I really don't know why I even bother with these anymore. I guess it's
just because the games are there. It's hard for me to resist free,
even when it's obvious crap.

Oh well. What do we have this month, Amazon? I'm sure you'll wow me
with both the quality and quantity of your selection, right?*

* APICO
An Indie 'bee-keeping' simulator with Zelda-esque
graphics. Not the worst thing in the world, but hardly
the sort of idea that makes anyone rush out to play it.

* Endling: Extinction Is Forever
An Indie sidescrolling adventure/platformer. But for
once, this game isn't putting a little child in danger;
no, instead it's a cute fuzzy animal (another sadly
over-used Indie trope: see "Stray", or "First Tree" or
"Shelter" or dozens of others). Again, not a bad game
but not all that exciting either.

And that's it. Remember the days when Amazon would drop a dozen games
on us a month, which - while many of them were older titles - they
were at least games you'd have heard of? It seems those days are long
gone.

<sigh>

* Yes, I've still got Prime. No, I don't want it. But that's
apparently not an argument I'm going to win in this household, and so
long as we're still paying for it, I'm taking their games.

On Mon, 15 Jan 2024 18:23:32 -0500, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>I really don't know why I even bother with these anymore. I guess it's
>just because the games are there. It's hard for me to resist free,
>even when it's obvious crap.
>
>Oh well. What do we have this month, Amazon? I'm sure you'll wow me
>with both the quality and quantity of your selection, right?*
>
>
>
>* APICO
> An Indie 'bee-keeping' simulator with Zelda-esque
> graphics. Not the worst thing in the world, but hardly
> the sort of idea that makes anyone rush out to play it.
>
Love the "genres" on this: Simulator.

Wait. What? Does anyone even know what a simulation is any more?

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On 1/15/2024 3:30 PM, Zaghadka wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jan 2024 18:23:32 -0500, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
> Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>
>> I really don't know why I even bother with these anymore. I guess it's
>> just because the games are there. It's hard for me to resist free,
>> even when it's obvious crap.
>>
>> Oh well. What do we have this month, Amazon? I'm sure you'll wow me
>> with both the quality and quantity of your selection, right?*
>>
>>
>>
>> * APICO
>> An Indie 'bee-keeping' simulator with Zelda-esque
>> graphics. Not the worst thing in the world, but hardly
>> the sort of idea that makes anyone rush out to play it.
>>
> Love the "genres" on this: Simulator.
>
> Wait. What? Does anyone even know what a simulation is any more?
>
What we're all living in now.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Mon, 15 Jan 2024 17:30:14 -0600, Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Love the "genres" on this: Simulator.

>Wait. What? Does anyone even know what a simulation is any more?

Genres have become so mis-applied these days that they're practically
useless, but simulation is one of the worst. Everything is a
simulation if you squint hard enough. "Look ma, I'm simulating the
experience of being a cartoon hedgehog that wears sneakers!" "Hey,
this simulation of blocks dropping into a pit that vanish if you
complete a whole layer is incredibly accurate!" Bah!

Role-playing and adventure are almost as bad. If there's any hint of
either character advancement, the slightest idea of player choice, or
an inventory system of any kind, it suddenly gets labeled a
role-playing game. And even sometimes if those features aren't there,
the role-playing label gets jammed on there. "I'm role-playing being
an Italian plumber stuck in a fantasy land of talking mushrooms and
turtles!"

And adventure? Why, everything is an adventure, isn't it? I fixed my
toaster the other day; what an adventure that was!

In fairness, as games become more complicated, they tend to cross
genres quite regularly and sometimes it can be difficult to classify a
game. Is "Deus Ex" an RPG? Is it an action game? Hell, it's rich,
sandbox world could arguably qualify it as a simulator!

But too often a game gets assigned EVERY genre just because marketing
hopes that will attract people who might otherwise overlook the game.
It's become a tool of advertising rather than a useful qualifier.

Bah. Not like it was in the old days. Now, get off my lawn! ;-)

Am 16.01.24 um 16:35 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
> Genres have become so mis-applied these days that they're practically
> useless, but simulation is one of the worst.
Adventure game is as well mishandled, every jump and run game nowadays
is labeled as adventure game!

On 1/17/24 09:36, Werner P. wrote:
> Am 16.01.24 um 16:35 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
>> Genres have become so mis-applied these days that they're practically
>> useless, but simulation is one of the worst.
> Adventure game is as well mishandled, every jump and run game nowadays
> is labeled as adventure game!

