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dovenet / Internet / Re: the nothing to hide a

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* Re: the nothing to hide aOtto Reverse
+* Re: the nothing to hide aMRO
|+- Re: the nothing to hide aBoraxman
|+* the nothing to hide aOgg
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|| |    `* the nothing to hide aMRO
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|| |      |`- Re: the nothing to hide aGamgee
|| |      +* the nothing to hide aDigital Man
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|| |      |||`* the nothing to hide acr1mson
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|| |      | +- the nothing to hide aAndre
|| |      | +- the nothing to hide aMRO
|| |      | `* Re: the nothing to hide aVk3jed
|| |      |  +* Re: the nothing to hide aNightfox
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|| |      |  |`* Re: the nothing to hide aVk3jed
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|| |      |  | || `- Re: the nothing to hide aArelor
|| |      |  | |`- Re: the nothing to hide aVk3jed
|| |      |  | `* Re: the nothing to hide apoindexter FORTRAN
|| |      |  |  `- Re: the nothing to hide aVk3jed
|| |      |  `* Re: the nothing to hide aMRO
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|| |      `- Re: the nothing to hide aVk3jed
|| `* the nothing to hide aJazzy J
||  `- Re: the nothing to hide aBoraxman
|`* Re: the nothing to hide aMoondog
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| `* Re: the nothing to hide aBoraxman
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|     `- Re: the nothing to hide apoindexter FORTRAN
`- Re: the nothing to hide aBoraxman

Pages:123
Re: the nothing to hide a

<6221F9C4.743.dove-internet@bbs.radiomentor.org>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/dovenet/article-flat.php?id=626&group=DOVE-Net.Internet#626

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From: andre@VERT/RDOMENTR (Andre)
To: Vk3jed
Subject: Re: the nothing to hide a
Message-ID: <6221F9C4.743.dove-internet@bbs.radiomentor.org>
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 22:36:36 -0600
X-Comment-To: Vk3jed
Path: rocksolidbbs.com!not-for-mail
Organization: Radio Mentor BBS
Newsgroups: DOVE-Net.Internet
In-Reply-To: <6221DD91.3151.dove-internet@freeway.apana.org.au>
References: <6221DD91.3151.dove-internet@freeway.apana.org.au>
X-FTN-PID: Synchronet 3.19c-Linux master/087508b43 Mar 2 2022 GCC 9.3.0
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 by: Andre - Fri, 4 Mar 2022 04:36 UTC

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Vk3jed to MRO on Fri Mar 04 2022 06:57 pm

MR>> well, we're assuming people here are somewhat powerusers, and they
MR>> have multiple computers and devices. also it helps to have some
MR>> type of hardware firewall up. ---

Vk> That still doesn't necessarily mean NAT. Firewalls have been around _much_
Vk> longer than NAT.

Probably does. Most home users only have a single IP.

Firewalls only preceeded NAT by few years, and stateful firewalls came a couple years after NAT.

- Andre

---
■ Synchronet ■ Radio Mentor BBS - bbs.radiomentor.org

Re: the nothing to hide a

<6221FADA.744.dove-internet@bbs.radiomentor.org>

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From: andre@VERT/RDOMENTR (Andre)
To: Vk3jed
Subject: Re: the nothing to hide a
Message-ID: <6221FADA.744.dove-internet@bbs.radiomentor.org>
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 22:41:14 -0600
X-Comment-To: Vk3jed
Path: rocksolidbbs.com!not-for-mail
Organization: Radio Mentor BBS
Newsgroups: DOVE-Net.Internet
In-Reply-To: <6221DD91.3150.dove-internet@freeway.apana.org.au>
References: <6221DD91.3150.dove-internet@freeway.apana.org.au>
X-FTN-PID: Synchronet 3.19c-Linux master/087508b43 Mar 2 2022 GCC 9.3.0
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 by: Andre - Fri, 4 Mar 2022 04:41 UTC

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Fri Mar 04 2022 06:55 pm

Ni>> thought pretty much everyone with internet at home would be using a
Ni>> router, and I thought NAT a standard feature of a router for some
Ni>> level of protection.

