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computers / comp.os.linux.misc / Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

SubjectAuthor
* Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Ant
+- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Roger Blake
+- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Bobbie Sellers
+* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Joerg Lorenz
| `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|  `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Joerg Lorenz
|   `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|    `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Joerg Lorenz
|     +- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|     +- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Bobbie Sellers
|     `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Charlie Gibbs
+* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
|`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Marc Haber
| `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
|  `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Marc Haber
|   +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Andreas Kohlbach
|   |`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
|   | |`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Carlos E. R.
|   | | `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
|   | |  `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Marc Haber
|   | |   +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Carlos E. R.
|   | |   |`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
|   | |   | +- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Marc Haber
|   | |   | +- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Joerg Lorenz
|   | |   | `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Bobbie Sellers
|   | |   |  +* OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Rinaldi
|   | |   |  |+- Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. oldBobbie Sellers
|   | |   |  |+- Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. oldBobbie Sellers
|   | |   |  |`* Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. oldBobbie Sellers
|   | |   |  | +- Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. oldThe Natural Philosopher
|   | |   |  | `* Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. oldSixOverFive
|   | |   |  |  `* Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. oldJoerg Lorenz
|   | |   |  |   `* Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Andreas Kohlbach
|   | |   |  |    `- Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. oldSixOverFive
|   | |   |  `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |   +- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Andreas Kohlbach
|   | |   `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
|   | |    +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Richard Kettlewell
|   | |    |`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
|   | |    | `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Richard Kettlewell
|   | |    |  `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |    |   +- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Richard Kettlewell
|   | |    |   `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Dan Espen
|   | |    +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Carlos E. R.
|   | |    |`- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Joerg Lorenz
|   | |    `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Stéphane CARPENTIER
|   | |     `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
|   | |      |+- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Carlos E. R.
|   | |      |+- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      |`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      | `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SevenOverSix
|   | |      |  `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      |   `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SevenOverSix
|   | |      |    +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      |    |`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SevenOverSix
|   | |      |    | `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      |    |  `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SevenOverSix
|   | |      |    `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Richard Kettlewell
|   | |      |     +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      |     |+* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Richard Kettlewell
|   | |      |     ||`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      |     || `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Richard Kettlewell
|   | |      |     |`- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Tauno Voipio
|   | |      |     +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SevenOverSix
|   | |      |     |+* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      |     ||`- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SevenOverSix
|   | |      |     |`- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Richard Kettlewell
|   | |      |     `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SevenOverSix
|   | |      |      +- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      |      `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Richard Kettlewell
|   | |      |       `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SevenOverSix
|   | |      |        +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Richard Kettlewell
|   | |      |        |`- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SevenOverSix
|   | |      |        `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |      `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Tauno Voipio
|   | |       `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |        +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Tauno Voipio
|   | |        |`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | |        | `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SevenOverSix
|   | |        `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Richard Kettlewell
|   | |         `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   | `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Marc Haber
|   |  `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
|    +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Marc Haber
|    |`- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
|    `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Stéphane CARPENTIER
|     `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?SixOverFive
+* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Marc Haber
|`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
| +* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
| |`- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
| `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Marc Haber
|  `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
|   `* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Carlos E. R.
|    `- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Stéphane CARPENTIER
+* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?Andreas Kohlbach
|`- Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?The Natural Philosopher
`* Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?TJ

Pages:12345
Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

<sh0ajo$cp1$1@dont-email.me>

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 18:32:40 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 4 Sep 2021 17:32 UTC

On 04/09/2021 16:04, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 9/3/21 21:31, SixOverFive wrote:
>
> snipp/
>>
>>    It's a niche.
>>
>>    Ok, you're safe, I'm about at the retirement point now ...
>>    some little place in Florida with a scraggly palm tree
>>    in the front yard - watch the IT world go to hell from
>>    a safe distance. How'd that old old song go - something
>>    like "All fall down go boom" ? MUST have been about
>>    SolarWinds and Pointy-Haired bosses ...........
>
>     Don't forget your breathing apparatus when Florida falls
> beneath the encroaching waters.   Somewhere inland would be better
> and on hard rack not that porous limestone that Florida seems to be
> made of.
>
>
sell your beachside properties below cost to hollywood stars who take
private jets to attend climate conferences.
THEY will buy them because THEY know man made climate change is 9$% bunk.
They are paid to ACT (that's why they are called ACTORS) *as if* its real.

--
I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
....than to have answers that cannot be questioned

Richard Feynman

Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old
PC?
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 18:33:42 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 4 Sep 2021 17:33 UTC

