
>>> thank you
>>
>> And the Live Session does not ask for the password,
>> on some of the ones I've used here at least.
>>
>> It's really an easy-going situation :-)
>>
>>     Paul
>
>
>
> Yep. All I had to do was use sudo and that was it
>
> Anyway as it turned out dd worked fine but there was another problem as grub did not recognize a file system.
>
> I had a look at both the original and the cloned drive in gparted and where the ext4 partition should have been it listed and unknown partition.
>
>
> I then decided to just do a fresh install on my "new" drive...that only took a few minutes.
>
> Then I decided to delete all on the original drive but I first confirmed that it was bootable and it was.
>
> With gparted I first deleted the UEFI partition...as soon as I did, the unrecognized partition showed up as ext4 and I could not delete it or unmount it>
>
> It said device is busy ...even after a reboot.
>
>
> I finally took the mfg's tools and did a quick zero wipe and put the drive back in storage.
>
>
> Sheesh.

When you "clone" with "dd", that is too exact of a copy.

Being lazy individuals, that's why we search for "smart"
cloning tools, that reduce the labor needed to complete a clone.

The problem is, the second drive needs blkid changed on the
partitions, and blkid identifiers to be changed in GRUB things.
Such a procedure would make the source drive and the
destination drive "independent" of one another.

The fun begins, if you clone a disk, and now there are
two identical disks installed in the computer. Imagine
GRUBs surprise when it finds two slash partitions with
exactly the same identifier. The boot process could jump off
one disk, onto the other.

This is something the Macrium Boot Repair on the CD, does for
Windows partitions. Is modify the GUIDs in the boot menu, so
that two clones are independent of one another.

This is why you might want to try "lsblk" or similar
and see what the identifiers look like.

Paul

Well, I am now done with my project.

On my bench...test machine I got rid of all the ATA drives.

I now have Ubuntu, Win2k, XP, Win7 and Win10 each on its own drive.
The machine is a dual core 2ghz CPU with 4 gigs of RAM.

My other machine is an AMD 550 and I have a huge box full of drives for running older OSes such as Nt3.51 and OS/2.
I even have Windows 2 and 3.0

philo wrote:
> On 10/21/21 9:56 AM, Aragorn wrote:
>> On 21.10.2021 at 09:50, philo scribbled:
>>
>>> On 10/21/21 9:38 AM, Paul wrote:
>>>
>>>> # Show us an example of your invocation please :-)
>>>>
>>>>     sudo dd if=/dev/sdb of=/dev/sdc
>>>>
>>>> Without the sudo, it will end badly.
>>>
>>> Is sudo necessary from a live DVD?
>>>
>>> I can open gparted, for example directly
>>>
>>> I don't ever recall using sudo from a live DVD
>>
>> It depends on the live CD.  Some live CDs have a polkit setup that
>> allows you to do things without needing sudo or su.
>>
>
>
>
> AFAIK sudo is not needed, and were it so, I have no idea what the
> password would be.
>
> There should be a simple way to clone a Linux drive

With the Ubuntu CD your are user ubuntu and the password is "" empty so
when using sudo just hit enter at the password prompt. Of course if you
want you can set a password with command passwd...

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

On 10/22/21 1:27 PM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
> philo wrote:
>> On 10/21/21 9:56 AM, Aragorn wrote:
>>> On 21.10.2021 at 09:50, philo scribbled:
>>>
>>>> On 10/21/21 9:38 AM, Paul wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> # Show us an example of your invocation please :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>     sudo dd if=/dev/sdb of=/dev/sdc
>>>>>
>>>>> Without the sudo, it will end badly.
>>>>
>>>> Is sudo necessary from a live DVD?
>>>>
>>>> I can open gparted, for example directly
>>>>
>>>> I don't ever recall using sudo from a live DVD
>>>
>>> It depends on the live CD.  Some live CDs have a polkit setup that
>>> allows you to do things without needing sudo or su.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> AFAIK sudo is not needed, and were it so, I have no idea what the
>> password would be.
>>
>> There should be a simple way to clone a Linux drive
>
>
> With the Ubuntu CD your are user ubuntu and the password is "" empty so
> when using sudo just hit enter at the password prompt. Of course if you
> want you can set a password with command passwd...
>
>

Yep.

Next time, I will know