Vk> NAT != security. You've fallen for the big myth that NAT is somehow more
Vk> secure. All it does is screw up some protocols (FTP anyone?), and puts
Vk> arbitrary limits on incoming traffic (2 BBSs on the same port, NO WAY!).

You're both conflating NAT and PAT, and neither of them screw up protocols. Stateful firewalls screw up protocols if they're misconfigured and not tracking the full conversation.

Vk> ;) iptables on Linux does an excellent job

The only thing IPTABLES is good at is that it's stable and free. It's archaic and damn near useless for anything other than port blocking and logging traffic.

- Andre

---
■ Synchronet ■ Radio Mentor BBS - bbs.radiomentor.org

Re: the nothing to hide a

<62220982.3054.dove-internet@palantirbbs.ddns.net>

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From: arelor@VERT/PALANT (Arelor)
To: Andre
Subject: Re: the nothing to hide a
Message-ID: <62220982.3054.dove-internet@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 23:43:46 -0600
X-Comment-To: Andre
Path: rocksolidbbs.com!not-for-mail
Organization: Palantir
Newsgroups: DOVE-Net.Internet
In-Reply-To: <6221FADA.744.dove-internet@bbs.radiomentor.org>
References: <6221FADA.744.dove-internet@bbs.radiomentor.org>
X-FTN-PID: Synchronet 3.19c-Linux master/80de2727a Feb 28 2022 GCC 5.5.0
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 by: Arelor - Fri, 4 Mar 2022 05:43 UTC

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Andre to Vk3jed on Fri Mar 04 2022 05:41 am

> The only thing IPTABLES is good at is that it's stable and free. It's archai
> and damn near useless for anything other than port blocking and logging
> traffic.
>

I am more of a pf fan than an iptables fan, but Iptables is actually fine for
redirecting, man-in-the-middleing and doing other tricks other than blocking
and logging.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: the nothing to hide a

<62222091.747.dove-internet@bbs.radiomentor.org>

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From: andre@VERT/RDOMENTR (Andre)
To: Arelor
Subject: Re: the nothing to hide a
Message-ID: <62222091.747.dove-internet@bbs.radiomentor.org>
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 01:22:09 -0600
X-Comment-To: Arelor
Path: rocksolidbbs.com!not-for-mail
Organization: Radio Mentor BBS
Newsgroups: DOVE-Net.Internet
In-Reply-To: <62220982.3054.dove-internet@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
References: <62220982.3054.dove-internet@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
X-FTN-PID: Synchronet 3.19c-Linux master/087508b43 Mar 2 2022 GCC 9.3.0
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 by: Andre - Fri, 4 Mar 2022 07:22 UTC

> I am more of a pf fan than an iptables fan, but Iptables is actually fine for
> redirecting, man-in-the-middleing and doing other tricks other than blocking
> and logging.

Yes, but that's not IPTABLES doing any of that. All it's doing is managing
packet routing and state (I know I'm oversimplifying it, but let's be
realistic about what people actually do with it most of the time).

- Andre

---
� Synchronet � Radio Mentor BBS - bbs.radiomentor.org

Re: the nothing to hide a

<62225F29.3056.dove-internet@palantirbbs.ddns.net>

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From: arelor@VERT/PALANT (Arelor)
To: Andre
Subject: Re: the nothing to hide a
Message-ID: <62225F29.3056.dove-internet@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 05:49:13 -0600
X-Comment-To: Andre
Path: rocksolidbbs.com!not-for-mail
Organization: Palantir
Newsgroups: DOVE-Net.Internet
In-Reply-To: <62222091.747.dove-internet@bbs.radiomentor.org>
References: <62222091.747.dove-internet@bbs.radiomentor.org>
X-FTN-PID: Synchronet 3.19c-Linux master/80de2727a Feb 28 2022 GCC 5.5.0
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 by: Arelor - Fri, 4 Mar 2022 11:49 UTC