On 04/09/2021 16:41, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 9/4/21 08:28, Rinaldi wrote:
>> On 9/4/21 10:04, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>> On 9/3/21 21:31, SixOverFive wrote:
>>>
>>> snipp/
>>>>
>>>>    It's a niche.
>>>>
>>>>    Ok, you're safe, I'm about at the retirement point now ...
>>>>    some little place in Florida with a scraggly palm tree
>>>>    in the front yard - watch the IT world go to hell from
>>>>    a safe distance. How'd that old old song go - something
>>>>    like "All fall down go boom" ? MUST have been about
>>>>    SolarWinds and Pointy-Haired bosses ...........
>>>
>>>      Don't forget your breathing apparatus when Florida falls
>>> beneath the encroaching waters.   Somewhere inland would be better
>>> and on hard rack not that porous limestone that Florida seems to be
>>> made of.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I hope that was tongue in cheek.  In 2001 I bought a condo on the Fl
>> east coast, 8 feet above sea level.  Today still 8 feet above.  Miami
>> is sinking because it was built on recovered swampland.  Don't believe
>> the hype.
>>
>> Rinaldi
>
>     Keep up on the news.  New York City lost people in basement
> apartments.  The Oceans are rising, And the first hint will be when
> a heavy rain hits and the water has no place to go.  Miami may be
> sinking, but the Gulf and Atlantic waters are rising as well.
>
>     The oceans are rising because they are pissed at all the
> crap and plastic we fill them with and of course the Carbon Dioxide
> and methane in our atmosphere our energy crap if you will. The
> Ice on Greenland and on Antarctica is melting and coming for us all.
>
>     The limestone of Florida and a good many other limey places
> is going to dissolve in the acidulated Oceans.
>
>     As to what that may do to sea life and when salt intrudes
> into Fresh water habitats so long to Salmon and Dugongs.
>
> bliss - 'Nearly any fool can use a Linux computer. Many do.' After all
> here We are...
>
the man who drank the koolaid - and then asked for more.

--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

<slrnsj7cac.nus.sc@scarpet42p.localdomain>

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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
From: sc@fiat-linux.fr (Stéphane CARPENTIER)
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
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 by: Stéphane CARPENTIER - Sat, 4 Sep 2021 17:47 UTC

Le 04-09-2021, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> a écrit :
>
> SOMETIMES though, you can CHEAT. Change the properties of
> your symlink so even root can't edit/change/replace it.
> The installer may bitch, but SO WHAT.

Cheating on your installer can't be a good advice. If you don't like
what it does, use another installer, install everything manually,
whatever. But cheating is the better way to have an unstable system
without being able to understand why at some point.

You do what you want on your computer: I don't care, it's your computer.
But pretending others should do the same is just plain wrong.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

<slrnsj7cuv.nus.sc@scarpet42p.localdomain>

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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
From: sc@fiat-linux.fr (Stéphane CARPENTIER)
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
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 by: Stéphane CARPENTIER - Sat, 4 Sep 2021 17:58 UTC

Le 02-09-2021, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> a écrit :
>
> Well, it's the FIRST thing I install on a new install.
> Everything Command-Line is for the 80s - or those
> looking for job security :-)

Certainly not. The CLI is the most efficient way to achieve a lot of
things. By design, you can script and automate a lot of task more easily
than with a GUI.

> So we'll have to agree to disagree.

Yes, and on a lot of subjects.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: sc@fiat-linux.fr (Stéphane CARPENTIER)
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
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 by: Stéphane CARPENTIER - Sat, 4 Sep 2021 18:09 UTC

Le 01-09-2021, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
> On 01/09/2021 11.42, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>> Buy Nvidia whenever possible for Linux.

Certainly not.

> I had to do the same as Marc, as my NVidia card stopped being supported
> by the proprietary driver, and I changed to AMD too.
>
> Native Linux support for Nvidia cards is limited, there is no 3d, and
> limited hardware acceleration (with the open driver).
>
> With AMD, I don't need any proprietary driver to get games running.
>
> So, avoid Nvidia at all costs. Ask (or google) Linus Torvalds what he
> thinks of Nvidia.

Agreed. With nvidia, you need the proprietary drivers. An they are not
written as fast as the kernel, so they always lag behind.

> As to not happening before, yes, it did, with ATI cards long ago. A
> decade or two, before it joined with AMD and they opened things.

Yes. With nvidia, you have always had the need to use the proprietary
drivers. But two decades ago it was the only way to benefit of the
advantages of a recent graphic card. So it was a good advice. But not
anymore. Far from it.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SixOverFive)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 00:07:21 -0400
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 by: SixOverFive - Sun, 5 Sep 2021 04:07 UTC

On 9/4/21 3:44 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> SixOverFive <hae274c.net> writes:
>> SOMETIMES though, you can CHEAT. Change the properties of
>> your symlink so even root can't edit/change/replace it.
>> The installer may bitch, but SO WHAT.
>>
>> A backup is to simply make a script you run after updates,
>> one that once again nukes/renames vi and related and replaces
>> them with your symlinks/alternatives. You can even run it
>> at startup so nobody can sneak anything in on you ...
>>
>> Damned systems WILL do what I WANT them to do ...
>
> Why do you even have vi installed then?

Part of the "standard install".

You CAN uninstall - though usually you'll get all
kinds of screaming warnings about how 999 other
things will also be uninstalled. You can mark it
to not be RE-installed too - but again you'll get
endless grief when trying to install other software.

So - FAKE IT OUT.

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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 by: SixOverFive - Sun, 5 Sep 2021 04:22 UTC

On 9/4/21 1:58 PM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 02-09-2021, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> a écrit :
>>
>> Well, it's the FIRST thing I install on a new install.
>> Everything Command-Line is for the 80s - or those
>> looking for job security :-)
>
> Certainly not. The CLI is the most efficient way to achieve a lot of
> things. By design, you can script and automate a lot of task more easily
> than with a GUI.
>
>> So we'll have to agree to disagree.
>
> Yes, and on a lot of subjects.
>

CLI does have its place. GUIs cannot always accomodate
the level of detail needed to do tricky stuff.

