Quite long at 40mins* but I found it interesting as although I kinda
knew about skin betting this fleshed out some of the details in
particular about how Steam can be seen to be complicity in it and also
some of shady practices employed.

Besides the normal points of why can this not be seen as gambling,
considering the normal sticking point for lootboxes is that the content
has no real world value when CS:GO Skins clearly do, something that I
don't think is normally mentioned is the issue of what is effectively
gambling is being inserted into computer games via the backdoor. There's
loads of sites you can go to if you want to gamble online and have the
advantage of the safe guards of gambling regulation in place. What do
gamers get out of it?

*When did 40mins become a long time, youth of today I tell you**

**And yes I am joking about the last part.

On 22/02/2024 09:56, JAB wrote:
> Quite long at 40mins* but I found it interesting as although I kinda
> knew about skin betting this fleshed out some of the details in
> particular about how Steam can be seen to be complicity in it and also
> some of shady practices employed.
>
> Besides the normal points of why can this not be seen as gambling,
> considering the normal sticking point for lootboxes is that the content
> has no real world value when CS:GO Skins clearly do, something that I
> don't think is normally mentioned is the issue of what is effectively
> gambling is being inserted into computer games via the backdoor. There's
> loads of sites you can go to if you want to gamble online and have the
> advantage of the safe guards of gambling regulation in place. What do
> gamers get out of it?
>
> *When did 40mins become a long time, youth of today I tell you**
>
> **And yes I am joking about the last part.

Well I suppose I should include the link ... doohhh!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqHxVu-QaLg

On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 10:01:39 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:

>On 22/02/2024 09:56, JAB wrote:
>> Quite long at 40mins* but I found it interesting as although I kinda
>> knew about skin betting this fleshed out some of the details in
>> particular about how Steam can be seen to be complicity in it and also
>> some of shady practices employed.
>>
>> Besides the normal points of why can this not be seen as gambling,
>> considering the normal sticking point for lootboxes is that the content
>> has no real world value when CS:GO Skins clearly do, something that I
>> don't think is normally mentioned is the issue of what is effectively
>> gambling is being inserted into computer games via the backdoor. There's
>> loads of sites you can go to if you want to gamble online and have the
>> advantage of the safe guards of gambling regulation in place. What do
>> gamers get out of it?
>>
>> *When did 40mins become a long time, youth of today I tell you**
>>
>> **And yes I am joking about the last part.
>
>Well I suppose I should include the link ... doohhh!
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqHxVu-QaLg

There was a similar video* about this released a couple years ago
(that we discussed here in Nov 2022 if you want to go back and revisit
what we said). It's a long-known issue not only with modern video
gambling problem, but Valve's complicity with it. Still, it's an issue
worth highlighting again (and again, and again, and again... until
something finally gets done!), so thank you for alerting us to this
video.

Still, as I said, this is a known issue. Newell and co. certainly know
about all this. Steam probably wouldn't be as successful if not for
gambling. They are definitely profiting from it. Steam could crack
down on it; they could make changes to prevent it. But it would cost
them billions of dollars. Every time a skin is sold - whether
legitimately or as a 'chip' used by a gambling site, Valve gets a cut.
So they pretend not to know anything about it, and when informed, do
the absolute minimum until the public shifts it attention elsewhere.

Some countries have - rightly - classified all this as gambling, and
restricted as such - and, lo and behold, Valve has found ways to make
it harder for people in those regions to engage in gambling. (Sadly,
VPNs make it hard to keep natives from engaging with the websites).
But outside of those jurisdictions, Valve pretends they are innocents
who have no way of stopping the problem.

It's actually worse than the video above states. It's one thing to
gamble; it's a predatory habit that can destroy lives. Even adults
have problems resisting the lure. But children are even more
vulnerable... and the websites themselves are specifically designed to
be attractive to the younger set. The sites are made to look live
video games, and purposely designed to hide the monetary cost of the
games to the player.

Valve is often held up as the savior of PC gaming; that under its
conservatorship, PC gaming has become a viable platform despite the
popularity of the Playstation and XBox. And in some ways this is true.
Valve hasn't, like many other publishers, been overly restrictive with
the games it sells. You don't, unlike with Ubisoft or EA, see Valve
regularly pulling games a few years old from sale or shutting down
servers on older games. Valve's open market has helped to promote
Indie publishers, and made 'long-tail' sales of older games a viable
market. But all these benefits are underwritten by Valve's own
addiction to profits gleaned by enabling gambling, and it's only due
to poor legislation (and a refusal to enforce what little legislation
there is) that Valve gets away with it.

