The "problem" with Linux is there is no "Genius bar" or "Best Buy" to
visit if there is a problem. No "Geek Squad".

If you aren't your own systems guru, then you know someone
that can come by and work on your system, or that you can
take your system to get fixed.

I end up being help for family and friends with Windows problems.
For example, Dad and his wife fight with their Windows 10
laptop all the time, thanks to Windows 10. They're stuck with
it, because half of their life is in MS Access databases.

They are locked-in.

This is also the case in businesses. Before companies had dedicated
IT staffs, there was the "departmental guru model": someone in the
department would get the training to help everybody else out. But
there was always someone to turn to.

Linux, you either need to learn something -- not as much
nowadays, but still, you need to know how to (say) boot a USB drive,
or ask a _good_ question in a support forum.

Or, you know someone who can help; or buy turnkey from a vendor
that has very good _Linux_ tech support.

So, my point: Until there is more ubiquitous support for Linux
desktops, there won't be as many Linux desktop systems sold. But
don't be fooled: that doesn't mean Linux isn't successful, just that
its success with desktops is narrowed-down to certain
types of users.

--
-v

On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 06:16:55 -0000 (UTC), vallor wrote:

> The "problem" with Linux is there is no "Genius bar" or "Best Buy" to
> visit if there is a problem. No "Geek Squad".

Set up your own. And charge for it.

On 2024-03-21, vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:
> The "problem" with Linux is there is no "Genius bar" or "Best Buy" to
> visit if there is a problem. No "Geek Squad".
>
> If you aren't your own systems guru, then you know someone
> that can come by and work on your system, or that you can
> take your system to get fixed.
>
> I end up being help for family and friends with Windows problems.
> For example, Dad and his wife fight with their Windows 10
> laptop all the time, thanks to Windows 10. They're stuck with
> it, because half of their life is in MS Access databases.
>
> They are locked-in.
>
> This is also the case in businesses. Before companies had dedicated
> IT staffs, there was the "departmental guru model": someone in the
> department would get the training to help everybody else out. But
> there was always someone to turn to.
>
> Linux, you either need to learn something -- not as much
> nowadays, but still, you need to know how to (say) boot a USB drive,
> or ask a _good_ question in a support forum.
>
> Or, you know someone who can help; or buy turnkey from a vendor
> that has very good _Linux_ tech support.
>
> So, my point: Until there is more ubiquitous support for Linux
> desktops, there won't be as many Linux desktop systems sold. But
> don't be fooled: that doesn't mean Linux isn't successful, just that
> its success with desktops is narrowed-down to certain
> types of users.

There are help forums, which I suppose won't be much worse than any
"geek squad". I learned on my own, but I had prior experience learning
the ins and outs of DOS and Windows and Commodore 64's, so
troubleshooting and figuring these things out was something I could
do. I got a friend or two, or three into Linux and they all managed
with surprisingly little help for me, but again, these were users who
liked to fiddle around with computers too.

I installed it on my wifes laptop, and so far, the only question I got
was how to get the old Apple II "Carmen SanDiego" game running! My
wife does NOT know computers, but she's been using the system for over
a year with no issue. Her needs are admittedly simple.

Support lines may help, but the best support is someone you know you
can ask questions, which makes the best way to get people into Linux,
is to promote it to people you think may be interest AND are willing
to help. I'm going to install it on another acquaintences machine, as
he is interested in moving away from Microsoft.

To be honest though, the kind of person who isn't interested in
solving problems, is probably not going to get much out of Linux.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 06:20 this Thursday (GMT):
> On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 06:16:55 -0000 (UTC), vallor wrote:
>
>> The "problem" with Linux is there is no "Genius bar" or "Best Buy" to
>> visit if there is a problem. No "Geek Squad".
>
> Set up your own. And charge for it.

Maybe dont charge people for it.. that would really make Linux fans
angry.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:

>The "problem" with Linux is there is no "Genius bar" or "Best Buy" to
>visit if there is a problem. No "Geek Squad".
>
>If you aren't your own systems guru, then you know someone
>that can come by and work on your system, or that you can
>take your system to get fixed.

In other words, even as a Mint user, I'm still relying on myself to
handle issues that arise, I built my computer, I'm not just a lamer
using an easy distro as Russell's drab, boring Gentoo machine
supposedly makes it out to be.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 08:47:25 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:

> To be honest though, the kind of person who isn't interested in solving
> problems, is probably not going to get much out of Linux.

Windows is starting to require way too much in the form of “solving
problems”. This one
<https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/12/microsoft_update_for_bitlocker_vuln/>,
where you actually have to resort to typing at the *command line*,
really takes the cake.

