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computers / comp.os.linux.misc / Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

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* Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerSevenOverSix
+- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAnonymousCoward
`* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerCarlos E. R.
 `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerSevenOverSix
  `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerCarlos E. R.
   +* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAndreas Kohlbach
   |`* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerCarlos E. R.
   | +- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAndreas Kohlbach
   | +- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerSevenOverSix
   | +* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerSevenOverSix
   | |`* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerCarlos E. R.
   | | `- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerThe Natural Philosopher
   | +* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerKerr-Mudd, John
   | |`- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerCarlos E. R.
   | `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerPeter Flass
   |  `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerRich
   |   `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerCharlie Gibbs
   |    `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerPeter Flass
   |     `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerCarlos E. R.
   |      `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerKerr-Mudd, John
   |       `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |        `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerKerr-Mudd, John
   |         +* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |         |+* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAndrea Croci
   |         ||`* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |         || +* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAragorn
   |         || |+* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |         || ||`* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAragorn
   |         || || +- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |         || || `- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerPeter Flass
   |         || |`* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |         || | `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAragorn
   |         || |  +* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerJ. Clarke
   |         || |  |`- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |         || |  `- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |         || `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneeryamas
   |         ||  `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |         ||   `- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerThe Natural Philosopher
   |         |+* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerCharlie Gibbs
   |         ||+* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAndreas Kohlbach
   |         |||+* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerJeff Gaines
   |         ||||`- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAndreas Kohlbach
   |         |||+* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerCharlie Gibbs
   |         ||||`* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBobbie Sellers
   |         |||| `- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAndreas Kohlbach
   |         |||`* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |         ||| `- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAndreas Kohlbach
   |         ||+* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAhem A Rivet's Shot
   |         |||+- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerCharlie Gibbs
   |         |||+* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerScott Lurndal
   |         ||||+- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |         ||||`* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAhem A Rivet's Shot
   |         |||| +* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAndreas Kohlbach
   |         |||| |`* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAhem A Rivet's Shot
   |         |||| | +* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAndreas Kohlbach
   |         |||| | |`- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAhem A Rivet's Shot
   |         |||| | `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerPeter Flass
   |         |||| |  +- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerJ. Clarke
   |         |||| |  `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBud Frede
   |         |||| |   +- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerThe Natural Philosopher
   |         |||| |   `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |         |||| |    `- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerThe Natural Philosopher
   |         |||| `- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerRichard Kettlewell
   |         |||+* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerJeff Gaines
   |         ||||+* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |         |||||`- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerStéphane CARPENTIER
   |         ||||+* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAhem A Rivet's Shot
   |         |||||`* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBud Frede
   |         ||||| `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAhem A Rivet's Shot
   |         |||||  `- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBud Frede
   |         ||||`- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerD.J.
   |         |||`- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBud Frede
   |         ||`- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |         |+* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAndreas Kohlbach
   |         ||`* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |         || `- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAndreas Kohlbach
   |         |`* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerRich
   |         | `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |         |  +* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAndreas Kohlbach
   |         |  |`* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |         |  | `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAndreas Kohlbach
   |         |  |  `- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |         |  `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerStéphane CARPENTIER
   |         |   `- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |         `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneergareth evans
   |          `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |           `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerDave Garland
   |            `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBobbie Sellers
   |             +- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBranimir Maksimovic
   |             `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAndreas Kohlbach
   |              `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerCarlos E. R.
   |               `- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerAndreas Kohlbach
   `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerSevenOverSix
    `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerCarlos E. R.
     +* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerSevenOverSix
     |+* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerThe Natural Philosopher
     ||`* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerCharlie Gibbs
     || +* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerEli the Bearded
     || |+* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerCharlie Gibbs
     || ||`* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerEli the Bearded
     || || +* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerCarlos E. R.
     || || +* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerSevenOverSix
     || || `* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerBud Frede
     || |`* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerCarlos E. R.
     || +* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerCarlos E. R.
     || `- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerSevenOverSix
     |`* Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerRich
     `- Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing PioneerThe Natural Philosopher

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Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SevenOverSix)
Subject: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:54:54 -0400
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 by: SevenOverSix - Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:54 UTC

It is reported that Sir Clive Sinclair has died at age 81.

Sinclair is best known for his "ZX" (I think that's "Zed-X" for
Brits) affordable computers. The rather crude ZX-80 (which could
also be bought cheaper as a kit) was followed by the somewhat
better ZX-81 and finally Sinclair Spectrum ... which was sort
of a Euro answer to the Commodore-64. Large numbers of people
initially got into computing because Sir Clive brought it into
their price range.

Somewhere near the bottom of The Heap I still have a ZX-81
that probably still works. May have to excavate in honor
of Sir Clive.

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

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From: anonymous@coward.com (AnonymousCoward)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 16:13:51 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: AnonymousCoward - Fri, 17 Sep 2021 16:13 UTC

On Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:54:54 -0400, SevenOverSix wrote:

> It is reported that Sir Clive Sinclair has died at age 81.
>
> Sinclair is best known for his "ZX" (I think that's "Zed-X" for
> Brits) affordable computers. The rather crude ZX-80 (which could
> also be bought cheaper as a kit) was followed by the somewhat
> better ZX-81 and finally Sinclair Spectrum ... which was sort
> of a Euro answer to the Commodore-64. Large numbers of people
> initially got into computing because Sir Clive brought it into
> their price range.
>
> Somewhere near the bottom of The Heap I still have a ZX-81
> that probably still works. May have to excavate in honor
> of Sir Clive.

I had a ZX Spectrum 128k + 3

It was my introduction to computers, though i only used it to play games :-D

It's floppy disks were much cooler than the 3'1/2 ones. They have two sides!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Maxell_Compact_Floppy_Disk_CF2-D_20050125.jpg

The last time i turned it on around 15 years ago, still worked.

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Fri, 17 Sep 2021 17:38 UTC

On 17/09/2021 15.54, SevenOverSix wrote:
> It is reported that Sir Clive Sinclair has died at age 81.
>
> Sinclair is best known for his "ZX" (I think that's "Zed-X" for
> Brits) affordable computers. The rather crude ZX-80 (which could
> also be bought cheaper as a kit) was followed by the somewhat
> better ZX-81 and finally Sinclair Spectrum ... which was sort
> of a Euro answer to the Commodore-64. Large numbers of people
> initially got into computing because Sir Clive brought it into
> their price range.
>
> Somewhere near the bottom of The Heap I still have a ZX-81
> that probably still works. May have to excavate in honor
> of Sir Clive.

Requiescat in pace.

He deserves all the honours.

The ZX Spectrum was the first computer I could touch and write programs
on it, although in my case it was borrowed, not owned.

Previous to that I wrote programs on a Ti 57 and a TI-58C programmable
calculator, but not many consider those as computers.

Oh, at college there were computers, but as to touch them... It was a
VAX. I don't remember if that was before or after the Spectrum. Probably
after.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SevenOverSix)
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 by: SevenOverSix - Wed, 22 Sep 2021 04:11 UTC

On 9/17/21 1:38 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 17/09/2021 15.54, SevenOverSix wrote:
>> It is reported that Sir Clive Sinclair has died at age 81.
>>
>> Sinclair is best known for his "ZX" (I think that's "Zed-X" for
>> Brits) affordable computers. The rather crude ZX-80 (which could
>> also be bought cheaper as a kit) was followed by the somewhat
>> better ZX-81 and finally Sinclair Spectrum ... which was sort
>> of a Euro answer to the Commodore-64. Large numbers of people
>> initially got into computing because Sir Clive brought it into
>> their price range.
>>
>> Somewhere near the bottom of The Heap I still have a ZX-81
>> that probably still works. May have to excavate in honor
>> of Sir Clive.
>
> Requiescat in pace.
>
> He deserves all the honours.
>
> The ZX Spectrum was the first computer I could touch and write programs
> on it, although in my case it was borrowed, not owned.
>
> Previous to that I wrote programs on a Ti 57 and a TI-58C programmable
> calculator, but not many consider those as computers.
>
> Oh, at college there were computers, but as to touch them... It was a
> VAX. I don't remember if that was before or after the Spectrum. Probably
> after.

You could LOOK, but not TOUCH the mini-mainframes. Only
the Holy Elite were allowed in the Computer Room. You
could offer your sacrifice of punch-cards in the room
next door of course ............

Oh, FOUND my ZX-81 ... and it WORKS !!! I even found the
plug-in thermal PRINTER.

Need to find a compatible tape cassette unit now. Junk
store ? COULD cheat and record to a modern PC audio
capture, but it's just not the same somehow :-)

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:13:12 +0200
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Wed, 22 Sep 2021 07:13 UTC

On 22/09/2021 06.11, SevenOverSix wrote:
> On 9/17/21 1:38 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 17/09/2021 15.54, SevenOverSix wrote:
>>> It is reported that Sir Clive Sinclair has died at age 81.
>>>
>>> Sinclair is best known for his "ZX" (I think that's "Zed-X" for
>>> Brits) affordable computers. The rather crude ZX-80 (which could
>>> also be bought cheaper as a kit) was followed by the somewhat
>>> better ZX-81 and finally Sinclair Spectrum ... which was sort
>>> of a Euro answer to the Commodore-64. Large numbers of people
>>> initially got into computing because Sir Clive brought it into
>>> their price range.
>>>
>>> Somewhere near the bottom of The Heap I still have a ZX-81
>>> that probably still works. May have to excavate in honor
>>> of Sir Clive.
>>
>> Requiescat in pace.
>>
>> He deserves all the honours.
>>
>> The ZX Spectrum was the first computer I could touch and write programs
>> on it, although in my case it was borrowed, not owned.
>>
>> Previous to that I wrote programs on a Ti 57 and a TI-58C programmable
>> calculator, but not many consider those as computers.
>>
>> Oh, at college there were computers, but as to touch them... It was a
>> VAX. I don't remember if that was before or after the Spectrum. Probably
>> after.
>
>   You could LOOK, but not TOUCH the mini-mainframes. Only
>   the Holy Elite were allowed in the Computer Room. You
>   could offer your sacrifice of punch-cards in the room
>   next door of course ............

Oh, we had our lab time on the terminals.

However, the machine got so busy with all the students compiling and
testing their Pascal assignments (specially in the last weeks), that the
editor would take seconds to respond to a keypress. So we counted: five
lines down, then 12 letters right, then three deletes, then replace
"tye" with "the", then wait :-D

It was then that I decided I needed my own computer and asked my father
to get me one. An Amstrad PC 1512, the student association had an
agreement with a vendor. A bit weird vendor... it was not a computer
shop, but a warehouse of some industrial thing... There no home PC
computer vendors by that time, they were starting.

Oh, before getting one I tried renting computer time at a place. You
paid by the hour. I think it was there where I met Turbo Pascal for the
first time.

The next problem was transferring my assignment in text on a floppy to
the Vax, with help from a teacher. We used... kermit, perhaps. And then,
edit the assignment to change the peculiarities of turbo pascal to
standard pascal.

>
>   Oh, FOUND my ZX-81 ... and it WORKS !!! I even found the
>   plug-in thermal PRINTER.

Wow :-)

>   Need to find a compatible tape cassette unit now. Junk
>   store ? COULD cheat and record to a modern PC audio
>   capture, but it's just not the same somehow  :-)

Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try, make sure to
not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the experiment, to find out.

Old tape machines with cogs, not belts, will still work. It is the
rubber parts which spoil first. They (tape machines) are still made, saw
something somewhere I don't remember.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

<87r1dg9ydm.fsf@usenet.ankman.de>

 copy mid

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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:57:41 -0400
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X-Face-What-Is-It: Capture Bee from Galaga
 by: Andreas Kohlbach - Wed, 22 Sep 2021 19:57 UTC

On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:13:12 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> On 22/09/2021 06.11, SevenOverSix wrote:
>>
>>   You could LOOK, but not TOUCH the mini-mainframes. Only
>>   the Holy Elite were allowed in the Computer Room. You
>>   could offer your sacrifice of punch-cards in the room
>>   next door of course ............
>
> Oh, we had our lab time on the terminals.
>
> However, the machine got so busy with all the students compiling and
> testing their Pascal assignments (specially in the last weeks), that the
> editor would take seconds to respond to a keypress. So we counted: five
> lines down, then 12 letters right, then three deletes, then replace
> "tye" with "the", then wait :-D
>
> It was then that I decided I needed my own computer and asked my father
> to get me one. An Amstrad PC 1512, the student association had an
> agreement with a vendor. A bit weird vendor... it was not a computer
> shop, but a warehouse of some industrial thing... There no home PC
> computer vendors by that time, they were starting.

That was Spain at that time?

Similar in Germany. Dedicated computer shop chains only showed up later
in the 1980s and had their boom in the 1990s. Then most died.

Then you had general department stores which added home computers by the
early 1980s. Then you had hypermarkets (like Walmart or Carrefour today)
where you (in my case at least) only found products by Commodore. There I
got my C64 (1984) and Amiga 500 (1989) from.

[...]

>>   Need to find a compatible tape cassette unit now. Junk
>>   store ? COULD cheat and record to a modern PC audio
>>   capture, but it's just not the same somehow  :-)
>
> Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try, make sure to
> not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the experiment, to find out.

There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer Buffs"
<https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard of before. They
sent program data via audio the audience record. When I found the show on
Youtube I tested that (extracted the audio at that position) and ran the
resulting WAV in an emulator fir that particular machine on my PC. It my
amazement it worked.

X'Post + F'up alt.folklore.computers

[1] So unknown the IMDB page has only little information and a Wikipedia
page not even exists.
--
Andreas

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

<34ps1ix9m7.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 00:59:46 +0200
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Wed, 22 Sep 2021 22:59 UTC

On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:13:12 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>
>> On 22/09/2021 06.11, SevenOverSix wrote:
>>>
>>>   You could LOOK, but not TOUCH the mini-mainframes. Only
>>>   the Holy Elite were allowed in the Computer Room. You
>>>   could offer your sacrifice of punch-cards in the room
>>>   next door of course ............
>>
>> Oh, we had our lab time on the terminals.
>>
>> However, the machine got so busy with all the students compiling and
>> testing their Pascal assignments (specially in the last weeks), that the
>> editor would take seconds to respond to a keypress. So we counted: five
>> lines down, then 12 letters right, then three deletes, then replace
>> "tye" with "the", then wait :-D
>>
>> It was then that I decided I needed my own computer and asked my father
>> to get me one. An Amstrad PC 1512, the student association had an
>> agreement with a vendor. A bit weird vendor... it was not a computer
>> shop, but a warehouse of some industrial thing... There no home PC
>> computer vendors by that time, they were starting.
>
> That was Spain at that time?

More or less, dates are confusing. Well, the dates when the Amstrad
started selling is known, must be on wikipedia.

>
> Similar in Germany. Dedicated computer shop chains only showed up later
> in the 1980s and had their boom in the 1990s. Then most died.
>
> Then you had general department stores which added home computers by the
> early 1980s.

Yes indeed.

And electronic component shops that besides oscilloscopes could sell you
a computer. Ah, HAM stuff shops, too.

> Then you had hypermarkets (like Walmart or Carrefour today)
> where you (in my case at least) only found products by Commodore. There I
> got my C64 (1984) and Amiga 500 (1989) from.

:-D

>
> [...]
>
>>>   Need to find a compatible tape cassette unit now. Junk
>>>   store ? COULD cheat and record to a modern PC audio
>>>   capture, but it's just not the same somehow  :-)
>>
>> Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try, make sure to
>> not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the experiment, to find out.
>
> There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer Buffs"
> <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard of before. They
> sent program data via audio the audience record. When I found the show on
> Youtube I tested that (extracted the audio at that position) and ran the
> resulting WAV in an emulator fir that particular machine on my PC. It my
> amazement it worked.

Wow.

> X'Post + F'up alt.folklore.computers

I don't have that one subscribed here, so I will keep comp.os.linux.misc.

>
> [1] So unknown the IMDB page has only little information and a Wikipedia
> page not even exists.
>

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

<871r5g9o2e.fsf@usenet.ankman.de>

 copy mid

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Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
Followup-To: poster
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X-Face-What-Is-It: Capture Bee from Galaga
 by: Andreas Kohlbach - Wed, 22 Sep 2021 23:40 UTC

On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 00:59:46 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>
>> X'Post + F'up alt.folklore.computers
>
> I don't have that one subscribed here, so I will keep comp.os.linux.misc.

If you are interested in vintage computers (as you are apparently) I
highly recommend you do.

Although many articles are about American history which might not be that
interesting for us Europeans, there is for example another thread about
Clive Sinclair, as well as other subjects like "British
computers". Traffic is may be 10-20 articles a day with days of 0 in
between.

F'up poster (don't need to subscribe to "my group" ;-)
--
Andreas

PGP fingerprint 952B0A9F12C2FD6C9F7E68DAA9C2EA89D1A370E0

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

<hKydncoQTeY1mdH8nZ2dnUU7-b3NnZ2d@earthlink.com>

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Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SevenOverSix)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 00:37:58 -0400
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 by: SevenOverSix - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 04:37 UTC

On 9/22/21 3:13 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 22/09/2021 06.11, SevenOverSix wrote:
>> On 9/17/21 1:38 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 17/09/2021 15.54, SevenOverSix wrote:
>>>> It is reported that Sir Clive Sinclair has died at age 81.
>>>>
>>>> Sinclair is best known for his "ZX" (I think that's "Zed-X" for
>>>> Brits) affordable computers. The rather crude ZX-80 (which could
>>>> also be bought cheaper as a kit) was followed by the somewhat
>>>> better ZX-81 and finally Sinclair Spectrum ... which was sort
>>>> of a Euro answer to the Commodore-64. Large numbers of people
>>>> initially got into computing because Sir Clive brought it into
>>>> their price range.
>>>>
>>>> Somewhere near the bottom of The Heap I still have a ZX-81
>>>> that probably still works. May have to excavate in honor
>>>> of Sir Clive.
>>>
>>> Requiescat in pace.
>>>
>>> He deserves all the honours.
>>>
>>> The ZX Spectrum was the first computer I could touch and write programs
>>> on it, although in my case it was borrowed, not owned.
>>>
>>> Previous to that I wrote programs on a Ti 57 and a TI-58C programmable
>>> calculator, but not many consider those as computers.
>>>
>>> Oh, at college there were computers, but as to touch them... It was a
>>> VAX. I don't remember if that was before or after the Spectrum. Probably
>>> after.
>>
>>   You could LOOK, but not TOUCH the mini-mainframes. Only
>>   the Holy Elite were allowed in the Computer Room. You
>>   could offer your sacrifice of punch-cards in the room
>>   next door of course ............
>
> Oh, we had our lab time on the terminals.

I came in just a little before terminals.

There was still the high holy Computer Room and,
next door, the temple where you bowed and scraped
and then offered up your stack of punch cards :-)

Minor bribes to the priests were not a bad idea.
Could make the diff between your stuff being done
by tomorrow, or next week.

> However, the machine got so busy with all the students compiling and
> testing their Pascal assignments (specially in the last weeks), that the
> editor would take seconds to respond to a keypress. So we counted: five
> lines down, then 12 letters right, then three deletes, then replace
> "tye" with "the", then wait :-D
>
> It was then that I decided I needed my own computer and asked my father
> to get me one. An Amstrad PC 1512, the student association had an
> agreement with a vendor. A bit weird vendor... it was not a computer
> shop, but a warehouse of some industrial thing... There no home PC
> computer vendors by that time, they were starting.
>
> Oh, before getting one I tried renting computer time at a place. You
> paid by the hour. I think it was there where I met Turbo Pascal for the
> first time.
>
> The next problem was transferring my assignment in text on a floppy to
> the Vax, with help from a teacher. We used... kermit, perhaps. And then,
> edit the assignment to change the peculiarities of turbo pascal to
> standard pascal.
>
>>
>>   Oh, FOUND my ZX-81 ... and it WORKS !!! I even found the
>>   plug-in thermal PRINTER.
>
> Wow :-)
>
>
>>   Need to find a compatible tape cassette unit now. Junk
>>   store ? COULD cheat and record to a modern PC audio
>>   capture, but it's just not the same somehow  :-)
>
> Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try, make sure to
> not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the experiment, to find out.
>
> Old tape machines with cogs, not belts, will still work. It is the
> rubber parts which spoil first. They (tape machines) are still made, saw
> something somewhere I don't remember.

An audio capture SHOULD work. The baud rate was SO slow
that even compression algos couldn't screw it up. Still,
I'd rather use an actual cassette deck For Originality.

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

<pf2dnR1uFKSDm9H8nZ2dnUU7-X_NnZ2d@earthlink.com>

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 by: SevenOverSix - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 04:44 UTC

On 9/22/21 6:59 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:13:12 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>
>>> On 22/09/2021 06.11, SevenOverSix wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   You could LOOK, but not TOUCH the mini-mainframes. Only
>>>>   the Holy Elite were allowed in the Computer Room. You
>>>>   could offer your sacrifice of punch-cards in the room
>>>>   next door of course ............
>>>
>>> Oh, we had our lab time on the terminals.
>>>
>>> However, the machine got so busy with all the students compiling and
>>> testing their Pascal assignments (specially in the last weeks), that the
>>> editor would take seconds to respond to a keypress. So we counted: five
>>> lines down, then 12 letters right, then three deletes, then replace
>>> "tye" with "the", then wait :-D
>>>
>>> It was then that I decided I needed my own computer and asked my father
>>> to get me one. An Amstrad PC 1512, the student association had an
>>> agreement with a vendor. A bit weird vendor... it was not a computer
>>> shop, but a warehouse of some industrial thing... There no home PC
>>> computer vendors by that time, they were starting.
>>
>> That was Spain at that time?
>
> More or less, dates are confusing. Well, the dates when the Amstrad
> started selling is known, must be on wikipedia.
>
>>
>> Similar in Germany. Dedicated computer shop chains only showed up later
>> in the 1980s and had their boom in the 1990s. Then most died.
>>
>> Then you had general department stores which added home computers by the
>> early 1980s.
>
> Yes indeed.
>
> And electronic component shops that besides oscilloscopes could sell you
> a computer. Ah, HAM stuff shops, too.
>
>> Then you had hypermarkets (like Walmart or Carrefour today)
>> where you (in my case at least) only found products by Commodore. There I
>> got my C64 (1984) and Amiga 500 (1989) from.
>
> :-D
>
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>>   Need to find a compatible tape cassette unit now. Junk
>>>>   store ? COULD cheat and record to a modern PC audio
>>>>   capture, but it's just not the same somehow  :-)
>>>
>>> Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try, make sure to
>>> not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the experiment, to find out.
>>
>> There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer Buffs"
>> <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard of before. They
>> sent program data via audio the audience record. When I found the show on
>> Youtube I tested that (extracted the audio at that position) and ran the
>> resulting WAV in an emulator fir that particular machine on my PC. It my
>> amazement it worked.
>
>
> Wow.
>
>> X'Post + F'up alt.folklore.computers
>
> I don't have that one subscribed here, so I will keep comp.os.linux.misc.
>
>>
>> [1] So unknown the IMDB page has only little information and a Wikipedia
>> page not even exists.
>>
>
>

On 9/22/21 7:40 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 00:59:46 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>
>> On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>
>>> X'Post + F'up alt.folklore.computers
>>
>> I don't have that one subscribed here, so I will keep
comp.os.linux.misc.
>
> If you are interested in vintage computers (as you are apparently) I
> highly recommend you do.
>
> Although many articles are about American history which might not be that
> interesting for us Europeans, there is for example another thread about
> Clive Sinclair, as well as other subjects like "British
> computers". Traffic is may be 10-20 articles a day with days of 0 in
> between.
>
> F'up poster (don't need to subscribe to "my group" ;-)
Now here's a good debate, did the Brits or Americans
build the first Real Computer ? :-)

*I* will pick Eniac.

The ENIGMA decoder unit was computer-LIKE, but it did
not share a lot of characteristics with how we now
define "computers".

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

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Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SevenOverSix)
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 by: SevenOverSix - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 04:49 UTC

On 9/22/21 6:59 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:13:12 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>
>>> On 22/09/2021 06.11, SevenOverSix wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   You could LOOK, but not TOUCH the mini-mainframes. Only
>>>>   the Holy Elite were allowed in the Computer Room. You
>>>>   could offer your sacrifice of punch-cards in the room
>>>>   next door of course ............
>>>
>>> Oh, we had our lab time on the terminals.
>>>
>>> However, the machine got so busy with all the students compiling and
>>> testing their Pascal assignments (specially in the last weeks), that the
>>> editor would take seconds to respond to a keypress. So we counted: five
>>> lines down, then 12 letters right, then three deletes, then replace
>>> "tye" with "the", then wait :-D
>>>
>>> It was then that I decided I needed my own computer and asked my father
>>> to get me one. An Amstrad PC 1512, the student association had an
>>> agreement with a vendor. A bit weird vendor... it was not a computer
>>> shop, but a warehouse of some industrial thing... There no home PC
>>> computer vendors by that time, they were starting.
>>
>> That was Spain at that time?
>
> More or less, dates are confusing. Well, the dates when the Amstrad
> started selling is known, must be on wikipedia.
>
>>
>> Similar in Germany. Dedicated computer shop chains only showed up later
>> in the 1980s and had their boom in the 1990s. Then most died.
>>
>> Then you had general department stores which added home computers by the
>> early 1980s.
>
> Yes indeed.
>
> And electronic component shops that besides oscilloscopes could sell you
> a computer. Ah, HAM stuff shops, too.
>
>> Then you had hypermarkets (like Walmart or Carrefour today)
>> where you (in my case at least) only found products by Commodore. There I
>> got my C64 (1984) and Amiga 500 (1989) from.
>
> :-D
>
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>>   Need to find a compatible tape cassette unit now. Junk
>>>>   store ? COULD cheat and record to a modern PC audio
>>>>   capture, but it's just not the same somehow  :-)
>>>
>>> Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try, make sure to
>>> not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the experiment, to find out.
>>
>> There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer Buffs"
>> <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard of before. They
>> sent program data via audio the audience record. When I found the show on
>> Youtube I tested that (extracted the audio at that position) and ran the
>> resulting WAV in an emulator fir that particular machine on my PC. It my
>> amazement it worked.
>
>
> Wow.
>
>> X'Post + F'up alt.folklore.computers
>
> I don't have that one subscribed here, so I will keep comp.os.linux.misc.
>
>>
>> [1] So unknown the IMDB page has only little information and a Wikipedia
>> page not even exists.

WAV is uncompressed - and thus the files are HUGE.

But for tape cassette storage we're basically talking
saving an acoustic modem signal at 110-300 baud max.
MP3 and others may compress, but I doubt they could
screw up THAT slow a signal. There was a LARGE tolerance
range figured-in too, given the characteristics of
mechanical tape recorders.

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

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From: admin@127.0.0.1 (Kerr-Mudd, John)
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Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
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 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:14 UTC

On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 00:59:46 +0200
"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
[]

> >
> > There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer Buffs"
> > <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard of before.
> > They sent program data via audio the audience record. When I found

I recall that happening; but wasn't it a BBC (Acorn) thing?

My googlfu is weak.

> > the show on Youtube I tested that (extracted the audio at that
> > position) and ran the resulting WAV in an emulator fir that
> > particular machine on my PC. It my amazement it worked.
>
>
> Wow.
>
> > X'Post + F'up alt.folklore.computers
>
> I don't have that one subscribed here, so I will keep
> comp.os.linux.misc.
>
Do it! Lot's of tales of yesteryear.

> >
> > [1] So unknown the IMDB page has only little information and a
> > Wikipedia page not even exists.
> >

> --
> Cheers,
> Carlos E.R.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 10:09 UTC

On 23/09/2021 06.49, SevenOverSix wrote:
> On 9/22/21 6:59 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:13:12 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 22/09/2021 06.11, SevenOverSix wrote:

....

>>> [...]
>>>
>>>>>    Need to find a compatible tape cassette unit now. Junk
>>>>>    store ? COULD cheat and record to a modern PC audio
>>>>>    capture, but it's just not the same somehow  :-)
>>>>
>>>> Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try, make sure to
>>>> not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the experiment, to find out.
>>>
>>> There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer Buffs"
>>> <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard of before. They
>>> sent program data via audio the audience record. When I found the
>>> show on
>>> Youtube I tested that (extracted the audio at that position) and ran the
>>> resulting WAV in an emulator fir that particular machine on my PC. It my
>>> amazement it worked.
>>
>>
>> Wow.
>>
>>> X'Post + F'up alt.folklore.computers
>>
>> I don't have that one subscribed here, so I will keep comp.os.linux.misc.
>>
>>>
>>> [1] So unknown the IMDB page has only little information and a Wikipedia
>>>      page not even exists.
>
>   WAV is uncompressed - and thus the files are HUGE.
>
>   But for tape cassette storage we're basically talking
>   saving an acoustic modem signal at 110-300 baud max.
>   MP3 and others may compress, but I doubt they could
>   screw up THAT slow a signal. There was a LARGE tolerance
>   range figured-in too, given the characteristics of
>   mechanical tape recorders.

Normal programs, maybe. Games with copy protection, I doubt it.

mp3 is lossy, information that the human ear does not detect is
destroyed. How much that will affect such a tape, I do not know. You
have to test it.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
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Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 10:13 UTC

On 23/09/2021 11.14, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 00:59:46 +0200
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> []
>
>>>
>>> There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer Buffs"
>>> <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard of before.
>>> They sent program data via audio the audience record. When I found
>
> I recall that happening; but wasn't it a BBC (Acorn) thing?
>
> My googlfu is weak.
>
>>> the show on Youtube I tested that (extracted the audio at that
>>> position) and ran the resulting WAV in an emulator fir that
>>> particular machine on my PC. It my amazement it worked.
>>
>>
>> Wow.
>>
>>> X'Post + F'up alt.folklore.computers
>>
>> I don't have that one subscribed here, so I will keep
>> comp.os.linux.misc.
>>
> Do it! Lot's of tales of yesteryear.

I have it at home, but not in my laptop, which is ancient and already
too loaded. I may try.

As a general rule, I don't like moving a thread from one group to
another, as people can be left out. Adding another group is ok.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 10:17 UTC

On 23/09/2021 06.37, SevenOverSix wrote:
> On 9/22/21 3:13 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 22/09/2021 06.11, SevenOverSix wrote:
>>> On 9/17/21 1:38 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>> On 17/09/2021 15.54, SevenOverSix wrote:
>>>>> It is reported that Sir Clive Sinclair has died at age 81.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sinclair is best known for his "ZX" (I think that's "Zed-X" for
>>>>> Brits) affordable computers. The rather crude ZX-80 (which could
>>>>> also be bought cheaper as a kit) was followed by the somewhat
>>>>> better ZX-81 and finally Sinclair Spectrum ... which was sort
>>>>> of a Euro answer to the Commodore-64. Large numbers of people
>>>>> initially got into computing because Sir Clive brought it into
>>>>> their price range.
>>>>>
>>>>> Somewhere near the bottom of The Heap I still have a ZX-81
>>>>> that probably still works. May have to excavate in honor
>>>>> of Sir Clive.
>>>>
>>>> Requiescat in pace.
>>>>
>>>> He deserves all the honours.
>>>>
>>>> The ZX Spectrum was the first computer I could touch and write programs
>>>> on it, although in my case it was borrowed, not owned.
>>>>
>>>> Previous to that I wrote programs on a Ti 57 and a TI-58C programmable
>>>> calculator, but not many consider those as computers.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, at college there were computers, but as to touch them... It was a
>>>> VAX. I don't remember if that was before or after the Spectrum.
>>>> Probably
>>>> after.
>>>
>>>    You could LOOK, but not TOUCH the mini-mainframes. Only
>>>    the Holy Elite were allowed in the Computer Room. You
>>>    could offer your sacrifice of punch-cards in the room
>>>    next door of course ............
>>
>> Oh, we had our lab time on the terminals.
>
>
>   I came in just a little before terminals.
>
>   There was still the high holy Computer Room and,
>   next door, the temple where you bowed and scraped
>   and then offered up your stack of punch cards  :-)
>
>   Minor bribes to the priests were not a bad idea.
>   Could make the diff between your stuff being done
>   by tomorrow, or next week.

I missed cards by one year on another college, I moved. They were
already obsolete, but the university was not well funded.

>> However, the machine got so busy with all the students compiling and
>> testing their Pascal assignments (specially in the last weeks), that the
>> editor would take seconds to respond to a keypress. So we counted: five
>> lines down, then 12 letters right, then three deletes, then replace
>> "tye" with "the", then wait :-D
>>
>> It was then that I decided I needed my own computer and asked my father
>> to get me one. An Amstrad PC 1512, the student association had an
>> agreement with a vendor. A bit weird vendor... it was not a computer
>> shop, but a warehouse of some industrial thing... There no home PC
>> computer vendors by that time, they were starting.
>>
>> Oh, before getting one I tried renting computer time at a place. You
>> paid by the hour. I think it was there where I met Turbo Pascal for the
>> first time.
>>
>> The next problem was transferring my assignment in text on a floppy to
>> the Vax, with help from a teacher. We used... kermit, perhaps. And then,
>> edit the assignment to change the peculiarities of turbo pascal to
>> standard pascal.
>>
>>>
>>>    Oh, FOUND my ZX-81 ... and it WORKS !!! I even found the
>>>    plug-in thermal PRINTER.
>>
>> Wow :-)
>>
>>
>>>    Need to find a compatible tape cassette unit now. Junk
>>>    store ? COULD cheat and record to a modern PC audio
>>>    capture, but it's just not the same somehow  :-)
>>
>> Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try, make sure to
>> not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the experiment, to find out.
>>
>> Old tape machines with cogs, not belts, will still work. It is the
>> rubber parts which spoil first. They (tape machines) are still made, saw
>> something  somewhere I don't remember.
>
>
>   An audio capture SHOULD work. The baud rate was SO slow
>   that even compression algos couldn't screw it up. Still,
>   I'd rather use an actual cassette deck For Originality.

It is not compression that matters, but that mp3 is lossy. Commercial
software exploited techniques on the fringe of what an audio tape
recorder could do.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

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From: peter_flass@yahoo.com (Peter Flass)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 07:32:04 -0700
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 by: Peter Flass - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 14:32 UTC

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:13:12 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>
>>> On 22/09/2021 06.11, SevenOverSix wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   You could LOOK, but not TOUCH the mini-mainframes. Only
>>>>   the Holy Elite were allowed in the Computer Room. You
>>>>   could offer your sacrifice of punch-cards in the room
>>>>   next door of course ............
>>>
>>> Oh, we had our lab time on the terminals.
>>>
>>> However, the machine got so busy with all the students compiling and
>>> testing their Pascal assignments (specially in the last weeks), that the
>>> editor would take seconds to respond to a keypress. So we counted: five
>>> lines down, then 12 letters right, then three deletes, then replace
>>> "tye" with "the", then wait :-D
>>>
>>> It was then that I decided I needed my own computer and asked my father
>>> to get me one. An Amstrad PC 1512, the student association had an
>>> agreement with a vendor. A bit weird vendor... it was not a computer
>>> shop, but a warehouse of some industrial thing... There no home PC
>>> computer vendors by that time, they were starting.
>>
>> That was Spain at that time?
>
> More or less, dates are confusing. Well, the dates when the Amstrad
> started selling is known, must be on wikipedia.
>
>>
>> Similar in Germany. Dedicated computer shop chains only showed up later
>> in the 1980s and had their boom in the 1990s. Then most died.
>>
>> Then you had general department stores which added home computers by the
>> early 1980s.
>
> Yes indeed.
>
> And electronic component shops that besides oscilloscopes could sell you
> a computer. Ah, HAM stuff shops, too.
>
>> Then you had hypermarkets (like Walmart or Carrefour today)
>> where you (in my case at least) only found products by Commodore. There I
>> got my C64 (1984) and Amiga 500 (1989) from.
>
> :-D
>
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>>   Need to find a compatible tape cassette unit now. Junk
>>>>   store ? COULD cheat and record to a modern PC audio
>>>>   capture, but it's just not the same somehow  :-)
>>>
>>> Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try, make sure to
>>> not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the experiment, to find out.
>>
>> There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer Buffs"
>> <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard of before. They
>> sent program data via audio the audience record. When I found the show on
>> Youtube I tested that (extracted the audio at that position) and ran the
>> resulting WAV in an emulator fir that particular machine on my PC. It my
>> amazement it worked.
>
>
> Wow.

Systems that saved programs on cassette used an audio format. Due to the
sloppiness of the media, I think the recording format had to be pretty
robust.
>
>> X'Post + F'up alt.folklore.computers
>
> I don't have that one subscribed here, so I will keep comp.os.linux.misc.
>
>>
>> [1] So unknown the IMDB page has only little information and a Wikipedia
>> page not even exists.
>>
>
>

--
Pete

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

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Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SevenOverSix)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 11:32:56 -0400
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 by: SevenOverSix - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:32 UTC

On 9/23/21 6:17 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 23/09/2021 06.37, SevenOverSix wrote:
>> On 9/22/21 3:13 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 22/09/2021 06.11, SevenOverSix wrote:
>>>> On 9/17/21 1:38 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>> On 17/09/2021 15.54, SevenOverSix wrote:
>>>>>> It is reported that Sir Clive Sinclair has died at age 81.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sinclair is best known for his "ZX" (I think that's "Zed-X" for
>>>>>> Brits) affordable computers. The rather crude ZX-80 (which could
>>>>>> also be bought cheaper as a kit) was followed by the somewhat
>>>>>> better ZX-81 and finally Sinclair Spectrum ... which was sort
>>>>>> of a Euro answer to the Commodore-64. Large numbers of people
>>>>>> initially got into computing because Sir Clive brought it into
>>>>>> their price range.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Somewhere near the bottom of The Heap I still have a ZX-81
>>>>>> that probably still works. May have to excavate in honor
>>>>>> of Sir Clive.
>>>>>
>>>>> Requiescat in pace.
>>>>>
>>>>> He deserves all the honours.
>>>>>
>>>>> The ZX Spectrum was the first computer I could touch and write programs
>>>>> on it, although in my case it was borrowed, not owned.
>>>>>
>>>>> Previous to that I wrote programs on a Ti 57 and a TI-58C programmable
>>>>> calculator, but not many consider those as computers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, at college there were computers, but as to touch them... It was a
>>>>> VAX. I don't remember if that was before or after the Spectrum.
>>>>> Probably
>>>>> after.
>>>>
>>>>    You could LOOK, but not TOUCH the mini-mainframes. Only
>>>>    the Holy Elite were allowed in the Computer Room. You
>>>>    could offer your sacrifice of punch-cards in the room
>>>>    next door of course ............
>>>
>>> Oh, we had our lab time on the terminals.
>>
>>
>>   I came in just a little before terminals.
>>
>>   There was still the high holy Computer Room and,
>>   next door, the temple where you bowed and scraped
>>   and then offered up your stack of punch cards  :-)
>>
>>   Minor bribes to the priests were not a bad idea.
>>   Could make the diff between your stuff being done
>>   by tomorrow, or next week.
>
> I missed cards by one year on another college, I moved. They were
> already obsolete, but the university was not well funded.
>
>
>
>>> However, the machine got so busy with all the students compiling and
>>> testing their Pascal assignments (specially in the last weeks), that the
>>> editor would take seconds to respond to a keypress. So we counted: five
>>> lines down, then 12 letters right, then three deletes, then replace
>>> "tye" with "the", then wait :-D
>>>
>>> It was then that I decided I needed my own computer and asked my father
>>> to get me one. An Amstrad PC 1512, the student association had an
>>> agreement with a vendor. A bit weird vendor... it was not a computer
>>> shop, but a warehouse of some industrial thing... There no home PC
>>> computer vendors by that time, they were starting.
>>>
>>> Oh, before getting one I tried renting computer time at a place. You
>>> paid by the hour. I think it was there where I met Turbo Pascal for the
>>> first time.
>>>
>>> The next problem was transferring my assignment in text on a floppy to
>>> the Vax, with help from a teacher. We used... kermit, perhaps. And then,
>>> edit the assignment to change the peculiarities of turbo pascal to
>>> standard pascal.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Oh, FOUND my ZX-81 ... and it WORKS !!! I even found the
>>>>    plug-in thermal PRINTER.
>>>
>>> Wow :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>>    Need to find a compatible tape cassette unit now. Junk
>>>>    store ? COULD cheat and record to a modern PC audio
>>>>    capture, but it's just not the same somehow  :-)
>>>
>>> Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try, make sure to
>>> not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the experiment, to find out.
>>>
>>> Old tape machines with cogs, not belts, will still work. It is the
>>> rubber parts which spoil first. They (tape machines) are still made, saw
>>> something  somewhere I don't remember.
>>
>>
>>   An audio capture SHOULD work. The baud rate was SO slow
>>   that even compression algos couldn't screw it up. Still,
>>   I'd rather use an actual cassette deck For Originality.
>
> It is not compression that matters, but that mp3 is lossy. Commercial
> software exploited techniques on the fringe of what an audio tape
> recorder could do.

MP3 isn't THAT awful - think of how much music is encoded MP3.
In this case it just has to nail a couple of mid-range audio
tones, the 'warble' of old-tyme acoustic modems.

I'll give it a try and see. Meanwhile, I think you can still
buy brand-new compact cassette recorders. There are still a few
market niches. I think even reel-2-reel tape has made something
of a come-back lately, just like vinyl. R2R, run at a decent
speed, was GOOD. Most commercial music up until near the 90s
was still made on magtape, sometimes physically cut-n-pasted
to achieve the final result.

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:33:59 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:33 UTC

On 23/09/2021 11:09, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> mp3 is lossy, information that the human ear does not detect is
> destroyed. How much that will affect such a tape, I do not know. You
> have to test it.
>
depends on encoding used. MP3 tends to squash the high frequencies which
represent most of the bandwith of an audo signal. i,e, half of the
20hz-20khz putative audio band is in the 10-20khz band which contains
very little information and is inaudible to many older people anyway.

The cassette tapes of that era had trouble getting anywhere near 10khz -
8Khz is a more likely cutoff. I doubt the data rate on an Uncle Clive
tape interface is even 1kbps

Should be fine on MP3

--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:39:39 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:39 UTC

On 23/09/2021 11:17, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 23/09/2021 06.37, SevenOverSix wrote:
>> On 9/22/21 3:13 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 22/09/2021 06.11, SevenOverSix wrote:
>>>> On 9/17/21 1:38 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>> On 17/09/2021 15.54, SevenOverSix wrote:
>>>>>> It is reported that Sir Clive Sinclair has died at age 81.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sinclair is best known for his "ZX" (I think that's "Zed-X" for
>>>>>> Brits) affordable computers. The rather crude ZX-80 (which could
>>>>>> also be bought cheaper as a kit) was followed by the somewhat
>>>>>> better ZX-81 and finally Sinclair Spectrum ... which was sort
>>>>>> of a Euro answer to the Commodore-64. Large numbers of people
>>>>>> initially got into computing because Sir Clive brought it into
>>>>>> their price range.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Somewhere near the bottom of The Heap I still have a ZX-81
>>>>>> that probably still works. May have to excavate in honor
>>>>>> of Sir Clive.
>>>>>
>>>>> Requiescat in pace.
>>>>>
>>>>> He deserves all the honours.
>>>>>
>>>>> The ZX Spectrum was the first computer I could touch and write programs
>>>>> on it, although in my case it was borrowed, not owned.
>>>>>
>>>>> Previous to that I wrote programs on a Ti 57 and a TI-58C programmable
>>>>> calculator, but not many consider those as computers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, at college there were computers, but as to touch them... It was a
>>>>> VAX. I don't remember if that was before or after the Spectrum.
>>>>> Probably
>>>>> after.
>>>>
>>>>    You could LOOK, but not TOUCH the mini-mainframes. Only
>>>>    the Holy Elite were allowed in the Computer Room. You
>>>>    could offer your sacrifice of punch-cards in the room
>>>>    next door of course ............
>>>
>>> Oh, we had our lab time on the terminals.
>>
>>
>>   I came in just a little before terminals.
>>
>>   There was still the high holy Computer Room and,
>>   next door, the temple where you bowed and scraped
>>   and then offered up your stack of punch cards  :-)
>>
>>   Minor bribes to the priests were not a bad idea.
>>   Could make the diff between your stuff being done
>>   by tomorrow, or next week.
>
> I missed cards by one year on another college, I moved. They were
> already obsolete, but the university was not well funded.
>
>
>
>>> However, the machine got so busy with all the students compiling and
>>> testing their Pascal assignments (specially in the last weeks), that the
>>> editor would take seconds to respond to a keypress. So we counted: five
>>> lines down, then 12 letters right, then three deletes, then replace
>>> "tye" with "the", then wait :-D
>>>
>>> It was then that I decided I needed my own computer and asked my father
>>> to get me one. An Amstrad PC 1512, the student association had an
>>> agreement with a vendor. A bit weird vendor... it was not a computer
>>> shop, but a warehouse of some industrial thing... There no home PC
>>> computer vendors by that time, they were starting.
>>>
>>> Oh, before getting one I tried renting computer time at a place. You
>>> paid by the hour. I think it was there where I met Turbo Pascal for the
>>> first time.
>>>
>>> The next problem was transferring my assignment in text on a floppy to
>>> the Vax, with help from a teacher. We used... kermit, perhaps. And then,
>>> edit the assignment to change the peculiarities of turbo pascal to
>>> standard pascal.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Oh, FOUND my ZX-81 ... and it WORKS !!! I even found the
>>>>    plug-in thermal PRINTER.
>>>
>>> Wow :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>>    Need to find a compatible tape cassette unit now. Junk
>>>>    store ? COULD cheat and record to a modern PC audio
>>>>    capture, but it's just not the same somehow  :-)
>>>
>>> Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try, make sure to
>>> not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the experiment, to find out.
>>>
>>> Old tape machines with cogs, not belts, will still work. It is the
>>> rubber parts which spoil first. They (tape machines) are still made, saw
>>> something  somewhere I don't remember.
>>
>>
>>   An audio capture SHOULD work. The baud rate was SO slow
>>   that even compression algos couldn't screw it up. Still,
>>   I'd rather use an actual cassette deck For Originality.
>
> It is not compression that matters, but that mp3 is lossy. Commercial
> software exploited techniques on the fringe of what an audio tape
> recorder could do.
>
>
But a cassette tape recorder was unbelievably bad.. Even using a single
make of tape, I had problems setting up the acknowledged 'best' studio
cassette recorder to get channel balance above 3 Khz.

The cassettes were designed for Dictaphones. And Sinclair users were all
cheapskates so wouldn't have anything better than a cheap recorder.

MP3 is probably better than most turntables and vinyl disks.Only full
end to end lossless digital/CDs beats it.

--
“Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

– Ludwig von Mises

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

<sii7ea$cse$1@dont-email.me>

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From: rich@example.invalid (Rich)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:45:14 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Rich - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:45 UTC

In comp.os.linux.misc Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:13:12 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>> Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try, make
>>>> sure to not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the
>>>> experiment, to find out.
>>>
>>> There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer Buffs"
>>> <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard of before.
>>> They sent program data via audio the audience record. When I found
>>> the show on Youtube I tested that (extracted the audio at that
>>> position) and ran the resulting WAV in an emulator fir that
>>> particular machine on my PC. It my amazement it worked.
>>
>>
>> Wow.
>
> Systems that saved programs on cassette used an audio format. Due to
> the sloppiness of the media, I think the recording format had to be
> pretty robust.

At least in the case of the Atari 400/800 cassette format it was a very
simple format:

Format details are here: https://www.atariarchives.org/dere/chaptC.php

132 byte records, two start bytes for 'speed detection', a control
byte, 128 data bytes, and a single checksum byte (and the checksum is
just a simple endaround carry sum of the 131 other bytes in the record).

The physical byte encoding on the tape was frequency shift keying, with
5327 Hz for a mark and 3995 Hz for a space.

So it at least it had a simple checksum, but the packet format was
hardly "robust". Workable, but memory of those days was that the
cassette was quite flakey as a data storage format, sometimes it
worked, sometimes it did not. And when it did not rereading things all
over again sometimes magically had them work.

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

<sii83s$n46$1@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:56:43 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:56 UTC

On 23/09/2021 16:32, SevenOverSix wrote:
> MP3 isn't THAT awful - think of how much music is encoded MP3.
>   In this case it just has to nail a couple of mid-range audio
>   tones, the 'warble' of old-tyme acoustic modems.
>
>   I'll give it a try and see. Meanwhile, I think you can still
>   buy brand-new compact cassette recorders. There are still a few
>   market niches.

Ive got a barely used ttwin deck hifi cassette recorder going back to
the 1980s that hasn't been used in at least 30 years...heads in great
condition. Only the rubber bands might need replacing :-)

Offers on a postcard.,..

I think even reel-2-reel tape has made something
>   of a come-back lately, just like vinyl. R2R, run at a decent
>   speed, was GOOD. Most commercial music up until near the 90s
>   was still made on magtape, sometimes physically cut-n-pasted
>   to achieve the final result.

15 or 30 ips on 1/2" tape was as good as you need.

1 15/16" ips and 1/8" tape - not so much...

Vinyl has made a comeback within the touchy feely ArtStudent brigade who
have no idea what hi fidelity actually meant.

Years ago I bought a vinyl copy of Electric Ladyland. I was always
unhappy about distortion on one track. Eventually I bought the CD. To
my surprise, the distortion was on the master tape, and not the needle
chattering in the groove.

A good CD will give you 0-19khz with 90dB signal to noise and no actual
distortion beyond digitisation noise.

You would be lucky to do better than 65dB signal to noise on vinyl and
0.5% distortion.

Good analogue tape at 15ips can net you something up around 80dB or
better. Which is getting near better than the microphones. Of course
digital tape first and then digital disk recording has made the whole
recording process limited only by the microphones and their pre-amps

Sadly as the recording quality has improved immeasurably, the recorded
material and sound engineer quality has deteriorated to utter drivel

Many of the best classical orchestral recordings were done with a simple
crossed pair of stereo mics. Many hits of the 50s and 60s were done on 4
or 8 track recorders

128 track digitally mastered 'baby shark' just doesn't cut it. :-)

--
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow witted
man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest
thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly
persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid
before him."

- Leo Tolstoy

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

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From: rich@example.invalid (Rich)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:26:22 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Rich - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:26 UTC

SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> wrote:
> On 9/23/21 6:17 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> It is not compression that matters, but that mp3 is lossy.
>> Commercial software exploited techniques on the fringe of what an
>> audio tape recorder could do.
>
> MP3 isn't THAT awful - think of how much music is encoded MP3. In
> this case it just has to nail a couple of mid-range audio tones,
> the 'warble' of old-tyme acoustic modems.

In case MP3 does something bad with the frequency bands the interface
relies upon, there is always Flac https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flac
which is lossless.

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

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From: cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
References: <POCdnc09ErazA9n8nZ2dnUU7-aHNnZ2d@earthlink.com>
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 by: Charlie Gibbs - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:31 UTC

On 2021-09-23, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 23/09/2021 16:32, SevenOverSix wrote:
>
>> MP3 isn't THAT awful - think of how much music is encoded MP3.
>>   In this case it just has to nail a couple of mid-range audio
>>   tones, the 'warble' of old-tyme acoustic modems.
>>
>>   I'll give it a try and see. Meanwhile, I think you can still
>>   buy brand-new compact cassette recorders. There are still a few
>>   market niches.
>
> Ive got a barely used ttwin deck hifi cassette recorder going back to
> the 1980s that hasn't been used in at least 30 years...heads in great
> condition. Only the rubber bands might need replacing :-)
>
> Offers on a postcard.,..
>
> I think even reel-2-reel tape has made something
>>   of a come-back lately, just like vinyl. R2R, run at a decent
>>   speed, was GOOD. Most commercial music up until near the 90s
>>   was still made on magtape, sometimes physically cut-n-pasted
>>   to achieve the final result.
>
> 15 or 30 ips on 1/2" tape was as good as you need.
>
> 1 15/16" ips and 1/8" tape - not so much...

1 7/8 ips, actually. But even a consumer-grade 1/4-inch 4-track
reel-to-reel deck running at 7 1/2 ips has an inherent 9dB advantage
in signal-to-noise ratio over a cassette - not to mention much better
high-frequency response. That's why I stuck with reel-to-reel when
the world went to cassettes.

> Vinyl has made a comeback within the touchy feely ArtStudent brigade
> who have no idea what hi fidelity actually meant.

If it rumbles it must be good, right? At least that's the message
I get from that guy in the boom car somewhere within 100 yards of me
in a traffic jam.

> Years ago I bought a vinyl copy of Electric Ladyland. I was always
> unhappy about distortion on one track. Eventually I bought the CD. To
> my surprise, the distortion was on the master tape, and not the needle
> chattering in the groove.

Wow.

> A good CD will give you 0-19khz with 90dB signal to noise and no actual
> distortion beyond digitisation noise.
>
> You would be lucky to do better than 65dB signal to noise on vinyl and
> 0.5% distortion.
>
> Good analogue tape at 15ips can net you something up around 80dB or
> better. Which is getting near better than the microphones. Of course
> digital tape first and then digital disk recording has made the whole
> recording process limited only by the microphones and their pre-amps
>
> Sadly as the recording quality has improved immeasurably, the recorded
> material and sound engineer quality has deteriorated to utter drivel
>
> Many of the best classical orchestral recordings were done with a simple
> crossed pair of stereo mics. Many hits of the 50s and 60s were done on 4
> or 8 track recorders
>
> 128 track digitally mastered 'baby shark' just doesn't cut it. :-)

I've read that CDs - including remixes of good vinyl recordings -
are often compressed down to something like a 12dB dynamic range.

I got my hands on an MP3 of a wonderful Joni Mitchell track that
I cherish on vinyl. It sounded so horrible that I deleted it -
and I don't delete _anything_.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

That's not to say that there weren't variations even on vinyl.
The labels in the WEA triumvirate (Warner/Elektra/Atlantic)
were arranged in decreasing order of recording quality.
If you turned up the volume on a Warner recording, the sound
would come out of the speakers and envelop you. If you turned
up the volume on an Atlantic recording, it just got loud.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | It can be beautiful -
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lily Tomlin

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

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From: cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
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 by: Charlie Gibbs - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:31 UTC

On 2021-09-23, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:

> In comp.os.linux.misc Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:13:12 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try,
>>>>> make sure to not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the
>>>>> experiment, to find out.
>>>>
>>>> There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer Buffs"
>>>> <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard of before.
>>>> They sent program data via audio the audience record. When I found
>>>> the show on Youtube I tested that (extracted the audio at that
>>>> position) and ran the resulting WAV in an emulator fir that
>>>> particular machine on my PC. It my amazement it worked.
>>>
>>> Wow.
>>
>> Systems that saved programs on cassette used an audio format. Due to
>> the sloppiness of the media, I think the recording format had to be
>> pretty robust.
>
> At least in the case of the Atari 400/800 cassette format it was a very
> simple format:
>
> Format details are here: https://www.atariarchives.org/dere/chaptC.php
>
> 132 byte records, two start bytes for 'speed detection', a control
> byte, 128 data bytes, and a single checksum byte (and the checksum is
> just a simple endaround carry sum of the 131 other bytes in the record).
>
> The physical byte encoding on the tape was frequency shift keying, with
> 5327 Hz for a mark and 3995 Hz for a space.
>
> So it at least it had a simple checksum, but the packet format was
> hardly "robust". Workable, but memory of those days was that the
> cassette was quite flakey as a data storage format, sometimes it
> worked, sometimes it did not. And when it did not rereading things all
> over again sometimes magically had them work.

Ah yes, I remember the good old days with my IMSAI. I didn't have
cassette decks, but I had a couple of reel-to-reel decks, so I broke
into their motor circuits and built a control box that would use the
cassette motor control circuits to activate relays to switch 110-volt
motor power on and off.

I didn't have a real cassette interface in the beginning, but I did
have a Bell 202 modem (1200 bps async) that I picked up somewhere.
I recorded its output to tape and played it back in - it worked well
enough, although when I finally scraped up the bucks for a CUTS board
it was more reliable (but not much faster).

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | It can be beautiful -
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lily Tomlin

Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer

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From: *@eli.users.panix.com (Eli the Bearded)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 19:06:33 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Some absurd concept
Message-ID: <eli$2109231506@qaz.wtf>
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 by: Eli the Bearded - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 19:06 UTC

In comp.os.linux.misc, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> 1 7/8 ips, actually. But even a consumer-grade 1/4-inch 4-track
> reel-to-reel deck running at 7 1/2 ips has an inherent 9dB advantage
> in signal-to-noise ratio over a cassette - not to mention much better
> high-frequency response. That's why I stuck with reel-to-reel when
> the world went to cassettes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NT_(cassette)

Tiny mag tape can work, but you have to be careful.

> I've read that CDs - including remixes of good vinyl recordings -
> are often compressed down to something like a 12dB dynamic range.

People who know more than me about audio have explained that as "a
make the CDs sound 'good' on car stereos" effort. In better
environments, you can hear how much worse it is, but competing with the
engine sounds and traffic sounds, the compressed audio seems better.

The proper fix would have been better car stereos, but...

> I got my hands on an MP3 of a wonderful Joni Mitchell track that
> I cherish on vinyl. It sounded so horrible that I deleted it -
> and I don't delete _anything_.

Vinyl also has the quirk that outer edge tracks have better quality than
center tracks. Most other media doesn't suffer that restriction.

Elijah
------
most other media doesn't let you drill an off-center hole for fun

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