Given that I can't get networking for my TOPS20 instance on simh or
klh10, could I get someone who does have it working or can otherwise
easily get files in and out of a TOPS20 machine, please test Frotz for
me? I'd like to be sure that it will compile and run Z-code games
without issue and I'm a bit anxious to put out a new release.

--
David Griffith
dave@661.org

David Griffith wrote:
> Given that I can't get networking for my TOPS20 instance on simh or
> klh10, could I get someone who does have it working or can otherwise
> easily get files in and out of a TOPS20 machine, please test Frotz for
> me?

Would it be possible to work with twenex.org? They have two TOPS-20
systems running on hardware (abeit not from DEC).

Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> wrote:
> David Griffith wrote:
>> Given that I can't get networking for my TOPS20 instance on simh or
>> klh10, could I get someone who does have it working or can otherwise
>> easily get files in and out of a TOPS20 machine, please test Frotz for
>> me?

> Would it be possible to work with twenex.org? They have two TOPS-20
> systems running on hardware (abeit not from DEC).

I have an account on the XKL Toad-2 -- the one you get to by doing an
ssh to twenex@sdf.org. Last time I tried, it looked just like no
network was available. If I can get something from there that allows me
to access the internet, that would work. I just need to ftp to my own
server to get the source code.

I did this testing before with an emulation running on a Pi somewhere,
but it was taken down and I forgot who ran it.

--
David Griffith
dave@661.org

David Griffith wrote:
> I did this testing before with an emulation running on a Pi somewhere,
> but it was taken down and I forgot who ran it.

Here's another one:
http://tina.update.uu.se/

Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> wrote:
> David Griffith wrote:
>> I did this testing before with an emulation running on a Pi somewhere,
>> but it was taken down and I forgot who ran it.

> Here's another one:
> http://tina.update.uu.se/

I've acquired an account there and it has network access. DNS isn't
working, probably because of firewall issues. But that's not strictly
necessary. I'm trying to do an FTP login to a virtualized host of mine
at Linode. I believe TINA is at Bjorn Victor's home (waves).

What am I doing wrong with this FTP session?
@ftp [1.1.1.1]
< (vsFTPd 3.0.3)
Setting default transfer type to text.
FTP>LOGIN FTP
Password:
< Login successful.
FTP>DIR
% Host does not support PORT, can't use ALTERNATE-SOCKETS
< Use PORT or PASV first.
FTP>

No matter where in this exchange I type "PASV" do I get a positive
response. Instead I get this:
?No such host - No string for that Host number - "PASV"

--
David Griffith
dave@661.org

> No matter where in this exchange I type "PASV" do I get a positive
> response. Instead I get this:
> ?No such host - No string for that Host number - "PASV"

I believe what's going on here is that you use the TOPS-20 FTP client to
talk to a Unix FTP server, correct? It looks to me the server urges the
use of PORT or PASV. Apparently the TOPS-20 client doesn't understand
PASV as a command, and interprets it as a host name instead.

Some clients has a mechanism to send a command to the server side. The
Unix ftp command for this is usually "quote". Does the TOPS-20 client
has something like this? Maybe you could type something like "QUOTE PASV".

Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> wrote:
>> No matter where in this exchange I type "PASV" do I get a positive
>> response. Instead I get this:
>> ?No such host - No string for that Host number - "PASV"

> I believe what's going on here is that you use the TOPS-20 FTP client to
> talk to a Unix FTP server, correct? It looks to me the server urges the
> use of PORT or PASV. Apparently the TOPS-20 client doesn't understand
> PASV as a command, and interprets it as a host name instead.

> Some clients has a mechanism to send a command to the server side. The
> Unix ftp command for this is usually "quote". Does the TOPS-20 client
> has something like this? Maybe you could type something like "QUOTE PASV".

Correct, it is a Unix FTP server (ftp.661.org). I found that doing
``quote "pasv"'' caused the server to go into passive mode, but I don't
see where to go from here.

