On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 23:23:35 -0400, "25B.Z959" <25B.Z959@nada.net>
wrote:
>On 7/29/22 6:23 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 28/07/2022 20:13, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On 28/07/2022 12:01, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>>>> "25B.Z959" <25B.Z959@nada.net> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But then it has to deal with packed decimals ... :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 'Efficient' is kind of relative - is it fewer ASM bytes
>>>>>>> or fewer ultimate CPU cycles ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Depends. Sometimes it was lack of EPROM space
>>>>> Sometimes it was lack of CPU Hz.
>>>>> What isn't efficient is low source code byte count achieved by removing
>>>>> the comments
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Unless your source is on paper tape.
>>>>
>>> It is still going to end up as machine code long before you run it
>>>
>>>
>>
>> If you punch your code on cards, you get one instruction per card. The
>> other sixty or so characters will be there whether they’re blanks or a
>> comment, so you might as well comment. If you use paper tape, comments will
>> balloon the size of your source to several times it’s size, and you have to
>> read in all that tape to compile. I think early tapes used card-images,
>> blocked or unblocked, so, again, comments were “free.”
>
> Largely true ... the "Real App Tapes" didn't include the
> comments - that was "elsewhere", printed onto the wide-
> format fan-fold paper with green stripes in the local equiv
> of Courier-12 by an 8-pin teletype/printer, where'd it'd
> soon get lost or totally out-of-sync because people kept
> making "tweaks" without documenting them in the slightest
> beyond MAYbe a scribble on their deskpads ..........
>
> This was when "large convenient removable storage" was
> 8" SS/SD floppies. I still come across white ring
> notebooks with those printouts, and several of those
> old floppies. Is it even POSSIBLE to read those disk
> formats these days ???
>
> The same is coming to apply to 5-1/4 disks SS/SD thru
> DS/QuadD/HD, and it won't be long before even 3-1/2
> and CD/DVD disks won't have any readers. You didn't
> use "ZIP disks", did you ?). Yer "safest" bet may be
> "the cloud" - but eventually they'll all get hacked
> or go out of business so REPLICATION is the holy grail.

The last time I looked online, about 2019, I was able to locate for
sale an external USB 3.5" floppy drive.

I still have, somewhere, in a storage box, a 5.25" floppy drive,
internal. And i think I still have a desktop computer i can put it in.
No idea if the PSU, or the hard drive, stil lwork though.

I've never seen an 8" floppy drive anywhere.
--
Jim

On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 16:45:08 -0400, Rich Alderson wrote:

> "25B.Z959" <25B.Z959@nada.net> writes:
>
>> And the "single instruction" sets a whole BUNCH of
>> sub-instructions in motion, fetching/organizing/
>> moving stuff in memory.
[snip]
> IT IS ALL HARDWARE LOGIC. Your insistence on calling hardware "programming" is
> simply silly.

I agree that hardware design is not normally considered "programming".

But, there is a class of "programming" that has nothing to do with
programming languages, or Boolean logic, or software, but concentrates
entirely on "hardware'.

Consider the simple Jacquard loom, where fabric weaving patterns are
"programmed" on cards "read" by the loom. These cards do not, in any way,
constitute "programming" as is referred to by our contemporaries, but still
are referred to as a "program" for the loom.

Or, how about the process of modifying a blank FPGA into a device that
performs useful work. This process, using such languages as VHDL and
Verilog, is referred to as "programming", and the generated logic
templates are referred to as "programs", but, again, these terms refer
to things that form /hardware/, and not software.

--
Lew Pitcher
"In Skills, We Trust"

On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 09:45:53 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>
> I've never seen an 8" floppy drive anywhere.

They are rarer than hen's teeth, these days.

My first encounter with an 8" floppy disk drive was in loading
the microcode into a S/370-30 mainframe. Later, when I acquired
my first home computer (a Cromemco Z2) I loaded CP/M from 8"
disks on my dual-drive Persci voice-coil floppy disk drive.

