https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/us-health-weekend-features-project/article-11710217/Will-ChatGPT-job-Experts-reveal-five-professions-risk-AI.html

As well as producing convincing text in English, ChatGPT can
also write computer code in languages such as Python.

Demonstrations shown off by OpenAI show ChatGPT debugging
code in response to prompts.

ChatGPT maker OpenAI also makes a different version, Codex,
specifically for writing computer code, which Microsoft uses
in its GitHub Copilot.

Saidi says that such technology could have an immediate and
wide-ranging impact on developers - and even cybersecurity
experts.

'Now, this is where we can start to get a bit concerned,
even with applications like ChatGPT still in their rudimentary
form,' he continued.

'ChatGPT generates lines of html code without having to think,
solving complex errors in sequence of code infinitely faster
than a human.

'This, to a certain extent, is throwing the role of supporting
software engineers into question.

.. . .

A month or so ago I mentioned how 4/5/6th-gen (depends
on how you count gens) software development platforms
can put most programmers OUT OF BUSINESS. Even the
pointy-haired boss can kinda describe what's wanted
and then nit-pick the results until it's just what
they (think they) want.

With MS money behind it, ChatGPT+Codex will be a heavy
contender Real Soon.

Now it's looking MUCH more real. We may have outsmarted
ourselves guys ... and automation will also absorb most
of those backup jobs where "do you want fries with that ?"
gets frequent play. McDonalds is already into AutoMacs,
I think the first one is supposed to come online a few
months from now. The deliveries will be all automated
too in a few years - hardly a human hand involved anywhere
in the chain.

They haven't explained how unemployed humans are gonna
PAY for their Big Macs however .....

Humans are expensive and bitch a lot. "AI"s are a little
expensive up front, but cheap and placid thereafter. No
complaints, no strikes, no lawsuits, no OSHA or Workers
Comp or ............... get the Big Picture ? :-)

In article <ciSdnWwhx5UI8H3-nZ2dnZfqnPadnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:
>https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/us-health-weekend-features-project/article-11710217/Will-ChatGPT-job-Experts-reveal-five-professions-risk-AI.html
>
>As well as producing convincing text in English, ChatGPT can
>also write computer code in languages such as Python.
>
>Demonstrations shown off by OpenAI show ChatGPT debugging
>code in response to prompts.
>
>ChatGPT maker OpenAI also makes a different version, Codex,
>specifically for writing computer code, which Microsoft uses
>in its GitHub Copilot.
>
>Saidi says that such technology could have an immediate and
>wide-ranging impact on developers - and even cybersecurity
>experts.
>
>'Now, this is where we can start to get a bit concerned,
>even with applications like ChatGPT still in their rudimentary
>form,' he continued.
>
>'ChatGPT generates lines of html code without having to think,
>solving complex errors in sequence of code infinitely faster
>than a human.
>
>'This, to a certain extent, is throwing the role of supporting
>software engineers into question.
>
>. . .
>
> A month or so ago I mentioned how 4/5/6th-gen (depends
> on how you count gens) software development platforms
> can put most programmers OUT OF BUSINESS. Even the
> pointy-haired boss can kinda describe what's wanted
> and then nit-pick the results until it's just what
> they (think they) want.
>
> With MS money behind it, ChatGPT+Codex will be a heavy
> contender Real Soon.
>
> Now it's looking MUCH more real. We may have outsmarted
> ourselves guys ... and automation will also absorb most
> of those backup jobs where "do you want fries with that ?"
> gets frequent play. McDonalds is already into AutoMacs,
> I think the first one is supposed to come online a few
> months from now. The deliveries will be all automated
> too in a few years - hardly a human hand involved anywhere
> in the chain.
>
> They haven't explained how unemployed humans are gonna
> PAY for their Big Macs however .....
>
> Humans are expensive and bitch a lot. "AI"s are a little
> expensive up front, but cheap and placid thereafter. No
> complaints, no strikes, no lawsuits, no OSHA or Workers
> Comp or ............... get the Big Picture ? :-)
>

M$ touches something, it turns into mud!
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@nk.ca Ici doctor@nk.ca
Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism https://www.empire.kred/ROOTNK?t=94a1f39b
If their only strength is in enforcing weakness, then they will preside over ruin. -unknown Beware https://mindspring.com

On 2023-02-06, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:

> 'ChatGPT generates lines of html code without having to think,
> solving complex errors in sequence of code infinitely faster
> than a human.

Oh, great. Web sites will be even more clever at discriminating
against the browsers they don't want you to run.

The other day I went to the bank to activate a credit card,
since I couldn't get it to work on their web site. The clerk
asked me which browser I was using, pointing out that they only
support Edge and Chrome. When I told him I used Firefox, he
replied, "Never heard of it." But I got him to walk through the
activation procedure on his own terminal (which worked fine, of
course, since he was using Edge). At least I had the satisfaction
of wasting the bank's time rather than them wasting mine.

> A month or so ago I mentioned how 4/5/6th-gen (depends
> on how you count gens) software development platforms
> can put most programmers OUT OF BUSINESS. Even the
> pointy-haired boss can kinda describe what's wanted
> and then nit-pick the results until it's just what
> they (think they) want.
>
> With MS money behind it, ChatGPT+Codex will be a heavy
> contender Real Soon.

Oh no - M$ makes enough stupid design decisions on their own;
who knows what crap an AI will come up with.

> Humans are expensive and bitch a lot. "AI"s are a little
> expensive up front, but cheap and placid thereafter. No
> complaints, no strikes, no lawsuits, no OSHA or Workers
> Comp or ............... get the Big Picture ? :-)

And still our governments are obsessed with increasing our
population as quickly as possible. What are these people going
to do, aside from going psychotic and shooting each other?

