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computers / comp.os.linux.misc / Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

SubjectAuthor
* Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Ant
+- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Roger Blake
+- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Bobbie Sellers
+* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Joerg Lorenz
| `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|  `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Joerg Lorenz
|   `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|    `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Joerg Lorenz
|     +- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|     +- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Bobbie Sellers
|     `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Charlie Gibbs
+* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
|`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Marc Haber
| `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
|  `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Marc Haber
|   +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Andreas Kohlbach
|   |`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
|   | |`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Carlos E. R.
|   | | `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
|   | |  `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Marc Haber
|   | |   +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Carlos E. R.
|   | |   |`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
|   | |   | +- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Marc Haber
|   | |   | +- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Joerg Lorenz
|   | |   | `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Bobbie Sellers
|   | |   |  +* OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Rinaldi
|   | |   |  |+- Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. oldBobbie Sellers
|   | |   |  |+- Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. oldBobbie Sellers
|   | |   |  |`* Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. oldBobbie Sellers
|   | |   |  | +- Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. oldThe Natural Philosopher
|   | |   |  | `* Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. oldSixOverFive
|   | |   |  |  `* Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. oldJoerg Lorenz
|   | |   |  |   `* Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Andreas Kohlbach
|   | |   |  |    `- Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. oldSixOverFive
|   | |   |  `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |   +- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Andreas Kohlbach
|   | |   `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
|   | |    +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Richard Kettlewell
|   | |    |`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
|   | |    | `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Richard Kettlewell
|   | |    |  `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |    |   +- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Richard Kettlewell
|   | |    |   `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Dan Espen
|   | |    +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Carlos E. R.
|   | |    |`- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Joerg Lorenz
|   | |    `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Stéphane CARPENTIER
|   | |     `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
|   | |      |+- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Carlos E. R.
|   | |      |+- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      |`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      | `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SevenOverSix
|   | |      |  `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      |   `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SevenOverSix
|   | |      |    +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      |    |`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SevenOverSix
|   | |      |    | `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      |    |  `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SevenOverSix
|   | |      |    `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Richard Kettlewell
|   | |      |     +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      |     |+* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Richard Kettlewell
|   | |      |     ||`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      |     || `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Richard Kettlewell
|   | |      |     |`- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Tauno Voipio
|   | |      |     +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SevenOverSix
|   | |      |     |+* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      |     ||`- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SevenOverSix
|   | |      |     |`- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Richard Kettlewell
|   | |      |     `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SevenOverSix
|   | |      |      +- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      |      `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Richard Kettlewell
|   | |      |       `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SevenOverSix
|   | |      |        +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Richard Kettlewell
|   | |      |        |`- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SevenOverSix
|   | |      |        `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Tauno Voipio
|   | |       `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |        +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Tauno Voipio
|   | |        |`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |        | `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SevenOverSix
|   | |        `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Richard Kettlewell
|   | |         `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Marc Haber
|   |  `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
|    +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Marc Haber
|    |`- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
|    `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Stéphane CARPENTIER
|     `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
+* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Marc Haber
|`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
| +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
| |`- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
| `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Marc Haber
|  `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Carlos E. R.
|    `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Stéphane CARPENTIER
+* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Andreas Kohlbach
|`- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?TJ

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Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

<sh4tmf$922$2@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 12:22:55 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Mon, 6 Sep 2021 11:22 UTC

On 06/09/2021 11:39, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>> On 06/09/2021 09:08, Tauno Voipio wrote:
>>> It is a method called 'tail-ending' in compilers. Any reasonably recent
>>> version of the GNU GCC is able to do it without programmer assistance,
>>> except selecting high enough optimization levele when compiling.
>
> As far as I can see from a superficial test, gcc 10.2.1 will perform
> this optimization within a function but not across multiple functions.
> The same goes for Clang 11.0.1.
>
>> I am sure that optimizing for size would use something like that. It
>> is fractionally *slower*
>
> On a simple CPU, yes.
>
> On a modern general-purpose CPU I’d expect that it would often lead to a
> net performance improvement due to improved cache usage, outside of
> uninteresting cases where the shared tail only executes once.
>
That's an interesting point: I think you are spot on. I wasn't thinking
about caches at all.

--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

<iuSdnXwbb64-Y6v8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@earthlink.com>

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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 00:54:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SevenOverSix)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 01:54:42 -0400
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 by: SevenOverSix - Tue, 7 Sep 2021 05:54 UTC

On 9/6/21 3:45 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 06/09/2021 00:34, SixOverFive wrote:
>> On 9/5/21 4:35 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Faced with lack of space in a 2K EPROM, I replaced all instances of
>>> POP AX
>>> POP BX
>>> POP CX
>>> POP DX
>>> RET
>>>
>>> with
>>> JMP STDEXIT
>>>
>>>
>>> STDEXIT:
>>> POP AX
>>> POP BX
>>> POP CX
>>> POP DX
>>> RET
>>>
>>> and gained the 64 bytes of PROM space I needed to include an extended
>>> BIOS.
>>
>>    So long as there aren't multiple threads going on you CAN
>>    just clean up in one spot. If the eeprom was 2k this was
>>    probably WAY before multithreading. The single-location
>>    thing might also be vulnerable to some race conditions.
>>    I'd worry if there were interrupt routines happening too.
>
> That code is thread proof

Nope. It's context-dependent. WHOSE stack
are you popping from ?

Modern languages essentially have "stack frames", a
de-facto stack for every function/subroutine. The
old TI-9900 chips actually kinda rigged this in
hardware - each user had a 64k 'universe' of
their own.

I would not even trust that code on a PIC or Arduino ...
which, though simple, MIGHT have an ISR running at the
instant. Sometimes functions really SHOULD clean up
their own messes and not try to leave it to others.

> it does not alter memory, only the state of the CPU
>
> Of course there were interrupts. This was a PC BIOS.

I'm used to micro-controllers. They are far more
clear than a PC - no room or mechanism to hide
mistakes. My last "big" project was for Arduino/Atmel,
field dataloggers, and DID use several ISRs. The Stack
was NOT The Stack, but "Stacks". Had to deal with
everything within its own "context".

No, you do NOT use PIs for dataloggers, they are
fantastic power-hogs. Atmel/PIC you can tweak to
use micro-power while waiting for the next
sample interval or event.

