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computers / comp.os.linux.misc / Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

SubjectAuthor
* HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxEli the Bearded
|`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
| +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
| |`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
| | +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
| | |`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
| | | `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
| | |  `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
| | |   `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
| | `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxCharlie Gibbs
| `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxjak
+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
|`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
| `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
|  `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
|+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxTauno Voipio
||`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
|| `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  |+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxBobbie Sellers
||  ||`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  || +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  || |`- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  || `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  ||  `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  ||   +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  ||   |`- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  ||   `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxCharlie Gibbs
||  ||    `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  ||     `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxCharlie Gibbs
||  ||      `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  ||       `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxCharlie Gibbs
||  ||        `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  | `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  |  `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAllodoxaphobia
||  |   `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |    `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  |     `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |      `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  |       +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxRoger Blake
||  |       |`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxpH
||  |       | `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |       `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |        +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  |        |+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxBobbie Sellers
||  |        ||`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  |        || `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |        ||  +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  |        ||  |`- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |        ||  `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  |        ||   `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |        |`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |        | +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxScott Lurndal
||  |        | |`- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAhem A Rivet's Shot
||  |        | +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxJ. Clarke
||  |        | |+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAhem A Rivet's Shot
||  |        | ||`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxPeter Flass
||  |        | || `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxJ. Clarke
||  |        | ||  `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |        | ||   `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  |        | ||    +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxDennis Boone
||  |        | ||    |`- Re: real programmers, was HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxJohn Levine
||  |        | ||    +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxDavid W. Hodgins
||  |        | ||    |+- Re: fine old languages, HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxJohn Levine
||  |        | ||    |+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |        | ||    ||`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxCharlie Gibbs
||  |        | ||    || `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxDan Espen
||  |        | ||    ||  `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxJ. Clarke
||  |        | ||    ||   `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxCharlie Gibbs
||  |        | ||    |`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  |        | ||    | +- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxDavid W. Hodgins
||  |        | ||    | `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxRich Alderson
||  |        | ||    `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxJerry Peters
||  |        | |`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |        | | +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  |        | | |+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAhem A Rivet's Shot
||  |        | | ||+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  |        | | |||`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxgareth evans
||  |        | | ||| `* OT : Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxgareth evans
||  |        | | |||  `- Re: OT : Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  |        | | ||`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxCharlie Gibbs
||  |        | | || `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAhem A Rivet's Shot
||  |        | | |+- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxStéphane CARPENTIER
||  |        | | |`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxJ. Clarke
||  |        | | | `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |        | | |  `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxJ. Clarke
||  |        | | |   `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAhem A Rivet's Shot
||  |        | | `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  |        | +- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxQuestor
||  |        | `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  |        `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAnssi Saari
||  |         `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |          `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAnssi Saari
||  |           +- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  |           `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxTauno Voipio
||  |            +- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |            `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |             +- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  |             `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxTauno Voipio
||  `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
|`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAragorn
`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxCharlie Gibbs

Pages:12345
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

<877dg5y20j.fsf@usenet.ankman.de>

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From: ank@spamfence.net (Andreas Kohlbach)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 12:20:28 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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X-Face-What-Is-It: Capture Bee from Galaga
 by: Andreas Kohlbach - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 16:20 UTC

On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 09:40:37 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> On 27/08/2021 18:22, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 02:58:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>> On 27/08/2021 02:06, SixOverFive wrote:
>>>
>>> Files as such were a bit of a new fangled luxury :-)
>>>
>>>>   This is useful information.
>>>>   The young people do not realize how CP/M was *the*
>>>>   "business system" for quite a long time. Mass quantities
>>>>   of biz/science software was written for it.
>>> First micro word processors and (among the first)
>>> spreadsheets. Accounting software too.
>> Wasn't VISICALC the first commercial successful spreadsheet, which
>> (first) only ran on an Apple ][? That was the first "killer app". Some
>> people bought an Apple ][, only to have access to a spreadsheet! Crazy
>> times.
>>
> Cue why I said 'among the first' spreadsheets. Yes, visicalc was the
> killer app on Apple II and Quark Xpress with Photoshop was the killer
> app on MacOS 9

I didn't question that. :-)

> Supercalc was the CP/M clone.
>
> With Wordstar and Supercalc and a dot matrix printer, you were in
> business on two floppy drives - one for programs, one for data,

That was what Adam Osborn knew and put into reality.

I think the first word processor was Electronic Pencil. "Everything" after
are a clones. ;-)

<https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/2018/03/history-of-wordprocessors-and-spread.html>

[...]
--
Andreas

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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From: trepidation@example.net (Allodoxaphobia)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Date: 29 Aug 2021 00:55:57 GMT
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 by: Allodoxaphobia - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 00:55 UTC

On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 12:20:28 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 09:40:37 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>> With Wordstar and Supercalc and a dot matrix printer, you were in
>> business on two floppy drives - one for programs, one for data,
>
> I think the first word processor was Electronic Pencil.
> "Everything" after are a clones. ;-)

heh...
I still have WordStar 6.0 running in DosBox on my Ubuntu system.
I have it running both for a curiosity exercise and for the ability
to print some old, specially crafted PCL files.

I'll see if I can drag it along to its half-century mark...

Jonesy
--
Marvin L Jones | Marvin | W3DHJ.net | linux
38.238N 104.547W | @ jonz.net | Jonesy | FreeBSD
* Killfiling google & XXXXbanter.com: jonz.net/ng.htm

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SixOverFive)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 00:21:31 -0400
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 by: SixOverFive - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 04:21 UTC