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

On 2/5/23 10:42 PM, The Doctor wrote:
> In article <ciSdnWwhx5UI8H3-nZ2dnZfqnPadnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:
>> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/us-health-weekend-features-project/article-11710217/Will-ChatGPT-job-Experts-reveal-five-professions-risk-AI.html
>>
>> As well as producing convincing text in English, ChatGPT can
>> also write computer code in languages such as Python.
>>
>> Demonstrations shown off by OpenAI show ChatGPT debugging
>> code in response to prompts.
>>
>> ChatGPT maker OpenAI also makes a different version, Codex,
>> specifically for writing computer code, which Microsoft uses
>> in its GitHub Copilot.
>>
>> Saidi says that such technology could have an immediate and
>> wide-ranging impact on developers - and even cybersecurity
>> experts.
>>
>> 'Now, this is where we can start to get a bit concerned,
>> even with applications like ChatGPT still in their rudimentary
>> form,' he continued.
>>
>> 'ChatGPT generates lines of html code without having to think,
>> solving complex errors in sequence of code infinitely faster
>> than a human.
>>
>> 'This, to a certain extent, is throwing the role of supporting
>> software engineers into question.
>>
>> . . .
>>
>> A month or so ago I mentioned how 4/5/6th-gen (depends
>> on how you count gens) software development platforms
>> can put most programmers OUT OF BUSINESS. Even the
>> pointy-haired boss can kinda describe what's wanted
>> and then nit-pick the results until it's just what
>> they (think they) want.
>>
>> With MS money behind it, ChatGPT+Codex will be a heavy
>> contender Real Soon.
>>
>> Now it's looking MUCH more real. We may have outsmarted
>> ourselves guys ... and automation will also absorb most
>> of those backup jobs where "do you want fries with that ?"
>> gets frequent play. McDonalds is already into AutoMacs,
>> I think the first one is supposed to come online a few
>> months from now. The deliveries will be all automated
>> too in a few years - hardly a human hand involved anywhere
>> in the chain.
>>
>> They haven't explained how unemployed humans are gonna
>> PAY for their Big Macs however .....
>>
>> Humans are expensive and bitch a lot. "AI"s are a little
>> expensive up front, but cheap and placid thereafter. No
>> complaints, no strikes, no lawsuits, no OSHA or Workers
>> Comp or ............... get the Big Picture ? :-)
>>
>
> M$ touches something, it turns into mud!

People pay to rub mud on themselves - MS capitalizes
on that :-)

Now there WAS a time when MS was relatively benign.
It was seen as a sort of industry hero. Most all was
free or almost free. That changed when the Macs
became really popular. MS became *evil*.

Gates was/is a superior programmer - unfortunately
he also became a very savvy, sociopathic, BIZ
GUY .......

Oh well, the MS marketing strategy, different from
Apple's "elitist" strategy, makes sure that MOST
people get and get used to MS systems. They don't
know anything else, anything better, and cannot
fully grasp "open"/free software - assume it's junk.

I know several bosses who are CONVINCED that if
they aren't buying $5k software licenses for MS
dependent products they're just not doing their
jobs (or fattening their budgets). One buys
a bunch of ArcGIS licenses - even though almost
nobody can figure out how to use it. Yep, there
are FREE gis systems that'll do what everyone
needs, more simply, but FREE=CRAP ! ArcGIS is
"standard" and lots of licenses = PRESTIGE !

On 2/5/23 11:34 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-02-06, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:
>
>> 'ChatGPT generates lines of html code without having to think,
>> solving complex errors in sequence of code infinitely faster
>> than a human.
>
> Oh, great. Web sites will be even more clever at discriminating
> against the browsers they don't want you to run.

Yep ! EDGE or NOTHIN' !!! :-)

> The other day I went to the bank to activate a credit card,
> since I couldn't get it to work on their web site. The clerk
> asked me which browser I was using, pointing out that they only
> support Edge and Chrome. When I told him I used Firefox, he
> replied, "Never heard of it." But I got him to walk through the
> activation procedure on his own terminal (which worked fine, of
> course, since he was using Edge). At least I had the satisfaction
> of wasting the bank's time rather than them wasting mine.

"Never heard" of Firefox ??? Bull. It's been around
for longer than Chrome and a LOT longer than Edge.
It's just a dodge for an inferior web page.

>> A month or so ago I mentioned how 4/5/6th-gen (depends
>> on how you count gens) software development platforms
>> can put most programmers OUT OF BUSINESS. Even the
>> pointy-haired boss can kinda describe what's wanted
>> and then nit-pick the results until it's just what
>> they (think they) want.
>>
>> With MS money behind it, ChatGPT+Codex will be a heavy
>> contender Real Soon.
>
> Oh no - M$ makes enough stupid design decisions on their own;
> who knows what crap an AI will come up with.

Doesn't matter - they'll COMPEL people to use it. They
have the clout ... and nobody, despite all the MS BS,
rebels. They made everybody buy newer PCs for Win-11,
a HUGE expense, and BET they repeat that for Win-12.
MS has clearly bought-in to the main PC makers and
PROFIT$ when new hardware is required. Nobody blinks
an eye.

>> Humans are expensive and bitch a lot. "AI"s are a little
>> expensive up front, but cheap and placid thereafter. No
>> complaints, no strikes, no lawsuits, no OSHA or Workers
>> Comp or ............... get the Big Picture ? :-)
>
> And still our governments are obsessed with increasing our
> population as quickly as possible. What are these people going
> to do, aside from going psychotic and shooting each other?

(Western) govts HAVE A PROBLEM. Look up the fecundity
rates. Even the USA is now below the pop replacement
rate. I think Japan is worst off. "Success" means you
don't have to have nine kids to support/defend you.

BUT - 'welfare' states DEPEND on ripping-off future gens
to support the bread and circuses for the CURRENT gens.
To fail at that is political DISASTER (broader disaster,
who cares so long as the pols are pop eh). Did you wonder
why the US (and EU) are ignoring massive illegal immigration ?
THAT is why. They need a whole new class of wage slaves to
pay TAXES to float all the "free money" stuff.

As for "going psycho" ... yea, it's a problem. The social/cultural
disintegration was "in-progress" (usually with Chinese backing
somewhere in there) but COVID lockdowns amplified the problem
quite abruptly. Way too many people CAN'T COPE anymore and
either go psycho or go Mad Max. Dunno if there's any real
fix beyond hard-ass fascists - and that has a lot of issues
as well.

On 2023-02-06, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:

> On 2/5/23 11:34 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> The other day I went to the bank to activate a credit card,
>> since I couldn't get it to work on their web site. The clerk
>> asked me which browser I was using, pointing out that they only
>> support Edge and Chrome. When I told him I used Firefox, he
>> replied, "Never heard of it." But I got him to walk through the
>> activation procedure on his own terminal (which worked fine, of
>> course, since he was using Edge). At least I had the satisfaction
>> of wasting the bank's time rather than them wasting mine.
>
> "Never heard" of Firefox ??? Bull. It's been around
> for longer than Chrome and a LOT longer than Edge.
> It's just a dodge for an inferior web page.