Oh yea, general advice, ALWAYS use the SEEED LiPo
solar-charger/power-supply ... the AdaFruit ones
will pass on the full voltage of your solar to the
board - blowing it up. Also, those flat-pack
LiPo batteries they sell, had ONE detonate on
my desk .. barely TOUCHED it and it went off, and
it had been six months since it'd been charged.
Burned me slightly and took an hour and big fans
to clear out the nasty smoke. Nice char-mark on
the desk too. My remaining batteries are in a
STEEL file-card box now, with ceramic fiber
stuff in the bottom. I hate Li polymer batteries.
The damned things should be banned. LiFePO are
safe, but more expensive.

Oh ... and ONE fix I did was to put a low-dropout
linear voltage regulator on the solar. Started
with 3-watt Zeners - but they got HOT HOT HOT.

If you are going to design such field stuff, DO
buy one of the USB "oscilloscopes". I had a weird
problem - and it turned out to be a sub-microsecond
voltage drop when a device kicked in - barely showed
up in the scope output. The device was on the wrong
side of a load-limiting resistor and sucked-down
the voltage on a lot of other stuff when it started,
including some interrupt sources.

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 01:20:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SevenOverSix)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 02:20:45 -0400
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 by: SevenOverSix - Tue, 7 Sep 2021 06:20 UTC

On 9/6/21 7:21 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 06/09/2021 10:38, Tauno Voipio wrote:
>> In practice the speed difference in not
>> noticeable.
> That depends entirely on what you are doing!

And THAT "depends".

Debian is basically "state of the art", it's
a damned good distro - the mother of SO many
others. You can enlarge, or shrink, it over
a VERY wide range. Slitaz/Tiny is probably the
lower end, a big fat KDE environment being
the opposite end.

And you CAN skip all GUIs too ... though that
is pretty retro.

The trick is to scale your environment to the
hardware/task at hand.

If you have a 386 with literally megabytes of
memory - go SMALL, Very Very small. An old
Packard-Bell intended for Win95/98 comes to
mind. 4mb of RAM was considered "overkill" :-)

Did deal with a guy running an old payroll app
on Win95 ... 4mb really DID speed it up.

Oh, the biz owner was nefarious for going to
GARAGE SALES and buying old old PCs. It was
my job to make them work with much newer and
more bulky software. Oh well, he PAID. He'd
call me, sometimes late at night ... but I
was younger then.

And you wonder why my "systems philosophy" is
so weird/brutal. THIS is the kind of crap I've
had to deal with :-)

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

<sh759c$592$1@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 08:44:44 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Tue, 7 Sep 2021 07:44 UTC

On 07/09/2021 06:54, SevenOverSix wrote:
> On 9/6/21 3:45 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 06/09/2021 00:34, SixOverFive wrote:
>>> On 9/5/21 4:35 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Faced with lack of space in a 2K EPROM, I replaced all instances of
>>>> POP AX
>>>> POP BX
>>>> POP CX
>>>> POP DX
>>>> RET
>>>>
>>>> with
>>>> JMP STDEXIT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> STDEXIT:
>>>> POP AX
>>>> POP BX
>>>> POP CX
>>>> POP DX
>>>> RET
>>>>
>>>> and gained the 64 bytes of PROM space I needed to include an
>>>> extended BIOS.
>>>
>>>    So long as there aren't multiple threads going on you CAN
>>>    just clean up in one spot. If the eeprom was 2k this was
>>>    probably WAY before multithreading. The single-location
>>>    thing might also be vulnerable to some race conditions.
>>>    I'd worry if there were interrupt routines happening too.
>>
>> That code is thread proof
>
>   Nope. It's context-dependent. WHOSE stack
>   are you popping from ?
>
YOUR stack in THIS thread. Of course you do stack context switches in
multithreading - but this doesn't affect code.

I don't think you understand stack frames properly. They are always
private to the thread. That's the whole point, That's how you do
multitasking

unsafe code is that which modifies memory or accesses memory which is
NOT private to a thread.

>   Modern languages essentially have "stack frames", a
>   de-facto stack for every function/subroutine. The
>   old TI-9900 chips actually kinda rigged this in
>   hardware - each user had a 64k 'universe' of
>   their own.
>
>   I would not even trust that code on a PIC or Arduino ...
>   which, though simple, MIGHT have an ISR running at the
>   instant. Sometimes functions really SHOULD clean up
>   their own messes and not try to leave it to others.
>

I think you don not really undesrstand how interrupts work or what that
code actually doe

>> it does not alter memory, only the state of the CPU
>>
>> Of course there were interrupts. This was a PC BIOS.
>
>   I'm used to micro-controllers. They are far more
>   clear than a PC - no room or mechanism to hide
>   mistakes. My last "big" project was for Arduino/Atmel,
>   field dataloggers, and DID use several ISRs. The Stack
>   was NOT The Stack, but "Stacks". Had to deal with
>   everything within its own "context".
>
Of course. I was doing what you are doing 30 years ago

Give me *some* credit for knowing how to code a multitasker and in
interrupt service routine

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
-- Yogi Berra

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SevenOverSix)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 01:36:00 -0400
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 by: SevenOverSix - Wed, 8 Sep 2021 05:36 UTC

On 9/7/21 3:44 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 07/09/2021 06:54, SevenOverSix wrote:
>> On 9/6/21 3:45 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 06/09/2021 00:34, SixOverFive wrote:
>>>> On 9/5/21 4:35 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Faced with lack of space in a 2K EPROM, I replaced all instances of
>>>>> POP AX
>>>>> POP BX
>>>>> POP CX
>>>>> POP DX
>>>>> RET
>>>>>
>>>>> with
>>>>> JMP STDEXIT
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> STDEXIT:
>>>>> POP AX
>>>>> POP BX
>>>>> POP CX
>>>>> POP DX
>>>>> RET
>>>>>
>>>>> and gained the 64 bytes of PROM space I needed to include an
>>>>> extended BIOS.
>>>>
>>>>    So long as there aren't multiple threads going on you CAN
>>>>    just clean up in one spot. If the eeprom was 2k this was
>>>>    probably WAY before multithreading. The single-location
>>>>    thing might also be vulnerable to some race conditions.
>>>>    I'd worry if there were interrupt routines happening too.
>>>
>>> That code is thread proof
>>
>>    Nope. It's context-dependent. WHOSE stack
>>    are you popping from ?
>>
> YOUR stack in THIS thread. Of course you do stack context switches in
> multithreading - but this doesn't affect code.
>
> I don't think you understand stack frames properly. They are always
> private to the thread. That's the whole point, That's how you do
> multitasking
>
> unsafe code is that which modifies memory or accesses memory which is
> NOT private to a thread.
>
>
>
>>    Modern languages essentially have "stack frames", a
>>    de-facto stack for every function/subroutine. The
>>    old TI-9900 chips actually kinda rigged this in
>>    hardware - each user had a 64k 'universe' of
>>    their own.
>>
>>    I would not even trust that code on a PIC or Arduino ...
>>    which, though simple, MIGHT have an ISR running at the
>>    instant. Sometimes functions really SHOULD clean up
>>    their own messes and not try to leave it to others.
>>
>
> I think you don not really undesrstand how interrupts work or what that
> code actually doe

Oh PLEASE .......