That’s why they say, Windows is a great OS--if your time is worth
nothing.

On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 06:16:55 -0000 (UTC), vallor wrote:

> This is also the case in businesses. Before companies had dedicated IT
> staffs, there was the "departmental guru model": someone in the
> department would get the training to help everybody else out. But there
> was always someone to turn to.

When the police started putting laptops in the cars rather than primitive
terminals there was one younger cop on the force who knew his way around.
You'd hear them on the radio 'Can you meet me at Ruby's on your break and
teach me how this damn thing works?'

Trivia: One of the gunfights in the Yellowstone series was filmed at
Ruby's. In real life that would be the worst possible place in town to
have a gunfight since it's the cops favorite diner.

On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 06:20:23 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 06:16:55 -0000 (UTC), vallor wrote:
>
>> The "problem" with Linux is there is no "Genius bar" or "Best Buy" to
>> visit if there is a problem. No "Geek Squad".
>
> Set up your own. And charge for it.

There was a Linux Users Group in town about 10 years ago that would have
been happy to help. It petered out because everyone in the group was a
Linux user already and there wasn't that much to talk about. It was sort
of like COLA without DFS.

On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 08:47:25 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:

> Support lines may help, but the best support is someone you know you can
> ask questions, which makes the best way to get people into Linux, is to
> promote it to people you think may be interest AND are willing to help.
> I'm going to install it on another acquaintences machine, as he is
> interested in moving away from Microsoft.

I wonder how many support calls RHEL and the other enterprise Linux
distros get? In my experience our clients have our support people on speed
dial and wouldn't think of asking Microsoft for help even with obvious
windows problems.

On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 15:00:11 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07
<candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote in
<uthi1r$2949h$2@dont-email.me>:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 06:20 this Thursday (GMT):
>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 06:16:55 -0000 (UTC), vallor wrote:
>>
>>> The "problem" with Linux is there is no "Genius bar" or "Best Buy" to
>>> visit if there is a problem. No "Geek Squad".
>>
>> Set up your own. And charge for it.

Don't think I haven't been tempted...

>
>
> Maybe dont charge people for it.. that would really make Linux fans
> angry.

Nah, there are ways of ensuring that working with Linux users
is in the spirit of ubuntu[*].

[*] Not the distro, but the concept the distro is named after.

--
-v

rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 06:16:55 -0000 (UTC), vallor wrote:
>
>> This is also the case in businesses. Before companies had dedicated IT
>> staffs, there was the "departmental guru model": someone in the
>> department would get the training to help everybody else out. But there
>> was always someone to turn to.
>
> When the police started putting laptops in the cars rather than primitive
> terminals there was one younger cop on the force who knew his way around.
> You'd hear them on the radio 'Can you meet me at Ruby's on your break and
> teach me how this damn thing works?'
>
> Trivia: One of the gunfights in the Yellowstone series was filmed at
> Ruby's. In real life that would be the worst possible place in town to
> have a gunfight since it's the cops favorite diner.

Ruby Tuesdays? :-)

--
Good news. Ten weeks from Friday will be a pretty good day.

rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 06:20:23 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 06:16:55 -0000 (UTC), vallor wrote:
>>
>>> The "problem" with Linux is there is no "Genius bar" or "Best Buy" to
>>> visit if there is a problem. No "Geek Squad".
>>
>> Set up your own. And charge for it.
>
> There was a Linux Users Group in town about 10 years ago that would have
> been happy to help. It petered out because everyone in the group was a
> Linux user already and there wasn't that much to talk about. It was sort
> of like COLA without DFS.

What, no outreach program?

Knock knock... "Linux Witnesses, can I come in?"

--
You will be advanced socially, without any special effort on your part.

On 2024-03-22, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 08:47:25 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
>
>> Support lines may help, but the best support is someone you know you can
>> ask questions, which makes the best way to get people into Linux, is to
>> promote it to people you think may be interest AND are willing to help.
>> I'm going to install it on another acquaintences machine, as he is
>> interested in moving away from Microsoft.
>
> I wonder how many support calls RHEL and the other enterprise Linux
> distros get? In my experience our clients have our support people on speed
> dial and wouldn't think of asking Microsoft for help even with obvious
> windows problems.

Come to think of it, the only time Ive ever known somene to call
Microsoft support, may have been, *may* have been at work, where the
IT Admin might have been having trouble with the companies email
server running Microsoft Exchange. But I don't know of any home user
who has called it.

I don't think many people think of using the support, they generally
ask people they know, or to go forums.

