On 2/14/23 6:46 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-02-14 06:53, 25B.R867 wrote:
>> On 2/11/23 1:06 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2023-02-11 17:52, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 11/02/2023 15:59, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 10:33:43 -0500, Gerald Gruner
>>>>> <gerald314@yahoo.de> wrote:
>>>>>> Strangely there seems to be a competition to find the most
>>>>>> comoplicated way
>>>>>> here in the thread.
>>>>>> The disk managing/formating tool provided by your distribution
>>>>>> should be
>>>>>> able to edit the USB-stick's label. In my distribututio it is
>>>>>> gnome-disks...
>>>>>
>>>>> As this is a linux newsgroup rather then a gnome newsgroup, indicating
>>>>> the command line tools that the desktop environment gui tool uses
>>>>> in the
>>>>> background is appropriate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards, Dave Hodgins
>>>>
>>>> Gnome is built over linux.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone who is running a GUI will have a GUI based disk editing tool
>>>>
>>>> Gparted,
>>>> Gnome-disk
>>>> KDE partition manager
>>>> to name but three.
>>>
>>> YaST.
>>
>>    The YAST disk-manager/formatter does deliver much finer setup
>>    control, much more simply, than GParted or anything else.
>>    There are all sorts of fine tweaks you can pick - including
>>    things like sector size ... ie do you expect mass quantities
>>    of small files or fewer huge files to be stored. Yea, some
>>    other CL utilities can do that, but only with lots of often
>>    obscure and poorly documented CL params.
>>
>>    I kinda gave up on SUSE/OpenSuse after IBM took over RH.
>>    Non-paying users are likely to get the "beta", or worse,
>>    code - guinea pigs for IBM/RH testing. SUSE is an RPM
>>    distro and borrows heavily from the RHEL repos. The final
>>    straw was when they removed hddtemp and put an inferior
>>    version of ffmpeg in there ..... <giant flushing sound>
>
> Your ideas of openSUSE are obsolete.

This was from experiences maybe 18 months ago - so if
it is 'obsolete' it's not VERY obsolete.

I used to recommend OpenSUSE as a "Cadillac" OS - it
really did have a lot of nice stuff you didn't see
elsewhere. But some of the makers decisions lately ...

>>    Still, for MOST users/needs, gparted is by far the easiest,
>>    most transparent, way to do disks.
>

On 2/14/23 9:07 AM, Rich wrote:
> 25B.R867 <25B.R867@noaaada.net> wrote:
>> There are all sorts of fine tweaks you can pick - including
>> things like sector size
>
> Sector size is fixed by the disk manufacturer when they create the
> disk, and for mechanical drives is either 512 bytes or 4096 bytes.
>
> You are likely referring to "cluster size" which is a different
> concept, but is one in which you get to 'tweak' when making a given
> filesystem.

Probably ... I was posting at 1am :-)

But just for fun bring up OpenSUSE somewhere and
use YAST2 to format a hdd ... there are lots of
fine options relating to the disk and its relations
with the OS you do NOT see elsewhere - stuff you
maybe didn't even realize you could tweak for
"special needs".

On 2023-02-14 16:06, 25B.R867 wrote:
> On 2/14/23 6:46 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-02-14 06:53, 25B.R867 wrote:
>>> On 2/11/23 1:06 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2023-02-11 17:52, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 11/02/2023 15:59, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 10:33:43 -0500, Gerald Gruner
>>>>>> <gerald314@yahoo.de> wrote:
>>>>>>> Strangely there seems to be a competition to find the most
>>>>>>> comoplicated way
>>>>>>> here in the thread.
>>>>>>> The disk managing/formating tool provided by your distribution
>>>>>>> should be
>>>>>>> able to edit the USB-stick's label. In my distribututio it is
>>>>>>> gnome-disks...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As this is a linux newsgroup rather then a gnome newsgroup,
>>>>>> indicating
>>>>>> the command line tools that the desktop environment gui tool uses
>>>>>> in the
>>>>>> background is appropriate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards, Dave Hodgins
>>>>>
>>>>> Gnome is built over linux.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone who is running a GUI will have a GUI based disk editing tool
>>>>>
>>>>> Gparted,
>>>>> Gnome-disk
>>>>> KDE partition manager
>>>>> to name but three.
>>>>
>>>> YaST.
>>>
>>>    The YAST disk-manager/formatter does deliver much finer setup
>>>    control, much more simply, than GParted or anything else.
>>>    There are all sorts of fine tweaks you can pick - including
>>>    things like sector size ... ie do you expect mass quantities
>>>    of small files or fewer huge files to be stored. Yea, some
>>>    other CL utilities can do that, but only with lots of often
>>>    obscure and poorly documented CL params.
>>>
>>>    I kinda gave up on SUSE/OpenSuse after IBM took over RH.
>>>    Non-paying users are likely to get the "beta", or worse,
>>>    code - guinea pigs for IBM/RH testing. SUSE is an RPM
>>>    distro and borrows heavily from the RHEL repos. The final
>>>    straw was when they removed hddtemp and put an inferior
>>>    version of ffmpeg in there ..... <giant flushing sound>
>>
>> Your ideas of openSUSE are obsolete.
>
>
>   This was from experiences maybe 18 months ago - so if
>   it is 'obsolete' it's not VERY obsolete.

Well, I have no problems installing "hddtemp", and you can have ffmpeg 5
if you wish.

And no, it does not borrow at all from RHEL repos.