I was using ISRs while the common advice was
to poll inputs .......

>>> it does not alter memory, only the state of the CPU
>>>
>>> Of course there were interrupts. This was a PC BIOS.
>>
>>    I'm used to micro-controllers. They are far more
>>    clear than a PC - no room or mechanism to hide
>>    mistakes. My last "big" project was for Arduino/Atmel,
>>    field dataloggers, and DID use several ISRs. The Stack
>>    was NOT The Stack, but "Stacks". Had to deal with
>>    everything within its own "context".
>>
> Of course. I was doing what you are doing 30 years ago

I was doing it 30+ years ago too, 8051s mostly.

My, how time flies ....

I liked the 8051 ... you can still buy "compatibles"
using essentially the same instruction set though.
There are modern 8/16 solutions though that are better.
Pretty good for 8-bit, less primitive than the PICs
RISC instructions. There was a company that sold a
"fat"-looking '51 - Systronics ? - it was "fat" because
there was a battery built into the chip package which
kept static RAM alive. Why bother with eproms ? Saved
several extra parts and BS - the experience was a lot
like the more modern chips with flash built in. They
even had a BASIC compiler while most were stuck doing
it all in assembler.

After the '51s there were Rabbit-2000s ... GREAT,
similar to Arduino boards. There were R3/4/5000s
too - but they switched to a wiring pitch too fine
for normal humans to hand-solder - so that was the
end of them. Still sometimes do one-off PIC projects,
but using the through-hole 0.1" DIP versions.

> Give me *some* credit for knowing how to code a multitasker and in
> interrupt service routine

Oh, I'll give due credit. Your code IS a good byte-saver.
However I've always had a good sense of how bits of code
can go wrong. You code is perfectly good - but within a
certain context/environment. As I said, WHICH stack are
you popping from ? Old uController programs usually had
THE Stack - but don't always COUNT on that. If you are
in a subroutine (we'll assume its params/vars were pushed
up on top of THE Stack) if you drop to some POP POPS you
are removing THAT subs data, NOT that of the main pgm loop.
Depending, that MIGHT be OK ... or NOT. ISRs make it
even worse.

My advice was to always "waste" the space - let each
sub/isr clean up its own mess. However if you were
REALLY stuck for memory, well, write the code so
you could get away with the "imperfect" solution
though such code could be rather "imperfect" itself.

I remember doing something for an ag-product flinger
where you had to match the vehicle speed to the
output rate (this was pre-GPS). Shaft sensors,
opto-isolators, e-noise suppressors and such. PID
is *such* a pain, so I had it remember the LAST good
solution. When activated it jumped to THAT value and
THEN fine-tuned it with proportional+fuzzy and, once
stable, it'd record that as the new ideal value. Just
a cheap cheap table. Why the hell should the thing have
to figure-out the solution from scratch every time -
using lots of floating-point or big int math ? Using
that approach you could do the fine-tuning with ints
or even 8-bit.

Oh, optos can be GREAT. E-noise, ignition systems
mostly, produce VOLTAGE spikes - but there's no
CURRENT to them. Optos need CURRENT to light up.
So, they are a good way to suppress such noise.
FETs would just drown, having hyper-high input
impedance which would take such spikes seriously.
Sometimes it pays to "waste" a little current too.
BiPolar CAN be better than FETs. The real world
is just MESSY.

So give ME some credit too - had to Make Do, Squeeze
It In, in back in the Bad Old Days as well :-)

I wish there'd been pretty color-graphic displays
suitable for showing the state of things, but there
were no such things (at least affordable) back in
the day. There were 7-segment LEDs though ...
driving those was why I got into PICs. Send it
some numbers, or an analog value ... integrate
pulses in a cap/resistor combo, that'll give you
an analog value. Not "perfect", but "good enough".

Oh well, I've gone on too long again ......

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

<sh9m8c$s73$4@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 07:46:36 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 8 Sep 2021 06:46 UTC

On 08/09/2021 06:36, SevenOverSix wrote:
> Oh, I'll give due credit. Your code IS a good byte-saver.
>   However I've always had a good sense of how bits of code
>   can go wrong. You code is perfectly good - but within a
>   certain context/environment. As I said, WHICH stack are
>   you popping from ?
I answered that:
The stack that is owned by the current thread

The fact that you cannot understand why that makes your comment
irrelevant worries me greatly. Do you work for Boeing?

--
“The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

- Bertrand Russell

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

<87o8938q6k.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>

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From: invalid@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 08:46:59 +0100
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Wed, 8 Sep 2021 07:46 UTC

SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> writes:
> On 9/7/21 3:44 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> Give me *some* credit for knowing how to code a multitasker and in
>> interrupt service routine
>
> Oh, I'll give due credit. Your code IS a good byte-saver.
> However I've always had a good sense of how bits of code
> can go wrong. You code is perfectly good - but within a
> certain context/environment. As I said, WHICH stack are
> you popping from ?

TNP’s space optimization doesn’t affect the meaning of the code. POP
uses the same SP regardless of where the instruction is located. You are
talking nonsense.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 10:57:31 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 8 Sep 2021 09:57 UTC

On 08/09/2021 08:46, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> writes:
>> On 9/7/21 3:44 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> Give me *some* credit for knowing how to code a multitasker and in
>>> interrupt service routine
>>
>> Oh, I'll give due credit. Your code IS a good byte-saver.
>> However I've always had a good sense of how bits of code
>> can go wrong. You code is perfectly good - but within a
>> certain context/environment. As I said, WHICH stack are
>> you popping from ?
>
> TNP’s space optimization doesn’t affect the meaning of the code. POP
> uses the same SP regardless of where the instruction is located. You are
> talking nonsense.
>
Thanks Richard.

On the matter of caching, It's been bothering me...surely even if the
instruction set is cached, a JMP instruction still takes time, or has
the processor simply 'cut and pasted' the instruction block into the
pipeline and elided the JMP altogether?