On 08/28/2021 05:16 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 28/08/2021 06:48, SixOverFive wrote:
>> Things advance, step by step.
>>
>> Though sometimes they advance towards a cliff ...
>>
>> And sometimes they advance in reverse ... the current
>> trend to revive the old client/server computing model
>> for easier exploitation/stealing/surveillance/control
>> is an example.
>
> You have to see it from the other angle, as I did running companies.
>
> When you had a mainframe. with serial terminals, if one user had a
> problem it was with a cheap terminal or a cable
>
> If everyone had a problem, it was with the one actual computer. You got
> in your supplier, and they sorted it. There was only one set of programs
> running on it, they were clearly understood and documented, and you went
> on a training course to learn how to uses them.
>
> Move to the world of the Personal Computer, and offices became a total
> nightmare, with people loading anything and everything on their
> computers, including viruses and porn, and pirate copes of this that and
> the other, that the reliability took a dive while the cost of keeping it
> all running soared onto the stratosphere.
>
> And didn't start to come down until centrally managed cloud based apps
> appeared that merely demanded the users ran IE6 or something.
>
> If you are working in a commercial environment it is so much easier and
> cheaper to maintain one central copy of code that everyone uses. One set
> of properly backed up data and so on.
>
> All the personal computer did was allow far more processing power into
> the hands of users. For something like graphics and media creation and
> edition, or running CAD CAM software this was indispensable, and of
> course for home us it meant games, but really it clobbered support
> completely.
>
> Most people are far far happier on their cloudy StupidPhones™ and
> TotalPills™ (tablets) plugged into cloud apps than they are reinstalling
> SUSE linux on a hard drive.
>
> You and I are not, but we are the exception, not the rule.
>
> Decent networking speeds have removed the need for local processing
> power to a very large extent. It is far more cost effective to go back
> to the 'client server timesharing charge for access to my app' model
> where data and support is centralised, than to run distributed code.
>
> I don't see it as a retrograde step at all. It is simply that the
> balance between processor power and networks speeds has drastically
> changed. And the fact that this re centralisation of data, which should
> make it more secure from accidental loss, and lower maintenance costs,
> also makes it more vulnerable to malicious abuse, is just the way that
> particular cookie crumbles.
>
> Instead of trusting your own sysadmin, you have to trust AmazonAWS
> sysadmins instead.
>
> From the perspective of extremely IT literate people, we see the
> potential hazards, but unless you have been involved in setting up and
> running commercial software systems, you wont easily see the flip side
> of the coin.
Try using/developing-for ArcGIS.

Everybody who does is pining horribly for the i15 12ghz
dodecacore and a multi-teraflop Nvidia card. The need for
local power has NOT gone away.

In any case, "making it work" has become less of a problem
these days. The $$$ issue is data theft/surveillance/micro-
management.

THIS is The Problem nowadays - and it's a BAD, EVIL, problem.

So, I'm going to take the exact opposite position. Power To
The People - screw the Big Boyz.

In short, I see that "flip side" as a $$$/Stasi-motivated
LIE. Any lie can be sold, of course. There are ALWAYS
endless "good reasons" for central control/monitoring.

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SixOverFive)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 01:08:48 -0400
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 by: SixOverFive - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 05:08 UTC

On 08/28/2021 12:11 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 01:22:43 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>>
>> I actually wrote some practical software on an Osbourne "portable".
>> A mix of 'C' and assembler - my only real experience with CP/M Z80.
>> Oh well, they paid pretty good ...
>
> Does this software still exist?

Shit NO ! That was WAY Back In The Day and they
were convinced DOS was just Flash-In-The-Pan fad.
CP/M Forever And Always !

Besides, the contract stated that they, or their
heirs/creditors, owned the source. Haven't you
ever done contract work ? Couldn't publish it
if I wanted to - SOMEONE would sue. Everybody
is looking for an excuse these days - even the
nekked swimming baby on the Nirvana cover is
trying to sue, claims it was 'child pornography'.
Beats working for a living I guess.

> Never had any (now vintage) hardware other than a Commodore 64 and
> Amiga. But thanks to emulation I can catch up with the past on machines I
> never owned but were a big part of the late 70s/early 80s (micro)
> computer revolution.

Emulators ARE great - and very smart software.

But it's not QUITE like the bad old days. There were
no gigahertz processors back then, no gigabyte RAM
backing things up. You had what you had and had to
push it to the max.

> For the Osborne I found their "Office Suite" on Bitsavers or Archive.org
> so can play with it. Nice to be able to run some of the first word
> processors and spreadsheets.

"Electric Pencil" and such ... not to mention VisiCalc.

GOOD, very VERY good, programmers back in the day. What
they could squeeze out of an 8-bit universe was extremely
impressive. I was never more than a "fair" programmer,
came along a few years late, had to live in their shadow.
However there was (is) a niche for specialty software.
The commercial stuff still may not be up to YOUR exact
need.

Oh, looking at all this old stuff, I found "EDLIN" - a
program even WORSE than 'vi'. I hated it SO much that
I wrote the equivalent of NotePad instead, in 86
assembler, for one client mostly so I wouldn't go nuts.
The old-tyme IBM/BIOS routines were extensive and you
could accomplish a lot in a little code by using them.

> Also uploaded my clumsy attempts to write a text and doing some "table
> calculations" on Youtube.

"Table calculations" can be hard, or easy - depending
on how you set up your data structures. Too often when
you begin a program you're not entirely sure how to
set things up ... and then you get stuck with the
imperfect structure because you've already invested
so much time/code in in.

Awhile back I was working on dealing with records from
and old PICK-like multi-value database - ascii records
with ascii field/subfield/subsubfield/etc delimters.
Some dataloggers still use such records because they
are easy to build-up in-line. READING them is very
easy, but I discovered EDITING them was a nightmare.
If you go TOO "generic" the special cases will lead
to huge fat UGLY code. Is a field still a field if
it's also broken into sub-fields ? It's too often a
matter of how what you THINK it's supposed to be.
Deal with the beginning/endings of ascii strings ...
and so on. A pain in the ass even with Python
string-slicing and even worse in 'C'.

Something like VisiCalc was a major excercise in "table
calculations". Fit it all in 64kb too !

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SixOverFive)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 01:32:36 -0400
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 by: SixOverFive - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 05:32 UTC

On 08/26/2021 09:08 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 27/08/2021 01:36, SixOverFive wrote:
>> On 08/26/2021 05:03 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 26/08/2021 05:34, SixOverFive wrote:
>>>> Gotta
>>>> find something cool to write for CP/M-86
>>>
>>> TCP/IP stack?
>>
>>    It can be done on an Arduino (probably easier
>>    on the Mega with more RAM). They DO make a
>>    network card, you CAN implement a (very VERY
>>    slow) web page. So, it can be done in DOS
>>    and even CP/M for sure.
>
> TCP/IP stacks existed in DOS back in the day. Used to sell them...
> No sure you would get one for a z80 running CP/M though - ISTR the
> smallest was around 45Kbytes

A number of Z80 boards were set up to handle at
least one extra 64kb page of memory. It was a
clunky, sometimes proprietary, paging system.

Early DOS/86 wasn't much better. It's why the
68000 series drew so many fans with its "flat"
memory space.

Anyway, a TCP stack could be done in DOS, with its
64kb pages, and therefore in CP/M-80/86.

But, I'm not going to TRY it at this time :-)

For now I want my retro-computing to be FUN, not
hard WORK. Recently acquired an Apple 2-E with
dual drives. It DOES boot. Just wondering what
to DO with it.