Technically any game with a story is an "adventure" from point A to B.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Am 17.01.24 um 16:40 schrieb candycanearter07:
>
> Technically any game with a story is an "adventure" from point A to B.

By that definition the 8 bit strip poker game is also an adventure, the
story is to get the opponend out of her cloths and it is explained by
the remarks you are getting from your opponent!

On 1/17/24 09:51, Werner P. wrote:
> Am 17.01.24 um 16:40 schrieb candycanearter07:
>>
>> Technically any game with a story is an "adventure" from point A to B.
>
> By that definition the 8 bit strip poker game is also an adventure, the
> story is to get the opponend out of her cloths and it is explained by
> the remarks you are getting from your opponent!

That feels like it might actually be considered a Adventure game nowadays..
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:35:29 -0500, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>On Mon, 15 Jan 2024 17:30:14 -0600, Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>>Love the "genres" on this: Simulator.
>
>>Wait. What? Does anyone even know what a simulation is any more?
>
[snip]

>But too often a game gets assigned EVERY genre just because marketing
>hopes that will attract people who might otherwise overlook the game.
>It's become a tool of advertising rather than a useful qualifier.
>
>Bah. Not like it was in the old days. Now, get off my lawn! ;-)
>
The "old days" had more ambition. It seems that the most terrible trend
of modernity is lack of it, and the subsequent lowering of expectations
("the bar," if you will). The banal is now marketed as extraordinary.
McBurger for everyone! (to paraphrase Woodruff and The Schnibble)

<rant>

I used to have this book as a kid:

https://www.amazon.com/Star-Ship-Simulation-games-no/dp/091839810X

_That's_ a simulation. Anything with cartoon graphics, that aren't that
way due to technological limitations, is not.

It has nothing to do with my lawn, which is actually a simulation of a
lawn*, and the kids are always allowed on it. They make me smile. What
they aren't allowed to do is call it a swimming pool, at least not in my
presence or without a serious commitment of free labor.

"The bar" has been lowered by, as you say, marketing. It's a keyword.
It's exposure, and who cares about its actual meaning?

The same goes for calling an LLM "AI."

We used to demand more than this. We should demand more. If we dumb down
progress to this level we will go exactly where we expect to: right here
and now, IOW nowhere.

A vision of the future is a requirement for a healthy society, not a
quaint old idea. The lack of it is an indication of impending societal
collapse. The inability to imagine is simple mental rigidity and comes
with a corresponding inability to adjust to important changes.

Usually, that happens to the old. It is disturbing to see it happening to
people younger than me.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

* It is green. That's about it. Lawn implies to me a preponderance of
grass. Mine has none of that.

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 16:36:20 +0100, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Werner P. wrote:

>Am 16.01.24 um 16:35 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
>> Genres have become so mis-applied these days that they're practically
>> useless, but simulation is one of the worst.
>Adventure game is as well mishandled, every jump and run game nowadays
>is labeled as adventure game!

You should see how many edits I have to make to Steam's "dynamic
categories." I had to build "adventure/puzzle" from scratch. It literally
could not do it.

And I call The Talos Principle adventure. You explore a locale where
there are puzzles, solve the puzzles, and when you do that you are given
access to new locales. It's not a Sierra point-and-click, but it follows
the same basic "principle" (see what I did there?)

Guess what genre isn't associated with it? Adventure. At least it has
"action-adventure" on its list, which it definitely isn't. It also has
"walking simulator" associated, which apparently has been foist upon it
by people with untreated ADHD.

Oh well. Can we have a "what makes an RPG" discussion? It's more
entertaining. I'll start...

"Bioshock, despite adding RPG elements, is not an RPG. It's an FPS."

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 12:46:43 -0600, Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Oh well. Can we have a "what makes an RPG" discussion? It's more
>entertaining. I'll start...
>
>"Bioshock, despite adding RPG elements, is not an RPG. It's an FPS."

I never played Bioshock but I did play both System Shocks. I always
called them 'FPS games with RPG elements.'' So based on that, I am
going to guess that I would agree with you about Bioshock.

Well, there goes our flame war....