--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: invalid@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 12:12:40 +0100
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Wed, 8 Sep 2021 11:12 UTC

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
> On 08/09/2021 08:46, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> writes:
>>> On 9/7/21 3:44 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> Give me *some* credit for knowing how to code a multitasker and in
>>>> interrupt service routine
>>>
>>> Oh, I'll give due credit. Your code IS a good byte-saver.
>>> However I've always had a good sense of how bits of code
>>> can go wrong. You code is perfectly good - but within a
>>> certain context/environment. As I said, WHICH stack are
>>> you popping from ?
>>
>> TNP’s space optimization doesn’t affect the meaning of the code. POP
>> uses the same SP regardless of where the instruction is located. You are
>> talking nonsense.
>>
> Thanks Richard.
>
> On the matter of caching, It's been bothering me...surely even if the
> instruction set is cached, a JMP instruction still takes time, or has
> the processor simply 'cut and pasted' the instruction block into the
> pipeline and elided the JMP altogether?

Suppose you have many consecutive functions with the common tail, and
you execute all of them once.

For each of those functions, the object code of the function must be
loaded from main memory into cache. The number of loads from main memory
is proportional to the sum of the sizes of the functions.

Now suppose all but one of the functions have that tail replaced by a
JMP to the first function’s version.

They do indeed incur a small extra cost for the JMP, but after the first
of them has executed, and _if_ the reduced size means you’ve reduced the
total amount of code that must be read, the number of loads from main
memory is reduced.

Loads from main memory are incredibly slow compared to executing single
instructions - think 10x or 100x as long. The extra cost of the JMP is
lost in the noise.

This is a very simple model; in reality you won’t notice the
sub-microsecond savings from eliminating a handful of memory reads. The
real benefit comes when the space optimization squeezes the working set
of a long-running program down from a bit bigger than the total cache
size to a bit smaller.

The effect scales: if you can reduce the number of memory pages your
program takes, you reduce the number of disk reads, and those are
even slower.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid (Tauno Voipio)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 14:17:23 +0300
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 by: Tauno Voipio - Wed, 8 Sep 2021 11:17 UTC

On 8.9.21 12.57, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 08/09/2021 08:46, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> writes:
>>> On 9/7/21 3:44 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> Give me *some* credit for knowing how to code a multitasker and in
>>>> interrupt service routine
>>>
>>>    Oh, I'll give due credit. Your code IS a good byte-saver.
>>>    However I've always had a good sense of how bits of code
>>>    can go wrong. You code is perfectly good - but within a
>>>    certain context/environment. As I said, WHICH stack are
>>>    you popping from ?
>>
>> TNP’s space optimization doesn’t affect the meaning of the code. POP
>> uses the same SP regardless of where the instruction is located. You are
>> talking nonsense.
>>
> Thanks Richard.
>
> On the matter of caching, It's been bothering me...surely even if the
> instruction set is cached, a JMP instruction still takes time, or has
> the processor simply 'cut and pasted' the instruction block into the
> pipeline and elided the JMP altogether?

A transfer of control usually causes a flush of the instruction
pipeline and, dependent on cache size and alignment with respect
to the transfer, also a cache miss. An exception may be a processor
with several speculative execution paths.

--

-TV

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:06:24 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 8 Sep 2021 12:06 UTC

On 08/09/2021 12:12, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>> On 08/09/2021 08:46, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>> SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> writes:
>>>> On 9/7/21 3:44 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> Give me *some* credit for knowing how to code a multitasker and in
>>>>> interrupt service routine
>>>>
>>>> Oh, I'll give due credit. Your code IS a good byte-saver.
>>>> However I've always had a good sense of how bits of code
>>>> can go wrong. You code is perfectly good - but within a
>>>> certain context/environment. As I said, WHICH stack are
>>>> you popping from ?
>>>
>>> TNP’s space optimization doesn’t affect the meaning of the code. POP
>>> uses the same SP regardless of where the instruction is located. You are
>>> talking nonsense.
>>>
>> Thanks Richard.
>>
>> On the matter of caching, It's been bothering me...surely even if the
>> instruction set is cached, a JMP instruction still takes time, or has
>> the processor simply 'cut and pasted' the instruction block into the
>> pipeline and elided the JMP altogether?
>
> Suppose you have many consecutive functions with the common tail, and
> you execute all of them once.
>
> For each of those functions, the object code of the function must be
> loaded from main memory into cache. The number of loads from main memory
> is proportional to the sum of the sizes of the functions.
>
> Now suppose all but one of the functions have that tail replaced by a
> JMP to the first function’s version.
>
> They do indeed incur a small extra cost for the JMP, but after the first
> of them has executed, and _if_ the reduced size means you’ve reduced the
> total amount of code that must be read, the number of loads from main
> memory is reduced.
>
> Loads from main memory are incredibly slow compared to executing single
> instructions - think 10x or 100x as long. The extra cost of the JMP is
> lost in the noise.
>
> This is a very simple model; in reality you won’t notice the
> sub-microsecond savings from eliminating a handful of memory reads. The
> real benefit comes when the space optimization squeezes the working set
> of a long-running program down from a bit bigger than the total cache
> size to a bit smaller.
>
> The effect scales: if you can reduce the number of memory pages your
> program takes, you reduce the number of disk reads, and those are
> even slower.
>
Thanks. That makes it clear. So in fact lots of very small often used
subroutines might be faster than inline coding?

Rather counter intuitive, that.

--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: invalid@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 13:29:44 +0100
Organization: terraraq NNTP server
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Wed, 8 Sep 2021 12:29 UTC

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
> Thanks. That makes it clear. So in fact lots of very small often used
> subroutines might be faster than inline coding?
>
> Rather counter intuitive, that.

It can happen, yes - it will be very dependent on what the code does,
the relationship between its size and cache sizes, etc. Same with data:
if you can make its representation smaller, enough so that it takes less
cache lines (or pages, etc) then overall performance can be better even
though you’re doing more work to unpack it.

A good concrete example of this (much higher up the memory hierarchy) is
that compressed man pages are quicker to render than uncompressed ones
(and have been since at least the 1990s) - gzip decompression is enough
faster than disk read that you can easily measure the difference.

(Granted I’ve not rechecked this against NVMe or other modern ultra-fast
storage.)

