Or will it keep IE11 untouched?

Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
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Ant wrote:
> Or will it keep IE11 untouched?
>
> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)

MSEdge for Windows 7 is Chromium with Microsoft tweaks.

But, it is not an exact replacement for IE11.
One example of a feature it doesn't have, is BHO support.
(Yeah, it took me a while to remember the name of
the damn things, that's how much I use them.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browser_Helper_Object

"BHOs are still supported as of Windows 10, through
Internet Explorer 11, while BHOs are not supported
in the default web browser Microsoft Edge."

Consequently, IE11 will be kept.

Even if there is a pressing need to "make Internet Explorer
disappear", there is an mshtml engine in the same folder
that lives on. It is needed for various support tasks.
While ChromEdge could be pressed into such service, it
would need tweaks to make it into an "exact" substitute,
since the way Microsoft does things, there are always "quirks".

So again, not much incentive to be paving over things,
if it means having to do too much extra design work.
Better to just leave it running in parallel with IE11.

Paul

Ant graced us with on 5/17/2021 10:29 PM:
> Or will it keep IE11 untouched?
>
> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)

Both IE11 and Edge exist on my Win7 64bit system. Even though I seldom
use either, I need IE11 to render my saved *.mht web pages since Edge
won't render them. Edge saves its own version as *.mhtml.

--
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On Tue, 18 May 2021 at 00:40:05, Sailfish
<NIXCAPSsailfish@NIXCAPSunforgettable.com> wrote (my responses usually
follow points raised):
>Ant graced us with on 5/17/2021 10:29 PM:
>> Or will it keep IE11 untouched?
>> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
>
>Both IE11 and Edge exist on my Win7 64bit system. Even though I seldom
>use either, I need IE11 to render my saved *.mht web pages since Edge
>won't render them. Edge saves its own version as *.mhtml.
>
Don't lots of things still use IE drawing capabilities (such as Windows
Explorer, and therefore all the Setting[s] windows)? They did,
allegedly, up to at least Windows 7.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I don't like that word [atheist]; it implies that there's a god not to believe
in - Eric Idle, quoted in RT 2016/12/10-16

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote

| Don't lots of things still use IE drawing capabilities (such as Windows
| Explorer, and therefore all the Setting[s] windows)? They did,
| allegedly, up to at least Windows 7.

I'm not aware of that. Active Desktop is long gone. Maybe
you meant the skins, like Aero in Win7? I don't think that
involves IE, but I'm not certain.

I think the basic deal is that MS pushed IE hard for years.
ActiveX, VBScript in webpages, BHOs, browser extensions,
HTAs, MIME filters... and I'm sure I'm forgetting several things.
They had to jettison all that in order to have their browser
accepted in a world that was becoming standardized. But it
was still deeply tied into the system.

The original idea was to make IE part of Windows, which was
a brilliant strategy for monopoly control, as well as providing
a number of brilliant tools. ActiveX left Netscape in the dust
by turning webpages into software. Later, HTAs became a way
to write simple software as a local webpage. It's brilliant stuff.
I keep about 10 of them on my desktop that I've written for
various purposes.

IE11 is still capable of VBScript and other IE functionality,
but if I remember correctly it must be enabled on a per-domain
basis. Original Edge stripped all of that out. Chrome Edge is
entirely different. I know that in part because I had to adjust
my website. It uses VBS for older versions of IE and uses no
other script. When they came out with Edge I had to take a
3-prong approach: Visit with IE5-10 or any other browser, the
pages work fine. IE gets one version. Other browsers get another.
Visit with IE11 and you see a message that you'll need to enable
IE functionality. Visit with Edge and you see a message that
Edge is just broken IE so therefore it's not supported. (Chrome
Edge solved that problem. I just treat it like all other non-IE
browsers. It's up to MS now to keep supporting standards.)

In any case, they can't realistically drop this stuff. Just
as they can't drop C++, VB, .Net, COM, etc. Corporate
customers make their own software using MS programming tools,
HTAs, etc. MS have always pushed that and have always
provided good tools. If they drop support for such tools it
would be an unforgiveable betrayal. Suddenly those companies
would have no reason to stay with Windows.

On Tue, 18 May 2021 at 08:24:38, Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote
>
>| Don't lots of things still use IE drawing capabilities (such as Windows
>| Explorer, and therefore all the Setting[s] windows)? They did,
>| allegedly, up to at least Windows 7.
>
> I'm not aware of that. Active Desktop is long gone. Maybe
>you meant the skins, like Aero in Win7? I don't think that
>involves IE, but I'm not certain.

