g0> I do have a better "solution" to these types of things that I did a
g0> couple years back, but its a lot of work to move it into the code so I
g0> just haven't yet. I really should do it soon though.

Please improve on the upgrade process first, g00r00! I love your work, but
there was a reason I didn't want to move to a47! PS: finally did it, and it
took a *week* to get my events working properly again...
../grumble

There's a few good reasons I chose Mystic, bud. Don't take my criticism as
insult; I literally wouldn't choose any other software.

Also, now that you (and Synchro's dev) are on the FTSC, maybe you can help with
bringing Mystic and Synchro into closer harmony. This may be the perfect
example to start with!

McDoob
SysOp, PiBBS
pibbs.sytes.net

.... I know a good tagline when I steal one!

SB> Please improve on the upgrade process first, g00r00! I love your work,
SB> but there was a reason I didn't want to move to a47! PS: finally did it,
SB> and it took a *week* to get my events working properly again...

What was the problem you had and what is the suggestion on how it can be
improved? The upgrade instructions are just a list of commands lines to run
that you can paste directly onto a command line. There really isn't anything
else to do other than that for A47. What events that come with A47 did you
have problems with?

For example this is the upgrade procedure from A47 to A48:

Run: install replace c:\mystic
Run: mutil -run packfilebases

That's it.

SB> Also, now that you (and Synchro's dev) are on the FTSC, maybe you can
SB> help with bringing Mystic and Synchro into closer harmony. This may be
SB> the perfect example to start with!

I am not sure what that means but feel free to elaborate!

.... A black cat crossing your path signifies that the animal is going somewhere

g0> SB> Also, now that you (and Synchro's dev) are on the FTSC, maybe you can
g0> SB> help with bringing Mystic and Synchro into closer harmony. This may b
g0> SB> the perfect example to start with!
g0>
g0> I am not sure what that means but feel free to elaborate!

Let me try, then...

From this McNoob's point of view, it seems like Synchro and Mystic aren't
agreeing on which format to communicate with...

I have also seen the same problems that others have brought to your attention,
regarding UTF-8 and CP437. Sometimes, messages are rendered unintelligible, and
I'm not sure who deserves the 'blame' for this...

The devs of both Mystic and Synchro have just been voted into the FTSC. I am
hoping that the two of you can solve this problem, once and for all.

Is that enough elaboration, sir? (o_O)

McDoob
SysOp, PiBBS
pibbs.sytes.net

.... I put a dollar in one of those change machines. Nothing changed.

g0> SB> Please improve on the upgrade process first, g00r00! I love your work
g0> SB> but there was a reason I didn't want to move to a47! PS: finally did
g0> SB> and it took a *week* to get my events working properly again...
g0>
g0> What was the problem you had and what is the suggestion on how it can be
g0> improved?

My problems have no relevance to the UTF-8 discussion. But, since you asked...

g0> The upgrade instructions are just a list of commands lines to
g0> run that you can paste directly onto a command line. There really isn't
g0> anything else to do other than that for A47. What events that come with
g0> A47 did you have problems with?

Um.../fidopoll vs ./mis poll? I'm still fairly certain that this was my biggest
problem.

Having said that, the changes to 'Interval' events threw me for a loop, too!
Suddenly, all off my 'Interval' events were happening every five minutes,
instead of five minutes after every hour. You didn't mention this in your
update notes. I'm not the only McNoob to be confused by this, either.

Again, I must be clear: this is intended as 'constructive' criticism, not as
insult. I wouldn't choose any other base but Mystic for PiBBS!

g0> For example this is the upgrade procedure from A47 to A48:
g0>
g0> Run: install replace c:\mystic
g0> Run: mutil -run packfilebases
g0>
g0> That's it.

Sir, I would suggest that the upgrade from a46 to a47 is not the same, at
all...You kinda broke a lot of stuff in that particular upgrade. And you've
already admitted as much. Perhaps, I am simply adding my feedback too late?

Either way, don't let me slow you down! Clearly, you are working harder than I
am! I have exactly zero alpha releases of my work.

