On 12/08/2023 11:46, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 12.08.23 um 12:41 schrieb Jörg Lorenz:
>> Am 12.08.23 um 12:26 schrieb Pancho:
>>> Looking at previous postings, it seems about average "on topic" for
>>> comp.os.linux.misc, it is 100% on topic for comp.sys.raspberry-pi.
>>>
>>> I'm interested.
>>>
>>> If you want to criticise, there is loads of other shit that we discuss
>>> that isn't on topic.
>>
>> Discussions with fake identities are futile.
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
>
> Before and after Covid I have no intention to talk to masked and
> anonymous people.
>

Well why don't you STFU then?
You have no way of knowing who here is using their real name, or even if
they have a real name. Many people have more than one name they commonly
use.

As for publishing a real email address, you must be bonkers. I have
enough spam as it is.

--
There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon
emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent
renewable energy.

Am 12.08.23 um 12:48 schrieb Pancho:
> On 12/08/2023 11:46, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 12.08.23 um 12:41 schrieb Jörg Lorenz:
>>> Am 12.08.23 um 12:26 schrieb Pancho:
>>>> Looking at previous postings, it seems about average "on topic" for
>>>> comp.os.linux.misc, it is 100% on topic for comp.sys.raspberry-pi.
>>>>
>>>> I'm interested.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to criticise, there is loads of other shit that we discuss
>>>> that isn't on topic.
>>>
>>> Discussions with fake identities are futile.
>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
>>
>> Before and after Covid I have no intention to talk to masked and
>> anonymous people.
>>
>
> Why are you talking to me?

Try to find out yourself.

--
Alea iacta est

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 06:11:10 -0400, Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:

> Am 12.08.23 um 11:55 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>> On 12/08/2023 10:10, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 12.08.23 um 09:43 schrieb Richard Kettlewell:
>>
>>>> At any rate, chatter about the longevity characteristics of storage
>>>> devices seems on topic here to me.
>>>
>>> This is a general hardware question and not of any relevance to Linux in
>>> particular.
>>>
>> If you look at the headers, assuming you can read, you will see that its
>> cross posted to comp.sys.raspberry-pi,
>
> comp.os.linux.misc
>
> Stop this X-posting! Get it?

Trying to police a newsgroup that is not moderated will not work.

If you don't like the discussion filter it out of your feed, either by
poster, or by thread. Complaining will not stop it and just adds to the
noise, or gets your articles filtered out by others.

That's how usenet works.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

On 2023-08-12, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 12/08/2023 11:46, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 12.08.23 um 12:41 schrieb Jörg Lorenz:
>>> Am 12.08.23 um 12:26 schrieb Pancho:
>>>> Looking at previous postings, it seems about average "on topic" for
>>>> comp.os.linux.misc, it is 100% on topic for comp.sys.raspberry-pi.
>>>>
>>>> I'm interested.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to criticise, there is loads of other shit that we discuss
>>>> that isn't on topic.
>>>
>>> Discussions with fake identities are futile.
>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
>>
>> Before and after Covid I have no intention to talk to masked and
>> anonymous people.
>>
>
> Well why don't you STFU then?
> You have no way of knowing who here is using their real name, or even if
> they have a real name. Many people have more than one name they commonly
> use.
>
> As for publishing a real email address, you must be bonkers. I have
> enough spam as it is.

Just to add a data point to this more and more ridiculous off-topic meta
discussion, for Usenet purpose only, email address in my From: header,
as well as in my .signature, is quite real and working. I cannot
remember the last time, if ever at all, I received spam email at that
address. Lucky? Maybe.

--
chrispam1@me.com is a filtered spam magnet. Email replies may be lost.
You're better off replying to this newsgroup.

On 2023-08-12 11:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 12/08/2023 10:10, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 12.08.23 um 09:43 schrieb Richard Kettlewell:
>
>>> At any rate, chatter about the longevity characteristics of storage
>>> devices seems on topic here to me.
>>
>> This is a general hardware question and not of any relevance to Linux in
>> particular.
>>
> If you look at the headers, assuming you can read, you will see that its
> cross posted to comp.sys.raspberry-pi, and since all PIs other than the
> Pico run off primarily an SD card, and primarily run Linux, it is of
> extreme relevance to them.
>
> It also touches on aspects of the Linux operating system - its logging,
> and its file system behaviour, and its file cacheing, that are of
> considerable interest to people who may not appreciate how deeply these
> affect its performance.

Absolutely.