But here, mostly, I was talking about EDITORS. The ONLY
CLI editor I regularly use is nano. The rest can just be
flushed into the cesspool of history IMHO.

A little example - a laptop I was using had a GUI to set
the background, hardware, LED brightness level (not the
same as the "software" level which results in a washed-out
appearance). Thing is, the setting would not "take". Always
rebooted to a super-dim screen. Dunno WHERE this 'default'
was kicking in - it's deep deep.

So ... "sudo nano /etc/rc.local" and add
"echo 150 > /sys/class/backlight/amdgpu_bl0/brightness"
and THAT bit of brute-force FIXES it.

Took a LOT of looking to find that bit of obscura too.
99 other dead ends and/or SUPER-complex approaches.

Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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 by: SixOverFive - Sun, 5 Sep 2021 04:53 UTC

On 9/4/21 11:41 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 9/4/21 08:28, Rinaldi wrote:
>> On 9/4/21 10:04, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>> On 9/3/21 21:31, SixOverFive wrote:
>>>
>>> snipp/
>>>>
>>>>    It's a niche.
>>>>
>>>>    Ok, you're safe, I'm about at the retirement point now ...
>>>>    some little place in Florida with a scraggly palm tree
>>>>    in the front yard - watch the IT world go to hell from
>>>>    a safe distance. How'd that old old song go - something
>>>>    like "All fall down go boom" ? MUST have been about
>>>>    SolarWinds and Pointy-Haired bosses ...........
>>>
>>>      Don't forget your breathing apparatus when Florida falls
>>> beneath the encroaching waters.   Somewhere inland would be better
>>> and on hard rack not that porous limestone that Florida seems to be
>>> made of.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I hope that was tongue in cheek.  In 2001 I bought a condo on the Fl
>> east coast, 8 feet above sea level.  Today still 8 feet above.  Miami
>> is sinking because it was built on recovered swampland.  Don't believe
>> the hype.
>>
>> Rinaldi
>
>     Keep up on the news.  New York City lost people in basement
> apartments.  The Oceans are rising, And the first hint will be when
> a heavy rain hits and the water has no place to go.  Miami may be
> sinking, but the Gulf and Atlantic waters are rising as well.
>
>     The oceans are rising because they are pissed at all the
> crap and plastic we fill them with and of course the Carbon Dioxide
> and methane in our atmosphere our energy crap if you will. The
> Ice on Greenland and on Antarctica is melting and coming for us all.
>
>     The limestone of Florida and a good many other limey places
> is going to dissolve in the acidulated Oceans.
>
>     As to what that may do to sea life and when salt intrudeugs
> into Fresh water habitats so long to Salmon and Dugongs.
>
> bliss - 'Nearly any fool can use a Linux computer. Many do.' After all
> here We are...
>

Florida is not going under for centuries.

One asteroid hit or volcanic event and it'll be the
Big Freeze again and you could WALK from Miami to
Grand Bahama. The climate has NEVER been stable.

But don't invest heavily in a 70s/80s beachfront condo.

Went diving in a Florida sink hole once though - full
cavers rig. The "rock" down there like swiss cheese
with more "Swiss" than "cheese" - really, not kidding.
"Rock foam" is all that's holding up Orlando.

As for rising water, that's what a HOUSE-BOAT is for :-)
Scraggly potted palm tree on the poop deck.

Hmmm - I wonder what a basic 80' utility barge costs ?
Could make one hell of a houseboat out of one ..

Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: hugybear@gmx.ch (Joerg Lorenz)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old
PC?
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 by: Joerg Lorenz - Sun, 5 Sep 2021 06:57 UTC

Am 05.09.21 um 06:53 schrieb SixOverFive:
> Florida is not going under for centuries.
>
> One asteroid hit or volcanic event and it'll be the
> Big Freeze again and you could WALK from Miami to
> Grand Bahama. The climate has NEVER been stable.

And ignorant and stupid idiots and Trolls never died out whether it was
freezing cold or boiling hot.
*SCNR*

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: invalid@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
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Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Sun, 5 Sep 2021 07:16 UTC

SixOverFive <hae274c.net> writes:
> On 9/4/21 3:44 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> SixOverFive <hae274c.net> writes:
>>> Damned systems WILL do what I WANT them to do ...
>>
>> Why do you even have vi installed then?
>
> Part of the "standard install".
>
> You CAN uninstall - though usually you'll get all kinds of screaming
> warnings about how 999 other things will also be uninstalled. You can
> mark it to not be RE-installed too - but again you'll get endless
> grief when trying to install other software.

I have indeed uninstalled it and didn’t get any grief over it. What do
you think depends on it?

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 09:35:07 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sun, 5 Sep 2021 08:35 UTC

On 04/09/2021 18:47, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 04-09-2021, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> a écrit :
>>
>> SOMETIMES though, you can CHEAT. Change the properties of
>> your symlink so even root can't edit/change/replace it.
>> The installer may bitch, but SO WHAT.
>
> Cheating on your installer can't be a good advice. If you don't like
> what it does, use another installer, install everything manually,
> whatever. But cheating is the better way to have an unstable system
> without being able to understand why at some point.
>
> You do what you want on your computer: I don't care, it's your computer.
> But pretending others should do the same is just plain wrong.
>
You are really simply echoing te dichotomy between a personal computer,
which does what *I* want, and a corporate system, which has to do what
your *employer* wants, subject to maintainability and reliability and
security constraints.