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SevenOverSix)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 01:53:54 -0400
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 by: SevenOverSix - Thu, 9 Sep 2021 05:53 UTC

On 9/8/21 2:46 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 08/09/2021 06:36, SevenOverSix wrote:
>> Oh, I'll give due credit. Your code IS a good byte-saver.
>>    However I've always had a good sense of how bits of code
>>    can go wrong. You code is perfectly good - but within a
>>    certain context/environment. As I said, WHICH stack are
>>    you popping from ?
> I answered that:
> The stack that is owned by the current thread

IF you carefully code it that way. But as a "general fix"
I'd still be wary. If you use GOTOs for a bunch of subs
it may NOT be the current thread/isr you're popping from.
The others may get, well, a tad upset ....

Not using subs AT ALL ... then it's far easier/safer
to use the GOTO fixes. There's usually only ONE
frame then.

> The fact that you cannot understand why that makes your comment
> irrelevant worries me greatly. Do you work for Boeing?

Are we going to get into insults now .... ?

I'm not trashing your byte-saving fix - just
cautioning. I've done the same thing, when it
is safe.

I've had a rich and varied career, and apparently you
have too. Seems we've learned some different Truths
however, variations on said experiences. You've seen
some stuff, I've seen other stuff. The Truth doesn't
even lie between here - it's ALL true, within certain
context.

Sorry, but I don't do flame wars or insults. They've
ruined usenet.

The only offset, 'wokeism'/flames/disinfo and such have ruined
all the OTHER , big-$$$, 'social media' too :-)

Maybe there's some Estonian BBS out there that's still decent ...

Anyway, I've provided details in all this stuff some ignorant
troll just can't fake. Requires hands-on experience from
latter 1970s on. How many here now have even held a stack of
IBM cards in their hands, know how they feel, dropped them
all on the floor ? Heard the Tat-Tat-Tat of a teletype terminal
that's not some movie sound effect ? Threaded mag-tapes ? Had
to use panel switches to boot a system ? Dealt with RAM measured
in BYTES ? Seen a paper tape get shredded ? This is Lost Knowledge
at this point. I know, you know, but how many others ? It was where
we came from, shapes where we are and will even shape tomorrow.

The CompuVerse builds on itself, often more evolutionary
than truly 'revolutionary'. The only 'revolution' seems to be
quantum, but even after bragging for a decade+ they can
BARELY make it work - will NOT be coming to your desktop
like EVER.

Would still like my own IBM/360 though - 0.1 mHz, lots
of switches and blinky lights. The ads always showed some
hot-looking women running the things, a 60s/70s flair on
"Desk Set", but I mostly encountered Dilberts :-)

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SevenOverSix)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 02:04:32 -0400
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 by: SevenOverSix - Thu, 9 Sep 2021 06:04 UTC

On 9/8/21 3:46 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> writes:
>> On 9/7/21 3:44 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> Give me *some* credit for knowing how to code a multitasker and in
>>> interrupt service routine
>>
>> Oh, I'll give due credit. Your code IS a good byte-saver.
>> However I've always had a good sense of how bits of code
>> can go wrong. You code is perfectly good - but within a
>> certain context/environment. As I said, WHICH stack are
>> you popping from ?
>
> TNP’s space optimization doesn’t affect the meaning of the code. POP
> uses the same SP regardless of where the instruction is located. You are
> talking nonsense.

ONLY if you use sub-less programs. Try that shit
with threads/subs/ISRs and you'll get burnt.
Absolutely guaranteed. Been there. Debugging
was a total bitch.

It's all CONTEXT - the environment, the hardware, how
YOU set up the program. GOTO shortcuts can be great,
or a great disaster.

But nobody liked Cassandra ...... :-)

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:41:39 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 9 Sep 2021 06:41 UTC

On 09/09/2021 06:53, SevenOverSix wrote:
> On 9/8/21 2:46 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 08/09/2021 06:36, SevenOverSix wrote:
>>> Oh, I'll give due credit. Your code IS a good byte-saver.
>>>    However I've always had a good sense of how bits of code
>>>    can go wrong. You code is perfectly good - but within a
>>>    certain context/environment. As I said, WHICH stack are
>>>    you popping from ?
>> I answered that:
>> The stack that is owned by the current thread
>
>   IF you carefully code it that way. But as a "general fix"
>   I'd still be wary. If you use GOTOs for a bunch of subs
>   it may NOT be the current thread/isr you're popping from.
>   The others may get, well, a tad upset ....
>
>   Not using subs AT ALL ... then it's far easier/safer
>   to use the GOTO fixes. There's usually only ONE
>   frame then.
>
>> The fact that you cannot understand why that makes your comment
>> irrelevant worries me greatly. Do you work for Boeing?
>
>
>   Are we going to get into insults now .... ?
>

No, I am genuinely concerned that you are coding real time software
without apparently understanding how multitasking context switching works.

>   I'm not trashing your byte-saving fix - just
>   cautioning. I've done the same thing, when it
>   is safe.
>
>   I've had a rich and varied career, and apparently you
>   have too. Seems we've learned some different Truths
>   however, variations on said experiences. You've seen
>   some stuff, I've seen other stuff. The Truth doesn't
>   even lie between here - it's ALL true, within certain
>   context.
>
>   Sorry, but I don't do flame wars or insults. They've
>   ruined usenet.
>
>   The only offset, 'wokeism'/flames/disinfo and such have ruined
>   all the OTHER , big-$$$, 'social media' too  :-)
>
Dont change the subjectt

>   Maybe there's some Estonian BBS out there that's still decent ...
>
>   Anyway, I've provided details in all this stuff some ignorant
>   troll just can't fake. Requires hands-on experience from
>   latter 1970s on. How many here now have even held a stack of
>   IBM cards in their hands, know how they feel, dropped them
>   all on the floor ? Heard the Tat-Tat-Tat of a teletype terminal
>   that's not some movie sound effect ? Threaded mag-tapes ? Had
>   to use panel switches to boot a system ? Dealt with RAM measured
>   in BYTES ? Seen a paper tape get shredded ? This is Lost Knowledge
>   at this point. I know, you know, but how many others ? It was where
>   we came from, shapes where we are and will even shape tomorrow.
>
>   The CompuVerse builds on itself, often more evolutionary
>   than truly 'revolutionary'. The only 'revolution' seems to be
>   quantum, but even after bragging for a decade+ they can
>   BARELY make it work - will NOT be coming to your desktop
>   like EVER.
>
>   Would still like my own IBM/360 though - 0.1 mHz, lots
>   of switches and blinky lights. The ads always showed some
>   hot-looking women running the things, a 60s/70s flair on
>   "Desk Set", but I mostly encountered Dilberts  :-)
>
Yawn

--
“The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools.”