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMmNy11Mn7g

On 2/22/24 09:33, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 10:01:39 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>
>> On 22/02/2024 09:56, JAB wrote:
>>> Quite long at 40mins* but I found it interesting as although I kinda
>>> knew about skin betting this fleshed out some of the details in
>>> particular about how Steam can be seen to be complicity in it and also
>>> some of shady practices employed.
>>>
>>> Besides the normal points of why can this not be seen as gambling,
>>> considering the normal sticking point for lootboxes is that the content
>>> has no real world value when CS:GO Skins clearly do, something that I
>>> don't think is normally mentioned is the issue of what is effectively
>>> gambling is being inserted into computer games via the backdoor. There's
>>> loads of sites you can go to if you want to gamble online and have the
>>> advantage of the safe guards of gambling regulation in place. What do
>>> gamers get out of it?
>>>
>>> *When did 40mins become a long time, youth of today I tell you**
>>>
>>> **And yes I am joking about the last part.
>>
>> Well I suppose I should include the link ... doohhh!
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqHxVu-QaLg
>
>
> There was a similar video* about this released a couple years ago
> (that we discussed here in Nov 2022 if you want to go back and revisit
> what we said). It's a long-known issue not only with modern video
> gambling problem, but Valve's complicity with it. Still, it's an issue
> worth highlighting again (and again, and again, and again... until
> something finally gets done!), so thank you for alerting us to this
> video.
>
> Still, as I said, this is a known issue. Newell and co. certainly know
> about all this. Steam probably wouldn't be as successful if not for
> gambling. They are definitely profiting from it. Steam could crack
> down on it; they could make changes to prevent it. But it would cost
> them billions of dollars. Every time a skin is sold - whether
> legitimately or as a 'chip' used by a gambling site, Valve gets a cut.
> So they pretend not to know anything about it, and when informed, do
> the absolute minimum until the public shifts it attention elsewhere.
>
> Some countries have - rightly - classified all this as gambling, and
> restricted as such - and, lo and behold, Valve has found ways to make
> it harder for people in those regions to engage in gambling. (Sadly,
> VPNs make it hard to keep natives from engaging with the websites).
> But outside of those jurisdictions, Valve pretends they are innocents
> who have no way of stopping the problem.
>
> It's actually worse than the video above states. It's one thing to
> gamble; it's a predatory habit that can destroy lives. Even adults
> have problems resisting the lure. But children are even more
> vulnerable... and the websites themselves are specifically designed to
> be attractive to the younger set. The sites are made to look live
> video games, and purposely designed to hide the monetary cost of the
> games to the player.
>
> Valve is often held up as the savior of PC gaming; that under its
> conservatorship, PC gaming has become a viable platform despite the
> popularity of the Playstation and XBox. And in some ways this is true.
> Valve hasn't, like many other publishers, been overly restrictive with
> the games it sells. You don't, unlike with Ubisoft or EA, see Valve
> regularly pulling games a few years old from sale or shutting down
> servers on older games. Valve's open market has helped to promote
> Indie publishers, and made 'long-tail' sales of older games a viable
> market. But all these benefits are underwritten by Valve's own
> addiction to profits gleaned by enabling gambling, and it's only due
> to poor legislation (and a refusal to enforce what little legislation
> there is) that Valve gets away with it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMmNy11Mn7g

Yeah, it does get a bit ridiculous sometimes. There's even remnants of a
similar system being in Portal 2 co-op (tf2 styled backpack and cosmetic
slots, though every item is either an event un-tradable or achievement
un-tradable)
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 22/02/2024 15:33, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> It's actually worse than the video above states. It's one thing to
> gamble; it's a predatory habit that can destroy lives. Even adults
> have problems resisting the lure. But children are even more
> vulnerable... and the websites themselves are specifically designed to
> be attractive to the younger set. The sites are made to look live
> video games, and purposely designed to hide the monetary cost of the
> games to the player.

Don't worry there will be someone along to tell you it's all the parents
responsibility even though we already ready have age restrictions laws
in-place for other activities and is it ok to exploit children if their
parents aren't responsible enough.

