Good day - I've always considered myself a firm believer
in PRE tribulation rapture - now I'm not so sure... It's
what I was taught, so what I believed, but a recent video
opened my eyes to some things I'd not been taught, or had
not considered.

At the very least it's caused me to look deeper... What
are your thoughts?

I'd recommend this video for sure!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwXoMNpOhos





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  Re: pre trib
  By: JIMMY ANDERSON to ALL on Mon Feb 07 2022 10:16 am

 JA> Good day - I've always considered myself a firm believer
 JA> in PRE tribulation rapture - now I'm not so sure... It's
 JA> what I was taught, so what I believed, but a recent video
 JA> opened my eyes to some things I'd not been taught, or had
 JA> not considered.

I haven't watched the video, but I can relate. I used to be pre-trib. Much of that idea came from how I was raised, in reading the Left Behind books, listening to Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Impe, etc. It was on my own after reading scripture again and again that there seemed to be contradictions with the pre-trib position.

I still believe in a rapture, only I would put it sometime after the middle of Daniel's last week, after the antichrist in the temple and the abomination of desolation.

~kleb

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  Re: Re: pre trib
  By: kleb to JIMMY ANDERSON on Thu Jul 21 2022 12:34 am

 >  JA> Good day - I've always considered myself a firm believer
 >  JA> in PRE tribulation rapture - now I'm not so sure... It's
 >  JA> what I was taught, so what I believed, but a recent video
 >  JA> opened my eyes to some things I'd not been taught, or had
 >  JA> not considered.
 >
 > I haven't watched the video, but I can relate. I used to be pre-trib. Much
 > of that idea came from how I was raised, in reading the Left Behind books,
 > listening to Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Impe, etc. It was on my own after
 > reading scripture again and again that there seemed to be contradictions
 > with the pre-trib position.
 >
 > I still believe in a rapture, only I would put it sometime after the middle
 > of Daniel's last week, after the antichrist in the temple and the
 > abomination of desolation.
 >
 > ~kleb

Pre-tribulation makes no sense whatsoever and is clearly a false doctorine. How
could there be mass persecution of Christians AFTER they have already been
raptured? The order, which is clearly stated in Revelations, is the anti-Christ
takes his seat in the temple, reveals himself half way into the "week" as the
anti-Christ, begins the abomination of desolation (which will be when the mass
apostasy occurs) followed by the rapture and God's subsequent Wrath.

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  Re: Re: pre trib
  By: Andeddu to kleb on Tue Sep 27 2022 02:13 am

 > Pre-tribulation makes no sense whatsoever and is clearly a false doctorine.
 > could there be mass persecution of Christians AFTER they have already been
 > raptured? The order, which is clearly stated in Revelations, is the anti-Chr
 > takes his seat in the temple, reveals himself half way into the "week" as th
 > anti-Christ, begins the abomination of desolation (which will be when the ma
 > apostasy occurs) followed by the rapture and God's subsequent Wrath.
 >

This position is usually based on a hidden assumption that there is no
"run-up" to the Tribulation, and/or there can only be one "bunch" of
resurrected believers--all necessarily part of the singular rapture event.
These assumptions don't mesh with Pre-Trib theology, and Pre-Trib is what
ends up getting abandoned, rather than the offending assumptions. 

Consider the alternative:
The world stage, the players, and the culture
mechanations are all in constant, preparatory (forgive the term) evolution.

Revelation is clear that evangelistic activity during the Tribulation is not
only present, but effective.  It is these evangelists (the 1st being the
144,000 intentionally "left behind," tasked with Tribulation evangelism)
and their subsequent converts that face Tribulation persecution.

The Church has been raptured, which is why we can say that the Church is
preserved from the Tribulation, and why there is not only an urgency to be
saved from eternal damnation, but also saved from the threat of being "left
behind" after the rapture.  Both are correct and proper motivations for
salvation today. 

It also squares with Christians being persecuted during the time of the
Tribulation; these are Tribualtion converts.