I would suggest that they are neither te same case, nor indicate the
same solutions.

One may do a 5 minute hack to prove a principle and get some code
working, but *if* it is going to be replicated or maintained by others
it behoves one to rework it into whatever is expected by e.g. other
engineers, installation scripts and the like.

On the other hand, if it is *not*, so what? Typically embedded systems
that are neither subject to maintenance or upgrade can so whatever they
like.

Faced with lack of space in a 2K EPROM, I replaced all instances of
POP AX
POP BX
POP CX
POP DX
RET

with
JMP STDEXIT

STDEXIT:
POP AX
POP BX
POP CX
POP DX
RET

and gained the 64 bytes of PROM space I needed to include an extended BIOS.

I am sure those who are imbued with 'never use a goto' would be
horrified. But it worked, the customer got his extended bios without
having to change his bios and I got paid. And really, as we used to say,
in the end its all 'bits, in silicon'.

--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 09:36:49 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sun, 5 Sep 2021 08:36 UTC

On 05/09/2021 08:16, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> SixOverFive <hae274c.net> writes:
>> On 9/4/21 3:44 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>> SixOverFive <hae274c.net> writes:
>>>> Damned systems WILL do what I WANT them to do ...
>>>
>>> Why do you even have vi installed then?
>>
>> Part of the "standard install".
>>
>> You CAN uninstall - though usually you'll get all kinds of screaming
>> warnings about how 999 other things will also be uninstalled. You can
>> mark it to not be RE-installed too - but again you'll get endless
>> grief when trying to install other software.
>
> I have indeed uninstalled it and didn’t get any grief over it. What do
> you think depends on it?
>
Lord knows, but I am massively surprised that something does not.

I have no use for e.g. samba at all, but I am fairly sure something
depends on it

--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: invalid@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 12:50:45 +0100
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X-Boydie: NO
 by: Richard Kettlewell - Sun, 5 Sep 2021 11:50 UTC

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
> On 05/09/2021 08:16, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> SixOverFive <hae274c.net> writes:
>>> On 9/4/21 3:44 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>>> SixOverFive <hae274c.net> writes:
>>>>> Damned systems WILL do what I WANT them to do ...
>>>>
>>>> Why do you even have vi installed then?
>>>
>>> Part of the "standard install".
>>>
>>> You CAN uninstall - though usually you'll get all kinds of screaming
>>> warnings about how 999 other things will also be uninstalled. You can
>>> mark it to not be RE-installed too - but again you'll get endless
>>> grief when trying to install other software.
>>
>> I have indeed uninstalled it and didn’t get any grief over it. What
>> do you think depends on it?
>
> Lord knows, but I am massively surprised that something does not.

Well so far the only concrete evidence I have is that nothing I care
about on a normal desktop system or server depends on vi. Maybe there’s
something that you or SixOverFive care about, but saying that something
depends on it without saying is presumably guesswork.

As far as I can see the only things that depend on vim (rather than
vim|emacs|editor) are packages that extend it somehow.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: dan1espen@gmail.com (Dan Espen)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 09:33:05 -0400
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 by: Dan Espen - Sun, 5 Sep 2021 13:33 UTC

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

> On 05/09/2021 08:16, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> SixOverFive <hae274c.net> writes:
>>> On 9/4/21 3:44 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>>> SixOverFive <hae274c.net> writes:
>>>>> Damned systems WILL do what I WANT them to do ...
>>>>
>>>> Why do you even have vi installed then?
>>>
>>> Part of the "standard install".
>>>
>>> You CAN uninstall - though usually you'll get all kinds of screaming
>>> warnings about how 999 other things will also be uninstalled. You can
>>> mark it to not be RE-installed too - but again you'll get endless
>>> grief when trying to install other software.
>> I have indeed uninstalled it and didn’t get any grief over it. What
>> do
>> you think depends on it?
>>
> Lord knows, but I am massively surprised that something does not.

I can't imagine why...

> I have no use for e.g. samba at all, but I am fairly sure something
> depends on it

[root]# dnf remove samba
Dependencies resolved.
================================================================================================================================================================
Package Architecture Version Repository Size
================================================================================================================================================================
Removing:
samba x86_64 2:4.12.10-0.fc32 @updates 2.7 M
Removing unused dependencies:
liburing x86_64 0.7-2.fc32 @updates 46 k
samba-common-tools x86_64 2:4.12.10-0.fc32 @updates 1.2 M

Transaction Summary
================================================================================================================================================================
Remove 3 Packages

Nothing important.