You know that. I know that. But the bank turns a blind eye -
although I'm sure that up in head office someone is rubbing
his hands with glee. I'm going to make it a policy from now
on to go to the bank and waste their time if their web site
acts up.

>> Oh no - M$ makes enough stupid design decisions on their own;
>> who knows what crap an AI will come up with.
>
> Doesn't matter - they'll COMPEL people to use it. They
> have the clout ... and nobody, despite all the MS BS,
> rebels. They made everybody buy newer PCs for Win-11,
> a HUGE expense, and BET they repeat that for Win-12.
> MS has clearly bought-in to the main PC makers and
> PROFIT$ when new hardware is required. Nobody blinks
> an eye.

On the other hand, there'll be plenty of cheap hardware
available that I can run Linux on.

>> And still our governments are obsessed with increasing our
>> population as quickly as possible. What are these people going
>> to do, aside from going psychotic and shooting each other?
>
> (Western) govts HAVE A PROBLEM. Look up the fecundity
> rates. Even the USA is now below the pop replacement
> rate. I think Japan is worst off. "Success" means you
> don't have to have nine kids to support/defend you.

Horrors! We might finally develop the resources to take care of
the people we already have. (I know, it's a dream, but we all
need our fantasies.)

> BUT - 'welfare' states DEPEND on ripping-off future gens
> to support the bread and circuses for the CURRENT gens.
> To fail at that is political DISASTER (broader disaster,
> who cares so long as the pols are pop eh). Did you wonder
> why the US (and EU) are ignoring massive illegal immigration ?
> THAT is why. They need a whole new class of wage slaves to
> pay TAXES to float all the "free money" stuff.

Here in Canada we've gone the other way, and are trying to push
immigration rates up as fast as we can. For the past 20 years
or so, we've been bringing in between 200,000 and 250,000 people
a year. For the last couple of years it's been over 400,000.
(Multiply by 10 to scale it to U.S. levels.) Most of these people
go straight to Vancouver or Toronto, both of which are becoming
crowded, noisy, and among the most expensive places in the world
to live. In other words, paradise for the politicians.

> As for "going psycho" ... yea, it's a problem. The social/cultural
> disintegration was "in-progress" (usually with Chinese backing
> somewhere in there) but COVID lockdowns amplified the problem
> quite abruptly. Way too many people CAN'T COPE anymore and
> either go psycho or go Mad Max. Dunno if there's any real
> fix beyond hard-ass fascists - and that has a lot of issues
> as well.

Yes, but corporate fascism seems to be gaining hold.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

On 2023-02-06, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:

> Now there WAS a time when MS was relatively benign.
> It was seen as a sort of industry hero. Most all was
> free or almost free. That changed when the Macs
> became really popular. MS became *evil*.

I think it happened earlier than that. I was finding
and working around bugs and design flaws in MS-DOS
before the Mac came out. But I agree that in the CP/M
days Microsoft was a relatively decent company that
then turned evil.

> Gates was/is a superior programmer -

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. He was/is
a mediocre programmer who built his reputation on tricks
that would get a programmer fired in a Real-World environment.
At least until he got his hooks into the industry, because...

> unfortunately he also became a very savvy,
> sociopathic, BIZ GUY .......

....to the point where the board had to ease him out of the
top slot because he was becoming an embarrassment to the
company.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

​Meh. I'm still pretty apathetic to machine learning. It's
consistently less effective to brute-force solutions with ML than to
determine the solutions through clever, creative, wise human thought.
--
⚗︎ | /blu.mɛin.dʰak/ | shortens to "Hawk" | he/him/his/himself/Mr.
bluemanedhawk.github.io
Bitches stole my whole ass ␔🭖᷿᪳𝼗᷍⏧𒒫𐻾ࣛ↉�⃣ quoted-printable, can't
have shit in Thunderbird 😩

On 2/6/23 1:18 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-02-06, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:
>
>> Now there WAS a time when MS was relatively benign.
>> It was seen as a sort of industry hero. Most all was
>> free or almost free. That changed when the Macs
>> became really popular. MS became *evil*.
>
> I think it happened earlier than that. I was finding
> and working around bugs and design flaws in MS-DOS
> before the Mac came out. But I agree that in the CP/M
> days Microsoft was a relatively decent company that
> then turned evil.

Originally the OS and some fairly decent tools
were "affordable" and they weren't all obsessed
about people "stealing" them. But that DID change -
not all at once, but progressively. Gates began
to acquire an 'empire' and that DOES change yer
thinking (almost always for the worse).

>
>> Gates was/is a superior programmer -
>
> We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. He was/is
> a mediocre programmer who built his reputation on tricks
> that would get a programmer fired in a Real-World environment.
> At least until he got his hooks into the industry, because...

Well, what you might call "tricks" I might call "brilliant" :-)

I've done enough embedded to appreciate the art of cramming
a lot of function into a teenie-tiny space using every possible
hardware/software quirk. That's kinda the universe of young
Gates - 8008's or less such with pitiful specs.

And a lot of those "tricks" live on - and not just in MS
systems.

Search around a bit and you CAN find ads from people selling
"advanced office computer workstations" based on the 8080 ...
they used up a rather large ugly office desk. You could
splurge (impress your rivals !) by buying the DUAL 8"
FLOPPY UNIT and a whopping 32kb of RAM :-) I think most
were S-100 units.

https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Intel_8080_Advertisement_May_1974.jpg

or the IMSAI 8080

or try http://bluefaqs.com/2009/09/35-vintage-tech-ads/

>> unfortunately he also became a very savvy,
>> sociopathic, BIZ GUY .......
>
> ...to the point where the board had to ease him out of the
> top slot because he was becoming an embarrassment to the
> company.

That MAY have been the reason. However I doubt it because
The Company has become much more evil since Gates kinda
left the picture. Win-11 is pure BigBrotherWare. I cringe
every time I need to set up some new hire with it so they
can have their precious Word and Excel LIKE EVERY NORMAL
BIZ PERSON USES .........