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Andre to Arelor on Fri Mar 04 2022 08:22 am

> > I am more of a pf fan than an iptables fan, but Iptables is actually fine
> > redirecting, man-in-the-middleing and doing other tricks other than blocki
> > and logging.
>
> Yes, but that's not IPTABLES doing any of that. All it's doing is managing
> packet routing and state (I know I'm oversimplifying it, but let's be
> realistic about what people actually do with it most of the time).
>
>
> - Andre
>

If you want to split hairs, it is not Iptables doing that. It is Netfilter.
Iptables is only loading rules into the kernel :-)

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: the nothing to hide a

<6224923D.3159.dove-internet@freeway.apana.org.au>

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From: vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY (Vk3jed)
To: MRO
Subject: Re: the nothing to hide a
Message-ID: <6224923D.3159.dove-internet@freeway.apana.org.au>
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 13:43:00 +1100
X-Comment-To: MRO
Path: rocksolidbbs.com!not-for-mail
Organization: Freeway BBS
Newsgroups: DOVE-Net.Internet
In-Reply-To: <6221F3DB.1172.dove-int@bbses.info>
References: <6221F3DB.1172.dove-int@bbses.info>
X-FTN-PID: Synchronet 3.17c-Linux Nov 3 2019 GCC 4.6.3
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 by: Vk3jed - Sun, 6 Mar 2022 02:43 UTC

-=> On 03-04-22 05:11, MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-

MR> so what are we arguing about? you neek saying NAT over and over again.

Maybe try reading the message. :)

.... An Elephant; A Mouse built to government specifications.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au

Re: the nothing to hide a

<6224923D.3160.dove-internet@freeway.apana.org.au>

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From: vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY (Vk3jed)
To: Andre
Subject: Re: the nothing to hide a
Message-ID: <6224923D.3160.dove-internet@freeway.apana.org.au>
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 13:45:00 +1100
X-Comment-To: Andre
Path: rocksolidbbs.com!not-for-mail
Organization: Freeway BBS
Newsgroups: DOVE-Net.Internet
In-Reply-To: <6221F9C4.743.dove-internet@bbs.radiomentor.org>
References: <6221F9C4.743.dove-internet@bbs.radiomentor.org>
X-FTN-PID: Synchronet 3.17c-Linux Nov 3 2019 GCC 4.6.3
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 by: Vk3jed - Sun, 6 Mar 2022 02:45 UTC

-=> On 03-04-22 05:36, Andre wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Vk> That still doesn't necessarily mean NAT. Firewalls have been around _much_
Vk> longer than NAT.

An> Probably does. Most home users only have a single IP.

Another assumption - who says the BBS was going to be hosted at home? Sure,
many are (including mine), but I could have used (and did consider using) a
PS.

An> Firewalls only preceeded NAT by few years, and stateful firewalls came
An> a couple years after NAT.

Sounds about right.

.... Dachshund kennel ad: Get a long little doggie.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au

Re: the nothing to hide a

<6224923D.3161.dove-internet@freeway.apana.org.au>

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From: vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY (Vk3jed)
To: Andre
Subject: Re: the nothing to hide a
Message-ID: <6224923D.3161.dove-internet@freeway.apana.org.au>
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 13:48:00 +1100
X-Comment-To: Andre
Path: rocksolidbbs.com!not-for-mail
Organization: Freeway BBS
Newsgroups: DOVE-Net.Internet
In-Reply-To: <6221FADA.744.dove-internet@bbs.radiomentor.org>
References: <6221FADA.744.dove-internet@bbs.radiomentor.org>
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 by: Vk3jed - Sun, 6 Mar 2022 02:48 UTC

-=> On 03-04-22 05:41, Andre wrote to Vk3jed <=-

An> You're both conflating NAT and PAT, and neither of them screw up
An> protocols. Stateful firewalls screw up protocols if they're
An> misconfigured and not tracking the full conversation.