I thought it was either you or VLH who told us that IE routines were (up
to 7, anyway) used to draw ordinary Explorer panes - not the fancy
skins, but its basic functionality. Just as a drawing tool ...
>
> I think the basic deal is that MS pushed IE hard for years.
>ActiveX, VBScript in webpages, BHOs, browser extensions,
>HTAs, MIME filters... and I'm sure I'm forgetting several things.

.... not browser functionality.
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If something works, thank an engineer. (Reported seen on a bumper sticker.)

Sailfish <NIXCAPSsailfish@nixcapsunforgettable.com> wrote:
> Ant graced us with on 5/17/2021 10:29 PM:
> > Or will it keep IE11 untouched?
> >
> > Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
>
> Both IE11 and Edge exist on my Win7 64bit system. Even though I seldom
> use either, I need IE11 to render my saved *.mht web pages since Edge
> won't render them. Edge saves its own version as *.mhtml.

Have you tried to rename an IE *.mht web page to *.mhtml and see if
Edge will/can render that?

I had the same issue with some other browser(s) - I forgot which ones
- and renaming solved the problem.

(Of course that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep IE11, just in case.)

"Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> on Tue, 18 May 2021 08:24:38
-0400 typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
>
> In any case, they can't realistically drop this stuff. Just
>as they can't drop C++, VB, .Net, COM, etc. Corporate
>customers make their own software using MS programming tools,
>HTAs, etc. MS have always pushed that and have always
>provided good tools. If they drop support for such tools it
>would be an unforgiveable betrayal. Suddenly those companies
>would have no reason to stay with Windows.

Other than inertia and force of habit.

I just heard from a small outfit which is switching accounting
software because the old package 'mostly worked', but now they are
hiring a new accountant. New person, new software.
>
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

J. P. Gilliver (John) graced us with on 5/18/2021 12:52 AM:
> On Tue, 18 May 2021 at 00:40:05, Sailfish
> <NIXCAPSsailfish@NIXCAPSunforgettable.com> wrote (my responses usually
> follow points raised):
>> Ant graced us with on 5/17/2021 10:29 PM:
>>> Or will it keep IE11 untouched?
>>> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
>>
>> Both IE11 and Edge exist on my Win7 64bit system. Even though I seldom
>> use either, I need IE11 to render my saved *.mht web pages since Edge
>> won't render them. Edge saves its own version as *.mhtml.
>>
> Don't lots of things still use IE drawing capabilities (such as Windows
> Explorer, and therefore all the Setting[s] windows)? They did,
> allegedly, up to at least Windows 7.

I'm not aware of IE (trident) being used for and desktop rendering but
is used for things like ActiveX and such. In fact, when I recently did a
Win7 re-install (long story) MS initially didn't install IE 11
(Although, it did install IE 10) and I uninstalled IE 10 before
installing IE 11 and the OS worked okay without IE. I eventually
installed IE 11 and Edge as mentioned above.

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

Frank Slootweg graced us with on 5/18/2021 6:17 AM:
> Sailfish <NIXCAPSsailfish@nixcapsunforgettable.com> wrote:
>> Ant graced us with on 5/17/2021 10:29 PM:
>>> Or will it keep IE11 untouched?
>>>
>>> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
>> Both IE11 and Edge exist on my Win7 64bit system. Even though I seldom
>> use either, I need IE11 to render my saved *.mht web pages since Edge
>> won't render them. Edge saves its own version as *.mhtml.
>
> Have you tried to rename an IE *.mht web page to *.mhtml and see if
> Edge will/can render that?
>
> I had the same issue with some other browser(s) - I forgot which ones
> - and renaming solved the problem.
>
> (Of course that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep IE11, just in case.)

Actually, my previous statement was incorrect. It had been so long since
I ran the test that I forgot the details. Specifically, I wanted to use
Edge to Save As *.mht but it only offered .mhtml. However, Edge does
render existing .mht files.

The other reason I have kept IE11 is that my Lorex surveillance system
uses an ActiveX widget to display the video panes in the browser. Chrome
also supports it be, you know, Google... and all. Lorex has their own
separate program but it's a bit more resource-intensive for most of my
viewing needs.

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

On Tue, 18 May 2021 08:52:08 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>>
> Don't lots of things still use IE drawing capabilities (such as Windows
> Explorer, and therefore all the Setting[s] windows)? They did,
> allegedly, up to at least Windows 7.

That's the Shell component. Not the (embedded) MSIE browser component.

Since Windows Vista, the Shell no longer use embedded MSIE component, where
if we type in a .htm file into an (file) Explorer address bar, the HTML file
will be opened in a separate MSIE process (using IEXPLORE.EXE).

In Windows XP/2003 and older, the HTML file will be opened with the Explorer
window (and process) itself, so it uses the embedded MSIE component.