>
> Of course if you simply want to gaze at a glass terminal and pretend you
> are back in the days of a PDP11, it's of no interest to you at all.
>
> But don't judge everyone else by your own standards
>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 12/08/2023 12:22, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 12.08.23 um 12:48 schrieb Pancho:
>> On 12/08/2023 11:46, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 12.08.23 um 12:41 schrieb Jörg Lorenz:
>>>> Am 12.08.23 um 12:26 schrieb Pancho:
>>>>> Looking at previous postings, it seems about average "on topic" for
>>>>> comp.os.linux.misc, it is 100% on topic for comp.sys.raspberry-pi.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm interested.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you want to criticise, there is loads of other shit that we discuss
>>>>> that isn't on topic.
>>>>
>>>> Discussions with fake identities are futile.
>>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
>>>
>>> Before and after Covid I have no intention to talk to masked and
>>> anonymous people.
>>>
>>
>> Why are you talking to me?
>
> Try to find out yourself.
>
I don't feel it would be worth ones while.
--
It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
for the voice of the kingdom.

Jonathan Swift

Am 12.08.23 um 13:23 schrieb David W. Hodgins:
> Trying to police a newsgroup that is not moderated will not work.

Sure. I made my point clear in the first answer to the OP.
But so many users thought they had to add something meaningful.

Case is closed for me now and the OP is (again) in my killfile. I will
always react to anonymous and impolite wisenheimers the way they deserve
in my opinion.

> If you don't like the discussion filter it out of your feed, either by
> poster, or by thread. Complaining will not stop it and just adds to the
> noise, or gets your articles filtered out by others.

What I observe since I participate in the usenet Anglosaxons often weigh
free speech higher than a minimum standard of decency and politeness
that helps to increase their credibility.

> That's how usenet works.

Believe me, after 22 years in the global usenet I know how it works.
Unmoderated Usenet is much more beneficial to all of us if the regulars
are very disciplined.

--
Alea iacta est

On 8/12/23 03:48, Pancho wrote:
> On 12/08/2023 11:46, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 12.08.23 um 12:41 schrieb Jörg Lorenz:
>>> Am 12.08.23 um 12:26 schrieb Pancho:
>>>> Looking at previous postings, it seems about average "on topic" for
>>>> comp.os.linux.misc, it is 100% on topic for comp.sys.raspberry-pi.
>>>>
>>>> I'm interested.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to criticise, there is loads of other shit that we discuss
>>>> that isn't on topic.
>>>
>>> Discussions with fake identities are futile.
>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
>>
>> Before and after Covid I have no intention to talk to masked and
>> anonymous people.
>>
>
> Why are you talking to me?

He wants to spread his ideas. Some are very bad ideas.
For example there was a Before Covid but there is no After
Covid. 300-400 US citizens are dying prematurely from
Covid each week. I started working on my 87th year yesterday
and wear filter masks in many situations because you do not
know what is in the air in crowds any longer.

Surprise the next Plague is here but it is the one
the Federal Government is treating as over.

And people wearing masks may not be anonymous but are
trying to protect others from their own infectious exhalations.

bliss - Dell E6540- PCLinux 2023.07- Linux 6.4.8- KDE/Plasma 5.27.7

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/08/2023 22:33, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 11.08.23 um 23:07 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>> Oh? You think that unsolicited information about Linux and
>>> rasberry Pis is spam, in linux and raspberry Pi newsgroups? What
>>> on earth do you think that spam acrually IS?
>>
>> Postings from anonymous Trolls with fake identities.
>>
> No-one could possibly be called Jörg Lorenz.

Jörg earned a permanent position in my kill file by being a complete
arsehole. This entire meta discussion indicates that the mentally
disturbed individual behind the nym remains just as much an arsehole
now as then.

Best to just killfile it and more along.

On 12/08/2023 15:29, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> What I observe since I participate in the usenet Anglosaxons often weigh
> free speech higher than a minimum standard of decency and politeness
> that helps to increase their credibility.
>
What a pompous prick.

--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

On 12/08/2023 16:08, Rich wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 11/08/2023 22:33, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 11.08.23 um 23:07 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>>> Oh? You think that unsolicited information about Linux and
>>>> rasberry Pis is spam, in linux and raspberry Pi newsgroups? What
>>>> on earth do you think that spam acrually IS?
>>>
>>> Postings from anonymous Trolls with fake identities.
>>>
>> No-one could possibly be called Jörg Lorenz.
>
> Jörg earned a permanent position in my kill file by being a complete
> arsehole. This entire meta discussion indicates that the mentally
> disturbed individual behind the nym remains just as much an arsehole
> now as then.
>
> Best to just killfile it and more along.

One investigates to see if there is any sanity behind the mask. Then
moves on. There is none.

--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

Am 12.08.23 um 16:51 schrieb Bobbie Sellers:
> He wants to spread his ideas. Some are very bad ideas. For example there
> was a Before Covid but there is no After Covid. 300-400 US citizens are
> dying prematurely from Covid each week.