--
Dan Espen

Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: ank@spamfence.net (Andreas Kohlbach)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
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X-Face-What-Is-It: Capture Bee from Galaga
 by: Andreas Kohlbach - Sun, 5 Sep 2021 16:12 UTC

On Sun, 5 Sep 2021 08:57:49 +0200, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>
> Am 05.09.21 um 06:53 schrieb SixOverFive:
>> Florida is not going under for centuries.
>>
>> One asteroid hit or volcanic event and it'll be the
>> Big Freeze again and you could WALK from Miami to
>> Grand Bahama. The climate has NEVER been stable.
>
> And ignorant and stupid idiots and Trolls never died out whether it was
> freezing cold or boiling hot.
> *SCNR*

Like in the event of earthquakes which more or less completely destroyed
small (Italian) villages several times in a millennium. History knows
about half a dozen events. But no, "Lets rebuild our village again" - at
the exact same location.
--
Andreas

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SixOverFive)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 19:34:33 -0400
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 by: SixOverFive - Sun, 5 Sep 2021 23:34 UTC

On 9/5/21 4:35 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 04/09/2021 18:47, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 04-09-2021, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> a écrit :
>>>
>>>     SOMETIMES though, you can CHEAT. Change the properties of
>>>     your symlink so even root can't edit/change/replace it.
>>>     The installer may bitch, but SO WHAT.
>>
>> Cheating on your installer can't be a good advice. If you don't like
>> what it does, use another installer, install everything manually,
>> whatever. But cheating is the better way to have an unstable system
>> without being able to understand why at some point.
>>
>> You do what you want on your computer: I don't care, it's your computer.
>> But pretending others should do the same is just plair wrong.
>>
> You are really simply echoing te dichotomy between a personal computer,
> which does what *I* want, and a corporate system, which has to do what
> your *employer* wants, subject to maintainability and reliability and
> security constraints.

This dichotomy is understood - you can go more wild west
on computers you own. The other side of this are CEOs,
division mangers, pointy-haired bosses, with NO CLUE how any
box/OS does/should/must work. Whatever the All Important
Project of the day (which often they trash-can next week)
they want it to work NOW NOW NOW and don't care HOW.
The "Art Of Computing" means nothing to them - only $$$
and shutting up the inconvenienced staff.

So, do you completely reinstall everything from scratch,
maybe re-write the accounting system too, or do you MAKE IT
WORK for them ? Many of the abovementioned rude little hacks
are not especially "dangerous" and maybe they'll buy you
the time to straighten things out a little better next week,
find exactly WHICH line in WHICH of 505 config files is
causing the big issue.

> I would suggest that they are neither te same case, nor indicate the
> same solutions.
>

> One may do a 5 minute hack to prove a principle and get some code
> working, but *if* it is going to be replicated or maintained by others
> it behoves one to rework it into whatever is expected by e.g. other
> engineers, installation scripts and the like.
>
> On the other hand, if it is *not*, so what? Typically embedded systems
> that are neither subject to maintenance or upgrade can so whatever they
> like.
>
> Faced with lack of space in a 2K EPROM, I replaced all instances of
> POP AX
> POP BX
> POP CX
> POP DX
> RET
>
> with
> JMP STDEXIT
>
>
> STDEXIT:
> POP AX
> POP BX
> POP CX
> POP DX
> RET
>
> and gained the 64 bytes of PROM space I needed to include an extended BIOS.

So long as there aren't multiple threads going on you CAN
just clean up in one spot. If the eeprom was 2k this was
probably WAY before multithreading. The single-location
thing might also be vulnerable to some race conditions.
I'd worry if there were interrupt routines happening too.

> I am sure those who are imbued with 'never use a goto' would be
> horrified. But it worked, the customer got his extended bios without
> having to change his bios and I got paid. And really, as we used to say,
> in the end its all 'bits, in silicon.

"GOTO" can be GREAT. They're not "elegant" and can indeed
lead to SERIOUS spaghetti code, but sometimes they're the
best, most economical, easiest to write solution. Unwrapping
multi-nested whiles/fors/do loops in the 'elegant' fashion
can actually get rather un-elegant.
, I always liked Pascal because it COULD be "elegant", and far
more self-documenting than the crap 'C' some hotshots would
write that was mostly punctuation characters that actually DID
stuff but nobody - not even the author a month from then -
could figure out HOW. Just did a little utility pgm with a
GUI front-end for somebody last month and used Lazarus/FP
because it's quick and easy and has the Pascal virtues, so
Pascal is hardly some decades-past thing for me. But, some
Pascals DO have a GOTO <label> in there, just in case :-)

Remember a thing called a Psion Organizer ? I think they came
out in the mid/late 80s. Looked like a thick pocket calculator
and had a 2 or 4 line LCD text screen. Various plug-in
cartridges could be had, including non-volatile memory.
Had a ROM BASIC in them that could cover most anything including
serial communications.

Someone wanted me to write a pgm for them that handled
fairly static traveled routes - like a mail carrier
might do. Each stop was a little block and you had to
fill in some questions. The "elegant" way THEN was to
make very good use of GOTOs. I wrote the thing "ladder
style" and you could push a function key to jump back
a question, or the previous block or the next block.
All GOTOs. In THAT case the GOTOs and structure made
the whole pgm far easier to understand and quite compact.
The route particulars were on a plug-in and, when there
were any changes, staff would update the list and hand
out new cartridges. Far more "sneaker-net" back then.
I did rig it so you could sync over serial, but mostly
they found it simpler to just swap cartridges.

I recently found out that at least some workers were
still using the system almost 15 years later ... I'd
have never expected that. They had the devices, the pgm
worked, so why spend more $$$ ?

Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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Subject: Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old
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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SixOverFive)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 20:01:46 -0400
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 by: SixOverFive - Mon, 6 Sep 2021 00:01 UTC

On 9/5/21 12:12 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Sep 2021 08:57:49 +0200, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>>
>> Am 05.09.21 um 06:53 schrieb SixOverFive:
>>> Florida is not going under for centuries.
>>>
>>> One asteroid hit or volcanic event and it'll be the
>>> Big Freeze again and you could WALK from Miami to
>>> Grand Bahama. The climate has NEVER been stable.
>>
>> And ignorant and stupid idiots and Trolls never died out whether it was
>> freezing cold or boiling hot.
>> *SCNR*
>
> Like in the event of earthquakes which more or less completely destroyed
> small (Italian) villages several times in a millennium. History knows
> about half a dozen events. But no, "Lets rebuild our village again" - at
> the exact same location.

Uh huh - see it all the time. They want to rebuild those
little towns down where the hurricane came in last week too.
Guess what happens NEXT year or the year after ....

One of the WORST cases you can easily see in Google Maps
or Earth. Tune in to Naples Italy - and note where Mt.
Vesuvius is.

Anyway, FORGET "stable" when it comes to Nature. Some places
are "more stable", but nowhere always stays the same. The
end of the ice age re-arranged oceans, and spawned vast
deserts too. The Sahara used to be GREEN, trees, grasslands,
a land-o-lakes. The only remaining artifact is Lake Chad.
12-15ky ago "stable" became unstable and there weren't even
any SUVs !

I also like the news hypes saying "This is the worst storm/flood/
drought/heat-wave/etc SINCE 1833 so it MUST be "Climate Change".
Well, where the SUVs in 1833, they'd barely built any trains
back then. As they say, "If it bleeds, it leads" - and fact or
sense or context or perspective will NOT stand in the way.

I do think human activities ARE speeding up some kinds of
"change" - but how MUCH, to what DEGREE, isn't usefully
clear. A few fanatics actually seem to want to kill off
95+ percent of the humans in order to "save the earth".
Hey, WE'RE part of "the earth" too !

Which all goes back to the observation about "models".
I think the term "butterfly effect" came out of doing
climate models. THE problem is the "white-coat effect".
Put garbage into your shiny new expensive "model" and
get garbage out - but going through the new shiny
expensive "model" makes it LOOK like good "science",
a sure-enough Truth. Might be safer to just flip
coins to decide future policy initiatives. At least
the coins aren't unconsciously biased ...

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 02:14:54 +0200
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Mon, 6 Sep 2021 00:14 UTC

On 06/09/2021 01.34, SixOverFive wrote:
> On 9/5/21 4:35 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

....

>> One may do a 5 minute hack to prove a principle and get some code
>> working, but *if* it is going to be replicated or maintained by others
>> it behoves one to rework it into whatever is expected by e.g. other
>> engineers, installation scripts and the like.
>>
>> On the other hand, if it is *not*, so what? Typically embedded systems
>> that are neither subject to maintenance or upgrade can so whatever
>> they like.
>>
>> Faced with lack of space in a 2K EPROM, I replaced all instances of
>> POP AX
>> POP BX
>> POP CX
>> POP DX
>> RET
>>
>> with
>> JMP STDEXIT
>>
>>
>> STDEXIT:
>> POP AX
>> POP BX
>> POP CX
>> POP DX
>> RET
>>
>> and gained the 64 bytes of PROM space I needed to include an extended
>> BIOS.
>
>   So long as there aren't multiple threads going on you CAN
>   just clean up in one spot. If the eeprom was 2k this was
>   probably WAY before multithreading. The single-location
>   thing might also be vulnerable to some race conditions.
>   I'd worry if there were interrupt routines happening too.
>
>> I am sure those who are imbued with 'never use a goto' would be
>> horrified. But it worked, the customer got his extended bios without
>> having to change his bios and I got paid. And really, as we used to
>> say, in the end its all 'bits, in silicon.
>
>   "GOTO" can be GREAT. They're not "elegant" and can indeed
>   lead to SERIOUS spaghetti code, but sometimes they're the
>   best, most economical, easiest to write solution. Unwrapping
>   multi-nested whiles/fors/do loops in the 'elegant' fashion
>   can actually get rather un-elegant.
> ,
>   I always liked Pascal because it COULD be "elegant", and far
>   more self-documenting than the crap 'C' some hotshots would
>   write that was mostly punctuation characters that actually DID
>   stuff but nobody - not even the author a month from then -
>   could figure out HOW. Just did a little utility pgm with a
>   GUI front-end for somebody last month and used Lazarus/FP
>   because it's quick and easy and has the Pascal virtues, so
>   Pascal is hardly some decades-past thing for me. But, some
>   Pascals DO have a GOTO <label> in there, just in case :-)

Indeed, Pascal does have a "goto", and I read about it in Nicklaus Wirth
book no less.