McDoob
SysOp, PiBBS
pibbs.sytes.net

.... Users come in two types: Those who have lost data, and those who will.

g0> SB> Um.../fidopoll vs ./mis poll? I'm still fairly certain that this was
g0> SB> biggest problem.
g0>
g0> I figured this might be what you struggled with. I could have done
g0> better.

Yes, sir. That was a big surprise, but not the only one...

g0> SB> Having said that, the changes to 'Interval' events threw me for a loo
g0> SB> too! Suddenly, all off my 'Interval' events were happening every five
g0> SB> minutes, instead of five minutes after every hour. You didn't mention
g0> SB> this in your update notes. I'm not the only McNoob to be confused by
g0> SB> this, either.
g0>
g0> I can assure you there was no change to the event system which was why
g0> it was not noted.
g0>
g0> Intervals have always executed on a time-based interval (hense the
g0> name). I will paste the Interval documentation from 1.10 which was over
g0> a decade ago for confirmation of intention. Out of curiosity I also
g0> installed a stock A46 and created an Interval event of 5 minutes and it
g0> executed twice in 10 minutes as expected. I will paste those logs too.

I can assure you that there WAS, sir, again! No longer does 'Interval' respect
the 'Hour' entry! I am not the only McNoob to notice this! Please check your
work!

If others are willing, I will provide you with independent confirmation.

Or, you'll just have to take my word for it, being the only one who's willing
to piss you off, sir.

Once again, I will always choose Mystic.

McDoob
SysOp, PiBBS
pibbs.sytes.net

.... A book in the hand is worth two on the shelf!

SB> From this McNoob's point of view, it seems like Synchro and Mystic aren't
SB> agreeing on which format to communicate with...

I do have a solution for that, but I think there always is going to be some
issue with various codepages and UTF8 only because they cannot always convert
between each other.

For example a UTF8 message using cyrillic cannot convert almost any ASCII
codepage other than couple that are specifically designed for it. So when you
are in say a US DOS codepage and there is cyrillic you can't do much about it.

I do have some better translations in the pipeline but at the end of the day
you just end up with a ? ASCII instead of a UTF8 cyrillic when it cannot
convert.

I don't think its an issue with compatibility between Synchronet and Mystic per
se, although there is a lot of work to be done there by just about everything
in the FidoNet space especially those of us centric to CP437/850.

Like I said, I have some working proofs here but I want a good stable release
before I start messing with the display engine since that can totally fubar a
BBS if its buggy. I've also considering just spinning off a 1.50 release and
keeping 1.12 for fixes and minor features.

.... Press SPACEBAR once to abort, or twice to save changes

SB> Um.../fidopoll vs ./mis poll? I'm still fairly certain that this was my
SB> biggest problem.

I figured this might be what you struggled with. I could have done better.

MIS POLL was introduced during A45. I believe I gave people 2-3 years to stop
using fidopoll before I removed it entirely. Its mentioned in A45 prealpha and
A46 release notes to stop using fidopoll because it will vanish eventually.

I mentioned in A47 that it was gone but it was an oversight of mine not to
mention something like "If you are still using fidopoll you need to go replace
'fidopoll' with 'mis poll' in your scripts or event commands...

I didn't stop and think that people who just joined Mystic in A46 would
probably not have seen the warnings to stop using it. I don't think its a
problem with the upgrade process as much as it was a (hopefully) one-time
mistake in my patch notes. I am sure I'll screw those up again though :)

SB> Having said that, the changes to 'Interval' events threw me for a loop,
SB> too! Suddenly, all off my 'Interval' events were happening every five
SB> minutes, instead of five minutes after every hour. You didn't mention
SB> this in your update notes. I'm not the only McNoob to be confused by
SB> this, either.

I can assure you there was no change to the event system which was why it was
not noted.

Intervals have always executed on a time-based interval (hense the name). I
will paste the Interval documentation from 1.10 which was over a decade ago for
confirmation of intention. Out of curiosity I also installed a stock A46 and
created an Interval event of 5 minutes and it executed twice in 10 minutes as
expected. I will paste those logs too.