--
Lew Pitcher
"In Skills, We Trust"

On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 14:50:20 +0000, Lew Pitcher wrote:

> On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 09:45:53 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>>
>> I've never seen an 8" floppy drive anywhere.
>
> They are rarer than hen's teeth, these days.
>
> My first encounter with an 8" floppy disk drive was in loading
> the microcode into a S/370-30 mainframe. Later, when I acquired

Correction: I meant to say a S/360-30 mainframe. I later worked on
S/370 systems, but the /first/ time I saw an 8" floppy was the
S/360 microcode.

> my first home computer (a Cromemco Z2) I loaded CP/M from 8"
> disks on my dual-drive Persci voice-coil floppy disk drive.

--
Lew Pitcher
"In Skills, We Trust"

On 2022-08-01, D.J <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 23:23:35 -0400, "25B.Z959" <25B.Z959@nada.net>
> wrote:
>>On 7/29/22 6:23 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 28/07/2022 20:13, Peter Flass wrote:
>
> I still have, somewhere, in a storage box, a 5.25" floppy drive,
> internal. And i think I still have a desktop computer i can put it in.
> No idea if the PSU, or the hard drive, stil lwork though.
>
> I've never seen an 8" floppy drive anywhere.
> --
> Jim
the disk drive for Amstrad computers was an odd size, I forget what.

--
greymausg@mail.org
Fi Fi Fo Fum, I smell the stench of an influencer
ten, twenty million tops

Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> writes:
>On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 09:45:53 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>>
>> I've never seen an 8" floppy drive anywhere.
>
>They are rarer than hen's teeth, these days.
>
>My first encounter with an 8" floppy disk drive was in loading
>the microcode into a S/370-30 mainframe. Later, when I acquired
>my first home computer (a Cromemco Z2) I loaded CP/M from 8"
>disks on my dual-drive Persci voice-coil floppy disk drive.
>

It may be that Al has one at the CHM. I've seen references on the
PDP-11 groups to folks using 8" floppies on working PDP-11's.

Some of the Bx9xx series Burroughs mainframes had 8" floppies (e.g. B2900)
and others used 5 1/4" (B4900) to load microcode and the initial boot loader.

On 1 Aug 2022 15:08:33 GMT
maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:

> On 2022-08-01, D.J <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 23:23:35 -0400, "25B.Z959" <25B.Z959@nada.net>
> > wrote:
> >>On 7/29/22 6:23 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
> >>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >>>> On 28/07/2022 20:13, Peter Flass wrote:
> >
> > I still have, somewhere, in a storage box, a 5.25" floppy drive,
> > internal. And i think I still have a desktop computer i can put it in.
> > No idea if the PSU, or the hard drive, stil lwork though.
> >
> > I've never seen an 8" floppy drive anywhere.
> > --
> > Jim
> the disk drive for Amstrad computers was an odd size, I forget what.
>
3 inch. Amstrad Z80-based home computers CPC 464, 6128

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amstrad_CPC

I had^w my attic still has one!

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 01/08/2022 12:02, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 11:02:12 +0100
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> The point at which hardware becomes firmware, is very moot.
>
> Not really. Hardware you have to build. The firmware gets written.
>
>> When programming a ULA, is that software, or hardware?
>
> The gates etc. are hardware. The connection map is firmware if in
> ROM, software if in RAM (I'm not aware of any examples this is just for
> completeness).
>
> A good demonstration of this would be the researcher at (IIRC
> Exeter) who used genetic algorithms starting with random data to evolve
> circuitry on ULAs. One result was a frequency discriminator in under 100
> gates, some of which were not connected to any signal path but were
> required for the thing to work. I don't think that one was ever fully
> understood - there certainly wasn't any kind of clock.
>
> There's no useful distinguishing word between write once firmware
> and rewritable firmware which is a shame.
>
>> The problem with abstract concepts like hardware and software is that
>> they seldom map exactly to the real world
>
> But in this case they do, very well.
>
> Hard: Built, implemented in matter.
> Firm: Written may be write once or changeable with some difficulty.
> Soft: Written, easily changeable.
>
> There is a continuum between firm and soft but not between hard and
> firm. Software and Firmware are patterns, hardware is things.
>

So microcode inst "hardware" then, although its bought as part of the
processor

And hooking up a UART isn't hardware, since it has to be "programmed".