Also, considering beyond Trib period, this squares with Isa. 65 & Zech. 8's
revelation of apparent lifespans during the Messianic Kingdom to follow:
At the end of the Trib, when God "truncates" ("Unless the days be shortened")
the Trib at the 7-year mark, there are alive Christians - "sheep" - to be
seperated from the "goats" at the inaugeration of the Millennial Kingdom. It
is these persons who will continue to have children during the Millennium.
This explains why there are those who will feign allegiance to Christ as
King, but side with Satan when given the opportunity to openly band together
in rebellion, foolishly believing in their ability to overthrow God, just as
the angels were once convinced they could do the same, in Heaven's history
preceeding human history (Rev 20). 

Recall how I John 4:2-3 where John indicates that the spirit of the
antichrist is already in the world?  That's because Satan does not know when
the rapture will be, either.  I am convinced that Satan is always influencing
world powers and has earmarked certain individuals to hold the Tribulation
"offices" once it has begun. Whoever the antichrist ends up being, he will
already have the globally influential position needed to execute the treaty
with the Jews that is the "clock-starter" of the Tribulation, and have
the national dictatorial command necessary to allow/protect Jews to practice
OT temple worship again in Jerusalem. But he'll recind at the 3.5 year mark,
signalling the events of the latter half of the Tribulation.

Satan must continually be ready for this, because it can only happen
at the yet unknown time when the Holy Spirit
(II Thess 2:7 - He who letteth [permits/restrains] will continue to do so,
until He) is withdrawn at the time of the Rapture. This is consistent with
God's statment in Genesis 3 that His Spirit will not always strive with
[restrain] man. He will be removed to allow man to express the fullness of
his rebellion, seeing the "perfect specimen" arise to the station of deity
from within his own ranks - The Antichrist - man's counterfeit/substitute
version of God's Christ in an attempt to be his own god, once and for all.

The apostasy is simply those who practice a faithless religion.  It happens
today, it will happen then.  Fallen humanity is self-presevationist,
even among those who claim to be Christian-leaders and followers alike.

The revealed history-future tracks, just as it was offered. Remember,
revealed isn't revealed unless it's revealed. It can't be mystified at the
same time.

1. There is a church -the collective of all true believers- now. (Matt 16:18,
Rev chapters 1-3)

2. The church will be raptured before the Tribulation (I Thess 5:9)
by Christ calling unto Himself His Bride, the church (John 14:3), which He
purchased though a betrothal contract executed by His own blood (I Cor
11:35).  Note how Revelation 4 starts: "This is what will happen after these
things," with "these things" referring back to the instructions given
to the whole church by proxy of the seven particular churches.
After dealing with the church, Christ inagurates his direct rule of Creation
by receving from God the Father (Rev 4) the Title Deed of Creation (Rev 5),
and purge the earth of the unrighteous squatters (Rev 6:1 thru Rev 20:3).

3. There will be evangelists given to the Tribulation time (Rev 7:1-8, 11:3)

4. There will be those who convert during the Tribulation (Rev 7:9-17)

5. These converts will be vigorously persecuted (Rev 7:8-12, 13:7)

6. God will punish the rebellious and purge the earth of their control.
(Tribulation weeks: Daniel 9:24 gives the ultimate purpose of general
tribulation-to purge sinfulness and rebellion-culminating in the 70th week
and the Great Tribulation of Matt 24:21)

7. Satan will be bound/removed from the world during the Millennium. (Rev
20:2-3)

8. God will inagurate the Millennial Kingdom, wherin will enter the few
surviving Tribulation Christian converts, alongside the resurrected saved.
(Matt 25:31 > Trib converts + I Cor 15:51-52 > Ressurrection and rapture of
saved in Christ + Rev 20:4-5 > Resurrection of Tribulation martyrs)

9. The earth will return to an Edenic state, but the "mortals" will still be
marred by their carnality and rebellious heart - proof that it is our own sin
nature and not "the devil that makes us do it." (Rev 20:3, Isaiah 11:6, 65:25)