I can't help but wonder if there may still be valid
uses for some of these 'antique' systems. They were
SO simple/unconnected that there was often no good way
to hack them - yet they were a lot easier than super-
dedicated assembler programming. Machine-control systems
maybe, traffic-control, embedded, voting-machines ... ?

It's why Intel put MINIX micro-machines inside their
chips - but that was a BAD choice. If the Intel boyz
could get at them then so could anyone else. And
they DID.

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SixOverFive)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 02:08:55 -0400
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 by: SixOverFive - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 06:08 UTC

On 08/28/2021 04:53 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 28/08/2021 06:22, SixOverFive wrote:
>>
>>> bliss - 'Nearly any fool can use a Linux computer. Many do.' After
>>> all here I am...
>>
>>    Even early Linux was "advanced" over the CP/M and even DOS worlds.
>>
>>    Some DID sell UNIX for the early PCs though - but the PRICE was
>>    ridiculous. Santa-Cruz Operation Unix ... I remember now.
>
> When you have seen and helped maintain one 386 PC running SCO unix with
> 30 serial terminals wired to it, run an entire company including
> spreadsheet, word processing database and accounts, you wouldnt baulk at
> the price.

I'm sure it DID have its uses, was VERY tempted in fact ...

However my client at the time did NOT like the up-front
costs - and only had about ten employees that would use it.
The cost/benefit ratio wasn't good enough.

Sometimes the opposite approach worked better for smaller
operations. I did work for a doctor who was paying $1000
80's bucks a months to some ultra-geek who ran a datacenter
in the building. Apparently a proprietary DB and accounting
system - can't knock his skills - but it was ALWAYS quirky
and he wouldn't actually TALK to anyone. You had to write
your issues and put them in the mail slot in the door,
really. They were sick and tired of serial terminals and
being hostage. SO, I climbed through the ceiling (I was
young back then) and set them up with LANTASTIC and
early versions of PeachTree accounting and Access. They
felt so liberated - and only had to pay me once in
awhile. It was all DOS/Win3/Win95 in that timeframe.

> To replace that - generally kept going by one person in the firm or an
> occasional visit from elsewhere -  by 35 PCS, novell netware, flaky
> coaxial Ethernet, and a full time support person, pushed the cost per
> desktop up 10x.

Oh yea, I remember NetWare ... EXPENSIVE. That's why I
jumped on LanTastic. EVENTUALLY the coax network cables
went away ...

>
> I was quoted the cost of running a Windows desktop in the city of London
> as £3500 per annum, - capital and depreciation, software licenses
> training and IT staff.
>
> Bill Gates pushed the cost of computing through the ROOF.

Well, he IS in it for the money after all ...

> I vividly remember being involved in a very minor way with the upgrade
> of a glue covered IBM system 38 running 10 terminal in a bookbinding
> factory, to a PC running AIX 'because we want to run the same COBOL code
> that has worked so well for the last 20 years'

You'd be surprised. I know a guy who went to work for
a govt org just five years back. He had to learn
COBOL because they had some big COBOL programs that
organized everything and were NOT going to pay to have
it all re-written. Cheaper to re-program the employees.
The wealth of the 60s has been replaced by the more
Spartan realities of the 21st century.

I was never involved in big-city-scale stuff, and it's
probably a good thing. My niche was always specialty
software (and some hardware). Sometimes nobody/nothing
does exactly what you want, so ...

>>
>>    Anyway, I'll be trying out my Aztec-C on the CP/M-86 soon now.
>>    Aztec was, as I remember, a pretty decent app back in the day.
>>    The manual is loaded with ASM examples ... they really wanted
>>    you to know what the compiler generated. In-Line assembler was
>>    also possible. A relic of a real Hack-It-Together past.
>>
>>    But it was SO fun !
> Aztec was indeed pretty decent.

I remembered the name from the Old Days. It was
an expensive compiler, but did pretty much anything
you could imagine. MS eventually killed it.

> I taught myself 'C' using the BDS (Brain Dead Software) compiler - it
> wasn't very good at all - simply didn't understand complex statements -
> and a z80 wasnt very good at using the deafult integer types - it
> preferred 8 bits, but nevertheless it all could be made to work.

Well, that was part of the FUN - bashing the things
into doing what YOU wanted :-)

I mostly learned from IBM-C, a little from an old PDP-11
system. Edit, compile, link, repeat, repeat, repeat.
Even Turbo-C was a massive improvement. Then there was
a lot of PIC microcontroller work - mostly RISC ASM.
Did you know some of those things couldn't subtract ?
You had to use overflow addition ...

> Then onwards and upwards to MSDOS  DR and IIRC MS C compilers.

Well, I GUESS it's "upwards" .... but sometimes I'm
not so sure. A bulldozer is usually "upwards", but
a ten-buck shovel always WORKS.

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
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 by: Andreas Kohlbach - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 08:01 UTC

On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 01:08:48 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>
> On 08/28/2021 12:11 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 01:22:43 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I actually wrote some practical software on an Osbourne "portable".
>>> A mix of 'C' and assembler - my only real experience with CP/M Z80.
>>> Oh well, they paid pretty good ...
>> Does this software still exist?
>
> Shit NO ! That was WAY Back In The Day and they
> were convinced DOS was just Flash-In-The-Pan fad.
> CP/M Forever And Always !
>
> Besides, the contract stated that they, or their
> heirs/creditors, owned the source. Haven't you
> ever done contract work ? Couldn't publish it
> if I wanted to - SOMEONE would sue. Everybody
> is looking for an excuse these days - even the
> nekked swimming baby on the Nirvana cover is
> trying to sue, claims it was 'child pornography'.
> Beats working for a living I guess.

Yes, but some software became "abandonware". Thus I assumed the software
you wrote (and most importantly the company you did it for) is long out
of business, thus no one would claim a copyright, as it seems to be the
case for Wordstar by MicroPro International. MicroPro seems o longer to
exist; there is not even a Wikipedia page for them.

>> Never had any (now vintage) hardware other than a Commodore 64 and
>> Amiga. But thanks to emulation I can catch up with the past on machines I
>> never owned but were a big part of the late 70s/early 80s (micro)
>> computer revolution.
>
> Emulators ARE great - and very smart software.
>
> But it's not QUITE like the bad old days. There were
> no gigahertz processors back then, no gigabyte RAM
> backing things up. You had what you had and had to
> push it to the max.

Emulators limit the speed to the original machine. Not like a C64 emulated
runs at +1000 times the speed of its 6510 (6502) of around 1 MHz modern
CPUs run today. Emulators are the closest thing you can get today not
owning the original hardware.