@ftp [192.81.131.210]
< (vsFTPd 3.0.3)
Setting default transfer type to text.
FTP>login ftp
Password:
< Login successful.
FTP>quote "pasv"
< Entering Passive Mode (192,81,131,210,149,61).
FTP>dir
% Host does not support PORT, can't use ALTERNATE-SOCKETS
< Use PORT or PASV first.
FTP>

--
David Griffith
dave@661.org

David Griffith writes:
> Correct, it is a Unix FTP server (ftp.661.org). I found that doing
> ``quote "pasv"'' caused the server to go into passive mode, but I don't
> see where to go from here.
>
> @ftp [192.81.131.210]
> < (vsFTPd 3.0.3)
> Setting default transfer type to text.
> FTP>login ftp
> Password:
> < Login successful.
> FTP>quote "pasv"
> < Entering Passive Mode (192,81,131,210,149,61).
> FTP>dir
> % Host does not support PORT, can't use ALTERNATE-SOCKETS
> < Use PORT or PASV first.
> FTP>

I can only supply some guesses at this point. The server says to use
PORT, can you do something like quote "port" to make it happy? Maybe
"port 1234" or something? But then it also says "Host does not support
PORT", so maybe that's a dead end.

Failing that, I would suggest trying another Unix FTP server that does
support the features the TOPS-20 FTP client expects.

Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> writes:
>David Griffith writes:
>> Correct, it is a Unix FTP server (ftp.661.org). I found that doing
>> ``quote "pasv"'' caused the server to go into passive mode, but I don't
>> see where to go from here.
>>
>> @ftp [192.81.131.210]
>> < (vsFTPd 3.0.3)
>> Setting default transfer type to text.
>> FTP>login ftp
>> Password:
>> < Login successful.
>> FTP>quote "pasv"
>> < Entering Passive Mode (192,81,131,210,149,61).
>> FTP>dir
>> % Host does not support PORT, can't use ALTERNATE-SOCKETS
>> < Use PORT or PASV first.
>> FTP>
>
>I can only supply some guesses at this point. The server says to use
>PORT, can you do something like quote "port" to make it happy? Maybe
>"port 1234" or something? But then it also says "Host does not support
>PORT", so maybe that's a dead end.
>
>Failing that, I would suggest trying another Unix FTP server that does
>support the features the TOPS-20 FTP client expects.

The default mode for FTP is for the client to contact the
server, and the server _opens a new port_ back to the client.

This often fails in modern systems due to firewalls and/or NAT.

Thus, the passive mode was added to the FTP protocol (quite some
time ago) to avoid this reverse connection.

It is likely that the TOPS version of FTP doesn't support the
passive mode at all.

Scott Lurndal write:
> The default mode for FTP is for the client to contact the
> server, and the server _opens a new port_ back to the client.
> This often fails in modern systems due to firewalls and/or NAT.

NAT can support this mode of FTP, if properly configured. David, you
might want to ask the TINA admin about that.

Or else, try Kermit?

Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> writes:
>>David Griffith writes:
>>> Correct, it is a Unix FTP server (ftp.661.org). I found that doing
>>> ``quote "pasv"'' caused the server to go into passive mode, but I don't
>>> see where to go from here.
>>>
>>> @ftp [192.81.131.210]
>>> < (vsFTPd 3.0.3)
>>> Setting default transfer type to text.
>>> FTP>login ftp
>>> Password:
>>> < Login successful.
>>> FTP>quote "pasv"
>>> < Entering Passive Mode (192,81,131,210,149,61).
>>> FTP>dir
>>> % Host does not support PORT, can't use ALTERNATE-SOCKETS
>>> < Use PORT or PASV first.
>>> FTP>
>>
>>I can only supply some guesses at this point. The server says to use
>>PORT, can you do something like quote "port" to make it happy? Maybe
>>"port 1234" or something? But then it also says "Host does not support
>>PORT", so maybe that's a dead end.
>>
>>Failing that, I would suggest trying another Unix FTP server that does
>>support the features the TOPS-20 FTP client expects.

> The default mode for FTP is for the client to contact the
> server, and the server _opens a new port_ back to the client.

> This often fails in modern systems due to firewalls and/or NAT.

> Thus, the passive mode was added to the FTP protocol (quite some
> time ago) to avoid this reverse connection.

> It is likely that the TOPS version of FTP doesn't support the
> passive mode at all.

According to
https://github.com/PDP-10/tops20-build/blob/master/src/sources/rmsrre.b36#L73
passive mode seems like it was a compile-time option. In any case, I
was able to make it work around a year before on someone else's Pi.

--
David Griffith
dave@661.org

David Griffith writes:
> In any case, I was able to make it work around a year before on
> someone else's Pi.

I it turns out you can't make FTP (or Kermit) work this time, maybe make
a DUMPER tape image and have the admin mount it.

https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/pdp10-its-disassembler/blob/master/dumper.c