>
>   I used to recommend OpenSUSE as a "Cadillac" OS - it
>   really did have a lot of nice stuff you didn't see
>   elsewhere. But some of the makers decisions lately ...

I hate some of their future decisions. Those in the past I live with.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

25B.R867 <25B.R867@noaaada.net> wrote:
> On 2/14/23 9:07 AM, Rich wrote:
>> 25B.R867 <25B.R867@noaaada.net> wrote:
>>> There are all sorts of fine tweaks you can pick - including
>>> things like sector size
>>
>> Sector size is fixed by the disk manufacturer when they create the
>> disk, and for mechanical drives is either 512 bytes or 4096 bytes.
>>
>> You are likely referring to "cluster size" which is a different
>> concept, but is one in which you get to 'tweak' when making a given
>> filesystem.
>
> Probably ... I was posting at 1am :-)
>
> But just for fun bring up OpenSUSE somewhere and use YAST2 to
> format a hdd ... there are lots of fine options relating to the
> disk and its relations with the OS you do NOT see elsewhere - stuff
> you maybe didn't even realize you could tweak for "special needs".

Read the manual page for mkfs.xxxx for your favorite filesystem and
you'll find all those same "fine options" detailed for you.

Stick to the GUI crutches, and you only become aware of what the author
of the GUI crutch allowed you to be aware of.

On 2/14/23 10:51 AM, Rich wrote:
> 25B.R867 <25B.R867@noaaada.net> wrote:
>> On 2/14/23 9:07 AM, Rich wrote:
>>> 25B.R867 <25B.R867@noaaada.net> wrote:
>>>> There are all sorts of fine tweaks you can pick - including
>>>> things like sector size
>>>
>>> Sector size is fixed by the disk manufacturer when they create the
>>> disk, and for mechanical drives is either 512 bytes or 4096 bytes.
>>>
>>> You are likely referring to "cluster size" which is a different
>>> concept, but is one in which you get to 'tweak' when making a given
>>> filesystem.
>>
>> Probably ... I was posting at 1am :-)
>>
>> But just for fun bring up OpenSUSE somewhere and use YAST2 to
>> format a hdd ... there are lots of fine options relating to the
>> disk and its relations with the OS you do NOT see elsewhere - stuff
>> you maybe didn't even realize you could tweak for "special needs".
>
> Read the manual page for mkfs.xxxx for your favorite filesystem and
> you'll find all those same "fine options" detailed for you.

Fuck mkfs ... gimme a GUI with checkboxes and lines that
help you pick the right set of params. Much more intuitive,
much less prone to error. You can SEE what you're doing.

> Stick to the GUI crutches, and you only become aware of what the author
> of the GUI crutch allowed you to be aware of.

Don't knock GUIs. As said they (can) make all the little
nuances MUCH more transparent and error-free. A good GUI
adds the makers IQ to yours.

The YAST2 GUI (OpenSUSE also has a text-based "gui") is
really good in this respect. For most 'gparted' is highly
recommended and usually "good enough".

Sorry, this ain't 1995 anymore.

On 2/14/23 10:29 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-02-14 16:06, 25B.R867 wrote:
>> On 2/14/23 6:46 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2023-02-14 06:53, 25B.R867 wrote:
>>>> On 2/11/23 1:06 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-02-11 17:52, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/02/2023 15:59, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 10:33:43 -0500, Gerald Gruner
>>>>>>> <gerald314@yahoo.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Strangely there seems to be a competition to find the most
>>>>>>>> comoplicated way
>>>>>>>> here in the thread.
>>>>>>>> The disk managing/formating tool provided by your distribution
>>>>>>>> should be
>>>>>>>> able to edit the USB-stick's label. In my distribututio it is
>>>>>>>> gnome-disks...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As this is a linux newsgroup rather then a gnome newsgroup,
>>>>>>> indicating
>>>>>>> the command line tools that the desktop environment gui tool uses
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>> background is appropriate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards, Dave Hodgins
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gnome is built over linux.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone who is running a GUI will have a GUI based disk editing tool
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gparted,
>>>>>> Gnome-disk
>>>>>> KDE partition manager
>>>>>> to name but three.
>>>>>
>>>>> YaST.
>>>>
>>>>    The YAST disk-manager/formatter does deliver much finer setup
>>>>    control, much more simply, than GParted or anything else.
>>>>    There are all sorts of fine tweaks you can pick - including
>>>>    things like sector size ... ie do you expect mass quantities
>>>>    of small files or fewer huge files to be stored. Yea, some
>>>>    other CL utilities can do that, but only with lots of often
>>>>    obscure and poorly documented CL params.
>>>>
>>>>    I kinda gave up on SUSE/OpenSuse after IBM took over RH.
>>>>    Non-paying users are likely to get the "beta", or worse,
>>>>    code - guinea pigs for IBM/RH testing. SUSE is an RPM
>>>>    distro and borrows heavily from the RHEL repos. The final
>>>>    straw was when they removed hddtemp and put an inferior
>>>>    version of ffmpeg in there ..... <giant flushing sound>
>>>
>>> Your ideas of openSUSE are obsolete.
>>
>>
>>    This was from experiences maybe 18 months ago - so if
>>    it is 'obsolete' it's not VERY obsolete.
>
> Well, I have no problems installing "hddtemp", and you can have ffmpeg 5
> if you wish.

Maybe I'll look into it again. MIGHT have been just an
early-release brain-fart .......

But it DID cause me lots of problems. Had to change three
servers to UBUNTU because of the brainfarts. Hard to forgive.