10. Satan is loosed to consolidate those opposed to God and Christ in their
heart into an actual army, for a final attempt at the coup Satan has desired
since his fall. (Rev 20:7-9, Isa. 14:13)

11. Christ effortlessly obliterates this rebellion. (Rev 20:9)

12. Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire. (Rev 20:10)

13. Unsaved dead resurrected from Hell and cast into the Lake of Fire. (Rev
20:5, 20:14)

14. Sin-scarred creation discarded. (II Peter 3 seems to indicate that
creation is "disbanded" at the sub-atomic level)

15. Creation and inauguration of the New Heaven and New Earth - one not
touched with the scar of sin (together with the resurrection of all believers
into a glorified body) shows that God intends a wholeness for those He loves
and died for, a wholeness that we are made aware of, but is actually beyond
our true comprehension. (Rev 21-22)

The timeline here ends with a glorious culmination of the Gospel--and a
gospel itself at that--peace, life, liberty, wholeness, and communion with
the God of our creation and salvation. 

I don't think there is any reason to think anything but the linear, standard
interpretation of Revelation and related Scripture. 
It all fits and flows together just the way it was revealed.

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  Re: Re: pre trib
  By: Homefriedspam to Andeddu on Fri Oct 28 2022 10:56 pm

 > This position is usually based on a hidden assumption that there is no
 > "run-up" to the Tribulation, and/or there can only be one "bunch" of
 > resurrected believers--all necessarily part of the singular rapture event.
 > These assumptions don't mesh with Pre-Trib theology, and Pre-Trib is what
 > ends up getting abandoned, rather than the offending assumptions.
<SNIP>

The question is: Will Christians face the challenges of Daniel's 70th Week?

If pre-Tribbers are mistaken, they will not be mentally prepared to take on the
challenges and opportunities in relation to Abomination of Desolation.

"For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;
it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure - for the
fine linen is the righteous deeds of the SAINTS. (Rev 19:7-8)

This means that the wedding takes place in Rev 19, which is not the beginning
-- is it?

Also, do you think the Bride of Christ clothes herself with the righteous deeds
of someone else, such a Tribulations Saints? Those who miss the Rapture? I
don't think so. These Saints ARE the Church, otherwise known as those who are
saved.

Jesus mentions his glorious coming in Matthew 24:29-31 and tells 5 parables to
help explain that return during the rest of Matthew 24 and 25. All of those
parables are about His glorious return in the clouds during which EVERY eye
will see Him. The parables cannot be about a hidden secret rapture that Jesus
NEVER mentioned.

Passages such as: "Of that day and hour, no man knows" are about the Glorious
return, etc... nothing about this group of parables can be about a pre-Trib
rapture that Jesus NEVER discussed. Now in relation to the parable of the wise
and wicked servants, there is more evidence that it is about the glorious
return as well. Notice the sins of the wicked servant and how he beats his
fellow servants. This is an echo of Jesus' statement in context back in Matthew
24:10-11 where he stated "Those who fall away betray and hate their former
brothers and sisters in Christ." But even more significant is the fact that the
wicked servant eats and drinks with drunkards. So you have to ask yourself:
"Why is this a sin? Jesus ate and drank with sinners all the time." Christians
are to associate with sinners and win them over to Christ. So why is THIS sin
worthy of being cut to pieces by Jesus? The reason is because it happens during
the Mark of the Beast. We know this because the only way to buy food and drink
at that time will be under The Mark. So by logic, the only way eating and
drinking with drunkards is a sin is if one has taken The Mark. The parable
thereafter goes on to mention that the good servant was able to eat during this
time becuase he had stored food away prior to the Great Tribulation.

Anyway, there is a lot to this, such as the 144,000 (12,000 from each of the
Biblical 12 Tribes) coming down, etc...

Those who believe in the pre-Trib should just be aware that if they are wrong
they MUST know why they are wrong and continue to walk the narrow path.

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