On 2024-03-21, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 08:47:25 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
>
>> To be honest though, the kind of person who isn't interested in solving
>> problems, is probably not going to get much out of Linux.
>
> Windows is starting to require way too much in the form of “solving
> problems”. This one
><https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/12/microsoft_update_for_bitlocker_vuln/>,
> where you actually have to resort to typing at the *command line*,
> really takes the cake.
>
> That’s why they say, Windows is a great OS--if your time is worth
> nothing.

Windows problems are hard to solve, often because its hard to see what
is going on, there is little diagnostic information and the system is
opaque. With Linux, Ive generally only gotten stuck because I've
struggled to find out how the components interact (for example, one
upgrade of Fedora broke my Display Manager, LightDM, it just wouldn't
start). I eventually, somehow found it was due to a misconfigured
/etc/environment (I think). Not sure how I found that out, but it
broke something that ran on PAM which broke lightdm or other. Point
is I was able to fix it, but with Windows, at least when I used it,
the problems I had just broke the system completely.

I think baving the command line in windows to fix it is an
improvement, its better than not being able to fix things at all.

On 2024-03-22, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 2024-03-22, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 08:47:25 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
>>
>>> Support lines may help, but the best support is someone you know you can
>>> ask questions, which makes the best way to get people into Linux, is to
>>> promote it to people you think may be interest AND are willing to help.
>>> I'm going to install it on another acquaintences machine, as he is
>>> interested in moving away from Microsoft.
>>
>> I wonder how many support calls RHEL and the other enterprise Linux
>> distros get? In my experience our clients have our support people on speed
>> dial and wouldn't think of asking Microsoft for help even with obvious
>> windows problems.
>
> Come to think of it, the only time Ive ever known somene to call
> Microsoft support, may have been, *may* have been at work, where the
> IT Admin might have been having trouble with the companies email
> server running Microsoft Exchange. But I don't know of any home user
> who has called it.

Not being a Windows user, but trying to fix a friend's Windows computer that
BSOD'd, I called Microsoft support once. I was told it was Dell's problem
since it an OEM copy. So I called Dell. I was reacquainted with the "three
Rs" of Microsoft support — Reboot, reboot, reinstall."

I saved what I could with a live Linux Mint USB stick and reinstalled.

> I don't think many people think of using the support, they generally
> ask people they know, or to go forums.

Their support is useless. First you've got to explain (in detail) why it's
not your fault (or your friend's fault) that their crap OS crashed while it
was doing yet another mandatory (and unscheduled) update. Then you're
lectured about not doing regular backups (you should know their OS is
glitchy crap, after all). Then you get the "three R's" "support" and that's
why people don't use Microsoft so-called "support."

That said I enjoyed all this "fun" about 8 years ago. So apparently Windows
has gotten less crappy in the meantime. Still a convoluted mess to update,
however.

I'm very happy that I've been using Linux for about 17 years.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote at 04:31 this Friday (GMT):
> On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 15:00:11 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07
><candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote in
><uthi1r$2949h$2@dont-email.me>:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 06:20 this Thursday (GMT):
>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 06:16:55 -0000 (UTC), vallor wrote:
>>>
>>>> The "problem" with Linux is there is no "Genius bar" or "Best Buy" to
>>>> visit if there is a problem. No "Geek Squad".
>>>
>>> Set up your own. And charge for it.
>
> Don't think I haven't been tempted...

Fair, it'd probably be a lot of work.

>>
>>
>> Maybe dont charge people for it.. that would really make Linux fans
>> angry.
>
> Nah, there are ways of ensuring that working with Linux users
> is in the spirit of ubuntu[*].
>
> [*] Not the distro, but the concept the distro is named after.

I sure hope not the distro :D
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 12:33 this Friday (GMT):
> On 2024-03-22, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 08:47:25 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
>>
>>> Support lines may help, but the best support is someone you know you can
>>> ask questions, which makes the best way to get people into Linux, is to
>>> promote it to people you think may be interest AND are willing to help.
>>> I'm going to install it on another acquaintences machine, as he is
>>> interested in moving away from Microsoft.
>>
>> I wonder how many support calls RHEL and the other enterprise Linux
>> distros get? In my experience our clients have our support people on speed
>> dial and wouldn't think of asking Microsoft for help even with obvious
>> windows problems.
>
> Come to think of it, the only time Ive ever known somene to call
> Microsoft support, may have been, *may* have been at work, where the
> IT Admin might have been having trouble with the companies email
> server running Microsoft Exchange. But I don't know of any home user
> who has called it.
>
> I don't think many people think of using the support, they generally
> ask people they know, or to go forums.