Much less than from the pollution by cars.
Your opinion I do not share.

--
Alea iacta est

On 12/08/23 11:10, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 12.08.23 um 09:43 schrieb Richard Kettlewell:
>> Pancho <Pancho.Jones@Proton.Me> writes:
>>> On 8/11/23 22:33, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>> Am 11.08.23 um 23:07 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>>>> Oh? You think that unsolicited information about Linux and rasberry
>>>>> Pis is spam, in linux and raspberry Pi newsgroups? What on earth do
>>>>> you think that spam acrually IS?
>>>> Postings from anonymous Trolls with fake identities.
>>>
>>> When is an identity real, and when is it fake?
>>>
>>> Surely it is only fake if it is pretending to be someone, or
>>> something, it is not.
>>
>> TNP’s been consistently posting under the same identity since, hmm, the
>> 1990s I think? I think I’d call it a nom de plume.
>>
>> At any rate, chatter about the longevity characteristics of storage
>> devices seems on topic here to me.
>
> This is a general hardware question and not of any relevance to Linux in
> particular.
I completely disagree, since he, after a technical
discussion (to prove the conclusions), went on to give
useful advices specific to Linux, i.g. the one about
"noatime" mount option, and the stuff about logging on a ram
disk.
You seem to be polemising for misterious reasons

>
--
1) Resistere, resistere, resistere.
2) Se tutti pagano le tasse, le tasse le pagano tutti
MarioCCCP

In comp.os.linux.misc 23k.304 <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote:
> In any case, SDs are "smart" devices, they have a
> controller to manage various needs. They are not
> just "stupid" memory space even though they try
> to *appear* as such to the user.
>
> A few of my applications involve like a DECADE
> of reliability. As such the hidden tricks of SDs
> becomes relevant (as do memory leaks).

At the point where you _need_ something to work for a decade, it's
probably worth looking at industrial SD cards rather than
off-the-shelf ones. These are commonly characterised by using SLC
flash, which trades storage capacity for more write cycles.

NAND flash types:
https://www.kingston.com/en/blog/pc-performance/difference-between-slc-mlc-tlc-3d-nand

The datasheet for this SLC SD card describes the controller's
reliability features (including wear levelling):
https://docs.rs-online.com/29d1/0900766b815d5fe1.pdf
(pages 11 & 12)

Here's sales info from another industrial SD card manufacturer, who
elsewhere also advertise SD cards with an "advanced wear levelling
algorithm":
https://www.atpinc.com/blog/industrial-sd-cards-factors-requirements-to-consider

I'm not sure whether the industrial SD card controllers really do
much more for increasing longevity in a read-only application
though.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On 13/08/2023 01:40, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

> At the point where you _need_ something to work for a decade, it's
> probably worth looking at industrial SD cards rather than
> off-the-shelf ones. These are commonly characterised by using SLC
> flash, which trades storage capacity for more write cycles.
>
> NAND flash types:
> https://www.kingston.com/en/blog/pc-performance/difference-between-slc-mlc-tlc-3d-nand
>
> The datasheet for this SLC SD card describes the controller's
> reliability features (including wear levelling):
> https://docs.rs-online.com/29d1/0900766b815d5fe1.pdf
> (pages 11 & 12)
>
> Here's sales info from another industrial SD card manufacturer, who
> elsewhere also advertise SD cards with an "advanced wear levelling
> algorithm":
> https://www.atpinc.com/blog/industrial-sd-cards-factors-requirements-to-consider
>
> I'm not sure whether the industrial SD card controllers really do
> much more for increasing longevity in a read-only application
> though.
>

Indeed. It does seem that with the price of computing power falling so
massively, there is little reason *not* to add wear levelling to SD
cards. Which ultimately renders them as reliable as any other NAND based
flash device.

My interest is, as always, to understand just enough to get the job
done, which in this case means I want about 10-15 years of reliable
operation on a 24x7 basis.

Having noted that in normal operation as far as I have built it, the
unit is not accessing its SD card AT ALL apart from a daily write to
some logs, I think that there I will stop.

There happens to be a sufficiency of RAM to regard the SD card
essentially as EAROM.

That will do nicely.

--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Doing the research reveals  the true case about wear on flash memory
> style devices and that is that substantially reads do *not* damage the
> cells at all, at least no more than reading, say, DRAM. It is block
> erases and writes that do a

Hence the primary metric for SSD longevity is TBW (terabytes written).