Aaaaauuuggghhhh !

On 2/6/23 5:38 PM, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
>
> ​Meh.  I'm still pretty apathetic to machine learning.  It's
> consistently less effective to brute-force solutions with ML than to
> determine the solutions through clever, creative, wise human thought.

Alas, I think that's starting to change. The "AI"s seem
more savvy at "Lego" programs - taking a vague-ish
description of what's needed and stacking functional
modules together to achieve the effect.

With 64-bit processors and loads of cheap RAM/storage
that may put them over the top. Doesn't matter if it's
less efficient, so long as the "AI"s are CHEAPER THAN
HUMAN PROGRAMMERS WHO USE ALL THOSE TERMS NOBODY
UNDERSTANDS TO THWART YOUR GOALS OF SELLING SUPERCRAPWARE
AND RISING IN THE COMPANY.

On 2023-02-07, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:

> On 2/6/23 1:18 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2023-02-06, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Gates was/is a superior programmer -
>>
>> We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. He was/is
>> a mediocre programmer who built his reputation on tricks
>> that would get a programmer fired in a Real-World environment.
>> At least until he got his hooks into the industry, because...
>
> Well, what you might call "tricks" I might call "brilliant" :-)
>
> I've done enough embedded to appreciate the art of cramming
> a lot of function into a teenie-tiny space using every possible
> hardware/software quirk. That's kinda the universe of young
> Gates - 8008's or less such with pitiful specs.
>
> And a lot of those "tricks" live on - and not just in MS
> systems.

Been there, done that. I've written code that I'm not too proud
of, and I've maintained code that goes over the top in cleverness.
If I can find another way to squeeze a few bytes I'll untangle
as much of it as I can. And there's no way I'd let clever but
obfuscated code stand when porting it to a system with enough
memory to do it in a straightforward fashion.

Clever tricks will bite you sooner or later. Or maybe they'll
bite the next person who has to maintain it. But if you're a
consultant who has collected your money and headed off down
the road, you're probably not too worried about that -
especially if you're someone like Gates.

> or the IMSAI 8080

I still have mine - gotta figure how to find or fake
a 2708 with the boot code that has rotted away.

>>> unfortunately he also became a very savvy,
>>> sociopathic, BIZ GUY .......
>>
>> ...to the point where the board had to ease him out of the
>> top slot because he was becoming an embarrassment to the
>> company.
>
> That MAY have been the reason. However I doubt it because
> The Company has become much more evil since Gates kinda
> left the picture.

I can believe both simultaneously. Maybe the board changed
composition in the meantime. Or maybe they were just waiting
for the chance to screw the industry themselves.

> Win-11 is pure BigBrotherWare.

That's why I've done what I can to stick with XP. I've heard
that Win7 wasn't too bad, but we've always had bad chemistry
for some reason.

> I cringe
> every time I need to set up some new hire with it so they
> can have their precious Word and Excel LIKE EVERY NORMAL
> BIZ PERSON USES .........

For my needs, LibreOffice is much nicer. At least I can
pull up a CSV file and have the columns come out with decent
widths without having to manually invoke that hilariously-named
"autofit" feature.

> Aaaaauuuggghhhh !

I feel your pain.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:
> On 2/6/23 5:38 PM, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
>>
>> ?Meh.  I'm still pretty apathetic to machine learning.  It's
>> consistently less effective to brute-force solutions with ML than to
>> determine the solutions through clever, creative, wise human
>> thought.
>
> Alas, I think that's starting to change. The "AI"s seem more savvy
> at "Lego" programs - taking a vague-ish description of what's
> needed and stacking functional modules together to achieve the
> effect.
>
> With 64-bit processors and loads of cheap RAM/storage that may put
> them over the top. Doesn't matter if it's less efficient, so long
> as the "AI"s are CHEAPER THAN HUMAN PROGRAMMERS WHO USE ALL THOSE
> TERMS NOBODY UNDERSTANDS TO THWART YOUR GOALS OF SELLING
> SUPERCRAPWARE AND RISING IN THE COMPANY.

What is more likely to happen is the AI's will allow an entire
population of people who can't create a program now (even stringing
'modules' together in Bash) to create programs. The results will
likely be rough and dirty, but for those folks will mostly achieve
their desired goal (provided everything aligns properly).

I.e., AI will allow all the Excel jockeys to actually create more than
'Excel programs'.

For the more crafted programs that do more than "abort" when their
inputs don't match *exactly* their expectations, those will likely still
require someone with actual programming skill to create them.

On 2/7/23 8:59 AM, Rich wrote:
> 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:
>> On 2/6/23 5:38 PM, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
>>>
>>> ?Meh.  I'm still pretty apathetic to machine learning.  It's
>>> consistently less effective to brute-force solutions with ML than to
>>> determine the solutions through clever, creative, wise human
>>> thought.
>>
>> Alas, I think that's starting to change. The "AI"s seem more savvy
>> at "Lego" programs - taking a vague-ish description of what's
>> needed and stacking functional modules together to achieve the
>> effect.
>>
>> With 64-bit processors and loads of cheap RAM/storage that may put
>> them over the top. Doesn't matter if it's less efficient, so long
>> as the "AI"s are CHEAPER THAN HUMAN PROGRAMMERS WHO USE ALL THOSE
>> TERMS NOBODY UNDERSTANDS TO THWART YOUR GOALS OF SELLING
>> SUPERCRAPWARE AND RISING IN THE COMPANY.
>
> What is more likely to happen is the AI's will allow an entire
> population of people who can't create a program now (even stringing
> 'modules' together in Bash) to create programs. The results will
> likely be rough and dirty, but for those folks will mostly achieve
> their desired goal (provided everything aligns properly).

Oh, I understand (won't be TOO long before nobody does) - BUT,
if SuperCrapWare is super-CHEAPWare, with no annoying and
expensive humans in the loop anymore, it WILL prevail. That's
economics.

> I.e., AI will allow all the Excel jockeys to actually create more than
> 'Excel programs'.
>
> For the more crafted programs that do more than "abort" when their
> inputs don't match *exactly* their expectations, those will likely still
> require someone with actual programming skill to create them.