No, I do NOT like what Ubuntu has become ... I've been changing
everything Ubuntu over to vanilla Deb lately. You know where
you stand with vanilla Deb.

> And no, it does not borrow at all from RHEL repos.

Ummmmm ... I'd look into that. You CAN install almost
anything RHEL into OpenSUSE fer sure .....

>>    I used to recommend OpenSUSE as a "Cadillac" OS - it
>>    really did have a lot of nice stuff you didn't see
>>    elsewhere. But some of the makers decisions lately ...
>
> I hate some of their future decisions. Those in the past I live with.

All the DistroLords have brainfarts. The important bit is
whether they quickly SMELL the stink and get reasonable.
Some do, some don't.

On 14/02/2023 14:07, Rich wrote:
> 25B.R867 <25B.R867@noaaada.net> wrote:
>> There are all sorts of fine tweaks you can pick - including
>> things like sector size
>
> Sector size is fixed by the disk manufacturer when they create the
> disk,
It might have been years ago on spinning rust. I am fairly sure its an
abstraction today.

>and for mechanical drives is either 512 bytes or 4096 bytes.

I think I have seen other sizes.
>
> You are likely referring to "cluster size" which is a different
> concept, but is one in which you get to 'tweak' when making a given
> filesystem.

--
“Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

On 15/02/2023 07:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 14/02/2023 14:07, Rich wrote:
>> 25B.R867 <25B.R867@noaaada.net> wrote:
>>>    There are all sorts of fine tweaks you can pick - including
>>>    things like sector size
>>
>> Sector size is fixed by the disk manufacturer when they create the
>> disk,
> It might have been years ago on spinning rust. I am fairly sure its an
> abstraction today.
>
>  >and for mechanical drives is either 512 bytes or 4096 bytes.
>
> I think I have seen other sizes.
>>
>> You are likely referring to "cluster size" which is a different
>> concept, but is one in which you get to 'tweak' when making a given
>> filesystem.
>

This question interested me and I decided to actually spend ten minutes
looking it up to get a more definitive answer.

- Two sector sizes are in use - 512 and 4096.
- all USB flash drives and many disk drives will *emulate* either.
- This is not to do with extents/clusters.
- Most formatting software will allow this.

--
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

On 2023-02-15 07:05, 25B.R867 wrote:
> On 2/14/23 10:29 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2023-02-14 16:06, 25B.R867 wrote:
>>> On 2/14/23 6:46 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2023-02-14 06:53, 25B.R867 wrote:
>>>>> On 2/11/23 1:06 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> On 2023-02-11 17:52, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/02/2023 15:59, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 10:33:43 -0500, Gerald Gruner
>>>>>>>> <gerald314@yahoo.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Strangely there seems to be a competition to find the most
>>>>>>>>> comoplicated way
>>>>>>>>> here in the thread.
>>>>>>>>> The disk managing/formating tool provided by your distribution
>>>>>>>>> should be
>>>>>>>>> able to edit the USB-stick's label. In my distribututio it is
>>>>>>>>> gnome-disks...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As this is a linux newsgroup rather then a gnome newsgroup,
>>>>>>>> indicating
>>>>>>>> the command line tools that the desktop environment gui tool
>>>>>>>> uses in the
>>>>>>>> background is appropriate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards, Dave Hodgins
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gnome is built over linux.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyone who is running a GUI will have a GUI based disk editing tool
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gparted,
>>>>>>> Gnome-disk
>>>>>>> KDE partition manager
>>>>>>> to name but three.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> YaST.
>>>>>
>>>>>    The YAST disk-manager/formatter does deliver much finer setup
>>>>>    control, much more simply, than GParted or anything else.
>>>>>    There are all sorts of fine tweaks you can pick - including
>>>>>    things like sector size ... ie do you expect mass quantities
>>>>>    of small files or fewer huge files to be stored. Yea, some
>>>>>    other CL utilities can do that, but only with lots of often
>>>>>    obscure and poorly documented CL params.
>>>>>
>>>>>    I kinda gave up on SUSE/OpenSuse after IBM took over RH.
>>>>>    Non-paying users are likely to get the "beta", or worse,
>>>>>    code - guinea pigs for IBM/RH testing. SUSE is an RPM
>>>>>    distro and borrows heavily from the RHEL repos. The final
>>>>>    straw was when they removed hddtemp and put an inferior
>>>>>    version of ffmpeg in there ..... <giant flushing sound>
>>>>
>>>> Your ideas of openSUSE are obsolete.
>>>
>>>
>>>    This was from experiences maybe 18 months ago - so if
>>>    it is 'obsolete' it's not VERY obsolete.
>>
>> Well, I have no problems installing "hddtemp", and you can have ffmpeg
>> 5 if you wish.
>
>   Maybe I'll look into it again. MIGHT have been just an
>   early-release brain-fart .......
>
>   But it DID cause me lots of problems. Had to change three
>   servers to UBUNTU because of the brainfarts. Hard to forgive.
>
>   No, I do NOT like what Ubuntu has become ... I've been changing
>   everything Ubuntu over to vanilla Deb lately. You know where
>   you stand with vanilla Deb.
>
>> And no, it does not borrow at all from RHEL repos.
>
>   Ummmmm ... I'd look into that. You CAN install almost
>   anything RHEL into OpenSUSE fer sure .....

If you like to live dangerously, yes, you can.