However, the change is not originated from the OS itself, but it's from MSIE
v7+ whose software package includes update to the Shell component (i.e.
SHELL32.DLL). So in Windows XP/2003, after MSIE is updated from v6 to v7+,
Explorer no longer open HTML file in its own window and process. It will
open it in a separate MSIE window & process.

On Tue, 18 May 2021 10:39:03 -0700, Sailfish wrote:
> J. P. Gilliver (John) graced us with on 5/18/2021 12:52 AM:
>> On Tue, 18 May 2021 at 00:40:05, Sailfish
>> <NIXCAPSsailfish@NIXCAPSunforgettable.com> wrote (my responses usually
>> follow points raised):
>>> Ant graced us with on 5/17/2021 10:29 PM:
>>>> Or will it keep IE11 untouched?
>>>> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
>>>
>>> Both IE11 and Edge exist on my Win7 64bit system. Even though I seldom
>>> use either, I need IE11 to render my saved *.mht web pages since Edge
>>> won't render them. Edge saves its own version as *.mhtml.
>>>
>> Don't lots of things still use IE drawing capabilities (such as Windows
>> Explorer, and therefore all the Setting[s] windows)? They did,
>> allegedly, up to at least Windows 7.
>
> I'm not aware of IE (trident) being used for and desktop rendering but
> is used for things like ActiveX and such. In fact, when I recently did a
> Win7 re-install (long story) MS initially didn't install IE 11
> (Although, it did install IE 10) and I uninstalled IE 10 before
> installing IE 11 and the OS worked okay without IE. I eventually
> installed IE 11 and Edge as mentioned above.

They did with MSIE v4's Active Desktop back in Windows 95 era. We can have
the desktop shows a HTML page along with desktop icons.

JPEG based wallpaper is only possible if Active Desktop is enabled - where
it uses predefined HTML document to show the JPEG image, because the OS
still can only use BMP as the (native) wallpaper.

JJ graced us with on 5/18/2021 11:25 AM:
> On Tue, 18 May 2021 10:39:03 -0700, Sailfish wrote:
>> J. P. Gilliver (John) graced us with on 5/18/2021 12:52 AM:
>>> On Tue, 18 May 2021 at 00:40:05, Sailfish
>>> <NIXCAPSsailfish@NIXCAPSunforgettable.com> wrote (my responses usually
>>> follow points raised):
>>>> Ant graced us with on 5/17/2021 10:29 PM:
>>>>> Or will it keep IE11 untouched?
>>>>> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
>>>> Both IE11 and Edge exist on my Win7 64bit system. Even though I seldom
>>>> use either, I need IE11 to render my saved *.mht web pages since Edge
>>>> won't render them. Edge saves its own version as *.mhtml.
>>>>
>>> Don't lots of things still use IE drawing capabilities (such as Windows
>>> Explorer, and therefore all the Setting[s] windows)? They did,
>>> allegedly, up to at least Windows 7.
>> I'm not aware of IE (trident) being used for and desktop rendering but
>> is used for things like ActiveX and such. In fact, when I recently did a
>> Win7 re-install (long story) MS initially didn't install IE 11
>> (Although, it did install IE 10) and I uninstalled IE 10 before
>> installing IE 11 and the OS worked okay without IE. I eventually
>> installed IE 11 and Edge as mentioned above.
>
> They did with MSIE v4's Active Desktop back in Windows 95 era. We can have
> the desktop shows a HTML page along with desktop icons.
>
> JPEG based wallpaper is only possible if Active Desktop is enabled - where
> it uses predefined HTML document to show the JPEG image, because the OS
> still can only use BMP as the (native) wallpaper.

Yes, back in the earlier days, IE was much more part of the OS than now.
In fact, as I recall, they intentionally did that as part of their
anti-Netscape endeavors.

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote

| I thought it was either you or VLH who told us that IE routines were (up
| to 7, anyway) used to draw ordinary Explorer panes - not the fancy
| skins, but its basic functionality. Just as a drawing tool ...

We were talking about that last week. The last Active Desktop
system was ME. Up until then there was actually a browser
window in the window hierarchy of folders. The display in the
window was a webpage. The files/folders were a listview window
on that webpage.

After ME there's still a lot of connection between IE and
Explorer, but mainly for backward compatibility. I posted some
code last week showing that you can call Microsoft's Shell COM
object and enumerate open windows, for example. It returns
all open folder windows and IE instances. All of them are
"InternetExplorer" objects. The document object for the IE
windows is an IE.window.document. For folders it's a
ShellFolderView. But both are accessed as document objects.
Nutty stuff. I expect it still works in Win10.

Same with Shell extensions. I suspect an Explorer Bar is still
getting events from open IE instances in Win10. But presumably
that's broken with Chrome Edge.