I think the "AI" programs are already a bit beyond such
problems. It's just a matter of sticking the right "Lego"
bits together. Removing expensive and annoying humans from
software development is a sort of Holy Grail for the
management types. They want it, the economics favor it,
so it WILL BE - probably sooner than you think. BIG MONEY
entities like MS/Goog are behind this 101%

Ah, today, it's announced BING will be incorporating
ChatGPT utility very soon. No longer JUST a "search
engine", but an "engine of creation" too. This is
barely a few WEEKS since the news that M$ had greatly
increased its ownership in ChatGPT .....

So, what ELSE can be turned into ChatGPT "creative
narratives" ??? Not just programming. I suspect it
will be a major component in all the bots that
replace idiot/costly human workers.

The point ALWAYS ignored ... if you put all the
humans out of a job, who's gonna BUY what your
"AI" systems produce - from McBurgers on up ???

I have a suspicion that there's a "dead zone", a
point where you CAN'T get from a human-labor
economy to an "AI"-labor-based economy. Not
enough human money left to push the "AI" stuff
into practical existence.

MIGHT be kinder-n-gentler ways around that, but
real corps ain't gonna use them.

Oh well, I'll get my MediCare and SS cards in
just a short time. I'll be The Voting Group they
all have to cater to - and yes I'm a paying AARP
member. But what about the REST of you - esp
the 30s/40s/50s segment ????????

On 2/6/23 1:17 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-02-06, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2/5/23 11:34 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> The other day I went to the bank to activate a credit card,
>>> since I couldn't get it to work on their web site. The clerk
>>> asked me which browser I was using, pointing out that they only
>>> support Edge and Chrome. When I told him I used Firefox, he
>>> replied, "Never heard of it." But I got him to walk through the
>>> activation procedure on his own terminal (which worked fine, of
>>> course, since he was using Edge). At least I had the satisfaction
>>> of wasting the bank's time rather than them wasting mine.
>>
>> "Never heard" of Firefox ??? Bull. It's been around
>> for longer than Chrome and a LOT longer than Edge.
>> It's just a dodge for an inferior web page.
>
> You know that. I know that. But the bank turns a blind eye -
> although I'm sure that up in head office someone is rubbing
> his hands with glee. I'm going to make it a policy from now
> on to go to the bank and waste their time if their web site
> acts up.

Careful ... at some point they'll "cancel" you.

>>> Oh no - M$ makes enough stupid design decisions on their own;
>>> who knows what crap an AI will come up with.
>>
>> Doesn't matter - they'll COMPEL people to use it. They
>> have the clout ... and nobody, despite all the MS BS,
>> rebels. They made everybody buy newer PCs for Win-11,
>> a HUGE expense, and BET they repeat that for Win-12.
>> MS has clearly bought-in to the main PC makers and
>> PROFIT$ when new hardware is required. Nobody blinks
>> an eye.
>
> On the other hand, there'll be plenty of cheap hardware
> available that I can run Linux on.

M$ will continue its war against -IX systems.

For awhile -IX will find ways to prevail, but I
suspect that can't be forever. It's economics,
clout, number of politicians bought .......

Linus isn't greasing lots of pols. Bill learned,
he didn't. Sorry, but righteousness/reason do
NOT prevail. MONEY prevails.

>>> And still our governments are obsessed with increasing our
>>> population as quickly as possible. What are these people going
>>> to do, aside from going psychotic and shooting each other?
>>
>> (Western) govts HAVE A PROBLEM. Look up the fecundity
>> rates. Even the USA is now below the pop replacement
>> rate. I think Japan is worst off. "Success" means you
>> don't have to have nine kids to support/defend you.
>
> Horrors! We might finally develop the resources to take care of
> the people we already have. (I know, it's a dream, but we all
> need our fantasies.)

No, we will NOT find ways to "develop resources to take care
of the people we already have" ... it's impossible. Wise up

They will gear to the "new wage-slave" class.

>> BUT - 'welfare' states DEPEND on ripping-off future gens
>> to support the bread and circuses for the CURRENT gens.
>> To fail at that is political DISASTER (broader disaster,
>> who cares so long as the pols are pop eh). Did you wonder
>> why the US (and EU) are ignoring massive illegal immigration ?
>> THAT is why. They need a whole new class of wage slaves to
>> pay TAXES to float all the "free money" stuff.
>
> Here in Canada we've gone the other way, and are trying to push
> immigration rates up as fast as we can.

For the exact reasons I've stated.

> For the past 20 years
> or so, we've been bringing in between 200,000 and 250,000 people
> a year. For the last couple of years it's been over 400,000.
> (Multiply by 10 to scale it to U.S. levels.) Most of these people
> go straight to Vancouver or Toronto, both of which are becoming
> crowded, noisy, and among the most expensive places in the world
> to live. In other words, paradise for the politicians.

Yep, paradise for pols ... but HELL for everyone else.
However they WILL find angles to make it SEEM different.

>> As for "going psycho" ... yea, it's a problem. The social/cultural
>> disintegration was "in-progress" (usually with Chinese backing
>> somewhere in there) but COVID lockdowns amplified the problem
>> quite abruptly. Way too many people CAN'T COPE anymore and
>> either go psycho or go Mad Max. Dunno if there's any real
>> fix beyond hard-ass fascists - and that has a lot of issues
>> as well.
>
> Yes, but corporate fascism seems to be gaining hold.

"Corporate fanaticism" has been around for 150 years
at least. The 1890's made it most obvious. Since then
they've obscured it. Plenty of whitewash.

The Wokies are, they think, anti-corporate/anti-capitalist.
They don't see how they are being USED both by capitalist
interests AND our enemies. Maybe they'll "get it" when
they're really old, maybe, but meanwhile fanaticism
blinds them. Loads of rhetoric, no wisdom, no insight,
can't/won't even add up the columns of numbers.

My immediate worry though is the "going psycho"/"Mad Max"
angle. It seems people in western civ's just CAN'T COPE
anymore. There will be many forms of "suicide" involved
in this. The latest is the "Great Resignation" ... people
just QUITTING - and, for the moment, finding ways for
the State to support them. But that can't last long ....

And AFTER ... oh wow .............

MEANWHILE, "AI" will increasingly genocide "people
jobs". Let's see how those economics work out ... :-)

This means that technically ChatGPT is a programming language. Not a
very reliable one though.

Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:
> This means that technically ChatGPT is a programming language. Not a
> very reliable one though.

Yes it occours to me that the only way it can really be more than a
continuously-changing, undocumented, programming language, is if
you get a human-like two-way exchange with it. Something like:
"You mean like this?", "yeah, but so it does this when you do
that and that", "but then what happens when that is this?", "oh,
well then we'll have to do this before that and that". In other
words the AI actually has to be intelligent, not just a way of
shuffling code found on GitHub.

But it might get there eventually.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On 2023-02-08, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:

> On 2/7/23 8:59 AM, Rich wrote:
>
>> What is more likely to happen is the AI's will allow an entire
>> population of people who can't create a program now (even stringing
>> 'modules' together in Bash) to create programs. The results will
>> likely be rough and dirty, but for those folks will mostly achieve
>> their desired goal (provided everything aligns properly).

The phrase "script kiddies" comes to mind.

> Oh, I understand (won't be TOO long before nobody does) - BUT,
> if SuperCrapWare is super-CHEAPWare, with no annoying and
> expensive humans in the loop anymore, it WILL prevail. That's
> economics.

There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot
make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the
people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.
-- John Ruskin (1819-1900)

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

On 2023-02-06, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:
>
> As well as producing convincing text in English, ChatGPT can
> also write computer code in languages such as Python.
>
>

Yes it does but does it solves the problems, is able to solve real life
problems?

On 2/8/23 1:49 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:
>> This means that technically ChatGPT is a programming language. Not a
>> very reliable one though.
>
> Yes it occours to me that the only way it can really be more than a
> continuously-changing, undocumented, programming language, is if
> you get a human-like two-way exchange with it. Something like:
> "You mean like this?", "yeah, but so it does this when you do
> that and that", "but then what happens when that is this?", "oh,
> well then we'll have to do this before that and that". In other
> words the AI actually has to be intelligent, not just a way of
> shuffling code found on GitHub.
>
> But it might get there eventually.

I suspect it will "get there" a lot sooner than
you'd like to believe. HUGE money is going into
this stuff.

"LegoWare" isn't all so alien. What happens if you
need to write a pgm, 'C' or Python or whatever ?
You know what the pgm needs to do, and then go
hunting for ways to reach that goal. You'll goog
(or Duck if yer smarter) to find libs that can
collect clients IP addr/info, create sockets or
whatever and add them to your pgm.

NONE of us truly "write from scratch" anymore - like
assembler (unless you do embedded with TEENY little
microcontrollers). We rely on the inbuilt and add-on
routines provided by "somebodies" who have (hopefully)
studied the particular little issue far more than we
have. Like medicine or most of the sciences or most
ANYTHING with depth and breadth these days NOBODY knows
it all - "specialism/ists" rule. You lego their stuff
together to achieve your desired outcome.

Now neat tricks to speed along dealing with the intermediate
info ... humans ARE still better at that, but it CAN be done,
even if inefficiently, by the "lego" approach.

Inefficient DOES NOT MATTER if the product involves fewer
or no annoying expensive humans in the chain. It'll be
cheaper & easier for the pointy-haired bosses so they
WILL go that route as fast as they can. M$ and friends
are more than willing to help out ........

Hmmm ... why ARE the M$/Chat/etc programmers 'suicidal' ???

On 2/7/23 12:50 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-02-07, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2/6/23 1:18 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-02-06, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gates was/is a superior programmer -
>>>
>>> We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. He was/is
>>> a mediocre programmer who built his reputation on tricks
>>> that would get a programmer fired in a Real-World environment.
>>> At least until he got his hooks into the industry, because...
>>
>> Well, what you might call "tricks" I might call "brilliant" :-)
>>
>> I've done enough embedded to appreciate the art of cramming
>> a lot of function into a teenie-tiny space using every possible
>> hardware/software quirk. That's kinda the universe of young
>> Gates - 8008's or less such with pitiful specs.
>>
>> And a lot of those "tricks" live on - and not just in MS
>> systems.
>
> Been there, done that. I've written code that I'm not too proud
> of, and I've maintained code that goes over the top in cleverness.
> If I can find another way to squeeze a few bytes I'll untangle
> as much of it as I can. And there's no way I'd let clever but
> obfuscated code stand when porting it to a system with enough
> memory to do it in a straightforward fashion.
>
> Clever tricks will bite you sooner or later. Or maybe they'll
> bite the next person who has to maintain it. But if you're a
> consultant who has collected your money and headed off down
> the road, you're probably not too worried about that -
> especially if you're someone like Gates.
>
>> or the IMSAI 8080
>
> I still have mine - gotta figure how to find or fake
> a 2708 with the boot code that has rotted away.

https://www.nteinc.com/specs/2700to2799/pdf/nte2708.pdf
https://groups.io/g/AltairComputerClub/topic/81091122
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/replace-2708-eprom-with-an-arduino.1225897/
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254772475431

Good luck finding the old boot code.

>>>> unfortunately he also became a very savvy,
>>>> sociopathic, BIZ GUY .......
>>>
>>> ...to the point where the board had to ease him out of the
>>> top slot because he was becoming an embarrassment to the
>>> company.
>>
>> That MAY have been the reason. However I doubt it because
>> The Company has become much more evil since Gates kinda
>> left the picture.
>
> I can believe both simultaneously. Maybe the board changed
> composition in the meantime. Or maybe they were just waiting
> for the chance to screw the industry themselves.
>
>> Win-11 is pure BigBrotherWare.
>
> That's why I've done what I can to stick with XP. I've heard
> that Win7 wasn't too bad, but we've always had bad chemistry
> for some reason.

7 still works kinda OK, not as junky as 10 or 11. XP is
really about as far as you wanna go with Win, Now way on
back I was looking through the Win2k registry and, gee,
there were NSA keys in there - plainly labeled too ....

I keep 2k and XP in VM's for those rare times something
about them is needed - tends to be web interfaces for
devices that require Win plugins or nothin'. Between
WINE and VirtualBox I'd rather use VirtualBox.

>> I cringe
>> every time I need to set up some new hire with it so they
>> can have their precious Word and Excel LIKE EVERY NORMAL
>> BIZ PERSON USES .........
>
> For my needs, LibreOffice is much nicer. At least I can
> pull up a CSV file and have the columns come out with decent
> widths without having to manually invoke that hilariously-named
> "autofit" feature.
>
>> Aaaaauuuggghhhh !
>
> I feel your pain.