Hmm, what about active FTP? DCC (on IRC)? Just to name a couple that have
been affected.

.... Observe the procedures of a general alert.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au

Re: the nothing to hide a

<6224C2A7.1174.dove-int@bbses.info>

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From: mro@VERT/BBSESINF (MRO)
To: Vk3jed
Subject: Re: the nothing to hide a
Message-ID: <6224C2A7.1174.dove-int@bbses.info>
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 01:18:15 -0600
X-Comment-To: Vk3jed
Path: rocksolidbbs.com!not-for-mail
Organization: bbses.info
Newsgroups: DOVE-Net.Internet
In-Reply-To: <6224923D.3159.dove-internet@freeway.apana.org.au>
References: <6224923D.3159.dove-internet@freeway.apana.org.au>
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 by: MRO - Sun, 6 Mar 2022 07:18 UTC

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Vk3jed to MRO on Sun Mar 06 2022 08:43 pm

> -=> On 03-04-22 05:11, MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-
>
> MR> so what are we arguing about? you neek saying NAT over and over again.
>
> Maybe try reading the message. :)
>

you: nat nat nat. it's not nat. nat nat nat
---
■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: the nothing to hide a

<6228B9E0.5072.dove.dove-int@realitycheckbbs.org>

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From: poindexter.fortran@VERT/REALITY (poindexter FORTRAN)
To: Vk3jed
Subject: Re: the nothing to hide a
Message-ID: <6228B9E0.5072.dove.dove-int@realitycheckbbs.org>
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 23:56:00 -0800
X-Comment-To: Vk3jed
Path: rocksolidbbs.com!not-for-mail
Organization: realitycheckBBS
Newsgroups: DOVE-Net.Internet
In-Reply-To: <6221DD91.3150.dove-internet@freeway.apana.org.au>
References: <6221DD91.3150.dove-internet@freeway.apana.org.au>
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 by: poindexter FORTRAN - Fri, 4 Mar 2022 07:56 UTC

-=> Vk3jed wrote to Nightfox <=-

-=> On 02-27-22 22:25, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Vk> NAT != security. You've fallen for the big myth that NAT is somehow
Vk> more secure. All it does is screw up some protocols (FTP anyone?), and
Vk> puts arbitrary limits on incoming traffic (2 BBSs on the same port, NO
Vk> WAY!).

It's in no way a secure model, but I liked my first setup, where I had a
single IP address and a Linux box with 2 network cards. I ran all of my
services on the box directly with iptables running, and NATed the rest of my
lan over the second card.

Easy, less hassle with NAT, and everything worked.

Admittedly, this was in kindler, gentler times.

.... No ceremonies are necessary.
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
� Synchronet � .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.

Re: the nothing to hide a

<6229597C.21.dove-internet@steppingstonebbs.com>

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From: cr1mson@VERT/STEPPING (cr1mson)
To: MRO
Subject: Re: the nothing to hide a
Message-ID: <6229597C.21.dove-internet@steppingstonebbs.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 12:50:52 -0600
X-Comment-To: MRO
Path: rocksolidbbs.com!not-for-mail
Organization: Stepping Stone BBS
Newsgroups: DOVE-Net.Internet
In-Reply-To: <6224C2A7.1174.dove-int@bbses.info>
References: <6224C2A7.1174.dove-int@bbses.info>
X-FTN-PID: Synchronet 3.19b-Win32 master/a2a9dc027 Jan 2 2022 MSC 1928
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 by: cr1mson - Wed, 9 Mar 2022 18:50 UTC

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: MRO to Vk3jed on Sun Mar 06 2022 08:18 am

MR> Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
MR> By: Vk3jed to MRO on Sun Mar 06 2022 08:43 pm

>> -=> On 03-04-22 05:11, MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-

> MR>> so what are we arguing about? you neek saying NAT over and over
> MR>> again.