And JJ mentioned an odd behavior I wasn't aware of on XP:
If you enter a webpage file path in an Explorer window it will
open within the folder window. On the other hand, why would
anyone ever do that? I've never done it in my life, except to
test JJ's explanation. I find a ZIP file will work the same way,
even though I don't use Windows ZIP functionality. So that's
really just Microsoft's half-baked "integration". There hasn't
actually been an IE window in folders since ME.

Ant wrote:
> Or will it keep IE11 untouched?
>
> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)

ChromEdge has had impersonation added to it.
It can impersonate Classic MSEdge or it can impersonate IE11.

edge://flags/#edge-internet-explorer-integration

must be set to 'IE Mode'

So technically, now they can do it. And Rene discovered
the evidence of this on Windows 10, in a question today.
The "About:" in Windows 10 for IE11 is "different", and
that's how you can tell they've messed IE11 about.

Paul

"Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote

| ChromEdge has had impersonation added to it.
| It can impersonate Classic MSEdge or it can impersonate IE11.
| | edge://flags/#edge-internet-explorer-integration
| | must be set to 'IE Mode'
|

Hard to believe. ActiveX? VBScript? I would guess that
if it can do any more than imitate page layout styles then
it must be just loading IE11 into an Edge window. In other
words, the "chrome" or frame would look like Edge, but it
would really be IE impersonating Edge rather than Edge
impersonating IE.

I'd be curious to see what the window hierarchy looks
like, what userAgent it uses, and how it handles a page
designed for IE. On the other hand, I wouldn't install either
Edge on my Win7 boxes and haven't even noticed what's
on my Win10 box. They all get Mozilla browsers exclusively.
And it's not really relevant to webmasters. So I wonder
in what scenario this would make any difference to anyone.

Mayayana graced us with on 5/19/2021 5:47 AM:
> "Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote
>
> | ChromEdge has had impersonation added to it.
> | It can impersonate Classic MSEdge or it can impersonate IE11.
> |
> | edge://flags/#edge-internet-explorer-integration
> |
> | must be set to 'IE Mode'
> |
>
> Hard to believe. ActiveX? VBScript? I would guess that
> if it can do any more than imitate page layout styles then
> it must be just loading IE11 into an Edge window. In other
> words, the "chrome" or frame would look like Edge, but it
> would really be IE impersonating Edge rather than Edge
> impersonating IE.
>
REF:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/deploy/microsoft-edge-faq

[excerpt quote=\"
__Does Microsoft Edge support ActiveX controls or BHOs like Silverlight
or Java__?

No, Microsoft Edge doesn't support ActiveX controls and Browser Helper
Objects (BHOs) like Silverlight or Java. If you're running web apps that
use ActiveX controls, x-ua-compatible headers, or legacy document modes,
you need to keep running them in Internet Explorer 11. Internet Explorer
11 offers additional security, manageability, performance, backward
compatibility, and standards support.
\" /]

IE Mode may still be available for Enterprise versions but I don't
believe it is allowed for the conssumer version.

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

Sailfish wrote:
> Mayayana graced us with on 5/19/2021 5:47 AM:
>> "Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote
>>
>> | ChromEdge has had impersonation added to it.
>> | It can impersonate Classic MSEdge or it can impersonate IE11.
>> |
>> | edge://flags/#edge-internet-explorer-integration
>> |
>> | must be set to 'IE Mode'
>> |
>>
>> Hard to believe. ActiveX? VBScript? I would guess that
>> if it can do any more than imitate page layout styles then
>> it must be just loading IE11 into an Edge window. In other
>> words, the "chrome" or frame would look like Edge, but it
>> would really be IE impersonating Edge rather than Edge
>> impersonating IE.
>>
> REF:
> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/deploy/microsoft-edge-faq
>
> [excerpt quote=\"
> __Does Microsoft Edge support ActiveX controls or BHOs like Silverlight
> or Java__?
>
> No, Microsoft Edge doesn't support ActiveX controls and Browser Helper
> Objects (BHOs) like Silverlight or Java. If you're running web apps that
> use ActiveX controls, x-ua-compatible headers, or legacy document modes,
> you need to keep running them in Internet Explorer 11. Internet Explorer
> 11 offers additional security, manageability, performance, backward
> compatibility, and standards support.
> \" /]
>
> IE Mode may still be available for Enterprise versions but I don't
> believe it is allowed for the conssumer version.
>

Rene found that the About: page for IE11 on Windows 10
had changed. And it suggests that on Windows 10, that
they've pulled a switcherooo somehow. This picture is of Pro.

https://i.postimg.cc/JhHBXTgr/about-20h2.gif

Paul