>
>   Remember a thing called a Psion Organizer ? I think they came
>   out in the mid/late 80s. Looked like a thick pocket calculator
>   and had a 2 or 4 line LCD text screen. Various plug-in
>   cartridges could be had, including non-volatile memory.
>   Had a ROM BASIC in them that could cover most anything including
>   serial communications.
>
>   Someone wanted me to write a pgm for them that handled
>   fairly static traveled routes - like a mail carrier
>   might do. Each stop was a little block and you had to
>   fill in some questions. The "elegant" way THEN was to
>   make very good use of GOTOs. I wrote the thing "ladder
>   style" and you could push a function key to jump back
>   a question, or the previous block or the next block.
>   All GOTOs. In THAT case the GOTOs and structure made
>   the whole pgm far easier to understand and quite compact.
>   The route particulars were on a plug-in and, when there
>   were any changes, staff would update the list and hand
>   out new cartridges. Far more "sneaker-net" back then.
>   I did rig it so you could sync over serial, but mostly
>   they found it simpler to just swap cartridges.
>
>   I recently found out that at least some workers were
>   still using the system almost 15 years later ... I'd
>   have never expected that. They had the devices, the pgm
>   worked, so why spend more $$$ ?

Certainly, gotos have their place. Spaghetti code is something else.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 08:43:01 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Mon, 6 Sep 2021 07:43 UTC

On 06/09/2021 00:34, SixOverFive wrote:
> more self-documenting than the crap 'C' some hotshots would
>   write that was mostly punctuation characters that actually DID
>   stuff but nobody - not

The problem is that a language does not turn a bad programmer into a
good one.

It just changes the type of mistakes he makes

--
Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
Mark Twain

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 08:45:39 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Mon, 6 Sep 2021 07:45 UTC

On 06/09/2021 00:34, SixOverFive wrote:
> On 9/5/21 4:35 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>>
>> Faced with lack of space in a 2K EPROM, I replaced all instances of
>> POP AX
>> POP BX
>> POP CX
>> POP DX
>> RET
>>
>> with
>> JMP STDEXIT
>>
>>
>> STDEXIT:
>> POP AX
>> POP BX
>> POP CX
>> POP DX
>> RET
>>
>> and gained the 64 bytes of PROM space I needed to include an extended
>> BIOS.
>
>   So long as there aren't multiple threads going on you CAN
>   just clean up in one spot. If the eeprom was 2k this was
>   probably WAY before multithreading. The single-location
>   thing might also be vulnerable to some race conditions.
>   I'd worry if there were interrupt routines happening too.

That code is thread proof

it does not alter memory, only the state of the CPU

Of course there were interrupts. This was a PC BIOS.

--
“Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

Dennis Miller

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid (Tauno Voipio)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 11:08:42 +0300
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 by: Tauno Voipio - Mon, 6 Sep 2021 08:08 UTC

On 5.9.2021 11:35 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 04/09/2021 18:47, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 04-09-2021, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> a écrit :
>>>
>>>     SOMETIMES though, you can CHEAT. Change the properties of
>>>     your symlink so even root can't edit/change/replace it.
>>>     The installer may bitch, but SO WHAT.
>>
>> Cheating on your installer can't be a good advice. If you don't like
>> what it does, use another installer, install everything manually,
>> whatever. But cheating is the better way to have an unstable system
>> without being able to understand why at some point.
>>
>> You do what you want on your computer: I don't care, it's your computer.
>> But pretending others should do the same is just plain wrong.
>>
> You are really simply echoing te dichotomy between a personal computer,
> which does what *I* want, and a corporate system, which has to do what
> your *employer* wants, subject to maintainability and reliability and
> security constraints.
>
> I would suggest that they are neither te same case, nor indicate the
> same solutions.
>
>
> One may do a 5 minute hack to prove a principle and get some code
> working, but *if* it is going to be replicated or maintained by others
> it behoves one to rework it into whatever is expected by e.g. other
> engineers, installation scripts and the like.
>
> On the other hand, if it is *not*, so what? Typically embedded systems
> that are neither subject to maintenance or upgrade can so whatever they
> like.
>
> Faced with lack of space in a 2K EPROM, I replaced all instances of
> POP AX
> POP BX
> POP CX
> POP DX
> RET
>
> with
> JMP STDEXIT
>
>
> STDEXIT:
> POP AX
> POP BX
> POP CX
> POP DX
> RET
>
> and gained the 64 bytes of PROM space I needed to include an extended BIOS.
>
> I am sure those who are imbued with 'never use a goto' would be
> horrified. But it worked, the customer got his extended bios without
> having to change his bios and I got paid. And really, as we used to say,
> in the end its all 'bits, in silicon'.
>

It is a method called 'tail-ending' in compilers. Any reasonably recent
version of the GNU GCC is able to do it without programmer assistance,
except selecting high enough optimization levele when compiling.

--

TV

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 09:24:38 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Mon, 6 Sep 2021 08:24 UTC