--
“Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

– Ludwig von Mises

On 2022-08-01, Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> On 1 Aug 2022 15:08:33 GMT
> maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-08-01, D.J <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 23:23:35 -0400, "25B.Z959" <25B.Z959@nada.net>
>> > wrote:
>> >>On 7/29/22 6:23 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
>> >>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> >>>> On 28/07/2022 20:13, Peter Flass wrote:
>> >
>> > I still have, somewhere, in a storage box, a 5.25" floppy drive,
>> > internal. And i think I still have a desktop computer i can put it in.
>> > No idea if the PSU, or the hard drive, stil lwork though.
>> >
>> > I've never seen an 8" floppy drive anywhere.
>> > --
>> > Jim
>> the disk drive for Amstrad computers was an odd size, I forget what.
>>
> 3 inch. Amstrad Z80-based home computers CPC 464, 6128
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amstrad_CPC
>
> I had^w my attic still has one!
>
In my humble opinion and that that of my repair man, one of the best
computers ever made.

--
greymausg@mail.org
Fi Fi Fo Fum, I smell the stench of an influencer
ten, twenty million tops

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>On 01/08/2022 12:02, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 11:02:12 +0100
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> The point at which hardware becomes firmware, is very moot.
>>
>> Not really. Hardware you have to build. The firmware gets written.
>>
>>> When programming a ULA, is that software, or hardware?
>>
>> The gates etc. are hardware. The connection map is firmware if in
>> ROM, software if in RAM (I'm not aware of any examples this is just for
>> completeness).
>>
>> A good demonstration of this would be the researcher at (IIRC
>> Exeter) who used genetic algorithms starting with random data to evolve
>> circuitry on ULAs. One result was a frequency discriminator in under 100
>> gates, some of which were not connected to any signal path but were
>> required for the thing to work. I don't think that one was ever fully
>> understood - there certainly wasn't any kind of clock.
>>
>> There's no useful distinguishing word between write once firmware
>> and rewritable firmware which is a shame.
>>
>>> The problem with abstract concepts like hardware and software is that
>>> they seldom map exactly to the real world
>>
>> But in this case they do, very well.
>>
>> Hard: Built, implemented in matter.
>> Firm: Written may be write once or changeable with some difficulty.
>> Soft: Written, easily changeable.
>>
>> There is a continuum between firm and soft but not between hard and
>> firm. Software and Firmware are patterns, hardware is things.
>>
>
>So microcode inst "hardware" then, although its bought as part of the
>processor

A lot of microcode, in the day, was simply a table of VLIW (80 to hundreds
of bits wide) entries, where each bit in the VLIW drove signals
throughout the rest of the processor, including selector bits for the next
VLIW instruction to execute. Often loaded via scan chains from floppy
by the maintenance processor when the host was powered on.

Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> writes:

> On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 09:45:53 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>>
>> I've never seen an 8" floppy drive anywhere.
>
> They are rarer than hen's teeth, these days.
>
> My first encounter with an 8" floppy disk drive was in loading
> the microcode into a S/370-30 mainframe. Later, when I acquired
> my first home computer (a Cromemco Z2) I loaded CP/M from 8"
> disks on my dual-drive Persci voice-coil floppy disk drive.

That "370-30" would have been a 370/135 or some other 3 digit model
number.

Probably where I saw my first 8" floppy drive.

--
Dan Espen

Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> writes:

> On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 14:50:20 +0000, Lew Pitcher wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 09:45:53 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>>>
>>> I've never seen an 8" floppy drive anywhere.
>>
>> They are rarer than hen's teeth, these days.
>>
>> My first encounter with an 8" floppy disk drive was in loading
>> the microcode into a S/370-30 mainframe. Later, when I acquired
>
> Correction: I meant to say a S/360-30 mainframe. I later worked on
> S/370 systems, but the /first/ time I saw an 8" floppy was the
> S/360 microcode.

I don't believe a 360/30 had a floppy drive.