On 2023-02-10, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:

> On 2/7/23 12:50 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2023-02-07, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:
>>
>>> or the IMSAI 8080
>>
>> I still have mine - gotta figure how to find or fake
>> a 2708 with the boot code that has rotted away.
>
> https://www.nteinc.com/specs/2700to2799/pdf/nte2708.pdf
> https://groups.io/g/AltairComputerClub/topic/81091122
> https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/replace-2708-eprom-with-an-arduino.1225897/
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/254772475431

Thanks for the links. It'd be nice to get it going again -
there's some stuff on my 8-inch floppies I'd like to copy.

> Good luck finding the old boot code.

I should have listings somewhere...

>>> Win-11 is pure BigBrotherWare.
>>
>> That's why I've done what I can to stick with XP. I've heard
>> that Win7 wasn't too bad, but we've always had bad chemistry
>> for some reason.
>
> 7 still works kinda OK, not as junky as 10 or 11. XP is
> really about as far as you wanna go with Win,

I agree, and have managed to continue making a living on XP.
The laptop I'm writing this on came with Win7; I shrank its
partition and loaded Debian onto it, leaving a dual-boot
configuration. I seldom boot W7, although if I could figure
out how to get VirtualBox to access its partition it would
make life easier sometimes.

> Now way on
> back I was looking through the Win2k registry and, gee,
> there were NSA keys in there - plainly labeled too ....

They've been pulling their shenanigans for a long time:

- Win95 Registration Troj^H^H^H^HWizard
- Win98 Java extensions (smacked down HARD by Sun)
- Win2K's attempt to break Samba servers by sending
them an invalid command and refusing to connect
if the error message wasn't worded exactly the
way a Microsoft server would word it (took the
open source community about two days to patch
the Samba server to spoof a M$ server)

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

On 10/02/2023 18:59, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-02-10, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2/7/23 12:50 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-02-07, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> or the IMSAI 8080
>>>
>>> I still have mine - gotta figure how to find or fake
>>> a 2708 with the boot code that has rotted away.
>>
>> https://www.nteinc.com/specs/2700to2799/pdf/nte2708.pdf
>> https://groups.io/g/AltairComputerClub/topic/81091122
>> https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/replace-2708-eprom-with-an-arduino.1225897/
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/254772475431
>
> Thanks for the links. It'd be nice to get it going again -
> there's some stuff on my 8-inch floppies I'd like to copy.
>
>> Good luck finding the old boot code.
>
> I should have listings somewhere...
>
>>>> Win-11 is pure BigBrotherWare.
>>>
>>> That's why I've done what I can to stick with XP. I've heard
>>> that Win7 wasn't too bad, but we've always had bad chemistry
>>> for some reason.
>>
>> 7 still works kinda OK, not as junky as 10 or 11. XP is
>> really about as far as you wanna go with Win,
>
> I agree, and have managed to continue making a living on XP.
> The laptop I'm writing this on came with Win7; I shrank its
> partition and loaded Debian onto it, leaving a dual-boot
> configuration. I seldom boot W7, although if I could figure
> out how to get VirtualBox to access its partition it would
> make life easier sometimes.
>
>> Now way on
>> back I was looking through the Win2k registry and, gee,
>> there were NSA keys in there - plainly labeled too ....
>
> They've been pulling their shenanigans for a long time:
>
> - Win95 Registration Troj^H^H^H^HWizard
> - Win98 Java extensions (smacked down HARD by Sun)
> - Win2K's attempt to break Samba servers by sending
> them an invalid command and refusing to connect
> if the error message wasn't worded exactly the
> way a Microsoft server would word it (took the
> open source community about two days to patch
> the Samba server to spoof a M$ server)
>
Not impossible if you have an assembler and a ROM burner to write your own.
--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

On 2/10/23 1:59 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-02-10, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2/7/23 12:50 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-02-07, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> or the IMSAI 8080
>>>
>>> I still have mine - gotta figure how to find or fake
>>> a 2708 with the boot code that has rotted away.
>>
>> https://www.nteinc.com/specs/2700to2799/pdf/nte2708.pdf
>> https://groups.io/g/AltairComputerClub/topic/81091122
>> https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/replace-2708-eprom-with-an-arduino.1225897/
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/254772475431
>
> Thanks for the links. It'd be nice to get it going again -
> there's some stuff on my 8-inch floppies I'd like to copy.

Does anyone even sell 8" floppies anymore (much
LESS 8" drives) ??? Hey, I'll check Amazon for
an external USB 8" floppy unit :-)

I have a dozen of the things, but NO WAY to read
them. Hardware obsolescence is a BIGGIE - even the
National Archives are is a panic. Not to mention
all that important NASA stuff stored on on-off
devices in one-off file systems in undocumented
encoding formats ..........

>> Good luck finding the old boot code.
>
> I should have listings somewhere...

Hope. SOMETIMES you get lucky.

Found disk images for my Apple-II (dual disk)
unit. Now I've gotta decide whether to risk
turning it on - the caps may go up in flames
and take everything else with them. Have an
LSI-11 unit ... some PAPER caps in it. They
WILL go up in flames fer-sure. MAJOR re-
soldering job there .....

What DISAPPEARED on me was VMS images. The
people offering them for free DON'T anymore.
I really liked VMS ... super-capable, geared
for multi-user international biz/science even
over super-crap modems back in the day.

>
>>>> Win-11 is pure BigBrotherWare.
>>>
>>> That's why I've done what I can to stick with XP. I've heard
>>> that Win7 wasn't too bad, but we've always had bad chemistry
>>> for some reason.
>>
>> 7 still works kinda OK, not as junky as 10 or 11. XP is
>> really about as far as you wanna go with Win,
>
> I agree, and have managed to continue making a living on XP.
> The laptop I'm writing this on came with Win7; I shrank its
> partition and loaded Debian onto it, leaving a dual-boot
> configuration. I seldom boot W7, although if I could figure
> out how to get VirtualBox to access its partition it would
> make life easier sometimes.