Herbert Spencer

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:46:27 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 9 Sep 2021 06:46 UTC

On 09/09/2021 07:04, SevenOverSix wrote:
> On 9/8/21 3:46 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> writes:
>>> On 9/7/21 3:44 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> Give me *some* credit for knowing how to code a multitasker and in
>>>> interrupt service routine
>>>
>>>    Oh, I'll give due credit. Your code IS a good byte-saver.
>>>    However I've always had a good sense of how bits of code
>>>    can go wrong. You code is perfectly good - but within a
>>>    certain context/environment. As I said, WHICH stack are
>>>    you popping from ?
>>
>> TNP’s space optimization doesn’t affect the meaning of the code. POP
>> uses the same SP regardless of where the instruction is located. You are
>> talking nonsense.
>
>   ONLY if you use sub-less programs. Try that shit
>   with threads/subs/ISRs and you'll get burnt.
>   Absolutely guaranteed. Been there. Debugging
>   was a total bitch.
>

Why would you be using that code fragment *without* it being part of a
subroutine?

I've written reams of code to operate under context switched
multitaskers and interrupt service routines, using subroutines

As long as you only use memory relative the the contexts stack frame,
they are thread safe, If you modify memory outside of that it had better
not be modified by anyone else or you are in trouble

>   It's all CONTEXT - the environment, the hardware, how
>   YOU set up the program. GOTO shortcuts can be great,
>   or a great disaster.
>
No, it isnt

Its about actually understanding how multitasking works

>   But nobody liked Cassandra ......  :-)
>

--
“The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools.”

Herbert Spencer

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SevenOverSix)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 01:52:42 -0400
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 by: SevenOverSix - Fri, 10 Sep 2021 05:52 UTC

On 9/9/21 2:41 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 09/09/2021 06:53, SevenOverSix wrote:
>> On 9/8/21 2:46 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 08/09/2021 06:36, SevenOverSix wrote:
>>>> Oh, I'll give due credit. Your code IS a good byte-saver.
>>>>    However I've always had a good sense of how bits of code
>>>>    can go wrong. You code is perfectly good - but within a
>>>>    certain context/environment. As I said, WHICH stack are
>>>>    you popping from ?
>>> I answered that:
>>> The stack that is owned by the current thread
>>
>>    IF you carefully code it that way. But as a "general fix"
>>    I'd still be wary. If you use GOTOs for a bunch of subs
>>    it may NOT be the current thread/isr you're popping from.
>>    The others may get, well, a tad upset ....
>>
>>    Not using subs AT ALL ... then it's far easier/safer
>>    to use the GOTO fixes. There's usually only ONE
>>    frame then.
>>
>>> The fact that you cannot understand why that makes your comment
>>> irrelevant worries me greatly. Do you work for Boeing?
>>
>>
>>    Are we going to get into insults now .... ?
>>
>
> No, I am genuinely concerned that you are coding real time software
> without apparently understanding how multitasking context switching works.

Ummmmm ... did it for 30 years ... some of my product
was used for a decade+ without issues.

I must grasp SOMETHING ...

For MICROCONTROLLERS it's all much simpler. You
can have basically ONE context. An ISR might
create two, but they're BRIEF. However if you
have TWO+ ISRs, device-driven plus TIME driven,
it can get weird.

For a modern MICROPROCESSOR it gets a LOT more
complicated.

I suspect SOME of our "disagreement" revolves around
the TERMINOLOGY we use. "Context" means something
different to you and I.

Anyway, my stuff WORKED. I got the paycheck. The
customers were HAPPY. Didn't even over-charge them
because development was FUN.

>>    I'm not trashing your byte-saving fix - just
>>    cautioning. I've done the same thing, when it
>>    is safe.
>>
>>    I've had a rich and varied career, and apparently you
>>    have too. Seems we've learned some different Truths
>>    however, variations on said experiences. You've seen
>>    some stuff, I've seen other stuff. The Truth doesn't
>>    even lie between here - it's ALL true, within certain
>>    context.
>>
>>    Sorry, but I don't do flame wars or insults. They've
>>    ruined usenet.
>>
>>    The only offset, 'wokeism'/flames/disinfo and such have ruined
>>    all the OTHER , big-$$$, 'social media' too  :-)
>>
> Dont change the subjectt

Drifted in there .... not entirely without reason ...

>
>>    Maybe there's some Estonian BBS out there that's still decent ...
>>
>>    Anyway, I've provided details in all this stuff some ignorant
>>    troll just can't fake. Requires hands-on experience from
>>    latter 1970s on. How many here now have even held a stack of
>>    IBM cards in their hands, know how they feel, dropped them
>>    all on the floor ? Heard the Tat-Tat-Tat of a teletype terminal
>>    that's not some movie sound effect ? Threaded mag-tapes ? Had
>>    to use panel switches to boot a system ? Dealt with RAM measured
>>    in BYTES ? Seen a paper tape get shredded ? This is Lost Knowledge
>>    at this point. I know, you know, but how many others ? It was where
>>    we came from, shapes where we are and will even shape tomorrow.
>>
>>    The CompuVerse builds on itself, often more evolutionary
>>    than truly 'revolutionary'. The only 'revolution' seems to be
>>    quantum, but even after bragging for a decade+ they can
>>    BARELY make it work - will NOT be coming to your desktop
>>    like EVER.
>>
>>    Would still like my own IBM/360 though - 0.1 mHz, lots
>>    of switches and blinky lights. The ads always showed some
>>    hot-looking women running the things, a 60s/70s flair on
>>    "Desk Set", but I mostly encountered Dilberts  :-)
>>
> Yawn

Yea, yawn .... guess there's no reason to listen to
your "philosophizing" anymore.

I'll stick with the practical programmers - the people
who Make It Work. Screw 'philosophy', these are MACHINES.
They don't have civil rights, don't "identify" as anything
(yet), they are just THINGS. Bend them to your will. The
application is the application and the boss INSISTS it
work - like yesterday.