>
>>>    I used to recommend OpenSUSE as a "Cadillac" OS - it
>>>    really did have a lot of nice stuff you didn't see
>>>    elsewhere. But some of the makers decisions lately ...
>>
>> I hate some of their future decisions. Those in the past I live with.
>
>   All the DistroLords have brainfarts. The important bit is
>   whether they quickly SMELL the stink and get reasonable.
>   Some do, some don't.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2023-02-15 06:57, 25B.R867 wrote:
> On 2/14/23 10:51 AM, Rich wrote:
>> 25B.R867 <25B.R867@noaaada.net> wrote:
>>> On 2/14/23 9:07 AM, Rich wrote:
>>>> 25B.R867 <25B.R867@noaaada.net> wrote:
>>>>>     There are all sorts of fine tweaks you can pick - including
>>>>>     things like sector size
>>>>
>>>> Sector size is fixed by the disk manufacturer when they create the
>>>> disk, and for mechanical drives is either 512 bytes or 4096 bytes.
>>>>
>>>> You are likely referring to "cluster size" which is a different
>>>> concept, but is one in which you get to 'tweak' when making a given
>>>> filesystem.
>>>
>>>    Probably ... I was posting at 1am   :-)
>>>
>>>    But just for fun bring up OpenSUSE somewhere and use YAST2 to
>>>    format a hdd ...  there are lots of fine options relating to the
>>>    disk and its relations with the OS you do NOT see elsewhere - stuff
>>>    you maybe didn't even realize you could tweak for "special needs".
>>
>> Read the manual page for mkfs.xxxx for your favorite filesystem and
>> you'll find all those same "fine options" detailed for you.
>
>   Fuck mkfs ... gimme a GUI with checkboxes and lines that
>   help you pick the right set of params. Much more intuitive,
>   much less prone to error. You can SEE what you're doing.
>
>> Stick to the GUI crutches, and you only become aware of what the author
>> of the GUI crutch allowed you to be aware of.
>
>   Don't knock GUIs. As said they (can) make all the little
>   nuances MUCH more transparent and error-free. A good GUI
>   adds the makers IQ to yours.
>
>   The YAST2 GUI (OpenSUSE also has a text-based "gui") is
>   really good in this respect. For most 'gparted' is highly
>   recommended and usually "good enough".
>
>   Sorry, this ain't 1995 anymore.

And it ain't Windows, either.

The GUI interface is an afterthought, and doesn't have all the options.
That's just a fact.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 15/02/2023 11:29, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> The GUI interface is an afterthought, and doesn't have all the options.
> That's just a fact.

Horses for courses.

You don't need a torque wrench to top up your oil.
--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.

On 2/15/23 6:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-02-15 06:57, 25B.R867 wrote:
>> On 2/14/23 10:51 AM, Rich wrote:
>>> 25B.R867 <25B.R867@noaaada.net> wrote:
>>>> On 2/14/23 9:07 AM, Rich wrote:
>>>>> 25B.R867 <25B.R867@noaaada.net> wrote:
>>>>>>     There are all sorts of fine tweaks you can pick - including
>>>>>>     things like sector size
>>>>>
>>>>> Sector size is fixed by the disk manufacturer when they create the
>>>>> disk, and for mechanical drives is either 512 bytes or 4096 bytes.
>>>>>
>>>>> You are likely referring to "cluster size" which is a different
>>>>> concept, but is one in which you get to 'tweak' when making a given
>>>>> filesystem.
>>>>
>>>>    Probably ... I was posting at 1am   :-)
>>>>
>>>>    But just for fun bring up OpenSUSE somewhere and use YAST2 to
>>>>    format a hdd ...  there are lots of fine options relating to the
>>>>    disk and its relations with the OS you do NOT see elsewhere - stuff
>>>>    you maybe didn't even realize you could tweak for "special needs".
>>>
>>> Read the manual page for mkfs.xxxx for your favorite filesystem and
>>> you'll find all those same "fine options" detailed for you.
>>
>>    Fuck mkfs ... gimme a GUI with checkboxes and lines that
>>    help you pick the right set of params. Much more intuitive,
>>    much less prone to error. You can SEE what you're doing.
>>
>>> Stick to the GUI crutches, and you only become aware of what the author
>>> of the GUI crutch allowed you to be aware of.
>>
>>    Don't knock GUIs. As said they (can) make all the little
>>    nuances MUCH more transparent and error-free. A good GUI
>>    adds the makers IQ to yours.
>>
>>    The YAST2 GUI (OpenSUSE also has a text-based "gui") is
>>    really good in this respect. For most 'gparted' is highly
>>    recommended and usually "good enough".
>>
>>    Sorry, this ain't 1995 anymore.
>
> And it ain't Windows, either.
>
> The GUI interface is an afterthought, and doesn't have all the options.
> That's just a fact.

Well, I guess you're perfect and will NEVER screw up
the 97 params needed for a CL app .......... :-)

Sorry, GUIs have a USEFUL PLACE these days. Quicker,
surer. Their limits are the authors - some are VERY
good, others not so much.

Yea ... In The Old Days everything was CL and your
competence was judged by how well you knew the
97 possible params. This just ain't the case
anymore. Fame is judged by how good a GUI for
whatever you can assemble. The "System()" calls
with the 97 params may still be IN there, but
it's not supposed to SHOW. Checkboxes, drop-downs
with options and HELP text ......

Today I was looking for a GUI app for one possible
point of interest - and there WAS NONE obvious.
So I broke out the Laz/FPC (quickest way to a
full bells-n-whistles GUI) and started on one.
An hour in and it's at 90% with surprisingly
little code investment. I'll finish it tomorrow.
It replaces several CLI steps with a bunch of
params and you can immediately SEE the results
all nice and pretty. I'll probably put it on GitHub
or something soon after the final polishing. It'll
wind up in some 'forensic toolkit' and Laz/FPC
means it'll run on Winders too.