>> Maybe try reading the message. :)

MR> you: nat nat nat. it's not nat. nat nat nat

All these nats. I think someone needs to start spraying for bugs.
---

Sincerely,
Jon Justvig
Stepping Stone BBS
telnet://steppingstonebbs.com
http://steppingstonebbs.com
---
■ Synchronet ■ Stepping Stone BBS - steppingstonebbs.com

Re: the nothing to hide a

<622B2AFA.3165.dove-internet@freeway.apana.org.au>

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From: vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY (Vk3jed)
To: poindexter FORTRAN
Subject: Re: the nothing to hide a
Message-ID: <622B2AFA.3165.dove-internet@freeway.apana.org.au>
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 14:20:00 +1100
X-Comment-To: poindexter FORTRAN
Path: rocksolidbbs.com!not-for-mail
Organization: Freeway BBS
Newsgroups: DOVE-Net.Internet
In-Reply-To: <6228B9E0.5072.dove.dove-int@realitycheckbbs.org>
References: <6228B9E0.5072.dove.dove-int@realitycheckbbs.org>
X-FTN-PID: Synchronet 3.17c-Linux Nov 3 2019 GCC 4.6.3
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 by: Vk3jed - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 03:20 UTC

-=> On 03-04-22 06:56, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Vk3jed <=-

pF> It's in no way a secure model, but I liked my first setup, where I had
pF> a single IP address and a Linux box with 2 network cards. I ran all of
pF> my services on the box directly with iptables running, and NATed the
pF> rest of my lan over the second card.

pF> Easy, less hassle with NAT, and everything worked.

Yeah not a bad option, if you need only one IP. And there's other ways to
harden Internet facing systems, if needed.

.... Command not found. Damn, it was here a minute ago... hold on...
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au

the nothing to hide a

<622DDCFC.2296.dove-internet@jayscafe.net>

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From: jazzy.j@VERT/JAYSCAFE (Jazzy J)
To: Boraxman
Subject: the nothing to hide a
Message-ID: <622DDCFC.2296.dove-internet@jayscafe.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 22:52:00 -0600
X-Comment-To: Boraxman
Path: rocksolidbbs.com!not-for-mail
Organization: Jay's Cafe'
Newsgroups: DOVE-Net.Internet
In-Reply-To: <62084A5E.5205.dove-int@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
References: <62084A5E.5205.dove-int@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
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 by: Jazzy J - Sun, 13 Mar 2022 04:52 UTC

-=> Quoting Boraxman to Ogg <=-
I totally agree. We don't expect privacy so it isn't an issue for many
people.

I'm a quad, and I have Amazon Services throughout the house. For myself,
the abdication of my privacy isn't a convenience, it is how I can be as
independent as I can.

Security v. Freedom is a lofty argument. The more something is secure, the
less freedom we have. Many people forget this and want 100% of both. Well,
there is nothing that is ever 100% secure nor is there anything that is
ever 100% free -- I think of how much a "free" dog costs in medical bills
after the fact.

The best someone can do is strive to strike a balance between the two.

However, for most people, they don't understand the concept of IoT and
never update their TVs, refrigerators, toasters, you name it. Whatever they
have in their LANs that pull an IP is vulnerable and a security risk.

People also don't value their information. They don't understand that the
myriad of trash they are getting in their email or twit feed, etc. is
largely their own making.

Before we can increase electronic security, we need the public to be
educated on what electronic security touches. I think the average person
would be confounded and overwhelmed with some of the specifics.

Jazzy J

* AmyBW v2.16 *
.... I use Windows... on my car, on my house, but not on my computer!