On 1/17/2024 10:57 AM, Mike S. wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 12:46:43 -0600, Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Oh well. Can we have a "what makes an RPG" discussion? It's more
>> entertaining. I'll start...
>>
>> "Bioshock, despite adding RPG elements, is not an RPG. It's an FPS."
>
> I never played Bioshock but I did play both System Shocks. I always
> called them 'FPS games with RPG elements.'' So based on that, I am
> going to guess that I would agree with you about Bioshock.
>
> Well, there goes our flame war....

And I just bought marshmallows!

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 1/15/2024 3:23 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> And that's it. Remember the days when Amazon would drop a dozen games
> on us a month, which - while many of them were older titles - they
> were at least games you'd have heard of? It seems those days are long
> gone.
>

I think they mostly moved the good ones to a free month on Luna with
prime as they're pushing that. The one this month is

Control: Ultimate Edition

There's some other games but they're about as interesting as the cruft
they have in the free prime games.

I might give that a go after my PS+ sub expires on the 27th I think it
was. I'm somewhat tempted to keep it up, as it would be considerably
cheaper on the couple games I like I did try on PS+ than buying them
outright, though who knows how long it'd take me to finish them - even
though they're supposedly short, I seem to take far far longer on most
games than your average gamer.

--
-Justisaur

ø-ø
(\_/)\
`-'\ `--.___,
¶¬'\( ,_.-'
\\
^'

On 17/01/2024 18:46, Zaghadka wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 16:36:20 +0100, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
> Werner P. wrote:
>
>> Am 16.01.24 um 16:35 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
>>> Genres have become so mis-applied these days that they're practically
>>> useless, but simulation is one of the worst.
>> Adventure game is as well mishandled, every jump and run game nowadays
>> is labeled as adventure game!
>
> You should see how many edits I have to make to Steam's "dynamic
> categories." I had to build "adventure/puzzle" from scratch. It literally
> could not do it.
>
> And I call The Talos Principle adventure. You explore a locale where
> there are puzzles, solve the puzzles, and when you do that you are given
> access to new locales. It's not a Sierra point-and-click, but it follows
> the same basic "principle" (see what I did there?)
>
> Guess what genre isn't associated with it? Adventure. At least it has
> "action-adventure" on its list, which it definitely isn't. It also has
> "walking simulator" associated, which apparently has been foist upon it
> by people with untreated ADHD.
>
> Oh well. Can we have a "what makes an RPG" discussion? It's more
> entertaining. I'll start...
>
> "Bioshock, despite adding RPG elements, is not an RPG. It's an FPS."
>

I think that's the problem I have, if you start making categories so
broad then they become useless and Steam will start giving me silly
results. My example is Shadow Gambit were the vast majority of user tags
are either just wrong (IMHO), are stretching definitions almost to
breaking point or are technically correct but basically irrelevant.

Well as you mentioned RPG's I'll give it a go, no flames wars plaease :-)

Possibly my annoyance is being a TT RPG player you kinda know what
you're getting if something is described as a RPG. Pop on Steam and XCom
is listed under the RPG category. I happen to like XCom but I'd rather
it didn't clutter up the RPG category.

On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 11:32:00 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:

>Well as you mentioned RPG's I'll give it a go, no flames wars plaease :-)
>
>Possibly my annoyance is being a TT RPG player you kinda know what
>you're getting if something is described as a RPG. Pop on Steam and XCom
>is listed under the RPG category. I happen to like XCom but I'd rather
>it didn't clutter up the RPG category.

X-COM is a game I put in the strategy game category. I can define it
further by calling it a squad level tactical war game. I put it in the
same category as Jagged Alliance. JA has also been called an RPG,
though never by me.