On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 09:54:00 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:

>On 22/02/2024 15:33, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>> It's actually worse than the video above states. It's one thing to
>> gamble; it's a predatory habit that can destroy lives. Even adults
>> have problems resisting the lure. But children are even more
>> vulnerable... and the websites themselves are specifically designed to
>> be attractive to the younger set. The sites are made to look live
>> video games, and purposely designed to hide the monetary cost of the
>> games to the player.
>
>Don't worry there will be someone along to tell you it's all the parents
>responsibility even though we already ready have age restrictions laws
>in-place for other activities and is it ok to exploit children if their
>parents aren't responsible enough.

To be sure, the parent's /aren't/ absolved of all responsibility, but
neither can the blame be laid entirely on them. The gambling has
become so common that even the most cautious of parents won't be able
to completely shield their children.

Even if the child isn't drawn into gambling directly, the messaging is
pernicious: that massive success is easily reached through a quick
bet. It's not just something pointed towards kids either, or isolated
to video games. It's becoming normalized throughout society. I've no
objection to gambling -- so long as it's done for its entertainment
value. But increasingly I see it used as... well, almost as financial
planning towards achieving goals, and that's worrying.

I mean, I get it. As the wealth gap increases - as people on the lower
rungs become more desperate, and the lifestyles of the ultra-wealthy
become ever more extravagent - gambling seems to be (and, quite
honestly, probably is) the only way for the average person to ever
achieve any sort of parity. I see the appeal. But it's not the panacea
it's made out to be. And it's disgusting how people that profit off of
this desperation hype up gambling as a solution.

(The other day I saw an advert for some app designed to aid people
involved with online sports betting. Paraphrased, the ad said: "This
app will let you more easily keep up with all the games and bets,
without worrying about not having enough time for your work and
family"... with the implication that there's really nothing WRONG when
your work and family play second fiddle to your gambling, but this app
will let you have both).

Sorry, am I ranting again? It's a topic that hits a chord with me.

On 23/02/2024 13:45, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 09:54:00 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>
>> On 22/02/2024 15:33, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>> It's actually worse than the video above states. It's one thing to
>>> gamble; it's a predatory habit that can destroy lives. Even adults
>>> have problems resisting the lure. But children are even more
>>> vulnerable... and the websites themselves are specifically designed to
>>> be attractive to the younger set. The sites are made to look live
>>> video games, and purposely designed to hide the monetary cost of the
>>> games to the player.
>>
>> Don't worry there will be someone along to tell you it's all the parents
>> responsibility even though we already ready have age restrictions laws
>> in-place for other activities and is it ok to exploit children if their
>> parents aren't responsible enough.
>
> To be sure, the parent's /aren't/ absolved of all responsibility, but
> neither can the blame be laid entirely on them. The gambling has
> become so common that even the most cautious of parents won't be able
> to completely shield their children.
>

I agree yes, parents do have a level of responsibility but they need to
be given the right information and tools to exercise that responsibility
and as companies have shown time and time again the only way to get them
to provide this is through regulation. Unfortunately some people seem to
think any regulation, however proportionate, is somehow an affront to
their civil liberties.

As a slight aside the episode of Black Mirror called Arkangel explores
the concept of totally surveillance of a child.

> Even if the child isn't drawn into gambling directly, the messaging is
> pernicious: that massive success is easily reached through a quick
> bet. It's not just something pointed towards kids either, or isolated
> to video games. It's becoming normalized throughout society. I've no
> objection to gambling -- so long as it's done for its entertainment
> value. But increasingly I see it used as... well, almost as financial
> planning towards achieving goals, and that's worrying.
>
> I mean, I get it. As the wealth gap increases - as people on the lower
> rungs become more desperate, and the lifestyles of the ultra-wealthy
> become ever more extravagent - gambling seems to be (and, quite
> honestly, probably is) the only way for the average person to ever
> achieve any sort of parity. I see the appeal. But it's not the panacea
> it's made out to be. And it's disgusting how people that profit off of
> this desperation hype up gambling as a solution.
>
> (The other day I saw an advert for some app designed to aid people
> involved with online sports betting. Paraphrased, the ad said: "This
> app will let you more easily keep up with all the games and bets,
> without worrying about not having enough time for your work and
> family"... with the implication that there's really nothing WRONG when
> your work and family play second fiddle to your gambling, but this app
> will let you have both).
>
> Sorry, am I ranting again? It's a topic that hits a chord with me.
>
>