Perhaps its specific to the hour field or something if there is a problem?

1.10 documentation:

TYPE3: Interval
===============
This event type is similar to the shell event type, except that the hour
and minute define a time interval. For example, if you want to execute
the event every 15 minutes you would set:

Exec Hour: 00
Exec Mins: 15

1.12 A46 logs of 5 minute interval event:

--------------------- Mystic v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 Sun, Apr 03 2022 (loglevel
1)
+ 2022.04.03 18:26:59 MANAGER Starting event system
+ 2022.04.03 18:26:59 MANAGER Starting 1 server(s)
+ 2022.04.03 18:26:59 EVENT Starting 1 event(s)
+ 2022.04.03 18:31:04 EVENT Running event: test interval
+ 2022.04.03 18:31:04 EVENT Cmd: test
+ 2022.04.03 18:31:04 EVENT Res: 255
+ 2022.04.03 18:36:00 EVENT Running event: test interval
+ 2022.04.03 18:36:00 EVENT Cmd: test
+ 2022.04.03 18:36:00 EVENT Res: 255
+ 2022.04.03 18:36:24 MANAGER Server shutdown received from console

SB> Again, I must be clear: this is intended as 'constructive' criticism,
SB> not as insult. I wouldn't choose any other base but Mystic for PiBBS!

All good :)

Sometimes when I asked questions people assume I am insulted but thats not
really the case. I am only trying to dig some answers out of you so I can
figure out what went wrong or/and add clarification.

I appreciate the feedback and each release usually does see improvements to the
upgrade process believe it or not. The entire "install replace" system didn't
even exist 2-3 alphas ago. Prompts didn't automatically update until recently,
etc.

One major issue with A47 is just that I took too long and did too much between
releases that there were a lot of upgrade steps. Even if they were relatively
simply, there were a lot.

SB> Sir, I would suggest that the upgrade from a46 to a47 is not the same, at
SB> all...You kinda broke a lot of stuff in that particular upgrade. And
SB> you've already admitted as much. Perhaps, I am simply adding my feedback
SB> too late?

I am really not aware of a lot of stuff broken in A47 so I am all ears if you
have things you've ran into. I hope the history of posts in this base is
evidence of my responsiveness (except for Bjorns Wiberg's recent posts which
I've had to address via Netmail. His posts are not making it to me or my uplink
for some reason).

There have been some bugs since A47 that I fixed and consider pretty big fixes,
but I believe most of those existed in previous versions as well. Either way,
happy to address anything broken and make improvements where I can identify
them.

I am reliant on specific feedback and experience to do those things though and
possibly even yours specifically, because no one else has echoed a similar
thing to me with this latest release so far.

.... A .GIF is worth a thousand .TXT.

g0> SB> Um.../fidopoll vs ./mis poll? I'm still fairly certain that this was
g0> SB> biggest problem.
g0>
g0> I figured this might be what you struggled with. I could have done
g0> better.

Very correct, sir.

g0> MIS POLL was introduced during A45. I believe I gave people 2-3 years to
g0> stop using fidopoll before I removed it entirely. Its mentioned in A45
g0> prealpha and A46 release notes to stop using fidopoll because it will
g0> vanish eventually.

Except for one problem: not every Mystic SysOp has been a SysOp for 2 or 3
years, sir!

g0> I mentioned in A47 that it was gone but it was an oversight of mine not
g0> to mention something like "If you are still using fidopoll you need to
g0> go replace 'fidopoll' with 'mis poll' in your scripts or event
g0> commands...

Absolutely, you did mention this! And everyone who supports Mystic has done the
same.

Again, I'm not being combative, when I say, 'You didn't mention the 'Interval'
change!'

g0> I didn't stop and think that people who just joined Mystic in A46 would
g0> probably not have seen the warnings to stop using it. I don't think its
g0> a problem with the upgrade process as much as it was a (hopefully)
g0> one-time mistake in my patch notes. I am sure I'll screw those up again
g0> though :)

You really need to stop and think about us McNoobs, then.