--
Dan Espen

On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 17:35:28 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> So microcode inst "hardware" then, although its bought as part of the
> processor

Agreed, it is usually write once firmware there have been systems
with writable microcode.

> And hooking up a UART isn't hardware, since it has to be "programmed".

Not sure what you mean there, a UART is usually hardware with
control registers (the registers and the things they control are hardware
but the settings are not) OTOH if you were to implement a UART using the
GPIO pins of a Raspberry Pi or Ardiuno and code then that would be a
software implementation of a UART using the general purpose hardware. I
have done this, although it was on something much older than a Pi or
Arduino.

Oh yes - best distinction between software and firmware I can think
of. Firmware is guaranteed not to go away when the power is off.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 14:18:42 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:

> Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> writes:
>
>> On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 14:50:20 +0000, Lew Pitcher wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 09:45:53 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've never seen an 8" floppy drive anywhere.
>>>
>>> They are rarer than hen's teeth, these days.
>>>
>>> My first encounter with an 8" floppy disk drive was in loading
>>> the microcode into a S/370-30 mainframe. Later, when I acquired
>>
>> Correction: I meant to say a S/360-30 mainframe. I later worked on
>> S/370 systems, but the /first/ time I saw an 8" floppy was the
>> S/360 microcode.
>
> I don't believe a 360/30 had a floppy drive.

TBH, I didn't tell the whole story. It was a 3890 High Speed Cheque
Processor, and (according to the IBM CE, and the service manuals)
had an embedded 360/30 that made all the stacker decisions. The
8" floppy in the back was used for loading the microcode and
offline programs written in SCI (Stacker Control Instructions).

For a time, I wrote SCI code. Later, I maintained several different
mainframe cheque sorter applications ("Transit", CPCS, and DosCheck)
that ran these machines.

--
Lew Pitcher
"In Skills, We Trust"

On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 14:15:18 -0400
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:

> Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> writes:
>
> > On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 09:45:53 -0500, D.J. wrote:
> >>
> >> I've never seen an 8" floppy drive anywhere.
> >
> > They are rarer than hen's teeth, these days.
> >
> > My first encounter with an 8" floppy disk drive was in loading
> > the microcode into a S/370-30 mainframe. Later, when I acquired
> > my first home computer (a Cromemco Z2) I loaded CP/M from 8"
> > disks on my dual-drive Persci voice-coil floppy disk drive.
>
> That "370-30" would have been a 370/135 or some other 3 digit model
> number.
>
> Probably where I saw my first 8" floppy drive.
>
>
The cluster controllers I saw in the late 80's? were (occasionally) booted
from 8" floppys. We had some kind of upgrade that allowed better
screen editting.

Hah you try searching on cluster controllers these day!
but this is what I mean:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3270#3274_controller

Entry Assist I think was the new feature.

Then Multiple Logical Terminals - this was streets ahead of the old
single line editting days of 1980.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 2022-08-01, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 11:02:12 +0100
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> When programming a ULA, is that software, or hardware?
>
> The gates etc. are hardware. The connection map is firmware if in
> ROM, software if in RAM (I'm not aware of any examples this is just for
> completeness).
>
> A good demonstration of this would be the researcher at (IIRC
> Exeter) who used genetic algorithms starting with random data to evolve
> circuitry on ULAs. One result was a frequency discriminator in under 100
> gates, some of which were not connected to any signal path but were
> required for the thing to work. I don't think that one was ever fully
> understood - there certainly wasn't any kind of clock.

Speaking of things not connected to any signal path:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/magic-story.html

> There's no useful distinguishing word between write once firmware
> and rewritable firmware which is a shame.

You could always specify whether the firmware is stored in a
PROM, EPROM, or EEPROM. Depending on the circuit, you might
even be able to replace one with another.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

On 2022-08-01, Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote:

> On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 09:45:53 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>
>> I've never seen an 8" floppy drive anywhere.
>
> They are rarer than hen's teeth, these days.
>
> My first encounter with an 8" floppy disk drive was in loading
> the microcode into a S/370-30 mainframe. Later, when I acquired
> my first home computer (a Cromemco Z2) I loaded CP/M from 8"
> disks on my dual-drive Persci voice-coil floppy disk drive.