On 2/15/23 7:07 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 15/02/2023 11:29, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> The GUI interface is an afterthought, and doesn't have all the
>> options. That's just a fact.
>
> Horses for courses.
>
> You don't need a torque wrench to top up your oil.

But it doesn't hurt to have a graphic indicator
of yer oil level on the dash so you KNOW it's time
to top-up yer oil :-)

On 16/02/2023 06:38, 25B.R867 wrote:
> On 2/15/23 7:07 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 15/02/2023 11:29, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> The GUI interface is an afterthought, and doesn't have all the
>>> options. That's just a fact.
>>
>> Horses for courses.
>>
>> You don't need a torque wrench to top up your oil.
>
>   But it doesn't hurt to have a graphic indicator
>   of yer oil level on the dash so you KNOW it's time
>   to top-up yer oil   :-)

It was over a year before I discovered how to read the oil level in my
car. There was no dipstick. And found it had been overfilled by the last
owner.

--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

On 2023-02-16 11:24, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 16/02/2023 06:38, 25B.R867 wrote:
>> On 2/15/23 7:07 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 15/02/2023 11:29, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> The GUI interface is an afterthought, and doesn't have all the
>>>> options. That's just a fact.
>>>
>>> Horses for courses.
>>>
>>> You don't need a torque wrench to top up your oil.
>>
>>    But it doesn't hurt to have a graphic indicator
>>    of yer oil level on the dash so you KNOW it's time
>>    to top-up yer oil   :-)
>
> It was over a year before I discovered how to read the oil level in my
> car. There was no dipstick. And found it had been overfilled by the last
> owner.

That can be a trick to hid defects (was in a distant past, at least),
and can cause damage to the engine.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2023-02-16 07:36, 25B.R867 wrote:
> On 2/15/23 6:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-02-15 06:57, 25B.R867 wrote:
>>> On 2/14/23 10:51 AM, Rich wrote:
>>>> 25B.R867 <25B.R867@noaaada.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 2/14/23 9:07 AM, Rich wrote:
>>>>>> 25B.R867 <25B.R867@noaaada.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>     There are all sorts of fine tweaks you can pick - including
>>>>>>>     things like sector size
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sector size is fixed by the disk manufacturer when they create the
>>>>>> disk, and for mechanical drives is either 512 bytes or 4096 bytes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are likely referring to "cluster size" which is a different
>>>>>> concept, but is one in which you get to 'tweak' when making a given
>>>>>> filesystem.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Probably ... I was posting at 1am   :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>    But just for fun bring up OpenSUSE somewhere and use YAST2 to
>>>>>    format a hdd ...  there are lots of fine options relating to the
>>>>>    disk and its relations with the OS you do NOT see elsewhere - stuff
>>>>>    you maybe didn't even realize you could tweak for "special needs".
>>>>
>>>> Read the manual page for mkfs.xxxx for your favorite filesystem and
>>>> you'll find all those same "fine options" detailed for you.
>>>
>>>    Fuck mkfs ... gimme a GUI with checkboxes and lines that
>>>    help you pick the right set of params. Much more intuitive,
>>>    much less prone to error. You can SEE what you're doing.
>>>
>>>> Stick to the GUI crutches, and you only become aware of what the author
>>>> of the GUI crutch allowed you to be aware of.
>>>
>>>    Don't knock GUIs. As said they (can) make all the little
>>>    nuances MUCH more transparent and error-free. A good GUI
>>>    adds the makers IQ to yours.
>>>
>>>    The YAST2 GUI (OpenSUSE also has a text-based "gui") is
>>>    really good in this respect. For most 'gparted' is highly
>>>    recommended and usually "good enough".
>>>
>>>    Sorry, this ain't 1995 anymore.
>>
>> And it ain't Windows, either.
>>
>> The GUI interface is an afterthought, and doesn't have all the
>> options. That's just a fact.
>
>   Well, I guess you're perfect and will NEVER screw up
>   the 97 params needed for a CL app ..........  :-)
>
>   Sorry, GUIs have a USEFUL PLACE these days. Quicker,
>   surer. Their limits are the authors - some are VERY
>   good, others not so much.

Of course they have a place and are useful. I don't deny that. But GUIs
do not expose all the possibilities, either.

Me, when I do something repeatedly, including a repeat a year later,
simply write the recipe to a text file, and then copy paste back the CLI
commands to repeat the procedure. If a GUI does that, I have to write a
long text maybe with photos to list every option that I have to click.
That's a lot of effort. Happened to me yesterday, as I had to partition,
format and prepare an old disk as encrypted storage. One of the step was
the partition table, for which I used gparted.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2023-02-16, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-02-16 07:36, 25B.R867 wrote:
>>
>> ?? Sorry, GUIs have a USEFUL PLACE these days. Quicker,
>> ?? surer. Their limits are the authors - some are VERY
>> ?? good, others not so much.
>
> Of course they have a place and are useful. I don't deny that. But GUIs
> do not expose all the possibilities, either.
>
> Me, when I do something repeatedly, including a repeat a year later,
> simply write the recipe to a text file, and then copy paste back the CLI
> commands to repeat the procedure.

I simply write a script (which is a text file, of sorts :-) to
encapsulate the stuff I do rarely. I don't necessarily run the script,
but use it, like you do, for reference.