I fully agree, this may be just a problem with a46 vs a47! But it's still a
problem that this McNoob is trying to help others understand.

Please, sir g00r00! Teach me! I can only share what you share!

McDoob
SysOp, PiBBS
pibbs.sytes.net

.... I don't have the time for a hobby. I have a computer.

g0> I do have a solution for that, but I think there always is going to be
g0> some issue with various codepages and UTF8 only because they cannot
g0> always convert between each other.

I am really hoping that you can find a way to defeat this problem!

g0> I do have some better translations in the pipeline but at the end of the
g0> day you just end up with a ? ASCII instead of a UTF8 cyrillic when it
g0> cannot convert.

That's not exactly ideal, sir. (o_O)

I know at least a little about what challenge you're faced with. I am certain
that you can solve this problem, even though I barely know your thought
process....Clearly, you are at least as intelligent as I am?

McDoob
SysOp, PiBBS
pibbs.sytes.net

.... Evil triumphs when good people do nothing. - Einstein

SB> Yes, sir. That was a big surprise, but not the only one...

It sucks that it was a surprise for you.

Again, I agree I could have given more detail in A47 notes, but its not like I
pulled the rug out on anyone. I was telling people personally, and Mystic
patch notes were telling people to upgrade for *years* now.

Even if you only read A47 upgrade notes it still tells you that fidopoll is no
longer available for use once you upgrade. It should never be a surprise to
anyone that read any of the release notes in the past several years.

There is some responsbility on end users to read the notes.

SB> g0> Intervals have always executed on a time-based interval (hense the
SB> g0> name). I will paste the Interval documentation from 1.10 which was
SB>
SB> I can assure you that there WAS, sir, again! No longer does 'Interval'
SB> respect the 'Hour' entry! I am not the only McNoob to notice this!
SB> Please check your work!

I am the only programmer so I would know if I rewrote the event system in A47
which I did not. Assuring me that I did doesn't change that! :)

I showed you the docs from 1.10 which was a decade ago and it describes the
event type exactly as it works today. I showed logs of A46 executing Interval
events exactly as the docs describe. I also tested an hour+minute Interval and
they all work exactly the same in all versions.

Could it be that you accidentally changed your Hourly event type to Interval?
If you think there is a bug give me reproducable steps and I'll gladly fix it.

The idea that A47 is severely broken goes against every piece of feedback I've
had so far other than yours, but like I said: If you have examples let me have
them and I will gladly fix them or make improvements.

.... The dog ate my .REP packet

g0> SB> I can assure you that there WAS, sir, again! No longer does 'Interval
g0> SB> respect the 'Hour' entry! I am not the only McNoob to notice this!
g0> SB> Please check your work!

g0> I am the only programmer so I would know if I rewrote the event system
g0> in A47 which I did not. Assuring me that I did doesn't change that! :)

I am very aware of the entirety of the Mystic dev team. I feel certain that I
mentioned this already...

g0> Could it be that you accidentally changed your Hourly event type to
g0> Interval? If you think there is a bug give me reproducable steps and
g0> I'll gladly fix it.

Possibly, it is only my own mistake...but I'm also relaying another newbie's
frustrations, as well...so maybe not...we both saw strange behavior with
'Interval' events, when they happened every five minutes, instead of five
minutes after every hour...

I'd have to create a new instance of Mystic to reproduce this, so...don't hold
your breath...(o_-)

But, as you say, a bug is reproducable. I'll get back to you on
this...eventually...some day...possibly before 1.13 is released...

g0> The idea that A47 is severely broken goes against every piece of
g0> feedback I've had so far other than yours, but like I said: If you have
g0> examples let me have them and I will gladly fix them or make
g0> improvements.

I never suggested that a47 was 'broken'. Again, I was only griping about the
upgrade process...

Dude! I'm not attacking you, or your software! Relax! (@_@)

g0> ... The dog ate my .REP packet

Mine too...damn dog...