[...]
--
Andreas

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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From: cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
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Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
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 by: Charlie Gibbs - Mon, 30 Aug 2021 00:51 UTC

On 2021-08-29, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:

> "Table calculations" can be hard, or easy - depending
> on how you set up your data structures. Too often when
> you begin a program you're not entirely sure how to
> set things up ... and then you get stuck with the
> imperfect structure because you've already invested
> so much time/code in in.

"If at first you don't succeed, you might as well forget it."

That's why I agonize over design so much before I cast things
in concrete. My translation of the above saying is:

Consider your every move to be irrevocable.
It usually is, whether you realize it or not.

That's not to say I won't bust my ass evolving my work into
something more reasonable once I figure out what really needs
to be done - if that's at all possible.

If all else fails, you can always re-write it.
As another old saying goes:

There's never time to do it right,
but always time to do it over.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 22:32:43 -0500
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SixOverFive)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 23:32:42 -0400
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 by: SixOverFive - Mon, 30 Aug 2021 03:32 UTC

On 08/29/2021 04:01 AM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 01:08:48 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>>
>> On 08/28/2021 12:11 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 01:22:43 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I actually wrote some practical software on an Osbourne "portable".
>>>> A mix of 'C' and assembler - my only real experience with CP/M Z80.
>>>> Oh well, they paid pretty good ...
>>> Does this software still exist?
>>
>> Shit NO ! That was WAY Back In The Day and they
>> were convinced DOS was just Flash-In-The-Pan fad.
>> CP/M Forever And Always !
>>
>> Besides, the contract stated that they, or their
>> heirs/creditors, owned the source. Haven't you
>> ever done contract work ? Couldn't publish it
>> if I wanted to - SOMEONE would sue. Everybody
>> is looking for an excuse these days - even the
>> nekked swimming baby on the Nirvana cover is
>> trying to sue, claims it was 'child pornography'.
>> Beats working for a living I guess.
>
> Yes, but some software became "abandonware". Thus I assumed the software
> you wrote (and most importantly the company you did it for) is long out
> of business, thus no one would claim a copyright, as it seems to be the
> case for Wordstar by MicroPro International. MicroPro seems o longer to
> exist; there is not even a Wikipedia page for them.

Won't risk it. Besides, I'm pretty sure I don't have
a copy anymore. If there is one at the bottom of the
stack it's on a 5 1/4 SS/SD floppy formatted in
the CP/M-80 fashion. Fortunately I only had the briefest
experiences with the 8" floppies.

>>> Never had any (now vintage) hardware other than a Commodore 64 and
>>> Amiga. But thanks to emulation I can catch up with the past on machines I
>>> never owned but were a big part of the late 70s/early 80s (micro)
>>> computer revolution.
>>
>> Emulators ARE great - and very smart software.
>>
>> But it's not QUITE like the bad old days. There were
>> no gigahertz processors back then, no gigabyte RAM
>> backing things up. You had what you had and had to
>> push it to the max.
>
> Emulators limit the speed to the original machine. Not like a C64 emulated
> runs at +1000 times the speed of its 6510 (6502) of around 1 MHz modern
> CPUs run today. Emulators are the closest thing you can get today not
> owning the original hardware.
>
> [...]

It IS for sale ... but at a $$$

And you'd better replace ALL the old capacitors or
you'll have magic smoke escaping everywhere when
you power it up.

Another issue with a lot of the old CPU units is
that is pretty much ALL they were. A huge amount
was farmed-out to semi-intelligent add-on devices.
The CPU simply "managed" them. So, you can buy
a PDP-11 box, but it won't DO much. Gotta have
a bunch of add-on boxes/boards too. Microprocessor
chips have spoiled us.

Find some pix of IBM 360 setups. The box with the
neat lights and switches was the CPU, but next to
it would be about a meter-cube box - that was the
memory, a few K of magnetic core RAM. The 360s CPU
box was packed with boards with zillions of metallic
chips on them - but they weren't actually 'chips' in
the modern meaning. Pry one open and you'd find a
discrete transistor, maybe with a diode or a few
resistors inside. They were discrete logic gates,
ANDs/ORs/INVERTERS/etc. The 'cpu' was the sum total
of all those. Got us to the moon ...

Once came across a pic of a guy with too much time
on his hands - he built a Z-80 out of discrete
components. Used up three whole walls in his house.

Somewhere in this thread I was talking about having
to use a serial port to get data in/out of the VM -
and how I was fresh out of TTY terminals. This is
too often the case with old computer hardware, you
can find some, but not all, of the necessary parts
to actually make them DO anything.

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 23:06:36 -0500
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
References: <1vGdnQotD_JChLr8nZ2dnUU7-L3NnZ2d@earthlink.com> <874kbc18bn.fsf@usenet.ankman.de> <sg8gn8$78h$1@dont-email.me> <LZmdnU0zIfsmp7X8nZ2dnUU7-L_NnZ2d@earthlink.com> <sg9grd$n4i$1@dont-email.me> <87wno6yf89.fsf@usenet.ankman.de> <sgbanq$o8m$1@dont-email.me> <m6CdnZ3vy6C5VbT8nZ2dnUU7-NnNnZ2d@earthlink.com> <87a6l1y2fz.fsf@usenet.ankman.de> <yMadnUAxcLv_i7b8nZ2dnUU7-U_NnZ2d@earthlink.com> <sgha270160i@news2.newsguy.com>
From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SixOverFive)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 00:06:35 -0400
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 by: SixOverFive - Mon, 30 Aug 2021 04:06 UTC

On 08/29/2021 08:51 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2021-08-29, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>
>> "Table calculations" can be hard, or easy - depending
>> on how you set up your data structures. Too often when
>> you begin a program you're not entirely sure how to
>> set things up ... and then you get stuck with the
>> imperfect structure because you've already invested
>> so much time/code in in.
>
> "If at first you don't succeed, you might as well forget it."

Sometimes that IS the case. However if you're young
and don't need sleep or food, sometimes you just
start from scratch again, or again, assuming the
boss is clueless as to what you're busy with.

>
> That's why I agonize over design so much before I cast things
> in concrete. My translation of the above saying is:

There IS value in trying to think it all through
before you write the first line of code. Alas the
real world environment doesn't always give you
the time, you just have to go for it. Also, it's
a lot more FUN ..

Now in the 50s/60s the butch-cut Dilberts in their
white shirts, little black ties and pocket-protectors
DID rule the computing universe. Every program was
a MAJOR PROJECT and they'd plan it all out in detail
like a precision military campaign. Computers were
ungodly expensive and relatively few - and getting
software writ was also very expensive. They DID turn
out good software, no question, some is STILL in use
by big orgs.