As to GUI's being quicker, well it depends. I don't think any GUI email
interface is as quick at dealing with mail as mutt or pine. And I find
filemanagers (even command line ones, like midnight commander) clunky
and slow. In fact my X session doesn't even run a filemanager or have
one configured. If you always use GUI's then you are sort of locked out
of scripting for those frequent repetative jobs.

Leave GUI's for graphical stuff, like gimp, dia, qgis etc. Although I
have been known to make use of imagemagick for image manipulation, but
only when I needed to do the same thing to many images. But then, maybe
I am a masochist :-)

On 16/02/2023 11:39, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-02-16 11:24, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 16/02/2023 06:38, 25B.R867 wrote:
>>> On 2/15/23 7:07 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 15/02/2023 11:29, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> The GUI interface is an afterthought, and doesn't have all the
>>>>> options. That's just a fact.
>>>>
>>>> Horses for courses.
>>>>
>>>> You don't need a torque wrench to top up your oil.
>>>
>>>    But it doesn't hurt to have a graphic indicator
>>>    of yer oil level on the dash so you KNOW it's time
>>>    to top-up yer oil   :-)
>>
>> It was over a year before I discovered how to read the oil level in my
>> car. There was no dipstick. And found it had been overfilled by the
>> last owner.
>
> That can be a trick to hid defects (was in a distant past, at least),
> and can cause damage to the engine.
>
It didnt seem to hurt it, but I got better fuel economy without loads of oil

--
WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.

On 2/16/23 5:24 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 16/02/2023 06:38, 25B.R867 wrote:
>> On 2/15/23 7:07 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 15/02/2023 11:29, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> The GUI interface is an afterthought, and doesn't have all the
>>>> options. That's just a fact.
>>>
>>> Horses for courses.
>>>
>>> You don't need a torque wrench to top up your oil.
>>
>>    But it doesn't hurt to have a graphic indicator
>>    of yer oil level on the dash so you KNOW it's time
>>    to top-up yer oil   :-)
>
> It was over a year before I discovered how to read the oil level in my
> car. There was no dipstick. And found it had been overfilled by the last
> owner.

Mine leaks slowly - so I wait for the "Low Oil" light
and put in a couple quarts :-)

But a little graph showing the current level -vs-
"desirable" -vs- "critical" wouldn't hurt. But, it's
over 20 years old so I don't *get* that sort
of stuff.

Anyway, GUIs *can* make things much more clear,
intuitive, helpful and "error free" IF they are
made properly. Nothing WRONG with them at all.
I suspect the "Command-Line Forever" people are
mostly interested in job security. Make SURE it's
totally opaque EXCEPT to the guru's :-)

I was writing a HDD utility the past couple of
days ... until I discovered that Laz/FPC didn't
have all library routines to deal with Int64s -
what you need if you're dealing with terabytes.
Spent today writing a Int64ToStr() and tomorrow
it'll be a HexToInt64() variant. I think I got
it down pretty simple from the Original Concept,
only an integer div and one modulo for each of
the 19 possible digits. Maybe I'll post 'em here.

Ooooh ! "RollerBall" (1975) ! Caan, Houseman, Bach
intro :-)

On 2/16/23 6:39 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-02-16 11:24, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 16/02/2023 06:38, 25B.R867 wrote:
>>> On 2/15/23 7:07 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 15/02/2023 11:29, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> The GUI interface is an afterthought, and doesn't have all the
>>>>> options. That's just a fact.
>>>>
>>>> Horses for courses.
>>>>
>>>> You don't need a torque wrench to top up your oil.
>>>
>>>    But it doesn't hurt to have a graphic indicator
>>>    of yer oil level on the dash so you KNOW it's time
>>>    to top-up yer oil   :-)
>>
>> It was over a year before I discovered how to read the oil level in my
>> car. There was no dipstick. And found it had been overfilled by the
>> last owner.
>
> That can be a trick to hid defects (was in a distant past, at least),
> and can cause damage to the engine.

I think ALL cars STILL have a dipstick - but sometimes
they HIDE it so well you need a Wiki to locate the
damned thing ! 99.9% are dependent on idiot lights
or something similar.

Anyway, my 20+ year old car (which DOES hide the stick)
has a "low oil" message. When it comes on I add 2 quarts
and don't have to worry about it for awhile. Always use
pure synthetic - even if it's "low" it'll still do a
good job.

Several brands of cars came under fire over the past few
years for "sudden catastrophic engine damage", mostly
related to inferior oil delivery thru the little channels.
The afflicted HAVE been collecting $$$ via lawsuits and
class-action ... so likely this is not gonna be an issue
for (awhile).

The sad bit is at this juncture it's possible to build
basically the "perfect" engine. Honda comes close, but
at a premium. Electrics are MUCH simpler ... but the
BATTERY situation still tilts the balance towards
traditional gas/diesel engines by a fair margin.