Yeah, because most free supports are just bots.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 12:39 this Friday (GMT):
> On 2024-03-21, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 08:47:25 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
>>
>>> To be honest though, the kind of person who isn't interested in solving
>>> problems, is probably not going to get much out of Linux.
>>
>> Windows is starting to require way too much in the form of “solving
>> problems”. This one
>><https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/12/microsoft_update_for_bitlocker_vuln/>,
>> where you actually have to resort to typing at the *command line*,
>> really takes the cake.
>>
>> That’s why they say, Windows is a great OS--if your time is worth
>> nothing.
>
> Windows problems are hard to solve, often because its hard to see what
> is going on, there is little diagnostic information and the system is
> opaque. With Linux, Ive generally only gotten stuck because I've
> struggled to find out how the components interact (for example, one
> upgrade of Fedora broke my Display Manager, LightDM, it just wouldn't
> start). I eventually, somehow found it was due to a misconfigured
> /etc/environment (I think). Not sure how I found that out, but it
> broke something that ran on PAM which broke lightdm or other. Point
> is I was able to fix it, but with Windows, at least when I used it,
> the problems I had just broke the system completely.
>
> I think baving the command line in windows to fix it is an
> improvement, its better than not being able to fix things at all.

Or having to go to the registry.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 3/21/2024 10:55 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 06:20:23 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 06:16:55 -0000 (UTC), vallor wrote:
>>
>>> The "problem" with Linux is there is no "Genius bar" or "Best Buy" to
>>> visit if there is a problem. No "Geek Squad".
>>
>> Set up your own. And charge for it.
>
> There was a Linux Users Group in town about 10 years ago that would have
> been happy to help. It petered out because everyone in the group was a
> Linux user already and there wasn't that much to talk about. It was sort
> of like COLA without DFS.

ha!

Years ago all us "trolls" would occasionally boycott cola for a month.
We would announce it ahead of time, and it drove the pro-Linux regs
absolutely crazy, since they knew they would soon be forced to talk to
each other for the next 4 weeks. And we did it - we stuck to our
boycotts. And it got real quiet in here.

On the plus side you end up getting more done in real life.

On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 15:10:11 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> Or having to go to the registry.

That's always a joy. I was troubleshooting a problem that turned out to
be a support person finding a really old installer but it looked like the
interface was using Tls1.0 rather than the necessary Tls1.2. That led to
a trip to the registry where the various Tls protocols can be enabled or
disabled. The current recommendation is to disable 1.0 and 1.1.

On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 08:24:20 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> What, no outreach program?
>
> Knock knock... "Linux Witnesses, can I come in?"

There's an idea. It certainly is a problem. Aunt Jane might actually
prefer Linux if she knew it existed but it's like US politics. For all
most people know there's only two choices and the Greens, Libertarians,
and others don't exist as far as the popular media is concerned.

On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 08:22:28 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> Ruby Tuesdays?

No, Ruby's Cafe.

https://www.sirved.com/restaurant/missoula-montana-usa/rubys-cafe/814117/
menus

There is a Ruby's Diner chain but this is a local operation. The exposure
didn't do much. Tourists who watched Yellowstone come in, look around, and
leave without buying a meal. The price of fame.

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote at 18:04 this Friday (GMT):
> On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 15:10:11 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> Or having to go to the registry.
>
> That's always a joy. I was troubleshooting a problem that turned out to
> be a support person finding a really old installer but it looked like the
> interface was using Tls1.0 rather than the necessary Tls1.2. That led to
> a trip to the registry where the various Tls protocols can be enabled or
> disabled. The current recommendation is to disable 1.0 and 1.1.

Yeah, and some useful options end up hidden deep.. at least until a
youtube video or article comes out.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 15:10:11 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> Or having to go to the registry.

The Registry was introduced as a replacement for config files because app
developers were scattering those files all over the place. So in an effort
to tidy things up, Microsoft devised this thing called the “Registry” and
strong-armed developers into using it.

So now, they scatter their config settings all over the Registry.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

>The Registry was introduced as a replacement for config files because app
>developers were scattering those files all over the place. So in an effort
>to tidy things up, Microsoft devised this thing called the “Registry” and
>strong-armed developers into using it.
>
>So now, they scatter their config settings all over the Registry.

In Micro$oft's defense, it seems that the Registry has worked well,
despite the denigration from the anti-M$ crowd.

--
"OEMs have to pay for Windows, but Linux is free and yet not a single
OEM recommends it." - DumFSck, putting his ignorance on display