However the microprocessor changed all that. Now you
suddenly had weirdo geeks taking the lead. The start
of so much software we're still using often was the
product of mostly ONE geek living in a basement. They
"just went for it". A change in the hardware environment
spawned a change in the "programmer" demographic.

I'll split 50/50 here. Thinking-through does save a lot
of time and generally results in superior software that
will stand the test of time. However The Plan can also
shove odd alternatives into the toilet, approaches that
might be very useful to many later on.

I once knew a guy who owned a small local computer shop
in the Atari/Commodore/RS era. One way he made extra money
was to write clones (often improved) of the popular
arcade games of the day for the 6809/6502 universe. Did
he write them in 'C' ? Nope. ASM ? Nope. He wrote them
in HEXADECIMAL/BINARY machine code - said it "gave him
a buzz" - and then burned them into eproms. He was a VERY
odd guy, like some 'hacker geek' from a movie. People
like him displaced the Dilberts.

> Consider your every move to be irrevocable.
> It usually is, whether you realize it or not.
>
> That's not to say I won't bust my ass evolving my work into
> something more reasonable once I figure out what really needs
> to be done - if that's at all possible.

It's a matter of the "investment". Sometimes you've just
gone too far in an imperfect direction and it's easier
to just cludge your existing code than to redesign from
scratch. I suspect Windows is an example ...

>
> If all else fails, you can always re-write it.
> As another old saying goes:
>
> There's never time to do it right,
> but always time to do it over.
>

Only if you live in Mom's basement.

In a pay-by-the-hour environment you CAN'T do it
over and over and over again.

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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From: cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Date: 30 Aug 2021 14:03:46 GMT
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 by: Charlie Gibbs - Mon, 30 Aug 2021 14:03 UTC

On 2021-08-30, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:

> On 08/29/2021 08:51 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> If all else fails, you can always re-write it.
>> As another old saying goes:
>>
>> There's never time to do it right,
>> but always time to do it over.
>
> Only if you live in Mom's basement.
>
> In a pay-by-the-hour environment you CAN'T do it
> over and over and over again.

Not over and over and over, perhaps. But given a
sufficiently crappy design, vague and/or conflicting
specs, and a steady stream of ill-conceived change
requests, the system will eventually fall apart,
at which time even the dumbest managers will realize
that a re-write is in order.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SixOverFive)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 01:25:33 -0400
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 by: SixOverFive - Tue, 31 Aug 2021 05:25 UTC

On 08/30/2021 10:03 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2021-08-30, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>
>> On 08/29/2021 08:51 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> If all else fails, you can always re-write it.
>>> As another old saying goes:
>>>
>>> There's never time to do it right,
>>> but always time to do it over.
>>
>> Only if you live in Mom's basement.
>>
>> In a pay-by-the-hour environment you CAN'T do it
>> over and over and over again.
>
> Not over and over and over, perhaps. But given a
> sufficiently crappy design, vague and/or conflicting
> specs, and a steady stream of ill-conceived change
> requests, the system will eventually fall apart,
> at which time even the dumbest managers will realize
> that a re-write is in order.

The Boss wants PRODUCT, PROFIT - and he/she/it
wants it NOW. Doesn't MATTER if it's a crappy
un-extensible un-supportable design, just has
to LOOK GOOD so the advertisers can SELL it.

And that's The Truth about far far more software
than you'd like to believe. Wonder how those
eastern-bloc teenagers keep getting into all
our stuff ? NOW you know why.

If you want GOOD software (and hardware) look
to the people who design NASA planetary probes.
Ultra-resistant to corruption, always ways to
get around damage. Those systems are a marvel.
They're also part of the reason those probes
COST so much and take a decade+ to design.

"Dilbert" is a LOT more true than most think.
The writer spend a long time at IBM and similar
houses until he just couldn't take the BS
anymore .....

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
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References: <1vGdnQotD_JChLr8nZ2dnUU7-L3NnZ2d@earthlink.com> <874kbc18bn.fsf@usenet.ankman.de> <sg8gn8$78h$1@dont-email.me> <LZmdnU0zIfsmp7X8nZ2dnUU7-L_NnZ2d@earthlink.com> <sg9grd$n4i$1@dont-email.me> <87wno6yf89.fsf@usenet.ankman.de> <sgcsq6$ovu$1@dont-email.me> <877dg5y20j.fsf@usenet.ankman.de> <slrnsilmof.12qs.trepidation@vps.jonz.net>
From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SixOverFive)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 01:58:53 -0400
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 by: SixOverFive - Tue, 31 Aug 2021 05:58 UTC

On 08/28/2021 08:55 PM, Allodoxaphobia wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 12:20:28 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 09:40:37 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>> With Wordstar and Supercalc and a dot matrix printer, you were in
>>> business on two floppy drives - one for programs, one for data,
>>
>> I think the first word processor was Electronic Pencil.
>> "Everything" after are a clones. ;-)
>
> heh...
> I still have WordStar 6.0 running in DosBox on my Ubuntu system.
> I have it running both for a curiosity exercise and for the ability
> to print some old, specially crafted PCL files.
>
> I'll see if I can drag it along to its half-century mark...

WordStar was OK ... basic, but GOT IT DONE. Just had
to learn those shortcut commands :-)

I used early Turbo Pascal a lot ... it used WordStar
shortcuts. Got used to them pretty quick.

And yes, you could use WordStar on a 2-disk, actually
one-disk, system. Full OS *and* a word processor all
in 360kb ! :-)

As far as I know, "Electric Pencil" WAS the first
"word processor" ... though it's more akin to the
later MS Notepad/Wordpad it was GREAT at the time.
Search for an article entitled "TV typewriter"
for fun - I think it was Radio & Electronics or
something similar. That was the start.

Of the DOS-based WPs though, WordPerfect was probably
the best (the latest WIN versions still kick WORD in
the 'nads actually). A lot of those 80s WPs were writ
with the intention of preparing newspaper typesets -
remember seeing the term "microkerning" a lot ? These
days newspapers that still use printing plates just
basically make an etched image - a photograph. If
it looks good in the GUI it looks good in print.

Oh, and 90% of what I write, even for the bosses,
these days is on Leafpad/MousePad/FeatherPad or,
if color is good, Pluma. Even lesser programs
than WordStar. OpenOffice is only for if photos
or charts are required.