---
� Synchronet � BayouBBS.Net, Ports 23, 6401 and 6402

Re: the nothing to hide a

<622EB381.5289.dove-int@bbs.mozysswamp.org>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/dovenet/article-flat.php?id=639&group=DOVE-Net.Internet#639

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From: boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS (Boraxman)
To: Jazzy J
Subject: Re: the nothing to hide a
Message-ID: <622EB381.5289.dove-int@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 06:12:00 +1100
X-Comment-To: Jazzy J
Path: rocksolidbbs.com!not-for-mail
Organization: MS & RD BBs
Newsgroups: DOVE-Net.Internet
In-Reply-To: <622DDCFC.2296.dove-internet@jayscafe.net>
References: <622DDCFC.2296.dove-internet@jayscafe.net>
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 by: Boraxman - Sun, 13 Mar 2022 19:12 UTC

-=> Jazzy J wrote to Boraxman <=-

JJ> @MSGID: <622DDCFC.2296.dove-internet@jayscafe.net>
JJ> @REPLY: <62084A5E.5205.dove-int@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
-=> Quoting Boraxman to Ogg <=-
JJ> I totally agree. We don't expect privacy so it isn't an issue for many
JJ> people.

JJ> I'm a quad, and I have Amazon Services throughout the house. For
JJ> myself, the abdication of my privacy isn't a convenience, it is how I
JJ> can be as independent as I can.

JJ> Security v. Freedom is a lofty argument. The more something is secure,
JJ> the less freedom we have. Many people forget this and want 100% of
JJ> both. Well, there is nothing that is ever 100% secure nor is there
JJ> anything that is ever 100% free -- I think of how much a "free" dog
JJ> costs in medical bills after the fact.

JJ> The best someone can do is strive to strike a balance between the two.

JJ> However, for most people, they don't understand the concept of IoT and
JJ> never update their TVs, refrigerators, toasters, you name it. Whatever
JJ> they have in their LANs that pull an IP is vulnerable and a security
JJ> risk.

JJ> People also don't value their information. They don't understand that
JJ> the myriad of trash they are getting in their email or twit feed, etc.
JJ> is largely their own making.

JJ> Before we can increase electronic security, we need the public to be
JJ> educated on what electronic security touches. I think the average
JJ> person would be confounded and overwhelmed with some of the specifics.

JJ> Jazzy J

Who is going to educate the public though? There is no real incentive for the
companies selling these products to do it, in fact, they would thrive of
ignorance and lack of knowledge, as people would default to just purchasing
something to fix a problem.

I think people don't care because they don't want to have to fight, or be
inconvenienced. So instead they try to rationalise away giving away their
privacy and control.

I'm not optimistic about where technology and our relationship is going, not at
all.

.... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
■ Synchronet ■ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org

the nothing to hide a

<623F3C3E.2734.dove-internet@finalzone.ddns.net>

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From: phigan@VERT/FINALZON (Phigan)
To: Digital Man
Subject: the nothing to hide a
Message-ID: <623F3C3E.2734.dove-internet@finalzone.ddns.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 04:15:58 -0500
X-Comment-To: Digital Man
Path: rocksolidbbs.com!not-for-mail
Organization: Final Zone BBS
Newsgroups: DOVE-Net.Internet
In-Reply-To: <621B456C.8377.dove-int@vert.synchro.net>
References: <621B456C.8377.dove-int@vert.synchro.net>
X-FTN-PID: Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 Sep 20 2020 MSC 1927
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 by: Phigan - Sat, 26 Mar 2022 09:15 UTC

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Digital Man to Phigan on Sun Feb 27 2022 01:33 am

> Most Synchronet BBSes (e.g. web.synchro.net).

Aha, up there under "Forum". Not bad! I had not seen anyone set that up yet, only the telnet client in a web page thing. Going to check out themeability or whatever. Thanks :)

---
■ Synchronet ■ Final Zone BBS - finalzone.ddns.net - www.xadara.com

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