The LATEST insult - those water-based paints that PEEL
OFF after only a few years. I see those everywhere.
That's worth a class worth of class-action IMHO. Hey,
if you can, special-order one with ONLY the undercoat
paint ... flat grey :-)

On 2/16/23 1:44 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 16/02/2023 11:39, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-02-16 11:24, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 16/02/2023 06:38, 25B.R867 wrote:
>>>> On 2/15/23 7:07 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 15/02/2023 11:29, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> The GUI interface is an afterthought, and doesn't have all the
>>>>>> options. That's just a fact.
>>>>>
>>>>> Horses for courses.
>>>>>
>>>>> You don't need a torque wrench to top up your oil.
>>>>
>>>>    But it doesn't hurt to have a graphic indicator
>>>>    of yer oil level on the dash so you KNOW it's time
>>>>    to top-up yer oil   :-)
>>>
>>> It was over a year before I discovered how to read the oil level in
>>> my car. There was no dipstick. And found it had been overfilled by
>>> the last owner.
>>
>> That can be a trick to hid defects (was in a distant past, at least),
>> and can cause damage to the engine.
>>
> It didnt seem to hurt it, but I got better fuel economy without loads of
> oil

Sometimes, depending on the brand, that CAN be true. Splashing
five+ quarts of oil around DOES consume energy.

However, 'excess' oil can serve as a "heat dissipant" so it's
not ALL bad.

Electrics are VASTLY simpler machines - usually you don't
even need a transmission. However the BATTERIES still
suck rocks and I do NOT see major improvements anytime
soon ...........

On 2/16/23 6:45 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-02-16 07:36, 25B.R867 wrote:
>> On 2/15/23 6:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2023-02-15 06:57, 25B.R867 wrote:
>>>> On 2/14/23 10:51 AM, Rich wrote:
>>>>> 25B.R867 <25B.R867@noaaada.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/14/23 9:07 AM, Rich wrote:
>>>>>>> 25B.R867 <25B.R867@noaaada.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>     There are all sorts of fine tweaks you can pick - including
>>>>>>>>     things like sector size
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sector size is fixed by the disk manufacturer when they create the
>>>>>>> disk, and for mechanical drives is either 512 bytes or 4096 bytes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are likely referring to "cluster size" which is a different
>>>>>>> concept, but is one in which you get to 'tweak' when making a given
>>>>>>> filesystem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Probably ... I was posting at 1am   :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    But just for fun bring up OpenSUSE somewhere and use YAST2 to
>>>>>>    format a hdd ...  there are lots of fine options relating to the
>>>>>>    disk and its relations with the OS you do NOT see elsewhere -
>>>>>> stuff
>>>>>>    you maybe didn't even realize you could tweak for "special needs".
>>>>>
>>>>> Read the manual page for mkfs.xxxx for your favorite filesystem and
>>>>> you'll find all those same "fine options" detailed for you.
>>>>
>>>>    Fuck mkfs ... gimme a GUI with checkboxes and lines that
>>>>    help you pick the right set of params. Much more intuitive,
>>>>    much less prone to error. You can SEE what you're doing.
>>>>
>>>>> Stick to the GUI crutches, and you only become aware of what the
>>>>> author
>>>>> of the GUI crutch allowed you to be aware of.
>>>>
>>>>    Don't knock GUIs. As said they (can) make all the little
>>>>    nuances MUCH more transparent and error-free. A good GUI
>>>>    adds the makers IQ to yours.
>>>>
>>>>    The YAST2 GUI (OpenSUSE also has a text-based "gui") is
>>>>    really good in this respect. For most 'gparted' is highly
>>>>    recommended and usually "good enough".
>>>>
>>>>    Sorry, this ain't 1995 anymore.
>>>
>>> And it ain't Windows, either.
>>>
>>> The GUI interface is an afterthought, and doesn't have all the
>>> options. That's just a fact.
>>
>>    Well, I guess you're perfect and will NEVER screw up
>>    the 97 params needed for a CL app ..........  :-)
>>
>>    Sorry, GUIs have a USEFUL PLACE these days. Quicker,
>>    surer. Their limits are the authors - some are VERY
>>    good, others not so much.
>
> Of course they have a place and are useful. I don't deny that. But GUIs
> do not expose all the possibilities, either.

They can expose the MOST USEFUL possibilities that are
relevant to 99.999% of the users. Yea, the CL versions
may expose a few extras - but almost NOBODY will need them.
That's just not enough to rec the CL approaches.

> Me, when I do something repeatedly, including a repeat a year later,
> simply write the recipe to a text file, and then copy paste back the CLI
> commands to repeat the procedure.

Yep, me too.

> If a GUI does that, I have to write a
> long text maybe with photos to list every option that I have to click.
> That's a lot of effort. Happened to me yesterday, as I had to partition,
> format and prepare an old disk as encrypted storage. One of the step was
> the partition table, for which I used gparted.

Screenshots work well ........

And, as I said, the 99.999% will NEVER need/want all those
micro-nuanced CL options.

I don't suggest disappearing the CL utilities, but for almost
ALL the GUIs are quicker, clearer, more intuitive and less
prone to errors.

Hey, I grew up on CL utils, was good with 'pip' and friends -
but there ARE generally better alternatives these days.

And if you're gonna make RAID arrays ... the OpenSUSE YAST
GUI makes it super super super EASY and clear. The CL utils
and config-file edits are a NIGHTMARE by comparison. A couple
of years ago I had to do it The Hard Way on Centos. NEVER
AGAIN BABY !!! Took a half a fuckin' DAY to get everything
in order and underway ! Steps, more steps and MORE fuckin'
steps asking obscure questions and needing obscure
syntax and nums ...............

IMHO, these days, CL utils are mostly job-security for
sysadmins - maintaining the profitable 'magic'.