On 8/12/23 8:40 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.misc 23k.304 <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote:
>> In any case, SDs are "smart" devices, they have a
>> controller to manage various needs. They are not
>> just "stupid" memory space even though they try
>> to *appear* as such to the user.
>>
>> A few of my applications involve like a DECADE
>> of reliability. As such the hidden tricks of SDs
>> becomes relevant (as do memory leaks).
>
> At the point where you _need_ something to work for a decade, it's
> probably worth looking at industrial SD cards rather than
> off-the-shelf ones. These are commonly characterised by using SLC
> flash, which trades storage capacity for more write cycles.

Those are pretty good. However within a certain range
I still rec FRAM. It's REALLY good and you can get I2C
or SPI interface. Capacity, alas, is a bit limited. But,
if your app requires keeping track of peak figures,
current state and such ... things that ARE going to change
a fair bit but MUST be remembered between reboots .......
if you want a decade you don't use SD or on-chip flash.

> NAND flash types:
> https://www.kingston.com/en/blog/pc-performance/difference-between-slc-mlc-tlc-3d-nand
>
> The datasheet for this SLC SD card describes the controller's
> reliability features (including wear levelling):
> https://docs.rs-online.com/29d1/0900766b815d5fe1.pdf
> (pages 11 & 12)
>
> Here's sales info from another industrial SD card manufacturer, who
> elsewhere also advertise SD cards with an "advanced wear levelling
> algorithm":
> https://www.atpinc.com/blog/industrial-sd-cards-factors-requirements-to-consider
>
> I'm not sure whether the industrial SD card controllers really do
> much more for increasing longevity in a read-only application
> though.

Well, as mentioned, there may be "sneak" writes of
various kinds. Those who make distros for PIs and
such TRY to shift everything off into RAM but they
can MISS stuff, or discount "lesser" stresses on
SD. The focus of such distros is still aimed more
at "hobbyists" than "industrial" and they make
judgements accordingly.

On 8/13/23 3:33 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 13/08/2023 01:40, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>
>> At the point where you _need_ something to work for a decade, it's
>> probably worth looking at industrial SD cards rather than
>> off-the-shelf ones. These are commonly characterised by using SLC
>> flash, which trades storage capacity for more write cycles.
>>
>> NAND flash types:
>> https://www.kingston.com/en/blog/pc-performance/difference-between-slc-mlc-tlc-3d-nand
>>
>>
>> The datasheet for this SLC SD card describes the controller's
>> reliability features (including wear levelling):
>> https://docs.rs-online.com/29d1/0900766b815d5fe1.pdf
>> (pages 11 & 12)
>>
>> Here's sales info from another industrial SD card manufacturer, who
>> elsewhere also advertise SD cards with an "advanced wear levelling
>> algorithm":
>> https://www.atpinc.com/blog/industrial-sd-cards-factors-requirements-to-consider
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure whether the industrial SD card controllers really do
>> much more for increasing longevity in a read-only application
>> though.
>>
>
> Indeed. It does seem that with the price of computing power falling so
> massively, there is little reason *not* to add wear levelling to SD
> cards. Which ultimately renders them as reliable as any other NAND based
> flash device.
>
> My interest is, as always, to understand just enough to get the job
> done, which in this case means I want about 10-15 years of reliable
> operation on a 24x7 basis.
>
> Having noted that in normal operation as far as I have built it, the
> unit is not accessing its SD card AT ALL apart from a daily write to
> some logs, I think that there I will stop.
>
> There happens to be a sufficiency of RAM to regard the SD card
> essentially as EAROM.
>
> That will do nicely.

I wrote a multi-channel environmental monitor for "field"
use a few years ago. It took 12 samples per hour. Does not
sound like much, but it adds up. The device also HAD to
store a lot of high/low and random params which could
change every sample.

For that I chose I2C FRAM. No wait states, effectively
unlimited re-writes. Better than SD or on-chip EEPROM.

This is NOT a solution for jamming an entire OS into
unless it's DOS 2.x but you (and hopefully the distro
writers) do your best to shift all the OS stuff into
RAM and kinda hope for the best. The params in the FRAM
take care of reboots, save "the state".

In comp.sys.raspberry-pi Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 12.08.23 um 11:55 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>> On 12/08/2023 10:10, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 12.08.23 um 09:43 schrieb Richard Kettlewell:
>>
>>>> At any rate, chatter about the longevity characteristics of storage
>>>> devices seems on topic here to me.
>>>
>>> This is a general hardware question and not of any relevance to Linux in
>>> particular.
>>>
>> If you look at the headers, assuming you can read, you will see that its
>> cross posted to comp.sys.raspberry-pi,
>
> comp.os.linux.misc
>
> Stop this X-posting! Get it?

The horse is dead. Quit beating it. If you find a topic annoying, killfile
it. (You do know how to use your newsreader's killfile facility, right?)

FWIW, I find you more annoying than this topic, so...

** PLONK ***

--
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?