On 1/18/24 05:32, JAB wrote:
> On 17/01/2024 18:46, Zaghadka wrote:
>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 16:36:20 +0100, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
>> Werner P. wrote:
>>
>>> Am 16.01.24 um 16:35 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
>>>> Genres have become so mis-applied these days that they're practically
>>>> useless, but simulation is one of the worst.
>>> Adventure game is as well mishandled, every jump and run game nowadays
>>> is labeled as adventure game!
>>
>> You should see how many edits I have to make to Steam's "dynamic
>> categories." I had to build "adventure/puzzle" from scratch. It literally
>> could not do it.
>>
>> And I call The Talos Principle adventure. You explore a locale where
>> there are puzzles, solve the puzzles, and when you do that you are given
>> access to new locales. It's not a Sierra point-and-click, but it follows
>> the same basic "principle" (see what I did there?)
>>
>> Guess what genre isn't associated with it? Adventure. At least it has
>> "action-adventure" on its list, which it definitely isn't. It also has
>> "walking simulator" associated, which apparently has been foist upon it
>> by people with untreated ADHD.
>>
>> Oh well. Can we have a "what makes an RPG" discussion? It's more
>> entertaining. I'll start...
>>
>> "Bioshock, despite adding RPG elements, is not an RPG. It's an FPS."
>>
>
> I think that's the problem I have, if you start making categories so
> broad then they become useless and Steam will start giving me silly
> results. My example is Shadow Gambit were the vast majority of user tags
> are either just wrong (IMHO), are stretching definitions almost to
> breaking point or are technically correct but basically irrelevant.
>
> Well as you mentioned RPG's I'll give it a go, no flames wars plaease :-)
>
> Possibly my annoyance is being a TT RPG player you kinda know what
> you're getting if something is described as a RPG. Pop on Steam and XCom
> is listed under the RPG category. I happen to like XCom but I'd rather
> it didn't clutter up the RPG category.

I do find it silly you can't define your own tags on steam.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> wrote:
>I do find it silly you can't define your own tags on steam.

Well, you can. If you mean for categorizing the games in your library,
you can add them to "collections" with whatever names you want. If you
think XCOM should be show up in your library listed in the "Turn-Based
Tactical" or "Play The Original Instead" categories, you have that choice.

For actual tags of games listed in the store then you can select whatever
tags you think the game should have including new ones you've made up.
If enough other people agree that the game should have those tags, it'll
be indexed with those tags. Which is the whole problem here, people are
bad a tagging games and seem to think its a popularity contest where their
favourite games should show up in the store with as many tags as possible.

Note that you can also vote against tags, so I suggest using that feature
if you see a game with tags you think it shouldn't have. Be sure to
vote for the tags you think it should have at the same time.

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca:11068/
db //

On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 09:49:02 -0500, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, Mike
S. wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 11:32:00 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>
>>Well as you mentioned RPG's I'll give it a go, no flames wars plaease :-)
>>
>>Possibly my annoyance is being a TT RPG player you kinda know what
>>you're getting if something is described as a RPG. Pop on Steam and XCom
>>is listed under the RPG category. I happen to like XCom but I'd rather
>>it didn't clutter up the RPG category.
>
>X-COM is a game I put in the strategy game category. I can define it
>further by calling it a squad level tactical war game. I put it in the
>same category as Jagged Alliance. JA has also been called an RPG,
>though never by me.

Absolutely. Tactical, isometric, cover-based, turn-based firefight game.
Some base building. No story, other than bad things are here that need
killin.

This sort of game actually plays very much like a puzzle game, but I give
them their own category because it's less abstract and scratches a
different puzzle itch. Definitely strategy, though there is a difference
between strategy and tactics.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On 18/01/2024 14:49, Mike S. wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 11:32:00 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>
>> Well as you mentioned RPG's I'll give it a go, no flames wars plaease :-)
>>
>> Possibly my annoyance is being a TT RPG player you kinda know what
>> you're getting if something is described as a RPG. Pop on Steam and XCom
>> is listed under the RPG category. I happen to like XCom but I'd rather
>> it didn't clutter up the RPG category.
>
> X-COM is a game I put in the strategy game category. I can define it
> further by calling it a squad level tactical war game. I put it in the
> same category as Jagged Alliance. JA has also been called an RPG,
> though never by me.

That's roughly were I'd put it with a slice of resource management
although I don't think that's part of the core gameplay. I've never
played any of the JA games but yeh, not an RPG or an RTS which JA:3 has
a tag for.

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 13:57:12 -0500, Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 12:46:43 -0600, Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Oh well. Can we have a "what makes an RPG" discussion? It's more
>>entertaining. I'll start...
>>
>>"Bioshock, despite adding RPG elements, is not an RPG. It's an FPS."
>
>I never played Bioshock but I did play both System Shocks. I always
>called them 'FPS games with RPG elements.'' So based on that, I am
>going to guess that I would agree with you about Bioshock.
>
>Well, there goes our flame war....