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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 by: SixOverFive - Tue, 31 Aug 2021 06:43 UTC

On 08/26/2021 09:12 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 27/08/2021 01:57, SixOverFive wrote:
>> However I *know* that some DOS apps are still in use,
>>    running in DOS with "older" hardware
>
> It's a remarkably good OS if you have for example a PC running
> instrumentation...pretty real time even if only single tasking, easy to
> write a custom interrupt based driver for to handle IO, and enough UI to
> allow a decent screen base on VGA standards to be constructed.
>
> In short if you just uses it as a program loader its OK.

No, you can use it for Real Programs ... within its
inherent limitations. Semi-RealTime, old irreplacable
databases, device management, microcontroller programming,
it's actually very capable - all in a TINY low-horsepower
environment. The old UNIX's were theoretically better, but
they were far more expensive and were memory hogs. Best
suited to host a bunch of serial terminals/thin-clients.

It's at WINDERS that it all went wrong ....

SOMEWHERE in the Great Heap I have Windows 1 (maybe
1.10 or 1.11) floppies. An old boss bought it, played
with it for a few days, and then threw it. In some act
of prescience I rescued it from the trash bin. But
I can't *find* it ! Maybe when I retire I'll go thru
the Great Heap.

Frankly, Win-1 was horrible. Jobs just had to rip-off
Xerox and Bill just had to rip-off Apple, badly. I think
all of the Winders were just basically extended-memory
GUIs that ran on top of DOS at least thru Win-ME. The NT
line was a little better, but not much. Seems you spent
as much time at the command-line as you spent in the GUI.

My fav was Win-2k. According to sources that was the
very LAST time any MS employee actually held the
entire system in his head - and could thus predict
all interactions (change 'a' and it'll do 'x' to 'b').
I have a Win-2k VirtualBox machine - and DO play
with it from time to time. There's actually a fair
amount of software in it including an old FileMaker
DB I'm STILL exporting data from. Oh yea, look thru
the Win2k registry - search for "NSA" :-)

Tried DosBox and DosBox-X (an improved version) over
the past few days. CAN load and run IBM-C v1.00, but
for some reason IBM-Pascal v2.00 won't run. Had to
compile DosBox-X from source ... normally they want
you to run it from some weird 'cloud' environment
called FlatPak. I wanted a DEB. I don't like cloud
environments, never know WHAT else they're up to.
Found MicroSoft-C v??? and MicroSoft Pascal v4???
on WinWorld ... I'll try to install them. STILL want
to run IBM PL/I though. COBOL, well, not so much ...

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 09:28:30 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Tue, 31 Aug 2021 08:28 UTC

On 31/08/2021 07:43, SixOverFive wrote:
>>
>> In short if you just uses it as a program loader its OK.
>
>   No, you can use it for Real Programs ... within its
>   inherent limitations.

I think you meant

"Yes, you can use it for Real Programs ... within its inherent limitations."

Real programs can be written in assembler to run without any operating
system but all of them have to be loaded somehow.,..

--
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
gospel of envy.

Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Winston Churchill

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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From: ank@spamfence.net (Andreas Kohlbach)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
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 by: Andreas Kohlbach - Tue, 31 Aug 2021 10:16 UTC

On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 01:58:53 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>
> On 08/28/2021 08:55 PM, Allodoxaphobia wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 12:20:28 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 09:40:37 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>
>>>> With Wordstar and Supercalc and a dot matrix printer, you were in
>>>> business on two floppy drives - one for programs, one for data,
>>>
>>> I think the first word processor was Electronic Pencil.
>>> "Everything" after are a clones. ;-)
>> heh...
>> I still have WordStar 6.0 running in DosBox on my Ubuntu system.
>> I have it running both for a curiosity exercise and for the ability
>> to print some old, specially crafted PCL files.
>> I'll see if I can drag it along to its half-century mark...
>
> WordStar was OK ... basic, but GOT IT DONE. Just had
> to learn those shortcut commands :-)

/me hugs the WordStar Diamond

As I mentioned I love running vintage machines in an emulator I never
owned to relive early micro computer history. For fun I did some word
editing with WordStar on a Osborn I. Its keyboard doesn't has cursor keys
(so the real cursor keys on the host machine have no function when
emulating the Osborn), thus I had to use the "WordStar Diamond" instead.

Also had to learn the WordStar shortcuts ^K.
--
Andreas

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
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 by: SixOverFive - Wed, 1 Sep 2021 03:47 UTC

On 8/31/21 6:16 AM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 01:58:53 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>>
>> On 08/28/2021 08:55 PM, Allodoxaphobia wrote:
>>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 12:20:28 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 09:40:37 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> With Wordstar and Supercalc and a dot matrix printer, you were in
>>>>> business on two floppy drives - one for programs, one for data,
>>>>
>>>> I think the first word processor was Electronic Pencil.
>>>> "Everything" after are a clones. ;-)
>>> heh...
>>> I still have WordStar 6.0 running in DosBox on my Ubuntu system.
>>> I have it running both for a curiosity exercise and for the ability
>>> to print some old, specially crafted PCL files.
>>> I'll see if I can drag it along to its half-century mark...
>>
>> WordStar was OK ... basic, but GOT IT DONE. Just had
>> to learn those shortcut commands :-)
>
> /me hugs the WordStar Diamond
>
> As I mentioned I love running vintage machines in an emulator I never
> owned to relive early micro computer history. For fun I did some word
> editing with WordStar on a Osborn I. Its keyboard doesn't has cursor keys
> (so the real cursor keys on the host machine have no function when
> emulating the Osborn), thus I had to use the "WordStar Diamond" instead.
>
> Also had to learn the WordStar shortcuts ^K.

You could make do nicely with about 10 of them.

I'll have to find a WordStar .img file somewhere ...

I'm not sure what "vintage" means to YOU. A VIC-20 ? ZX-81 ?
TI-994a ? C64 ? Atari ? CoCo ? I bought almost all of those
new in the box. Still have the TI ... and the warning about
the power supply bursting into flames :-) TI totally *blew*
it with that box ... the nice 9900 processor was hardly
allowed to DO anything, the programs ran mostly off the GPU.
Then they tried to micro-manage/profit off EVERY plug in
cartridge which totally put off would-be developers. Cool
chip though - had a funky hardware-based approach to
multi-user/multi-tasking. BLWP - Branch and Load Workspace
Pointer ... I still remember that bit of assembler ....

To me, "vintage" would mean an IBM 360/370 or DEC PDP-11 box.
Normal humans couldn't buy those mainframes/minis. I always
lusted for a Micro-VAX ... saw one, looked kind of like an
extra-fat server box ... that powered a place with 100
employees via thin clients and terminals. Word processing,
news (even usenet), spreadsheet-like programs, loads of
math/statistical stuff, and you could almost seamlessly
branch off to other remote systems in their network and
beyond. "Connected"/"Big Data" are NOT new concepts -
those Dilberts had been doing it from the early 60s and
had it down good by the 70s.