McDoob
SysOp, PiBBS
pibbs.sytes.net

.... The dog ate my .REP packet

SB> Possibly, it is only my own mistake...but I'm also relaying another
SB> newbie's frustrations, as well...so maybe not...we both saw strange
SB> behavior with 'Interval' events, when they happened every five minutes,
SB> instead of five minutes after every hour...

Just to reiterate:

Interval events execute in time intervals so setting it to 5 means 5 minutes

Hourly events execute every hour so setting it to 5 means 5 after the hour.

This is how they worked in both A46 and A47 and there hasn't been any code
change there.

SB> g0> feedback I've had so far other than yours, but like I said: If you
SB> SB> g0> SB> g0> SB> g0> SB> g0> SB> g0> SB> g0> SB> g0> SB>
SB> SB> g0> SB> g0> ha
SB> g0> examples let me have them and I will gladly fix them or make
SB> g0> improvements.
SB>
SB> Dude! I'm not attacking you, or your software! Relax! (@_@)

The mental gymnastics you're putting yourself through to say that I am insulted
or accusing you of attacking me throughout this thread is strange. In this
case you're responding to a paragraph which I literally included smiley faces.

I haven't done anything but respond and ask you to provide information about
problems you're having and look into the one thing you did mention.

Anyway like I said: If you have specific bugs or suggestions, let me know!

.... If at first you don't succeed, blame your parents!

On 2022 Apr 03 19:57:50, you wrote to g00r00:

g0>> I do have a solution for that, but I think there always is going to
g0>> be some issue with various codepages and UTF8 only because they
g0>> cannot always convert between each other.

SB> I am really hoping that you can find a way to defeat this problem!

FWIW: there is no way that a ""character set"" like UTF-8 can have all of the
1114112 codepoints it contains converted into the mere 255 characters contained
in traditional codepages like CP437... there simply are not enough character
slots on both sides... if there were, we wouldn't need UTF-8 or all of the
various codepages in the first place ;)

)\/(ark

"The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty,
ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
.... I am curious, Do all Microsoft programmers do drugs?

g0> SB> Dude! I'm not attacking you, or your software! Relax! (@_@)
g0>
g0> The mental gymnastics you're putting yourself through to say that I am
g0> insulted or accusing you of attacking me throughout this thread is
g0> strange. In this case you're responding to a paragraph which I
g0> literally included smiley faces.

Sir, I was a little too hyper-sensitive when I wrote that.

Quite literally, I had just defended myself from a 'troll' immediately before
that. And I was worried that I had pissed off another person, when you said
"nobody else is complaining about a47".

I hope that you understand how much I respect both Mystic and its creator. And
I also hope you can forgive me for my faux pas. Sorry, and thanks in advance.

McDoob
SysOp, PiBBS
pibbs.sytes.net

.... A SQL query walks into a bar and sees two tables. Asks: 'Can I join you?'

SB> Sir, I was a little too hyper-sensitive when I wrote that.

It's all good, friend! :)

.... Anything is possible if you don't know what you're talking about

-=> Shaun Buzza wrote to g00r00 <=-

g0> SB> Dude! I'm not attacking you, or your software! Relax! (@_@)

g0> The mental gymnastics you're putting yourself through to say that I am
g0> insulted or accusing you of attacking me throughout this thread is
g0> strange. In this case you're responding to a paragraph which I
g0> literally included smiley faces.

SB> Sir, I was a little too hyper-sensitive when I wrote that.

You wrote very similar things in at least a half-dozen messages. It
really was very strange, and kind of creepy, actually.

SB> Quite literally, I had just defended myself from a 'troll'
SB> immediately before that. And I was worried that I had pissed off
SB> another person, when you said "nobody else is complaining about
SB> a47".

Well, you *WERE* the only person complaining.... some logical
troubleshooting would seem to indicate that the problems were with.....
you.

SB> I hope that you understand how much I respect both Mystic and its
SB> creator. And I also hope you can forgive me for my faux pas.
SB> Sorry, and thanks in advance.

Hahahah. There's that creepy again. You're a strange one, all right.

.... Some days you're the hammer, and some days you're the nail.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52