On 2/16/23 1:11 PM, Jim Jackson wrote:
> On 2023-02-16, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-02-16 07:36, 25B.R867 wrote:
>>>
>>> ?? Sorry, GUIs have a USEFUL PLACE these days. Quicker,
>>> ?? surer. Their limits are the authors - some are VERY
>>> ?? good, others not so much.
>>
>> Of course they have a place and are useful. I don't deny that. But GUIs
>> do not expose all the possibilities, either.
>>
>> Me, when I do something repeatedly, including a repeat a year later,
>> simply write the recipe to a text file, and then copy paste back the CLI
>> commands to repeat the procedure.
>
> I simply write a script (which is a text file, of sorts :-) to
> encapsulate the stuff I do rarely. I don't necessarily run the script,
> but use it, like you do, for reference.
>
> As to GUI's being quicker, well it depends. I don't think any GUI email
> interface is as quick at dealing with mail as mutt or pine.

Nope, GUIs are quicker for the 99.999% ... All praise ThunderBird,
Gmail .......... (ok, I stay away from anything Goog ...)

> And I find
> filemanagers (even command line ones, like midnight commander) clunky
> and slow. In fact my X session doesn't even run a filemanager or have
> one configured. If you always use GUI's then you are sort of locked out
> of scripting for those frequent repetative jobs.

Do you tell your bosses that highly-obscure CL methods
are the ONLY way .... ?

> Leave GUI's for graphical stuff, like gimp, dia, qgis etc. Although I
> have been known to make use of imagemagick for image manipulation, but
> only when I needed to do the same thing to many images. But then, maybe
> I am a masochist :-)

Well, I'm anti-masochism .......

To paraphrase Lazarus Long, "Laziness is the
mother of all invention" :-)

CL has its place for things that DO require the
micro-nuances. Otherwise ......

And yea, I grew up on CL ... PDP-11s, CP/M .... and
I knew there HAD to be a better way.

On 2/15/23 3:13 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 15/02/2023 07:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 14/02/2023 14:07, Rich wrote:
>>> 25B.R867 <25B.R867@noaaada.net> wrote:
>>>>    There are all sorts of fine tweaks you can pick - including
>>>>    things like sector size
>>>
>>> Sector size is fixed by the disk manufacturer when they create the
>>> disk,
>> It might have been years ago on spinning rust. I am fairly sure its an
>> abstraction today.
>>
>>   >and for mechanical drives is either 512 bytes or 4096 bytes.
>>
>> I think I have seen other sizes.
>>>
>>> You are likely referring to "cluster size" which is a different
>>> concept, but is one in which you get to 'tweak' when making a given
>>> filesystem.
>>
>
> This question interested me and I decided to actually spend ten minutes
> looking it up to get a more definitive answer.
>
> - Two sector sizes are in use - 512 and 4096.
> - all USB flash drives and many disk drives will *emulate* either.
> - This is not to do with extents/clusters.
> - Most formatting software will allow this.

Yep, storage devices are a lot more complicated
under the hood than most realize .....

I see 512 as almost universal on magnetic HDDs.

But 4096 *might* be better if you're keeping
certain kinds of files and/or are using really
LARGE disks. SSD's are kinda "different" - not
all the same constraints/characteristics. The
logic behind how HDDs are done doesn't always
port cleanly.

I was writing a HDD utility this week - had to
deal with terabyte numbers for use/entry/display,

For fun I set an HDD with a 'loop' partition - which
basically means No File Systems - you use the thing
as a block device and every byte can be utilized.
If you need an 12-tb packed binary file then you
snail-mail the whole thing (and yes, some uses
DO generate that much raw data - environmental
monitoring for example - 50 multi-param sensors
for a year, or two, or ten).

Where the data, or individual files, go or are
defined on 'block devices' - YOU have to handle
that. Build in a little more, and more, IQ and
you've built your own "file system" per-se :-)
It can all be done in Python or Pascal fer sure,
haven't tried 'C' yet.

On 2/11/23 5:01 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 11/02/2023 15:59, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>>> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 10:33:43 -0500, Gerald Gruner <gerald314@yahoo.de>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Strangely there seems to be a competition to find the most
>>>> comoplicated way here in the thread.
>>>> The disk managing/formating tool provided by your distribution should be
>>>> able to edit the USB-stick's label. In my distribututio it is
>>>> gnome-disks...
>>>
>>> As this is a linux newsgroup rather then a gnome newsgroup, indicating
>>> the command line tools that the desktop environment gui tool uses in the
>>> background is appropriate.
>>
>> Gnome is built over linux.
>>
>> Anyone who is running a GUI will have a GUI based disk editing tool
>>
>> Gparted,
>> Gnome-disk
>> KDE partition manager
>> to name but three.
>
> I don't here, and I know of at least a couple of distros that don't
> come with one by default even though they have a GUI. Most people
> who use them probably don't need to ask questions like this though.

Mostly true for the 99.999%

They have ONE disk, they write files to it, they
don't care if it's sda1 or sda2 or whatever - they
use the '/' partition for everything.

Now if you're dealing with multi-disk servers and
the like, bigger data, THEN you need to know more.
My most recent box has 5 8-tb HDDs and one 1-tb
"system" disk. It's a quasi-NAS. This is a bit
beyond the 99.999% spectrum of use. It's VITAL to
the op/safety of the Org however so ...

> Not all distros use partition labels to create mount point
> directories by default either, for that matter.

No, some use those fucking long UUID numbers .....

On the whole, 'labels' can work better on "larger"
systems. If a disk craps out it's WAY easier to
replace it with another referenced by label - it
just drops into place for all apps/utilities/scripts.

I don't CARE what a disks UUID might be - I want it,
or a replacement, to be found SIMPLY. I always go
back and edit 'fstab' to set by-label mounting.