Oh, got an 80s database program, that hadn't been run since
maybe '92, up and going in DosBox-X today. The big trick was
finding the proper account names (and getting DBX to "print"
to text files). Tons of data to mine now. I'll write a Python
program to parse the report texts, turn 'em into CSVs. The
minor issue is that the thing REALLY wasn't comfortable with
Y2K. The company still exists, but not the product. Their
replacement is something like five figures for an average
sized company .... yeek !

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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 by: SixOverFive - Wed, 1 Sep 2021 04:13 UTC

On 8/31/21 4:28 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 31/08/2021 07:43, SixOverFive wrote:
>>>
>>> In short if you just uses it as a program loader its OK.
>>
>>    No, you can use it for Real Programs ... within its
>>    inherent limitations.
>
> I think you meant
>
> "Yes, you can use it for Real Programs ... within its inherent
> limitations."

Um ... I was sort of contradicting your assessment, so
the "No" had a proper place.

I'm surprised we don't see "DOS-On-Chip" microcontrollers.
Basically burn DOS 5/6/7 into the thing so you have a
capable, yet compact/fast/capable, programming environment.
It's probably an issue with MS - though there IS "FreeDOS".

>
> Real programs can be written in assembler to run without any operating
> system but all of them have to be loaded somehow.,..

Yea, I've written a bunch of those on 'microcontrollers'. PIC
to Arduino. No-OS. There was an outfit that sold a minimal, but
free, 'C' compiler for PIC chips. I'd use it for the NASTY -
interrupt-aware serial comms - and do the rest in ASM. Those
are really cool little chips - the 8-pin jobbies can replace
a lot of those old ICs and give more versatility for almost
the same price. Need to divide an inputo signal by 17 .., and
tweak that with an analog dial ? Easy.

I've always thought the "No-OS" approach might be best for
things like voting machines. As best I can tell, a lot of
the current units are basically recycled Winders laptop boards.
A dedicated program, burnt into eproms, offers a LOT fewer
backdoors, maybe none. Get it right, solder-in the chips,
use some sort of minimalist markup language to build the
on-screen ballots.

Do they still make "fuse" PROMS ? Even better ... you
don't re-write THOSE :-)

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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 by: Charlie Gibbs - Wed, 1 Sep 2021 04:21 UTC

On 2021-08-31, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:

> On 08/26/2021 09:12 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 27/08/2021 01:57, SixOverFive wrote:
>>
>>> However I *know* that some DOS apps are still in use,
>>>    running in DOS with "older" hardware
>>
>> It's a remarkably good OS if you have for example a PC running
>> instrumentation...pretty real time even if only single tasking,
>> easy to write a custom interrupt based driver for to handle IO,
>> and enough UI to allow a decent screen base on VGA standards to
>> be constructed.
>>
>> In short if you just uses it as a program loader its OK.
>
> No, you can use it for Real Programs ... within its
> inherent limitations. Semi-RealTime, old irreplacable
> databases, device management, microcontroller programming,
> it's actually very capable - all in a TINY low-horsepower
> environment. The old UNIX's were theoretically better, but
> they were far more expensive and were memory hogs. Best
> suited to host a bunch of serial terminals/thin-clients.
>
> It's at WINDERS that it all went wrong ....

Nah, MS-DOS had plenty of warts, most of which Windows
inherited.

> SOMEWHERE in the Great Heap I have Windows 1 (maybe
> 1.10 or 1.11) floppies. An old boss bought it, played
> with it for a few days, and then threw it. In some act
> of prescience I rescued it from the trash bin. But
> I can't *find* it ! Maybe when I retire I'll go thru
> the Great Heap.
>
> Frankly, Win-1 was horrible. Jobs just had to rip-off
> Xerox and Bill just had to rip-off Apple, badly. I think
> all of the Winders were just basically extended-memory
> GUIs that ran on top of DOS at least thru Win-ME. The NT
> line was a little better, but not much.

At the height of the look-and-feel lawsuits, a cartoon
appeared showing one lawyer saying to another:
"You look like I feel."

> Seems you spent as much time at the command-line as you
> spent in the GUI.

You make this sound like a bad thing.

> My fav was Win-2k. According to sources that was the
> very LAST time any MS employee actually held the
> entire system in his head - and could thus predict
> all interactions (change 'a' and it'll do 'x' to 'b').
> I have a Win-2k VirtualBox machine - and DO play
> with it from time to time. There's actually a fair
> amount of software in it including an old FileMaker
> DB I'm STILL exporting data from. Oh yea, look thru
> the Win2k registry - search for "NSA" :-)

IMHO Windows' usability (such as it is) peaked somewhere
between 2000 and XP, and it's been going downhill ever since.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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From: cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Date: 1 Sep 2021 04:21:00 GMT
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 by: Charlie Gibbs - Wed, 1 Sep 2021 04:21 UTC

On 2021-08-31, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:

> On 08/30/2021 10:03 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2021-08-30, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 08/29/2021 08:51 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>
>>>> If all else fails, you can always re-write it.
>>>> As another old saying goes:
>>>>
>>>> There's never time to do it right,
>>>> but always time to do it over.
>>>
>>> Only if you live in Mom's basement.
>>>
>>> In a pay-by-the-hour environment you CAN'T do it
>>> over and over and over again.
>>
>> Not over and over and over, perhaps. But given a
>> sufficiently crappy design, vague and/or conflicting
>> specs, and a steady stream of ill-conceived change
>> requests, the system will eventually fall apart,
>> at which time even the dumbest managers will realize
>> that a re-write is in order.
>
> The Boss wants PRODUCT, PROFIT - and he/she/it
> wants it NOW. Doesn't MATTER if it's a crappy
> un-extensible un-supportable design, just has
> to LOOK GOOD so the advertisers can SELL it.

And that will work until that crappy un-extensible
un-supportable design can't keep up with requirements.
But that's next year's problem, over the event horizon
for companies interested solely in the current quarter's
bottom line. If everything crashes next year... well,
if the boss is really clever he'll have his golden
parachute packed and ready for use.

> And that's The Truth about far far more software
> than you'd like to believe. Wonder how those
> eastern-bloc teenagers keep getting into all
> our stuff ? NOW you know why.

Not just eastern-bloc teenagers? Windows looks great,
works crappy, and has security holes you can drive a
truck through - some of them by design.

> If you want GOOD software (and hardware) look
> to the people who design NASA planetary probes.
> Ultra-resistant to corruption, always ways to
> get around damage. Those systems are a marvel.
> They're also part of the reason those probes
> COST so much and take a decade+ to design.