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

<yaWdnahbeecWnab8nZ2dnUU7-NnNnZ2d@earthlink.com>

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Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SevenOverSix)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 02:51:54 -0400
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 by: SevenOverSix - Fri, 10 Sep 2021 06:51 UTC

On 9/9/21 2:46 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 09/09/2021 07:04, SevenOverSix wrote:
>> On 9/8/21 3:46 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>> SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> writes:
>>>> On 9/7/21 3:44 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> Give me *some* credit for knowing how to code a multitasker and in
>>>>> interrupt service routine
>>>>
>>>>    Oh, I'll give due credit. Your code IS a good byte-saver.
>>>>    However I've always had a good sense of how bits of code
>>>>    can go wrong. You code is perfectly good - but within a
>>>>    certain context/environment. As I said, WHICH stack are
>>>>    you popping from ?
>>>
>>> TNP’s space optimization doesn’t affect the meaning of the code. POP
>>> uses the same SP regardless of where the instruction is located. You are
>>> talking nonsense.
>>
>>    ONLY if you use sub-less programs. Try that shit
>>    with threads/subs/ISRs and you'll get burnt.
>>    Absolutely guaranteed. Been there. Debugging
>>    was a total bitch.
>>
>
> Why would you be using that code fragment *without* it being part of a
> subroutine?

Your fragment was sold as a fix for subroutineS. For
ISR(s).

In SOME carefully crafted software IT WILL WORK FINE.
But not ALL.

Especially for microcontrollers, "sub-less", GOTO-structured,
code may be the BEST choice - smaller, faster, simpler. Been
there, done it, not sorry.

But when you move up to microprocessors/OSs/multi-thread-core
... then things can get very weird. If you MUST have tippy-top
performance then it's NOT WikiPedia simple - you have to really
KNOW how that little black square thing THINKS.

> I've written reams of code to operate under context switched
> multitaskers and interrupt service routines, using subroutines

Good.

But shit CAN go very wrong ......

A little bumblebee starts buzzing in the back of
my head - saying *something* may not be accomodated.

> As long as you only use memory relative the the contexts stack frame,
> they are thread safe, If you modify memory outside of that it had better
> not be modified by anyone else or you are in trouble

Ah .. "So Long As" ... :-)

You see, THAT'S the rub I'm talking about.

We're just not speaking the exact same language here.
I learned this shit entirely on my own over 30+ years
and think of it MY way, in MY terms. You took some
slightly different paths and think of it YOUR way,
in YOUR terms. I don't think we're ACTUALLY in so
much disagreement as it seems.

>
>>    It's all CONTEXT - the environment, the hardware, how
>>    YOU set up the program. GOTO shortcuts can be great,
>>    or a great disaster.
>>
> No, it isnt

Yes, it VERY much is - at least as I think of "context".

> Its about actually understanding how multitasking works

Multi-tasking can work in several ways , depending on
the CPU and the app you craft. Intel/AMD are NOT the
alpha and omega of the universe.

This is an -ix group, but a lot of us also craft apps
for things with NO OS at all. Weird chips. Weird apps.
Wrote anything for an Epson 4-bit chip lately ?
How's your Atmel/Arduino ? 8051 ? PIC ? Those kinds of
chips are in *everything* the world wants, all the little
conveniences. Make your Mr. Coffee work. Your microwave.
Your TV remote. Your home alarm. Your A/C thermostat.
What makes your 'woke' solar panels charge the damned
batteries right. One of those weather monitors. Your
car ignition. They ain't DOS or Winders or Linux - but
they make the real world work.

The "higher level" systems "Make Use Of Them" ... but
they have to deliver, often with ultra-limited resources,
in the first place.

See where I'm coming from ?

>>    But nobody liked Cassandra ......  :-)
>>
>
>

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

<87sfyc7r37.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>

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From: invalid@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:49:32 +0100
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Fri, 10 Sep 2021 08:49 UTC

SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> writes:
> On 9/8/21 3:46 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> writes:
>>> On 9/7/21 3:44 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> Give me *some* credit for knowing how to code a multitasker and in
>>>> interrupt service routine
>>>
>>> Oh, I'll give due credit. Your code IS a good byte-saver.
>>> However I've always had a good sense of how bits of code
>>> can go wrong. You code is perfectly good - but within a
>>> certain context/environment. As I said, WHICH stack are
>>> you popping from ?
>>
>> TNP’s space optimization doesn’t affect the meaning of the code. POP
>> uses the same SP regardless of where the instruction is located. You
>> are talking nonsense.
>
> ONLY if you use sub-less programs. Try that shit
> with threads/subs/ISRs and you'll get burnt.
> Absolutely guaranteed. Been there. Debugging
> was a total bitch.

TNP’s code is x86; you can easily find the x86 instruction set reference
online. There is nothing to support your counterfactual argument there.
If you want to argue about some other ISA we can look at that instead.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SevenOverSix)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 02:03:58 -0400
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 by: SevenOverSix - Sat, 11 Sep 2021 06:03 UTC

On 9/8/21 3:46 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> writes:
>> On 9/7/21 3:44 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> Give me *some* credit for knowing how to code a multitasker and in
>>> interrupt service routine
>>
>> Oh, I'll give due credit. Your code IS a good byte-saver.
>> However I've always had a good sense of how bits of code
>> can go wrong. You code is perfectly good - but within a
>> certain context/environment. As I said, WHICH stack are
>> you popping from ?
>
> TNP’s space optimization doesn’t affect the meaning of the code. POP
> uses the same SP regardless of where the instruction is located. You are
> talking nonsense.

Doesn't even MATTER if it's the same SP ... WHO has
pushed their crap ONTO it at the instant ?

I'm really concerned that you can't see how
GOTO :
pop
pop
pop
any/everywhere in a program can go horribly wrong.

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

<shhhp4$evh$1@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 07:19:16 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 11 Sep 2021 06:19 UTC

On 11/09/2021 07:03, SevenOverSix wrote:
> On 9/8/21 3:46 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> writes:
>>> On 9/7/21 3:44 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> Give me *some* credit for knowing how to code a multitasker and in
>>>> interrupt service routine
>>>
>>>    Oh, I'll give due credit. Your code IS a good byte-saver.
>>>    However I've always had a good sense of how bits of code
>>>    can go wrong. You code is perfectly good - but within a
>>>    certain context/environment. As I said, WHICH stack are
>>>    you popping from ?
>>
>> TNP’s space optimization doesn’t affect the meaning of the code. POP
>> uses the same SP regardless of where the instruction is located. You are
>> talking nonsense.
>
>   Doesn't even MATTER if it's the same SP ... WHO has
>   pushed their crap ONTO it at the instant ?
>
>   I'm really concerned that you can't see how
>     GOTO :
>       pop
>       pop
>       pop
>   any/everywhere in a program can go horribly wrong.
>
Im really concrened that you cannot see how

GOTO :
pop
pop
pop

Is different from just

pop
pop
pop

--
It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
for the voice of the kingdom.