Though all my boxes use Linux's ... I just CANNOT be
100% free of Win. I've users that only use Win and
I have to port over apps. 'C' and Lazarus and Python
make that kinda easy - but I *have* to micro-tweak
them for Win.

Lucky nobody's still using CP/M :-)

>> Now way on
>> back I was looking through the Win2k registry and, gee,
>> there were NSA keys in there - plainly labeled too ....
>
> They've been pulling their shenanigans for a long time:

Pretty much since the beginning. SOME say there are
backdoors even in Win-3.11.

Gates was threatened with anti-trust - and he very
quickly learned to GREASE his politicians.

> - Win95 Registration Troj^H^H^H^HWizard
> - Win98 Java extensions (smacked down HARD by Sun)
> - Win2K's attempt to break Samba servers by sending
> them an invalid command and refusing to connect
> if the error message wasn't worded exactly the
> way a Microsoft server would word it (took the
> open source community about two days to patch
> the Samba server to spoof a M$ server)

M$ just IS gonna make it harder and harder to get around
them. They have unlimited money. Their OTHER scheme is
to "infiltrate" Linux/Unix ... keep adding modules/apps/
code-snippets until their stuff is integral/INDISPENSIBLE
in the -IX universe. Then they OWN it, or at least can
unleash the lawyers to DESTROY it.

M$, like Apple, IS slowly drifting towards an -IX underlying
system because it just HAS to. However they'll wanna completely
OWN that universe and have the legal power/$$$ to overwhelm
any opposition.

Time for a "New Unix" - something Bill CAN'T claim ???

On 2023-02-11, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:

> Found disk images for my Apple-II (dual disk)
> unit. Now I've gotta decide whether to risk
> turning it on - the caps may go up in flames
> and take everything else with them. Have an
> LSI-11 unit ... some PAPER caps in it. They
> WILL go up in flames fer-sure. MAJOR re-
> soldering job there .....

Try re-forming the capacitors. My IMSAI had been sitting
for 20 years, so after sweeping out the mouse droppings
I unhooked the big electrolytics in that good old 28-amp
power supply, then took a battery and a suitable resistor
and slowly charged and discharged them. I hooked them
up again, crossed my fingers, flipped the power switch,
and it came right up.

> Though all my boxes use Linux's ... I just CANNOT be
> 100% free of Win. I've users that only use Win and
> I have to port over apps. 'C' and Lazarus and Python
> make that kinda easy - but I *have* to micro-tweak
> them for Win.

Our customers are pretty much 100% Windows, although a
few daring ones are using Linux, and the ports I've been
maintaining came in handy. Fortunately for me I do mostly
back-end stuff, so someone else can worry about the eye
candy; I just sit in the background, talk with the rest
of the system via sockets, and ensure that the design of
the internals remains logical.

> M$ just IS gonna make it harder and harder to get around
> them. They have unlimited money. Their OTHER scheme is
> to "infiltrate" Linux/Unix ... keep adding modules/apps/
> code-snippets until their stuff is integral/INDISPENSIBLE
> in the -IX universe. Then they OWN it, or at least can
> unleash the lawyers to DESTROY it.

Embrace, extend, extinguish... just one more "innovation"
that they didn't invent, PR flacks notwithstanding. Hopefully
the Linux stalwarts will ensure that alternatives remain -
and Apple has gotten inconveniently large and hard to kill,
which wasn't in Bill's plan at all.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

On 2/11/23 1:07 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-02-11, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noaada.net> wrote:
>
>> Found disk images for my Apple-II (dual disk)
>> unit. Now I've gotta decide whether to risk
>> turning it on - the caps may go up in flames
>> and take everything else with them. Have an
>> LSI-11 unit ... some PAPER caps in it. They
>> WILL go up in flames fer-sure. MAJOR re-
>> soldering job there .....
>
> Try re-forming the capacitors. My IMSAI had been sitting
> for 20 years, so after sweeping out the mouse droppings
> I unhooked the big electrolytics in that good old 28-amp
> power supply, then took a battery and a suitable resistor
> and slowly charged and discharged them. I hooked them
> up again, crossed my fingers, flipped the power switch,
> and it came right up.

I know it can work - but for some of these old
boxes there are a LOT of caps. Maybe after I
retire ....

>> Though all my boxes use Linux's ... I just CANNOT be
>> 100% free of Win. I've users that only use Win and
>> I have to port over apps. 'C' and Lazarus and Python
>> make that kinda easy - but I *have* to micro-tweak
>> them for Win.
>
> Our customers are pretty much 100% Windows, although a
> few daring ones are using Linux, and the ports I've been
> maintaining came in handy. Fortunately for me I do mostly
> back-end stuff, so someone else can worry about the eye
> candy; I just sit in the background, talk with the rest
> of the system via sockets, and ensure that the design of
> the internals remains logical.

The users will NEVER be happy about the "look & feel", so
you're better off with the engines the GUI makes use of.

>> M$ just IS gonna make it harder and harder to get around
>> them. They have unlimited money. Their OTHER scheme is
>> to "infiltrate" Linux/Unix ... keep adding modules/apps/
>> code-snippets until their stuff is integral/INDISPENSIBLE
>> in the -IX universe. Then they OWN it, or at least can
>> unleash the lawyers to DESTROY it.
>
> Embrace, extend, extinguish... just one more "innovation"
> that they didn't invent, PR flacks notwithstanding. Hopefully
> the Linux stalwarts will ensure that alternatives remain -
> and Apple has gotten inconveniently large and hard to kill,
> which wasn't in Bill's plan at all.

Oh, I dunno ..... M$ owns a fair percentage of Apple (and
probably vice-versa). As such they APPEAR to be competitors
but it's really just one mega-corp.

My concern is their "infiltration" (and their army of lawyers).
Won't be long before they CAN claim some kind of ownership of
Linux, maybe extending to the kernel. Linus won't be on the
scene forever and without his anal vision EXPECT the kernel to
import more and more M$ bits and pieces. As such, as I've
said here before, the Capable People need to get started on
a TOTALLY non-M$ take on Unix/Linux - something pure and just
different enough so they can NEVER lay claim.

I've mentioned OS-9 here before ... a fairly "Unix-Like" OS
from the old days (brags about being much more efficient and
is STILL sold). Perhaps a functional, legally unique, clone
of that blown up into a modern 64-bit OS ... ???