Yes, but that software is so _boring_! No fancy but
meaningless graphics, no futzing around behind your
back - just columns of numbers that are meaningless
to those who don't know what they're doing, but
priceless to those who do.

My philosophy is that systems should be ugly and boring.
Ugly because they have no glitzy graphics that get in the
way, and boring because they just do what they're supposed
to do without unpleasant surprises.

> "Dilbert" is a LOT more true than most think.
> The writer spend a long time at IBM and similar
> houses until he just couldn't take the BS
> anymore .....

Paraphrasing Voltaire:

If Dilbert did not exist, it would
be necessary to invent him.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 08:52:53 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 1 Sep 2021 07:52 UTC

On 01/09/2021 05:13, SixOverFive wrote:
> Do they still make "fuse" PROMS ? Even better ... you
>   don't re-write THOSE :-)

well FPGAS are sort of usable as that design your won processor and its
microcode...

--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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From: ank@spamfence.net (Andreas Kohlbach)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 07:52:36 -0400
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 by: Andreas Kohlbach - Wed, 1 Sep 2021 11:52 UTC

On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 23:47:05 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>
> On 8/31/21 6:16 AM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 01:58:53 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>>
>>> WordStar was OK ... basic, but GOT IT DONE. Just had
>>> to learn those shortcut commands :-)
>> /me hugs the WordStar Diamond
>> As I mentioned I love running vintage machines in an emulator I
>> never
>> owned to relive early micro computer history. For fun I did some word
>> editing with WordStar on a Osborn I. Its keyboard doesn't has cursor keys
>> (so the real cursor keys on the host machine have no function when
>> emulating the Osborn), thus I had to use the "WordStar Diamond" instead.
>> Also had to learn the WordStar shortcuts ^K.
>
> You could make do nicely with about 10 of them.
>
> I'll have to find a WordStar .img file somewhere ...
>
> I'm not sure what "vintage" means to YOU. A VIC-20 ? ZX-81 ?
> TI-994a ? C64 ? Atari ? CoCo ?

All of them. Plus the Osborn, Kaypro and many other micros of the 1980s.
--
Andreas

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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From: rogblake@iname.invalid (Roger Blake)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 01:49:06 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Roger Blake - Thu, 2 Sep 2021 01:49 UTC

On 2021-09-01, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> All of them. Plus the Osborn, Kaypro and many other micros of the 1980s.

I still have my Interact in the original box. Hasn't worked in ages though.

http://oldcomputermuseum.com/interact.html

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

18 Reasons I won't be vaccinated -- https://tinyurl.com/ebty2dx3
Covid vaccines: experimental biology -- https://tinyurl.com/57mncfm5
The fraud of "Climate Change" -- https://RealClimateScience.com
Don't talk to cops! -- https://DontTalkToCops.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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From: wNOSPAMp@gmail.org (pH)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
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 by: pH - Thu, 2 Sep 2021 02:39 UTC

On 2021-09-02, Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> wrote:
> On 2021-09-01, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> All of them. Plus the Osborn, Kaypro and many other micros of the 1980s.
>
> I still have my Interact in the original box. Hasn't worked in ages though.
>
> http://oldcomputermuseum.com/interact.html

I appreciate the links you have in your sig and found the 18 reasons one
very interesting reading.

pH

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 by: SixOverFive - Thu, 2 Sep 2021 04:15 UTC

On 8/26/21 10:01 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2021-08-26, SixOverFive <hae274b.net> wrote:
>
>> Drifting around today I found a few interesting antiques
>> on the net. One was DOS-6.22 ... and a Turbo Pascal 6
>> compiler that ran on it. Also got the MS Fortran/Pascal/COBOL
>> and BASCOM for it. Even more interesting, remember when the
>> IBM-PCs first came out ? They came with TWO floppies -
>> IBM-DOS and CP/M-86. The originals had CP/M 1.0 while the
>> closely-following PC-XTs came with CP/M 1.10 ...
>> got BOTH to run inside VirtualBox. Even found an ancient
>> Aztec 'C' compiler that'll make CP/M executables AND
>> the (rather extensive) manual.
>
> Hmm, I have an unopened copy of CP/M-86 version 2.
> I'll get it uploaded to Bitsavers someday.

I think v2, or at least 1.1, came with XPs.Archive
has v1, and I've been playing with that.

Try "winworld" for ancient DOS stuff. Found IBM-C v1
and IBM-Pascal v2. Lots of Turbo/Borland pascals.
Also got MS-C v6 (v7 *expects* Winders stuff) but
haven't installed it yet.

>> Note, CP/M was rather CRAPPY. It wasn't even usually
>> safe to try and append to files because the OS didn't
>> keep track of how many bytes were in play.
>
> CP/M stored file sizes in 128-byte sectors. That's why
> that control-Z byte was introduced: so you could tell
> when you've hit the exact end of a text file. Most
> CP/M software was smart enough to overwrite the 0x1A
> character when appending data.
>
> MS-DOS stores the size of a file as an exact number of
> bytes. Unfortunately, it retained the control-Z character,
> even though it was now unnecessary. This has caused all
> sorts of pain; for instance, if a byte in a text file gets
> corrupted to 0x1A, the remainder of the file is lost.
>
> I never had trouble appending to a CP/M file, but I did
> encounter problems with MS-DOS version 3, which contained
> a bug: when COMMAND.COM appended data to a text file
> (e.g. "dir >>file.txt"), and the existing file ended
> with a hex 1A, the hex 1A wasn't overwritten. This meant
> that all appended text, although physically present in
> the file, would be inaccessible to any program reading it.

I never ran into that, but clearly I *could* have.

My fav was v5. 6.22 is ok too - but beyond that Winders
was *expected* and you'll run into missing drivers and
such.

>
> Although this bug was fixed in the next release, it was part
> of my early introduction to Microsoft's quality standards -
> "sort of works, most of the time" - which formed the philosophy
> of the most famous producer of crappy software in history.
>

DOS was actually pretty good "quality" - the simplicity
was a big help there.

As Winders move in further and further though ... I think
they just COULDN'T keep their heads wrapped around it all
and, profits in mind, they didn't CARE. MS was THE Os
(and yes, MS is well-invested in Apple) and the mindset
was that the world does it THEIR way or NO way. PAY,
and DON'T complain.

Which was a good part of why I was a very early Linux
person :-)

OK, not *that* early, the first one DID have X ...
albeit a horrible kinda beta/alpha version. Had
to do lots of edits to a LOT of config files just
so it'd understand my mouse ..

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