On 06/09/2021 09:08, Tauno Voipio wrote:
> On 5.9.2021 11:35 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 04/09/2021 18:47, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>> Le 04-09-2021, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>     SOMETIMES though, you can CHEAT. Change the properties of
>>>>     your symlink so even root can't edit/change/replace it.
>>>>     The installer may bitch, but SO WHAT.
>>>
>>> Cheating on your installer can't be a good advice. If you don't like
>>> what it does, use another installer, install everything manually,
>>> whatever. But cheating is the better way to have an unstable system
>>> without being able to understand why at some point.
>>>
>>> You do what you want on your computer: I don't care, it's your computer.
>>> But pretending others should do the same is just plain wrong.
>>>
>> You are really simply echoing te dichotomy between a personal
>> computer, which does what *I* want, and a corporate system, which has
>> to do what your *employer* wants, subject to maintainability and
>> reliability and security constraints.
>>
>> I would suggest that they are neither te same case, nor indicate the
>> same solutions.
>>
>>
>> One may do a 5 minute hack to prove a principle and get some code
>> working, but *if* it is going to be replicated or maintained by others
>> it behoves one to rework it into whatever is expected by e.g. other
>> engineers, installation scripts and the like.
>>
>> On the other hand, if it is *not*, so what? Typically embedded systems
>> that are neither subject to maintenance or upgrade can so whatever
>> they like.
>>
>> Faced with lack of space in a 2K EPROM, I replaced all instances of
>> POP AX
>> POP BX
>> POP CX
>> POP DX
>> RET
>>
>> with
>> JMP STDEXIT
>>
>>
>> STDEXIT:
>> POP AX
>> POP BX
>> POP CX
>> POP DX
>> RET
>>
>> and gained the 64 bytes of PROM space I needed to include an extended
>> BIOS.
>>
>> I am sure those who are imbued with 'never use a goto' would be
>> horrified. But it worked, the customer got his extended bios without
>> having to change his bios and I got paid. And really, as we used to
>> say, in the end its all 'bits, in silicon'.
>>
>
> It is a method called 'tail-ending' in compilers. Any reasonably recent
> version of the GNU GCC is able to do it without programmer assistance,
> except selecting high enough optimization levele when compiling.
>
I am sure that optimizing for size would use something like that. It is
fractionally *slower*

--
“when things get difficult you just have to lie”

― Jean Claud Jüncker

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid (Tauno Voipio)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 12:38:04 +0300
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 by: Tauno Voipio - Mon, 6 Sep 2021 09:38 UTC

On 6.9.2021 11:24 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 06/09/2021 09:08, Tauno Voipio wrote:
>> On 5.9.2021 11:35 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 04/09/2021 18:47, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>>> Le 04-09-2021, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>     SOMETIMES though, you can CHEAT. Change the properties of
>>>>>     your symlink so even root can't edit/change/replace it.
>>>>>     The installer may bitch, but SO WHAT.
>>>>
>>>> Cheating on your installer can't be a good advice. If you don't like
>>>> what it does, use another installer, install everything manually,
>>>> whatever. But cheating is the better way to have an unstable system
>>>> without being able to understand why at some point.
>>>>
>>>> You do what you want on your computer: I don't care, it's your
>>>> computer.
>>>> But pretending others should do the same is just plain wrong.
>>>>
>>> You are really simply echoing te dichotomy between a personal
>>> computer, which does what *I* want, and a corporate system, which has
>>> to do what your *employer* wants, subject to maintainability and
>>> reliability and security constraints.
>>>
>>> I would suggest that they are neither te same case, nor indicate the
>>> same solutions.
>>>
>>>
>>> One may do a 5 minute hack to prove a principle and get some code
>>> working, but *if* it is going to be replicated or maintained by
>>> others it behoves one to rework it into whatever is expected by e.g.
>>> other engineers, installation scripts and the like.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, if it is *not*, so what? Typically embedded
>>> systems that are neither subject to maintenance or upgrade can so
>>> whatever they like.
>>>
>>> Faced with lack of space in a 2K EPROM, I replaced all instances of
>>> POP AX
>>> POP BX
>>> POP CX
>>> POP DX
>>> RET
>>>
>>> with
>>> JMP STDEXIT
>>>
>>>
>>> STDEXIT:
>>> POP AX
>>> POP BX
>>> POP CX
>>> POP DX
>>> RET
>>>
>>> and gained the 64 bytes of PROM space I needed to include an extended
>>> BIOS.
>>>
>>> I am sure those who are imbued with 'never use a goto' would be
>>> horrified. But it worked, the customer got his extended bios without
>>> having to change his bios and I got paid. And really, as we used to
>>> say, in the end its all 'bits, in silicon'.
>>>
>>
>> It is a method called 'tail-ending' in compilers. Any reasonably recent
>> version of the GNU GCC is able to do it without programmer assistance,
>> except selecting high enough optimization levele when compiling.
>>
> I am sure that optimizing for size would use something like that. It is
> fractionally *slower*

It does. The GCC switch is -Os. In practice the speed difference in not
noticeable.

--

-TV

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: invalid@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 11:39:03 +0100
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Mon, 6 Sep 2021 10:39 UTC

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
> On 06/09/2021 09:08, Tauno Voipio wrote:
>> It is a method called 'tail-ending' in compilers. Any reasonably recent
>> version of the GNU GCC is able to do it without programmer assistance,
>> except selecting high enough optimization levele when compiling.

As far as I can see from a superficial test, gcc 10.2.1 will perform
this optimization within a function but not across multiple functions.
The same goes for Clang 11.0.1.

> I am sure that optimizing for size would use something like that. It
> is fractionally *slower*

On a simple CPU, yes.

On a modern general-purpose CPU I’d expect that it would often lead to a
net performance improvement due to improved cache usage, outside of
uninteresting cases where the shared tail only executes once.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 12:21:51 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Mon, 6 Sep 2021 11:21 UTC

On 06/09/2021 10:38, Tauno Voipio wrote:
> In practice the speed difference in not
> noticeable.
That depends entirely on what you are doing!

--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

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