Jonathan Swift

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

<87mtoj7ekn.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>

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From: invalid@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 08:32:08 +0100
Organization: terraraq NNTP server
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Sat, 11 Sep 2021 07:32 UTC

SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> writes:
> On 9/8/21 3:46 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> writes:
>>> On 9/7/21 3:44 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> Give me *some* credit for knowing how to code a multitasker and in
>>>> interrupt service routine
>>>
>>> Oh, I'll give due credit. Your code IS a good byte-saver.
>>> However I've always had a good sense of how bits of code
>>> can go wrong. You code is perfectly good - but within a
>>> certain context/environment. As I said, WHICH stack are
>>> you popping from ?
>>
>> TNP’s space optimization doesn’t affect the meaning of the code. POP
>> uses the same SP regardless of where the instruction is located. You are
>> talking nonsense.
>
> Doesn't even MATTER if it's the same SP ... WHO has
> pushed their crap ONTO it at the instant ?

Nobody has. Introducing a JMP doesn’t affect the stack at all.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 23:17:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SevenOverSix)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 00:17:00 -0400
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 by: SevenOverSix - Sun, 12 Sep 2021 04:17 UTC

On 9/11/21 3:32 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> writes:
>> On 9/8/21 3:46 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>> SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> writes:
>>>> On 9/7/21 3:44 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> Give me *some* credit for knowing how to code a multitasker and in
>>>>> interrupt service routine
>>>>
>>>> Oh, I'll give due credit. Your code IS a good byte-saver.
>>>> However I've always had a good sense of how bits of code
>>>> can go wrong. You code is perfectly good - but within a
>>>> certain context/environment. As I said, WHICH stack are
>>>> you popping from ?
>>>
>>> TNP’s space optimization doesn’t affect the meaning of the code. POP
>>> uses the same SP regardless of where the instruction is located. You are
>>> talking nonsense.
>>
>> Doesn't even MATTER if it's the same SP ... WHO has
>> pushed their crap ONTO it at the instant ?
>
> Nobody has. Introducing a JMP doesn’t affect the stack at all.

It's not the JMP ... it's what your JMP-ing FROM and TO.

The provided example popped x-number of items off
the stack, regardless of the situation you jumped
FROM. IF your code/subs/isr's are all PERFECTLY
regular, ALWAYS put the exact same number of items
on the stack, then you can do the JMP/POP trick safely.

You can always keep track of what was added to the
stack in a variable and POP accordingly - but then
you're inserting addition/subtraction plus a counting
loop and negate the perks of the trick - basically
replicating what the processor normally does when it
returns from a sub - but SLOWER.

All I'm saying is that the example was a special case.
There ARE ways to get away with it, but it's rarely
THAT simple. IF you can possibly spare the memory
and cycles, do it more conventionally with every
sub cleaning up its own mess in the order created.
I've done a lot of microcontroller projects and
I know that sometimes you CAN'T spare the memory
or cycles. Very very careful programming and
optimization is then required. Often what you
originally did in 20 instructions can be done
in 10 IF ...

Mr. Philosopher seems to think I'm dissing him. I'm not.
His fix IS clever - but you can't use it EVERYWHERE on
EVERYTHING.

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

<871r5u2p13.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>

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From: invalid@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 09:09:44 +0100
Organization: terraraq NNTP server
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Sun, 12 Sep 2021 08:09 UTC

SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> writes:
> It's not the JMP ... it's what your JMP-ing FROM and TO.
>
> The provided example popped x-number of items off the stack,
> regardless of the situation you jumped FROM.

Nope. The example replaced a specific sequence of POPs and RET with a
JMP to the same sequence of POPs and RET.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

<shkl1v$6pn$1@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 11:33:34 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sun, 12 Sep 2021 10:33 UTC

On 12/09/2021 05:17, SevenOverSix wrote:
> On 9/11/21 3:32 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> writes:
>>> On 9/8/21 3:46 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>>> SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> writes:
>>>>> On 9/7/21 3:44 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>> Give me *some* credit for knowing how to code a multitasker and in
>>>>>> interrupt service routine
>>>>>
>>>>>     Oh, I'll give due credit. Your code IS a good byte-saver.
>>>>>     However I've always had a good sense of how bits of code
>>>>>     can go wrong. You code is perfectly good - but within a
>>>>>     certain context/environment. As I said, WHICH stack are
>>>>>     you popping from ?
>>>>
>>>> TNP’s space optimization doesn’t affect the meaning of the code. POP
>>>> uses the same SP regardless of where the instruction is located. You
>>>> are
>>>> talking nonsense.
>>>
>>>    Doesn't even MATTER if it's the same SP ... WHO has
>>>    pushed their crap ONTO it at the instant ?
>>
>> Nobody has. Introducing a JMP doesn’t affect the stack at all.
>
>   It's not the JMP ... it's what your JMP-ing FROM and TO.
>
>   The provided example popped x-number of items off
>   the stack, regardless of the situation you jumped
>   FROM. IF your code/subs/isr's are all PERFECTLY
>   regular, ALWAYS put the exact same number of items
>   on the stack, then you can do the JMP/POP trick safely.
>
Well of course they are!

Why on earth would one not make sure of that?

>   You can always keep track of what was added to the
>   stack in a variable and POP accordingly - but then
>   you're inserting addition/subtraction plus a counting
>   loop and negate the perks of the trick - basically
>   replicating what the processor normally does when it
>   returns from a sub - but SLOWER.
>
>   All I'm saying is that the example was a special case.
>   There ARE ways to get away with it, but it's rarely
>   THAT simple. IF you can possibly spare the memory
>   and cycles, do it more conventionally with every
>   sub cleaning up its own mess in the order created.
>   I've done a lot of microcontroller projects and
>   I know that sometimes you CAN'T spare the memory
>   or cycles. Very very careful programming and
>   optimization is then required. Often what you
>   originally did in 20 instructions can be done
>   in 10 IF ...
>
>   Mr. Philosopher seems to think I'm dissing him. I'm not.
>   His fix IS clever - but you can't use it EVERYWHERE on
>   EVERYTHING.
>

You can use it anywhere you have the same sequence of POPS followed by a RET

And in the case in point the original designer simply always used the
same registers - AX, BX, CX, DX - as scratch storage in any subroutine.

And because I was modifying and extending his BIOS code, I followed the
same convention as well.

When you needed to cram more into an already full 2K EEPROM it was a way
to do it.

--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

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server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor