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computers / comp.os.linux.misc / Re: What's the best linux distro?

SubjectAuthor
* Re: What's the best linux distro?F Russell
+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
|`* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Jimmy Johnson
|  +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Robert Riches
|  |`- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
|  `* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
|   `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Rich
|    +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Jasen Betts
|    |`- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
|    `- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
+* Re: What's the best linux distro?F Russell
|`* Re: What's the best linux distro?SixOverFive
| +- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| ||`* Re: X-post and follow-Up (Was: What's the best linux distro?)Carlos E.R.
| || `* Re: X-post and follow-UpBud Frede
| ||  `- Re: X-post and follow-UpCarlos E. R.
| |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| ||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| || +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || |+- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| || |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || ||+- Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| || |||+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || ||||+- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || ||||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || |||| +- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || |||| `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Marc Haber
| || |||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bud Frede
| || ||| `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || ||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || || `- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bobbie Sellers
| || ||+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || |||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || ||| `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || |||  `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || |||   +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || |||   |`- Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || |||   `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || |||    `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Aragorn
| || ||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bud Frede
| || || `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || |`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bud Frede
| || | +- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || | `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Aragorn
| || +* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Robert Latest
| || ||+- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || ||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| || || `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Robert Latest
| || ||  `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| || |+- Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || || `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Marc Haber
| || ||  `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || ||   `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||    `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || ||     `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||      `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || ||       `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||        +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || ||        |`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||        | `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || ||        |  +- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || ||        |  `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||        |   `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || ||        |    `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||        |     +- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || ||        |     `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || ||        |      `* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || ||        |       `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Eli the Bearded
| || ||        `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || ||         +- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || ||         `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || |`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || | `* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || |  `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| || `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| ||  +* Re: What's the best linux distro?jjb
| ||  |`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bobbie Sellers
| ||  | +- Re: What's the best linux distro?Aragorn
| ||  | `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Bud Frede
| ||  +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| ||  |`- Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| ||  `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| ||   `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bud Frede
| ||    `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| ||     `- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Jimmy Johnson
| ||+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Robert Latest
| |||`- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| ||+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Aragorn
| |||+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| ||||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Aragorn
| |||| `- Re: What's the best linux distro?J.O. Aho
| |||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bud Frede
| ||`- Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| |`- Re: What's the best linux distro?Branimir Maksimovic
| `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
`- Re: What's the best linux distro?SixOverFive

Pages:12345
Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: frede@mouse-potato.com (Bud Frede)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Organization: Wossamotta U.
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Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 07:11:35 -0400
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 by: Bud Frede - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:11 UTC

Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:

> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>
>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>
>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>
> Systemd is unarguably faster.
> The user interface is way simpler than initd.
> The design of systemd makes a whole bunch of things possible that were
> never possible with initd. (Like actually being able to access a
> description of each service or getting a list of all services.)
> IMO it's a bunch of know-nothings that continue with this systemd
> bashing.

I'm kind of surprised that some people are still whinging about
it. Systemd is what most distros are using and that's that.

It isn't perfect, but it works and it has useful features that SysV init
did not - features that I wanted and still value.

Actually, I lied. I'm not surprised that people are still whinging about
Systemd. People love to argue and beat a drum. It's plastic-tip
vs. metal-tip shoelaces all over again. :-)

(When people were arguing about something that was irrelevant,
meaningless, or already a forgone conclusion, my father used to say
"plastic-tip vs. metal-tip" to signify that it wasn't worth discussing.)

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: frede@mouse-potato.com (Bud Frede)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Organization: Wossamotta U.
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 by: Bud Frede - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:26 UTC

"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:

> On 25/08/2021 15.31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 25/08/2021 13:53, Dan Espen wrote:
>>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>>>
>>>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>>>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>>>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>>>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>>>
>>>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>>>
>>> Systemd is unarguably faster.
>> who needs to boot a server faster? when you only take it doiwn every
>> few months and its down for at least a few hours while you mess
>> aroujnd with it.
>
> Me. I want booting my machines faster. Even the servers.
>

Especially the servers sometimes. If something is down, or if load
skyrockets and it needs to autoscale, I very much want servers that boot
fast.

>>
>>> The user interface is way simpler than initd.
>> Rubbish
>
> In your opinion.

SysV init can be simple to use, for simple tasks. However, when you need
something complex, it gets rather baroque, and no two people set it up
the same way. That makes for a whole lot of complexity for a typical
computer.

Systemd involves some more complex upfront design (by the systemd
developers), but in operation it is simple and consistent. It remains
simple and consistent even when your needs are more complex.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: frede@mouse-potato.com (Bud Frede)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Organization: Wossamotta U.
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 by: Bud Frede - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:32 UTC

"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:

> On 25/08/2021 17.47, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>>>
>>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>>>
>>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>>
>>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>> “Nothing else suitable” isn’t true at all. Disregarding the rather
>> large
>> set of toy/experimental inits, Upstart was already deployed in
>> production Linux systems. Launchd would have needed porting for use on
>> Linux but was (and still is) happily managing large numbers of real
>> computers.
>
> Well, openSUSE was not about to use Ubuntu method :-p
>

Redhat was using upstart. That's arguably more persuasive than anything
that SuSE was doing or not doing. :-)

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: frede@mouse-potato.com (Bud Frede)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Bud Frede - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:42 UTC

Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> writes:

> On 25.08.2021 at 21:02, Jimmy Johnson scribbled:
>
>> On 08/25/2021 02:56 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>> > F Russell is one of the local trolls, a fanatic. Linux has to be
>> > his way or it is evil. Systemd is evil. He likes a linux with
>> > basically no services, no init system, tailored solely for him.
>> > What the distributions do, a system that works as is for many
>> > people is evil. Linux for the masses is evil, it has to be for
>> > hackers only and must be difficult to use.
>>
>> Besides slowing a system down, [...
>
> My PCLinuxOS system with SysVinit booted up from hitting Enter at the
> GRUB menu to a character-mode console login prompt in about 50 seconds.
>
> My Manjaro system with systemd boots up from hitting Enter at the GRUB
> menu to the SDDM login screen in 10 seconds.
>
> Now, I could be grossly wrong, but I am still firmly convinced that 10
> seconds is less than 50 seconds.
>

One of my friends did some testing way back when systemd was first being
used, in Arch IIRC what he tested with. He found that systemd did indeed
speed up the boot process vs. SysV init.

I'm not sure that I can really offer any valid anecdotal info from my
experiences. There were many changes, like HDs to SSDs, physical
hardware to virtual machines, etc. that were happening too, so booting
became faster.

SSDs certainly made systems boot faster. VMs often boot much faster than
physical servers do. I myself haven't tested to see if Systemd makes
booting faster than SysV init. All I can say is that I've seen evidence
that it did make booting faster, and no evidence at all that it makes
booting slower.

I haven't seen any evidence that Systemd slows down a system when it's
not booting either. I think the troll, whichever one it was (they kind
of blend together Natural Jimmy Russell Flatfish) is just spewing
bullshit.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: invalid@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:50 UTC

Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>>>
>>>> I never said systemd is easy to understand. It would be a lie. But
>>>> saying SysV is easy would be a lie too.
>>>
>>> Funny you should say systemd is not easy to understand. I can't
>>> imagine a simpler system. One file type for configuration with the
>>> simplest syntax possible, and just a few keywords to know about.
>>
>> A simple config file syntax doesn’t make a system easy to understand.
>> There are thousands of lines of man pages containing over 160 options,
>> with an implementation exceeding half a million lines of C. It’s not
>> badly documented, but it’s a complex system and it’s silly to pretend
>> there’s no learning curve here.
>
> Where is the user interface? With initd, it's that pile of scripts,
> each one a custom creation and a forest of symbolic links.
> Where is the learning curve compared to systemd's simple config file
> syntax?

I have no idea why you’re focussing on the config file syntax, since
there’s a lot more to systemd (or any nontrivial init) than that.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: X-post and follow-Up

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: X-post and follow-Up
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 14:02:32 +0200
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 12:02 UTC

On 29/08/2021 12.52, Bud Frede wrote:
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 26/08/2021 10.31, J.O. Aho wrote:
>>> On 26/08/2021 06.13, RonB wrote:
>>>> On 2021-08-26, jrg <jeff.g.group@att.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 8/25/21 4:10 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>>>>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>> He now and then posts something like that here, and sets the follow up
>>>>>>> to the advocacy group, to have a heated mad discussion there, I
>>>>>>> suppose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And you indulge him.
>>>>>>
>>>>> cross post deleted
>>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> My slrn scorefile deletes all crossposts automatically. I find that
>>>> cleans
>>>> up a newsgroup faster than anything else.
>>>>
>>> Don't know which groups you subscribe for, but for me, most shit is
>>> multi posts and not cross posted, not sure it's possible with G2-web
>>> interface.
>>
>> That way you have half the posts of the thread in one group and half
>> in the other, so that some people will not see yours.
>
> I tend to leave the groups alone when replying to a cross-posted
> article, although I do remove things like the advocacy cesspools.

Certainly, me too. The two groups listed in this post are precisely just
that.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: dan1espen@gmail.com (Dan Espen)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 08:07:01 -0400
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 by: Dan Espen - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 12:07 UTC

Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:

> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> I never said systemd is easy to understand. It would be a lie. But
>>>>> saying SysV is easy would be a lie too.
>>>>
>>>> Funny you should say systemd is not easy to understand. I can't
>>>> imagine a simpler system. One file type for configuration with the
>>>> simplest syntax possible, and just a few keywords to know about.
>>>
>>> A simple config file syntax doesn’t make a system easy to understand.
>>> There are thousands of lines of man pages containing over 160 options,
>>> with an implementation exceeding half a million lines of C. It’s not
>>> badly documented, but it’s a complex system and it’s silly to pretend
>>> there’s no learning curve here.
>>
>> Where is the user interface? With initd, it's that pile of scripts,
>> each one a custom creation and a forest of symbolic links.
>> Where is the learning curve compared to systemd's simple config file
>> syntax?
>
> I have no idea why you’re focussing on the config file syntax, since
> there’s a lot more to systemd (or any nontrivial init) than that.

It's the only visible user interface.

--
Dan Espen

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: frede@mouse-potato.com (Bud Frede)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Organization: Wossamotta U.
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 by: Bud Frede - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 12:09 UTC

Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> writes:

> On 8/25/21 05:53, Dan Espen wrote:
>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>>
>>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>>
>>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>> Systemd is unarguably faster.
>> The user interface is way simpler than initd.
>> The design of systemd makes a whole bunch of things possible that were
>> never possible with initd. (Like actually being able to access a
>> description of each service or getting a list of all services.)
>> IMO it's a bunch of know-nothings that continue with this systemd
>> bashing.
>
> Well certainly I suffer from vast areas of ignorance but
> GNU/Linux without systemd was/is faster and is/was more
> reliable
> than when I used systemd on Mageia 3.1. I started with Mandriva
> 2006. Before that I used Amiga computers from Commodore.

I'm sorry, but I've used Systemd on a much larger variety of distros,
and a far wider variety of systems, desktops, servers, laptops,
Raspberry Pi and Odroid SBCs, etc., and Systemd has been quite fast and
has been more reliable, mostly because the config for services is
simpler and not the hairball that SysV init and its scripts can easily
become.

The Amiga was really cool for the time, and in fact I was just watching
a documentary on it earlier this morning. (Damn you Irving Gould and
Mehdi Ali!) However, it was a pretty radical change from earlier
systems. The Mac, Atari ST, and Amiga were all part of a new wave of
computers that were big improvements in many ways over the older
personal computers.

There were many people who resisted "those new-fangled computers." I was
one. I didn't at first see the advantage to them vs. the Apple ][ that I
had been using at home. I later started using PCs with DOS and it wasn't
until much later with OS/2 2.1 that I started to use a GUI on a daily
basis.

I'm not going to claim that Systemd was as brilliant an improvement as
the Amiga was in 1985. However, for some people and some uses, it's
pretty brilliant. :-) I find it to be a very useful tool.

https://opensource.com/article/20/10/cgroups

This article talks about something that I find to be pretty brilliant
about Systemd. It's may not be meaningful for a desktop system that
only sees light duty, but for home lab or development use, or for
servers, it's very intriguing.

>
> Systemd may be handy for people who must maintain a lot of
> machines as in an Enterprise situation but for me on my laptops
> other solutions are available.

It's fine that you prefer other solutions on your laptops, and fine that
you use them. Use whatever you prefer. :-)

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: frede@mouse-potato.com (Bud Frede)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Organization: Wossamotta U.
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 by: Bud Frede - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 12:19 UTC

Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> writes:

> On 8/25/21 09:17, jjb wrote:
>> On 25-08-2021 17:47, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>> systemd as it is today has a lot of features they’re missing, certainly,
>>> but applying the same effort to them that was in fact put into systemd
>>> doesn’t seem like a totally unrealistic option, had anyone chosen to
>>> pursue it.
>>>
>> But they didn't...
>>
>
> Because they see the featuritis of systemd as a complication
> to be avoided rather than sought. One program one function
> is the old GNU design criteria.

Emacs anyone? :-)

I'd also point to compression being added to tar with GNU tar. That
compbined two programs into one. Not very "one program one function."

There are plenty of non-GNU examples of UNIX things that don't adhere to
"one program one function" as well.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: invalid@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 13:23:04 +0100
Organization: terraraq NNTP server
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 12:23 UTC

Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I never said systemd is easy to understand. It would be a lie. But
>>>>>> saying SysV is easy would be a lie too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Funny you should say systemd is not easy to understand. I can't
>>>>> imagine a simpler system. One file type for configuration with the
>>>>> simplest syntax possible, and just a few keywords to know about.
>>>>
>>>> A simple config file syntax doesn’t make a system easy to understand.
>>>> There are thousands of lines of man pages containing over 160 options,
>>>> with an implementation exceeding half a million lines of C. It’s not
>>>> badly documented, but it’s a complex system and it’s silly to pretend
>>>> there’s no learning curve here.
>>>
>>> Where is the user interface? With initd, it's that pile of scripts,
>>> each one a custom creation and a forest of symbolic links.
>>> Where is the learning curve compared to systemd's simple config file
>>> syntax?
>>
>> I have no idea why you’re focussing on the config file syntax, since
>> there’s a lot more to systemd (or any nontrivial init) than that.
>
> It's the only visible user interface.

systemd.syntax is tiny indeed, but if that’s all someone reads they will
still have no idea how to write or interpret a unit file.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 12:29 UTC

On 29/08/2021 13.11, Bud Frede wrote:

>
> I'm kind of surprised that some people are still whinging about
> it. Systemd is what most distros are using and that's that.
>
> It isn't perfect, but it works and it has useful features that SysV init
> did not - features that I wanted and still value.
>
> Actually, I lied. I'm not surprised that people are still whinging about
> Systemd. People love to argue and beat a drum. It's plastic-tip
> vs. metal-tip shoelaces all over again. :-)
>
> (When people were arguing about something that was irrelevant,
> meaningless, or already a forgone conclusion, my father used to say
> "plastic-tip vs. metal-tip" to signify that it wasn't worth discussing.)

You are right :-)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 14:27:40 +0200
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 12:27 UTC

On 29/08/2021 13.26, Bud Frede wrote:
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>> On 25/08/2021 15.31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 25/08/2021 13:53, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>>>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>>>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>>>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>>>>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>>>>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>>>>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>>>>
>>>>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>>>>
>>>> Systemd is unarguably faster.
>>> who needs to boot a server faster? when you only take it doiwn every
>>> few months and its down for at least a few hours while you mess
>>> aroujnd with it.
>>
>> Me. I want booting my machines faster. Even the servers.
>>
>
> Especially the servers sometimes. If something is down, or if load
> skyrockets and it needs to autoscale, I very much want servers that boot
> fast.
>
>>>
>>>> The user interface is way simpler than initd.
>>> Rubbish
>>
>> In your opinion.
>
> SysV init can be simple to use, for simple tasks. However, when you need
> something complex, it gets rather baroque, and no two people set it up
> the same way. That makes for a whole lot of complexity for a typical
> computer.
>
> Systemd involves some more complex upfront design (by the systemd
> developers), but in operation it is simple and consistent. It remains
> simple and consistent even when your needs are more complex.
>

That's it, absolutely.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 14:36:04 +0200
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 12:36 UTC

On 29/08/2021 13.32, Bud Frede wrote:
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>> On 25/08/2021 17.47, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>>>>
>>>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>>>
>>>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>>>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>>>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>>>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>> “Nothing else suitable” isn’t true at all. Disregarding the rather
>>> large
>>> set of toy/experimental inits, Upstart was already deployed in
>>> production Linux systems. Launchd would have needed porting for use on
>>> Linux but was (and still is) happily managing large numbers of real
>>> computers.
>>
>> Well, openSUSE was not about to use Ubuntu method :-p
>>
>
> Redhat was using upstart. That's arguably more persuasive than anything
> that SuSE was doing or not doing. :-)

I don't remember what was said at the time about upstart, but basically
it was "no" :-)

Me, at the time I preferred initd scripts. Easy to change /one/ script
that misbehaves. But of course, each script was different with its own
learning curve. I did not see the reason to change. But change came and
now I came to accept/like it.

Doesn't mean I /know/ systemd. When I have to do something I often have
to ask.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 12:43 UTC

On 29/08/2021 14.09, Bud Frede wrote:
> Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> writes:

....
> I'm not going to claim that Systemd was as brilliant an improvement as
> the Amiga was in 1985. However, for some people and some uses, it's
> pretty brilliant. :-) I find it to be a very useful tool.
>
> https://opensource.com/article/20/10/cgroups
>
> This article talks about something that I find to be pretty brilliant
> about Systemd. It's may not be meaningful for a desktop system that
> only sees light duty, but for home lab or development use, or for
> servers, it's very intriguing.

cgroups, yes. I have used it and it is indeed useful and simple with
systemd.

>
>
>>
>> Systemd may be handy for people who must maintain a lot of
>> machines as in an Enterprise situation but for me on my laptops
>> other solutions are available.
>
> It's fine that you prefer other solutions on your laptops, and fine that
> you use them. Use whatever you prefer. :-)
>

Absolutely :-)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: sc@fiat-linux.fr (Stéphane CARPENTIER)
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Stéphane CARPENTIER - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 12:59 UTC

Le 29-08-2021, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> a écrit :
> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>
>> I have no idea why you’re focussing on the config file syntax, since
>> there’s a lot more to systemd (or any nontrivial init) than that.
>
> It's the only visible user interface.

What about that?

journalctl systemctl systemd-cryptenroll systemd-hwdb systemd-nspawn
systemd-stdio-bridge systemd-analyze systemd-delta systemd-id128
systemd-path systemd-sysext systemd-ask-password systemd-detect-virt
systemd-inhibit systemd-repart systemd-sysusers systemd-cat
systemd-dissect systemd-machine-id-setup systemd-resolve
systemd-tmpfiles systemd-cgls systemd-escape systemd-mount systemd-run
systemd-tty-ask-password-agent systemd-cgtop systemd-firstboot
systemd-notify systemd-socket-activate systemd-umount

They don't count as visible user interface?

Systemd is not only about launching services, but managing them too.
Unlike SysV which was only starting the system and didn't care of the
processes once launched. The best things brought by systemd are not only
a few seconds at the startup. The few seconds are just a good side
effect.

For example, I'd say systemd was the first to use the cgroups, even if
they were available in the kernel a long time before. And to understand
the way the cgroups are managed by systemd, it's not enough to look at
the config file syntax.

Another example, some people complain because the logs are by default in
a binary format. But now the search in the logs is really great. Using
this new way isn't related with the config file syntax.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: user@example.net (J.O. Aho)
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Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 15:26:04 +0200
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 by: J.O. Aho - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 13:26 UTC

On 29/08/2021 13.42, Bud Frede wrote:
> Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> writes:
>
>> On 25.08.2021 at 21:02, Jimmy Johnson scribbled:
>>
>>> On 08/25/2021 02:56 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>
>>>> F Russell is one of the local trolls, a fanatic. Linux has to be
>>>> his way or it is evil. Systemd is evil. He likes a linux with
>>>> basically no services, no init system, tailored solely for him.
>>>> What the distributions do, a system that works as is for many
>>>> people is evil. Linux for the masses is evil, it has to be for
>>>> hackers only and must be difficult to use.
>>>
>>> Besides slowing a system down, [...
>>
>> My PCLinuxOS system with SysVinit booted up from hitting Enter at the
>> GRUB menu to a character-mode console login prompt in about 50 seconds.
>>
>> My Manjaro system with systemd boots up from hitting Enter at the GRUB
>> menu to the SDDM login screen in 10 seconds.
>>
>> Now, I could be grossly wrong, but I am still firmly convinced that 10
>> seconds is less than 50 seconds.
>>
>
> One of my friends did some testing way back when systemd was first being
> used, in Arch IIRC what he tested with. He found that systemd did indeed
> speed up the boot process vs. SysV init.

One thing that systemd does which none of the other init systems (as far
as I know) do set some things to be executed first when you need it, so
by default nfs mounts aren't mounted at boot up, they are mounted first
when you access the nfs mount, which makes the first access extremely
slow. In this case you save some time during the initial boot, but
detecting access and the mount will actually make it take longer time.

Sure you can reconfigure the unit file in systemd to mount the nfs at
boot time and you increase the boot up time, but on the other hand the
user will not get the long delay when first accessing the share.

Just compare the boot up time isn't enough, you have to take a look if
everything is really started by systemd or if it's left it to later
waiting for user action, as that extra wait time for the user waiting
for the service to be started up should be added to the boot up time to
make it a more comparable with other init systems.

For me the boot time ain't that important as I seldom reboot my machines
that thanks to live patching of the kernel that works fine in most cases
(for me).

The issue I have with systemd is the somewhat frequent security issues
and in most cases those tend to be able to give the attacker the most
privileged access of the system outside the kernel.

--

//Aho

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
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Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 13:43 UTC

On 29/08/2021 14.59, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 29-08-2021, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> a écrit :
>> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> I have no idea why you’re focussing on the config file syntax, since
>>> there’s a lot more to systemd (or any nontrivial init) than that.
>>
>> It's the only visible user interface.
>
> What about that?
>
> journalctl systemctl systemd-cryptenroll systemd-hwdb systemd-nspawn
> systemd-stdio-bridge systemd-analyze systemd-delta systemd-id128
> systemd-path systemd-sysext systemd-ask-password systemd-detect-virt
> systemd-inhibit systemd-repart systemd-sysusers systemd-cat
> systemd-dissect systemd-machine-id-setup systemd-resolve
> systemd-tmpfiles systemd-cgls systemd-escape systemd-mount systemd-run
> systemd-tty-ask-password-agent systemd-cgtop systemd-firstboot
> systemd-notify systemd-socket-activate systemd-umount
>
> They don't count as visible user interface?

No :-)

I only use a handful of commands or maybe less. systemctl and
journalctl, that's it. :-)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: invalid@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 14:57:22 +0100
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 13:57 UTC

"J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> writes:
> One thing that systemd does which none of the other init systems (as
> far as I know) do set some things to be executed first when you need
> it, so by default nfs mounts aren't mounted at boot up, they are
> mounted first when you access the nfs mount, which makes the first
> access extremely slow. In this case you save some time during the
> initial boot, but detecting access and the mount will actually make it
> take longer time.
>
> Sure you can reconfigure the unit file in systemd to mount the nfs at
> boot time and you increase the boot up time, but on the other hand the
> user will not get the long delay when first accessing the share.

That’s always been possible with automounting, since before Linux even
existed. The only new thing here is that it’s integrated into init.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Aragorn - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 14:09 UTC

On 29.08.2021 at 07:11, Bud Frede scribbled:

> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Systemd is unarguably faster.
> > The user interface is way simpler than initd.
> > The design of systemd makes a whole bunch of things possible that
> > were never possible with initd. (Like actually being able to
> > access a description of each service or getting a list of all
> > services.) IMO it's a bunch of know-nothings that continue with
> > this systemd bashing.
>
> I'm kind of surprised that some people are still whinging about
> it. Systemd is what most distros are using and that's that.

Haters gonna hate, and some people simply have an irrational fear of
change, even when "change" equals "better". <shrug>

--
With respect,
= Aragorn =

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 15:16:42 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 14:16 UTC

On 29/08/2021 13:36, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> I did not see the reason to change. But change came and
> now I came to accept/like it.
>
> Doesn't mean I/know/ systemd. When I have to do something I often have
> to ask.

Its like postscript and X windows. Designed to be able to do anything,
but finally tamed by putting in shims to ensue that there is a way
simpler API that only uses the useful 1% of the features...

But they are standards and we are stuck with them

--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Bud Frede - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 14:47 UTC

Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:

> "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> writes:
>> One thing that systemd does which none of the other init systems (as
>> far as I know) do set some things to be executed first when you need
>> it, so by default nfs mounts aren't mounted at boot up, they are
>> mounted first when you access the nfs mount, which makes the first
>> access extremely slow. In this case you save some time during the
>> initial boot, but detecting access and the mount will actually make it
>> take longer time.
>>
>> Sure you can reconfigure the unit file in systemd to mount the nfs at
>> boot time and you increase the boot up time, but on the other hand the
>> user will not get the long delay when first accessing the share.
>
> That’s always been possible with automounting, since before Linux even
> existed. The only new thing here is that it’s integrated into init.

I was just thinking of exactly that. I worked at a place that used SunOS
and then Solaris, and we kept our user IDs consistent throughout and
then automounted our home directories. No matter what machine I logged
into, I had my files with me. We used automount a fair bit for things
that didn't need to be constantly mounted via NFS.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: dan1espen@gmail.com (Dan Espen)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:38:07 -0400
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 by: Dan Espen - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 15:38 UTC

Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:

> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I never said systemd is easy to understand. It would be a lie. But
>>>>>>> saying SysV is easy would be a lie too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Funny you should say systemd is not easy to understand. I can't
>>>>>> imagine a simpler system. One file type for configuration with the
>>>>>> simplest syntax possible, and just a few keywords to know about.
>>>>>
>>>>> A simple config file syntax doesn’t make a system easy to understand.
>>>>> There are thousands of lines of man pages containing over 160 options,
>>>>> with an implementation exceeding half a million lines of C. It’s not
>>>>> badly documented, but it’s a complex system and it’s silly to pretend
>>>>> there’s no learning curve here.
>>>>
>>>> Where is the user interface? With initd, it's that pile of scripts,
>>>> each one a custom creation and a forest of symbolic links.
>>>> Where is the learning curve compared to systemd's simple config file
>>>> syntax?
>>>
>>> I have no idea why you’re focussing on the config file syntax, since
>>> there’s a lot more to systemd (or any nontrivial init) than that.
>>
>> It's the only visible user interface.
>
> systemd.syntax is tiny indeed, but if that’s all someone reads they will
> still have no idea how to write or interpret a unit file.

"No idea"? Hardly.
Have you looked?
They seem pretty straight forward to me.

--
Dan Espen

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Dan Espen - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 15:41 UTC

Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:

> Le 29-08-2021, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> a écrit :
>> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> I have no idea why you’re focussing on the config file syntax, since
>>> there’s a lot more to systemd (or any nontrivial init) than that.
>>
>> It's the only visible user interface.
>
> What about that?
>
> journalctl systemctl systemd-cryptenroll systemd-hwdb systemd-nspawn
> systemd-stdio-bridge systemd-analyze systemd-delta systemd-id128
> systemd-path systemd-sysext systemd-ask-password systemd-detect-virt
> systemd-inhibit systemd-repart systemd-sysusers systemd-cat
> systemd-dissect systemd-machine-id-setup systemd-resolve
> systemd-tmpfiles systemd-cgls systemd-escape systemd-mount systemd-run
> systemd-tty-ask-password-agent systemd-cgtop systemd-firstboot
> systemd-notify systemd-socket-activate systemd-umount
>
> They don't count as visible user interface?

Yes it does.
Of course that's a command line tool and not that hard to learn, but I'd
expect the distro to be loaded with tools making use of the command line
tool an exception rather than the rule.

> Systemd is not only about launching services, but managing them too.
> Unlike SysV which was only starting the system and didn't care of the
> processes once launched. The best things brought by systemd are not only
> a few seconds at the startup. The few seconds are just a good side
> effect.
>
> For example, I'd say systemd was the first to use the cgroups, even if
> they were available in the kernel a long time before. And to understand
> the way the cgroups are managed by systemd, it's not enough to look at
> the config file syntax.

True, but then I'd consider cgroups distinct from systemd.

> Another example, some people complain because the logs are by default in
> a binary format. But now the search in the logs is really great. Using
> this new way isn't related with the config file syntax.

The journal and systemd the init system are distinct.
The journal brings lots of new capabilities while leaving all the old
/var/log stuff in place.

--
Dan Espen

Re: What's the best linux distro?

<87czpvj560.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>

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From: invalid@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 22:45:59 +0100
Organization: terraraq NNTP server
Message-ID: <87czpvj560.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 21:45 UTC

Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>>>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I never said systemd is easy to understand. It would be a lie. But
>>>>>>>> saying SysV is easy would be a lie too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Funny you should say systemd is not easy to understand. I can't
>>>>>>> imagine a simpler system. One file type for configuration with the
>>>>>>> simplest syntax possible, and just a few keywords to know about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A simple config file syntax doesn’t make a system easy to understand.
>>>>>> There are thousands of lines of man pages containing over 160 options,
>>>>>> with an implementation exceeding half a million lines of C. It’s not
>>>>>> badly documented, but it’s a complex system and it’s silly to pretend
>>>>>> there’s no learning curve here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where is the user interface? With initd, it's that pile of scripts,
>>>>> each one a custom creation and a forest of symbolic links.
>>>>> Where is the learning curve compared to systemd's simple config file
>>>>> syntax?
>>>>
>>>> I have no idea why you’re focussing on the config file syntax, since
>>>> there’s a lot more to systemd (or any nontrivial init) than that.
>>>
>>> It's the only visible user interface.
>>
>> systemd.syntax is tiny indeed, but if that’s all someone reads they will
>> still have no idea how to write or interpret a unit file.
>
> "No idea"? Hardly.
> Have you looked?

Yes, I have written a number.

> They seem pretty straight forward to me.

Go on then, explain how to write a unit file that actually does
something useful, using only information in `man systemd.syntax`.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: What's the best linux distro?

<iogtvhxosb.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7451&group=comp.os.linux.misc#7451

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 01:10:42 +0200
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 23:10 UTC

On 29/08/2021 23.45, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I never said systemd is easy to understand. It would be a lie. But
>>>>>>>>> saying SysV is easy would be a lie too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Funny you should say systemd is not easy to understand. I can't
>>>>>>>> imagine a simpler system. One file type for configuration with the
>>>>>>>> simplest syntax possible, and just a few keywords to know about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A simple config file syntax doesn’t make a system easy to understand.
>>>>>>> There are thousands of lines of man pages containing over 160 options,
>>>>>>> with an implementation exceeding half a million lines of C. It’s not
>>>>>>> badly documented, but it’s a complex system and it’s silly to pretend
>>>>>>> there’s no learning curve here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where is the user interface? With initd, it's that pile of scripts,
>>>>>> each one a custom creation and a forest of symbolic links.
>>>>>> Where is the learning curve compared to systemd's simple config file
>>>>>> syntax?
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no idea why you’re focussing on the config file syntax, since
>>>>> there’s a lot more to systemd (or any nontrivial init) than that.
>>>>
>>>> It's the only visible user interface.
>>>
>>> systemd.syntax is tiny indeed, but if that’s all someone reads they will
>>> still have no idea how to write or interpret a unit file.
>>
>> "No idea"? Hardly.
>> Have you looked?
>
> Yes, I have written a number.
>
>> They seem pretty straight forward to me.
>
> Go on then, explain how to write a unit file that actually does
> something useful, using only information in `man systemd.syntax`.
>

I don't. I look at existing files.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

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