Bioshock has role-playing elements? Where? It has no stats. It has no
experience levels. You don't get to pick your dialogue choices. You
don't get to pick your character. The hero's effectiveness in battle
is completely based on the player's skill (if you're good at FPS
games, you can drop the enemies quite easily. If not, every battle
leaves the hero a battered mess. But the character's skill is never
taken into account in determining the outcome). Is Bioshock considered
an RPG because you get to select your magic powers? Doesn't that mean
"Call of Duty" has RPG elements too, because in one game I choose to
use an MP5 and in the next session my loadout is a AR-15? Of course
not. Bioshock is a shooter, an action game. At most, it's reliance on
story might push it into the 'action-adventure' category. But an RPG?
I think not.

;-)

"System Shock 2" or "Deus Ex" hew much more closely to traditional RPG
elements; you have different stats, classes (SS2), dialog choices
(DE), a proper inventory system. Stats have an actual effect on
gameplay too (e.g., try shooting something with a low "Weapon:Rifle"
score in Deus Ex and watch the scope wander all over the screen; up
your stats and its greatly stabilized).

(Of course, for the truly grumpy grognards, even the /best/ computer
RPGs aren't really RPGs... since you're never really role-playing but
instead always reciting pre-assigned lines on a pre-determined story
path. But let's not go there. ;-)

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 15:35:21 -0800, Justisaur <justisaur@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On 1/15/2024 3:23 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>> And that's it. Remember the days when Amazon would drop a dozen games
>> on us a month, which - while many of them were older titles - they
>> were at least games you'd have heard of? It seems those days are long
>> gone.
>>
>
>I think they mostly moved the good ones to a free month on Luna with
>prime as they're pushing that. The one this month is
>Control: Ultimate Edition

That's not a free game. That's an extended demo period. Therefore, not
eligible to be included in my 'free games' posts.

Maybe I'll announce them if I ever do "games now temporarily available
so long as the provider is in a good mood" posts.

;-)

On 1/19/2024 7:14 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 15:35:21 -0800, Justisaur <justisaur@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 1/15/2024 3:23 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>> And that's it. Remember the days when Amazon would drop a dozen games
>>> on us a month, which - while many of them were older titles - they
>>> were at least games you'd have heard of? It seems those days are long
>>> gone.
>>>
>>
>> I think they mostly moved the good ones to a free month on Luna with
>> prime as they're pushing that. The one this month is
>> Control: Ultimate Edition
>
>
> That's not a free game. That's an extended demo period. Therefore, not
> eligible to be included in my 'free games' posts.
>
> Maybe I'll announce them if I ever do "games now temporarily available
> so long as the provider is in a good mood" posts.
>
> ;-)
>
That's a bit long for a subject line. "GNTASLATPIIAGM"? Bleh.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 08:28:50 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>On 1/19/2024 7:14 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>> Maybe I'll announce them if I ever do "games now temporarily available
>> so long as the provider is in a good mood" posts.

>That's a bit long for a subject line. "GNTASLATPIIAGM"? Bleh.

C'mon, let's be fair. Is it any longer (or more gibberishy) than most
of what I write? ;-)

On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:08:34 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>Bioshock has role-playing elements? Where? It has no stats. It has no
>experience levels. You don't get to pick your dialogue choices. You
>don't get to pick your character. The hero's effectiveness in battle
>is completely based on the player's skill (if you're good at FPS
>games, you can drop the enemies quite easily. If not, every battle
>leaves the hero a battered mess. But the character's skill is never
>taken into account in determining the outcome). Is Bioshock considered
>an RPG because you get to select your magic powers? Doesn't that mean
>"Call of Duty" has RPG elements too, because in one game I choose to
>use an MP5 and in the next session my loadout is a AR-15? Of course
>not. Bioshock is a shooter, an action game. At most, it's reliance on
>story might push it into the 'action-adventure' category. But an RPG?
>I think not.

As I said, I never played Bioshock so I was unaware of this. If your
description is accurate, then I have to ask the same basic question.
Where is the RPG in this game? Sounds like a FPS to me.

On 1/19/2024 10:29 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 08:28:50 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 1/19/2024 7:14 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>
>>> Maybe I'll announce them if I ever do "games now temporarily available
>>> so long as the provider is in a good mood" posts.
>
>> That's a bit long for a subject line. "GNTASLATPIIAGM"? Bleh.
>
> C'mon, let's be fair. Is it any longer (or more gibberishy) than most
> of what I write? ;-)
>
That actual bodies of the posts? No. But you are the one who thought
up "CRAP Posts" so I expect more from your subject lines.

:P

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.