I still have my IMSAI with its two 8-inch floppy drives.
Unfortunately, although it powers up and the CPU appears
OK, it won't boot. I suspect that the boot ROM has suffered
bit rot. I'll need to find the listing of the ROM's contents
and a 2708 programmer...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

25B.Z959 <25B.Z959@nada.net> wrote:
> On 7/29/22 6:23 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 28/07/2022 20:13, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On 28/07/2022 12:01, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>>>> "25B.Z959" <25B.Z959@nada.net> writes:
>
> Ya know what WILL last 100+ years ? Those notebooks
> full of the wide-format 8-pin printed fanfold paper :-)
>

Yes! Same with dead-tree photos. Not so much color photos, but
black-and-white photos have lasted well over 100 years with no discernible
degradation, and no special hardware or software required to view them.

--
Pete

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 00:38:37 -0400
> "25B.Z959" <25B.Z959@nada.net> wrote:
>
>> But it's the *correct* viewpoint, it IS "programming",
>> creating a predictable, useful, train of events through
>> carefully (soldered) logical design
>
> Yes there are similarities between the design of electronic
> hardware, the design of software, the design of mechanical systems and so
> forth but similarities do not make them the same thing. We have words to
> distinguish them because although they are all branches of *engineering*
> and thus embody common principles they are different disciplines no matter
> how similar. It is a mistake to conflate similar things instead of
> recognising both the similarities and the differences.
>
> Now STFU about it and say something interesting please.
>

If engineers built bridges the way programmers write programs, the first
stiff breeze that came along would destroy civilization.

--
Pete

D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 23:23:35 -0400, "25B.Z959" <25B.Z959@nada.net>
> wrote:
>> On 7/29/22 6:23 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 28/07/2022 20:13, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> On 28/07/2022 12:01, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>>>>> "25B.Z959" <25B.Z959@nada.net> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But then it has to deal with packed decimals ... :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 'Efficient' is kind of relative - is it fewer ASM bytes
>>>>>>>> or fewer ultimate CPU cycles ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Depends. Sometimes it was lack of EPROM space
>>>>>> Sometimes it was lack of CPU Hz.
>>>>>> What isn't efficient is low source code byte count achieved by removing
>>>>>> the comments
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless your source is on paper tape.
>>>>>
>>>> It is still going to end up as machine code long before you run it
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> If you punch your code on cards, you get one instruction per card. The
>>> other sixty or so characters will be there whether they’re blanks or a
>>> comment, so you might as well comment. If you use paper tape, comments will
>>> balloon the size of your source to several times it’s size, and you have to
>>> read in all that tape to compile. I think early tapes used card-images,
>>> blocked or unblocked, so, again, comments were “free.”
>>
>> Largely true ... the "Real App Tapes" didn't include the
>> comments - that was "elsewhere", printed onto the wide-
>> format fan-fold paper with green stripes in the local equiv
>> of Courier-12 by an 8-pin teletype/printer, where'd it'd
>> soon get lost or totally out-of-sync because people kept
>> making "tweaks" without documenting them in the slightest
>> beyond MAYbe a scribble on their deskpads ..........
>>
>> This was when "large convenient removable storage" was
>> 8" SS/SD floppies. I still come across white ring
>> notebooks with those printouts, and several of those
>> old floppies. Is it even POSSIBLE to read those disk
>> formats these days ???
>>
>> The same is coming to apply to 5-1/4 disks SS/SD thru
>> DS/QuadD/HD, and it won't be long before even 3-1/2
>> and CD/DVD disks won't have any readers. You didn't
>> use "ZIP disks", did you ?). Yer "safest" bet may be
>> "the cloud" - but eventually they'll all get hacked
>> or go out of business so REPLICATION is the holy grail.
>
> The last time I looked online, about 2019, I was able to locate for
> sale an external USB 3.5" floppy drive.
>
> I still have, somewhere, in a storage box, a 5.25" floppy drive,
> internal. And i think I still have a desktop computer i can put it in.
> No idea if the PSU, or the hard drive, stil lwork though.

I think I still have one, too. New in box. Are they still selling
USB-attached external floppy drives?

>
> I've never seen an 8" floppy drive anywhere.
> --
> Jim
>

--
Pete

Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 09:45:53 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>>
>> I've never seen an 8" floppy drive anywhere.
>
> They are rarer than hen's teeth, these days.
>
> My first encounter with an 8" floppy disk drive was in loading
> the microcode into a S/370-30 mainframe. Later, when I acquired
> my first home computer (a Cromemco Z2) I loaded CP/M from 8"
> disks on my dual-drive Persci voice-coil floppy disk drive.
>

Displaywriters used them.

--
Pete

Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 14:50:20 +0000, Lew Pitcher wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 09:45:53 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>>>
>>> I've never seen an 8" floppy drive anywhere.
>>
>> They are rarer than hen's teeth, these days.
>>
>> My first encounter with an 8" floppy disk drive was in loading
>> the microcode into a S/370-30 mainframe. Later, when I acquired
>
> Correction: I meant to say a S/360-30 mainframe. I later worked on
> S/370 systems, but the /first/ time I saw an 8" floppy was the
> S/360 microcode.
>
>> my first home computer (a Cromemco Z2) I loaded CP/M from 8"
>> disks on my dual-drive Persci voice-coil floppy disk drive.
>

360/30 used CCROS microcode - mylar cards the size and shape of a standard
IBM card. I once watched a CE punch and install a patch.

--
Pete

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 17:35:28 +0100
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> So microcode inst "hardware" then, although its bought as part of the
>> processor
>
> Agreed, it is usually write once firmware there have been systems
> with writable microcode.
>
>> And hooking up a UART isn't hardware, since it has to be "programmed".
>
> Not sure what you mean there, a UART is usually hardware with
> control registers (the registers and the things they control are hardware
> but the settings are not) OTOH if you were to implement a UART using the
> GPIO pins of a Raspberry Pi or Ardiuno and code then that would be a
> software implementation of a UART using the general purpose hardware. I
> have done this, although it was on something much older than a Pi or
> Arduino.
>
> Oh yes - best distinction between software and firmware I can think
> of. Firmware is guaranteed not to go away when the power is off.
>

Programs in core memory didn’t either. We used a diskless MDS-2400 as an
RJE station. We’d load the emulator once and then could turn the machine
off and on whenever we wanted. I would assume 360/20 RJE was the same.

--
Pete

"25B.Z959" <25B.Z959@nada.net> writes:

> As best I remember, APL came with some of the old
> Commodore PET computers - considered a rival for
> BASIC at the time. Yes, you CAN "concisely" render
> a lot of math stuff, but ........

APL is more than a decade older than the PET.

The first personal computer implementation was the IBM 5100, c. 1972.

It was used on the 360 and on the IBM 1800 (running the 1500 operating system)
in the Computer-Assisted Instruction Lab at UTexas in the late 1960s. That's
where I first used it.

It was available on DEC PDP-10 systems as well.

--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

"Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> writes:

> On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 14:15:18 -0400
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> writes:
>>
>> > On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 09:45:53 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I've never seen an 8" floppy drive anywhere.
>> >
>> > They are rarer than hen's teeth, these days.
>> >
>> > My first encounter with an 8" floppy disk drive was in loading
>> > the microcode into a S/370-30 mainframe. Later, when I acquired
>> > my first home computer (a Cromemco Z2) I loaded CP/M from 8"
>> > disks on my dual-drive Persci voice-coil floppy disk drive.
>>
>> That "370-30" would have been a 370/135 or some other 3 digit model
>> number.
>>
>> Probably where I saw my first 8" floppy drive.
>>
>>
> The cluster controllers I saw in the late 80's? were (occasionally) booted
> from 8" floppys. We had some kind of upgrade that allowed better
> screen editting.
>
> Hah you try searching on cluster controllers these day!
> but this is what I mean:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3270#3274_controller
>
> Entry Assist I think was the new feature.
>
> Then Multiple Logical Terminals - this was streets ahead of the old
> single line editting days of 1980.

I believe I did my first online application in '79 using IBM 2260s.

--
Dan Espen