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computers / comp.sys.raspberry-pi / Re: Pi as main storage and server.

SubjectAuthor
* Pi as main storage and server.The Natural Philosopher
+* Re: Pi as main storage and server.Theo
|+* Re: Pi as main storage and server.Andy Burns
||`- Re: Pi as main storage and server.Theo
|`* Re: Pi as main storage and server.The Natural Philosopher
| `* Re: Pi as main storage and server.Theo
|  +- Re: Pi as main storage and server.The Natural Philosopher
|  `* Re: Pi as main storage and server.Chris Elvidge
|   +- Re: Pi as main storage and server.The Natural Philosopher
|   +- Re: Pi as main storage and server.Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|   `- Re: Pi as main storage and server.Theo
+* Re: Pi as main storage and server.NY
|+* Re: Pi as main storage and server.NY
||`* Re: Pi as main storage and server.Jim Jackson
|| +- Re: Pi as main storage and server.NY
|| `* Re: Pi as main storage and server.The Natural Philosopher
||  `- Re: Pi as main storage and server.druck
|`- Re: Pi as main storage and server.The Natural Philosopher
+* Re: Pi as main storage and server.Pancho
|+* Re: Pi as main storage and server.The Natural Philosopher
||`* Re: Pi as main storage and server.Theo
|| `* Re: Pi as main storage and server.The Natural Philosopher
||  +* Re: Pi as main storage and server.Theo
||  |+- Re: Pi as main storage and server.The Natural Philosopher
||  |+* Re: Pi as main storage and server.Chris Green
||  ||`* Re: Pi as main storage and server.Jim Jackson
||  || `- Re: Pi as main storage and server.The Natural Philosopher
||  |+* Re: Pi as main storage and server.Michael Schwingen
||  ||`* Re: Pi as main storage and server.The Natural Philosopher
||  || `- Re: Pi as main storage and server.Michael Schwingen
||  |`* Re: Pi as main storage and server.druck
||  | +* Re: Pi as main storage and server.The Natural Philosopher
||  | |`* Re: Pi as main storage and server.druck
||  | | `- Re: Pi as main storage and server.The Natural Philosopher
||  | `* Re: Pi as main storage and server.Michael Schwingen
||  |  `- Re: Pi as main storage and server.The Natural Philosopher
||  `* Re: Pi as main storage and server.Pancho
||   `* Re: Pi as main storage and server.The Natural Philosopher
||    `* Re: Pi as main storage and server.Pancho
||     +- Re: Pi as main storage and server.TimS
||     `* Re: Pi as main storage and server.The Natural Philosopher
||      `* Re: Pi as main storage and server.Computer Nerd Kev
||       `* Re: Pi as main storage and server.Computer Nerd Kev
||        `- Re: Pi as main storage and server.Michael Schwingen
|`* Re: Pi as main storage and server.Jim Jackson
| `- Re: Pi as main storage and server.Pancho
`* Re: Pi as main storage and server.Chris Green
 `- Re: Pi as main storage and server.The Natural Philosopher

Pages:12
Pi as main storage and server.

<uf69sc$7v4a$1@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 11:45:31 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Fri, 29 Sep 2023 10:45 UTC

Currently my house server is x86, linux and mostly standard Linux Mint.

It is power hungry and old and runs a 2TB SATA drive as its main data
store and a 4TB SATA drive as its backup area, and a repository for
un-backed up videos

The drives are western digital 3.5" SATA

WDC WD20EFRX-68EUZN0 (82.00A82)
WDC WD40EZRZ-00GXCB0 (80.00A80)

It probably doesnt need that much.

Totting up the partitions its only 2.6TB total. of which 1.6TB is simply
videos that dont really need backing up at all

What I would like to do is have something that boots faster after a
power cut, has far lower power consumption, and if it cant use the SATA
drives has something reasonably cheap to replace them with.

I think a 2TB + 2TB setup is more than i need, 2 + 1 more than adequate
probably.

So some of the known unknowns are:
1/. How much power is used by the spinning rust, when most of the time
its idle? I find three figures quoted, active, idle and sleeping. Around
6-7W active and a couple of watts spinning
2/. How does Linux (Mint) operate disks which are seldom accessed?
3/. What is the power consumption of a typical SSD? I have seen figures
as low as 50mW idle. And a couple of watts on read /write
4/. How could I connect any disks that are not USB, to a PI?

I've looked at the current hardware and its basically

Intel® Core™2 Duo CPU E6850 @ 3.00GHz × 2 - about 75W!!!
GeForce 210/PCIe/SSE2 which is another 25W or so, so it looks like that
combo is dominating the power draw stakes.

Currently UK electricity is around £0.35p a kWh, so an annual
consumption is roughly £3 per watt per year.

Saving 100W would net me £300 a year electricity savings (well almost -
the server is a great room heater in winter)

Disk speed is essential to have except for booting. As I mentioned
fscking a big server after a power cut is a long process. I'd probably
boot off an SD card and mount something else for everything that moves
so to speak. So USB interfaces to the SATA drives would probably work.

CPU power is not an issue. I could probably do this with a Pi
Zero+Ethernet or an early Pi with onboard. I only have a 100Mbps
switch, so networks speeds are not massively needed to be high.

I am guessing that for spinning rust drives, a powered USB hub plus USB
to SATA cables would work?

And might be enough to power a Pi as well?

I am not au fait with powered hubs, and what powers what in the case of
usb ports that are connected together both with power.

Having looked at the actual power figures I am leaning towards - as a
first step, t any rate - simply trying to use the disks but dump the
motherboard and graphics board and the PC case - or at least use them
for something else on a more occasional basis.

Conceptually that would mean a powered hub, two USB to SATA cables, and
an Ethernet equipped PI with at least 2GB RAM - it is nice to sometimes
run a GUI on the server, though if I dumped that probably 512M would be
enough. It looks like a zero with an ethernet + 3USB hat would do the
job cheapest...

What have I misunderstood/forgotten?

--
It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
for the voice of the kingdom.

Jonathan Swift

Re: Pi as main storage and server.

<-Gb*1YArz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

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From: theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: 29 Sep 2023 12:19:51 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
Message-ID: <-Gb*1YArz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
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Originator: theom@chiark.greenend.org.uk ([212.13.197.229])
 by: Theo - Fri, 29 Sep 2023 11:19 UTC

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Currently my house server is x86, linux and mostly standard Linux Mint.
>
> It is power hungry and old and runs a 2TB SATA drive as its main data
> store and a 4TB SATA drive as its backup area, and a repository for
> un-backed up videos
....
> So some of the known unknowns are:
> 1/. How much power is used by the spinning rust, when most of the time
> its idle? I find three figures quoted, active, idle and sleeping. Around
> 6-7W active and a couple of watts spinning

For some data points, I have a couple of HP Gen7 microservers. I think they
take sub 20W on their own.

Box A (N54L) has 6x 3.5" HDD, an HP RAID card and a USB 3 card. Takes ~100W
idle.

Box B (N36L) has 4x 3.5" HDD, a DVD burner and no PCIe cards. Takes ~40W
idle

So looking at box B we might budget about 5W per drive. I'm not sure where
the watts go: in one of them (don't remember which) there's an 80Plus bronze
Seasonic PSU, but maybe the HP PSU in the other one isn't so good.

> 2/. How does Linux (Mint) operate disks which are seldom accessed?

Depends on the FS, but it shouldn't use them if not accessed. One thing to
watch is for software that does background indexing to make file searching
faster - one such is 'xapian'. I never use desktop search (just 'find' and
'grep') so I turn this off.

> 3/. What is the power consumption of a typical SSD? I have seen figures
> as low as 50mW idle. And a couple of watts on read /write

Sounds plausible. If it's idle it's doing nothing really.

> 4/. How could I connect any disks that are not USB, to a PI?

Either a USB-SATA adapter. Or PCIe - the Pi 5's PCIe lane looks promising
for a future PCIe SATA HAT. Going direct to SATA from PCIe is more robust
than going through $5 Chinese USB-SATA adapters.

> Disk speed is essential to have except for booting. As I mentioned
> fscking a big server after a power cut is a long process. I'd probably
> boot off an SD card and mount something else for everything that moves
> so to speak. So USB interfaces to the SATA drives would probably work.

On the Pi 5 each USB port has dedicated bandwidth, whereas on the Pi 4 they
are shared. HDD won't saturate a USB3 port, but SSD will.

> I am guessing that for spinning rust drives, a powered USB hub plus USB
> to SATA cables would work?

Yes.

> And might be enough to power a Pi as well?

If the PSU is big enough, don't see why not. Although the hub may limit the
output power on a given port.

> I am not au fait with powered hubs, and what powers what in the case of
> usb ports that are connected together both with power.

Depends on what the Pi does for power routing, I'm not sure about current
versions.

> Having looked at the actual power figures I am leaning towards - as a
> first step, t any rate - simply trying to use the disks but dump the
> motherboard and graphics board and the PC case - or at least use them
> for something else on a more occasional basis.

Have you considered just getting a big SSD? A 4TB Crucial P3 M.2 NVMe is
£150, a Samsung 870 QVO SATA is £168:
https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/products/internal-hard-drive/#A=3200000000000,22000000000000&sort=price&t=0

Or similar for multiple smaller drives.

Then use a SATA to USB or NVMe to USB dongle. Or a CM4 or Pi 5 with an M.2
HAT.

> Conceptually that would mean a powered hub, two USB to SATA cables, and
> an Ethernet equipped PI with at least 2GB RAM - it is nice to sometimes
> run a GUI on the server, though if I dumped that probably 512M would be
> enough. It looks like a zero with an ethernet + 3USB hat would do the
> job cheapest...

You can't fit USB 3 to a Pi Zero, so you'd be limited to <60Mbytes/s on the
single USB 2, and that would be shared with the ethernet too. Pi 4, CM4 or
Pi 5 are the only sensible platforms if you want decent bandwidth.

> What have I misunderstood/forgotten?

I think the Pi 5 is looking as an excellent platform for this sort of thing
- they've finally ironed out the I/O quirks of the earlier models, and PCIe
is attractive. The PCIe HAT ecosystem hasn't developed yet, so I might be
tempted to postpone this for a few months and see what happens - or think of
a stopgap solution.

Theo
(who is thinking of replacing the Microserver motherboard with a Pi 5 + SATA
HAT when such appear)

Re: Pi as main storage and server.

<knnqkrFpa4sU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: usenet@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 12:27:23 +0100
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 by: Andy Burns - Fri, 29 Sep 2023 11:27 UTC

Theo wrote:

> I think the Pi 5 is looking as an excellent platform for this sort of
> thing - they've finally ironed out the I/O quirks of the earlier models,
> and PCIe is attractive. The PCIe HAT ecosystem hasn't developed yet, so
> I might be tempted to postpone this for a few months and see what
> happens - or think of a stopgap solution.

Biggish USB3 SATA drive(s) for now, later get an M.2 hat for faster NVMe
boot drive?

Re: Pi as main storage and server.

<+Gb*z1Arz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

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From: theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: 29 Sep 2023 12:30:46 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
Message-ID: <+Gb*z1Arz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
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Originator: theom@chiark.greenend.org.uk ([212.13.197.229])
 by: Theo - Fri, 29 Sep 2023 11:30 UTC

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Theo wrote:
>
> > I think the Pi 5 is looking as an excellent platform for this sort of
> > thing - they've finally ironed out the I/O quirks of the earlier models,
> > and PCIe is attractive. The PCIe HAT ecosystem hasn't developed yet, so
> > I might be tempted to postpone this for a few months and see what
> > happens - or think of a stopgap solution.
>
> Biggish USB3 SATA drive(s) for now, later get an M.2 hat for faster NVMe
> boot drive?

I think it's a good plan for a NAS to separate the boot drive from the data
drives. So whether you do that with an SD card or an SSD is up to you,
depends on what you're going to use it for.

You could use a USB SSD for boot drive, and then an M.2 for a data drive, as
another possibility.

Theo

Re: Pi as main storage and server.

<uf6fju$93cd$1@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 13:23:25 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Fri, 29 Sep 2023 12:23 UTC

On 29/09/2023 12:19, Theo wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Currently my house server is x86, linux and mostly standard Linux Mint.
>>
>> It is power hungry and old and runs a 2TB SATA drive as its main data
>> store and a 4TB SATA drive as its backup area, and a repository for
>> un-backed up videos
> ...
>> So some of the known unknowns are:
>> 1/. How much power is used by the spinning rust, when most of the time
>> its idle? I find three figures quoted, active, idle and sleeping. Around
>> 6-7W active and a couple of watts spinning
>
> For some data points, I have a couple of HP Gen7 microservers. I think they
> take sub 20W on their own.
>
> Box A (N54L) has 6x 3.5" HDD, an HP RAID card and a USB 3 card. Takes ~100W
> idle.
>
> Box B (N36L) has 4x 3.5" HDD, a DVD burner and no PCIe cards. Takes ~40W
> idle
>
> So looking at box B we might budget about 5W per drive. I'm not sure where
> the watts go: in one of them (don't remember which) there's an 80Plus bronze
> Seasonic PSU, but maybe the HP PSU in the other one isn't so good.
>
>> 2/. How does Linux (Mint) operate disks which are seldom accessed?
>
> Depends on the FS, but it shouldn't use them if not accessed. One thing to
> watch is for software that does background indexing to make file searching
> faster - one such is 'xapian'. I never use desktop search (just 'find' and
> 'grep') so I turn this off.
>
>> 3/. What is the power consumption of a typical SSD? I have seen figures
>> as low as 50mW idle. And a couple of watts on read /write
>
> Sounds plausible. If it's idle it's doing nothing really.
>
>> 4/. How could I connect any disks that are not USB, to a PI?
>
> Either a USB-SATA adapter. Or PCIe - the Pi 5's PCIe lane looks promising
> for a future PCIe SATA HAT. Going direct to SATA from PCIe is more robust
> than going through $5 Chinese USB-SATA adapters.
>
>> Disk speed is essential to have except for booting. As I mentioned
>> fscking a big server after a power cut is a long process. I'd probably
>> boot off an SD card and mount something else for everything that moves
>> so to speak. So USB interfaces to the SATA drives would probably work.
>
> On the Pi 5 each USB port has dedicated bandwidth, whereas on the Pi 4 they
> are shared. HDD won't saturate a USB3 port, but SSD will.
>
>> I am guessing that for spinning rust drives, a powered USB hub plus USB
>> to SATA cables would work?
>
> Yes.
>
>> And might be enough to power a Pi as well?
>
> If the PSU is big enough, don't see why not. Although the hub may limit the
> output power on a given port.
>
>> I am not au fait with powered hubs, and what powers what in the case of
>> usb ports that are connected together both with power.
>
> Depends on what the Pi does for power routing, I'm not sure about current
> versions.
>
>> Having looked at the actual power figures I am leaning towards - as a
>> first step, t any rate - simply trying to use the disks but dump the
>> motherboard and graphics board and the PC case - or at least use them
>> for something else on a more occasional basis.
>
> Have you considered just getting a big SSD? A 4TB Crucial P3 M.2 NVMe is
> £150, a Samsung 870 QVO SATA is £168:
> https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/products/internal-hard-drive/#A=3200000000000,22000000000000&sort=price&t=0
>
> Or similar for multiple smaller drives.
>
> Then use a SATA to USB or NVMe to USB dongle. Or a CM4 or Pi 5 with an M.2
> HAT.
>
>> Conceptually that would mean a powered hub, two USB to SATA cables, and
>> an Ethernet equipped PI with at least 2GB RAM - it is nice to sometimes
>> run a GUI on the server, though if I dumped that probably 512M would be
>> enough. It looks like a zero with an ethernet + 3USB hat would do the
>> job cheapest...
>
> You can't fit USB 3 to a Pi Zero, so you'd be limited to <60Mbytes/s on the
> single USB 2, and that would be shared with the ethernet too. Pi 4, CM4 or
> Pi 5 are the only sensible platforms if you want decent bandwidth.
>
>> What have I misunderstood/forgotten?
>
> I think the Pi 5 is looking as an excellent platform for this sort of thing
> - they've finally ironed out the I/O quirks of the earlier models, and PCIe
> is attractive. The PCIe HAT ecosystem hasn't developed yet, so I might be
> tempted to postpone this for a few months and see what happens - or think of
> a stopgap solution.
>
> Theo
> (who is thinking of replacing the Microserver motherboard with a Pi 5 + SATA
> HAT when such appear)

Ah Theo, excellent and well appreciated comments. I dont need speed.
But looking at a Pi Zero +ethernet hat +USB extenders, you make the
point that it all goes over the one USB connector and not a fast one at
that.

>You can't fit USB 3 to a Pi Zero, so you'd be limited to <60Mbytes/s
on the
> single USB 2, and that would be shared with the ethernet too.

The question is, is that actually more than good enough anyway?

In most use cases I will be backing up from the Internet at 5MByte/s
max, or serving data over 100Mbps (12.5MByte/sec) Ethernet, so at first
glance it looks like its not a serious issue, although the sharing of
the same bus between ethernet and disk does raise some question marks .

I.e can a USB2 bus support reading off a disk and pumping out to a
network simultaneously at 100Mbps?

I have discovered that there exist *powered* usb to SATA *cables* that
run off 12V and those would work OK . I could hack them to run off an
old PC case+PSU I have that would also be a decent cradle for the SATA
drives.

The problem is a PI 4 or 5 costs more than a Zero, plus ethernet/USB
HAT and yet still cannot power a 3.5" spinning rust drive over its USB.

I get would CPU memory and bus speed that I may actually not need...My
current RAM usage WITH Mate and X-Windows is only 650Mbyte. If I went
headless I doubt that it would be much greater than my ZERO W at 55MBytes

As far as SSDs are concerned, *once booted* I don't have any speed
issues with my existing rust. They remain a 'nice to have one day' option

--
“Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

Dennis Miller

Re: Pi as main storage and server.

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From: theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: 29 Sep 2023 14:10:28 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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 by: Theo - Fri, 29 Sep 2023 13:10 UTC

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 29/09/2023 12:19, Theo wrote:
>
> >You can't fit USB 3 to a Pi Zero, so you'd be limited to <60Mbytes/s
> on the
> > single USB 2, and that would be shared with the ethernet too.
>
> The question is, is that actually more than good enough anyway?
>
> In most use cases I will be backing up from the Internet at 5MByte/s
> max, or serving data over 100Mbps (12.5MByte/sec) Ethernet, so at first
> glance it looks like its not a serious issue, although the sharing of
> the same bus between ethernet and disk does raise some question marks .
>
> I.e can a USB2 bus support reading off a disk and pumping out to a
> network simultaneously at 100Mbps?

I can't comment on the simultaneously question - I'm sure there's info about
that out there - but what would irritate me is that disk speed *inside* the
box would also be slow. eg if you wanted to copy something from disc 1 to
disc 2, that's subject to the USB2 bottleneck (~25Mbytes a sec after USB
overhead and because you have to transfer the data over USB twice). If
you're searching files, you need to pull them all over USB 2. And so on.

Once you start going multi-TB, at these speeds jobs start stacking up into
the hours or days, and that gets irritating.

> I have discovered that there exist *powered* usb to SATA *cables* that
> run off 12V and those would work OK . I could hack them to run off an
> old PC case+PSU I have that would also be a decent cradle for the SATA
> drives.
>
> The problem is a PI 4 or 5 costs more than a Zero, plus ethernet/USB
> HAT and yet still cannot power a 3.5" spinning rust drive over its USB.

You didn't mention cost concerns, beyond being saving your electricity bill.
Up to you, but any Pi is going to buy you a big saving in electricity every
year. How much price/performance you want at this point is your choice.
But the delta to get much better performance is not huge.

No 3.5" USB HDD is powered from its USB, since they need 12V. They all have
external PSUs. A 2.5" HDD can run from 5V USB bus power, but not 3.5".

> As far as SSDs are concerned, *once booted* I don't have any speed
> issues with my existing rust. They remain a 'nice to have one day' option

Your existing rust is likely on 6Gbps SATA3, and you're proposing going to
something 12-25x slower (although the HDD likely can't saturate SATA3 for
long periods so it's not quite so bad). Your decision whether that matters
to you.

Theo

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 16:09:27 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Fri, 29 Sep 2023 15:09 UTC

On 29/09/2023 14:10, Theo wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 29/09/2023 12:19, Theo wrote:
>>
>> >You can't fit USB 3 to a Pi Zero, so you'd be limited to <60Mbytes/s
>> on the
>> > single USB 2, and that would be shared with the ethernet too.
>>
>> The question is, is that actually more than good enough anyway?
>>
>> In most use cases I will be backing up from the Internet at 5MByte/s
>> max, or serving data over 100Mbps (12.5MByte/sec) Ethernet, so at first
>> glance it looks like its not a serious issue, although the sharing of
>> the same bus between ethernet and disk does raise some question marks .
>>
>> I.e can a USB2 bus support reading off a disk and pumping out to a
>> network simultaneously at 100Mbps?
>
> I can't comment on the simultaneously question - I'm sure there's info about
> that out there - but what would irritate me is that disk speed *inside* the
> box would also be slow. eg if you wanted to copy something from disc 1 to
> disc 2, that's subject to the USB2 bottleneck (~25Mbytes a sec after USB
> overhead and because you have to transfer the data over USB twice). If
> you're searching files, you need to pull them all over USB 2. And so on.
>
Ah, right. Yes that's a case I didn't cover. In my application, which
has evolved over the years, that is simply a rsync backup - one disk is
simply there in case the main disk suffers hardware failure and is based
on bad experiences from running servers over the years - that disks
used a lot fail. Especially if subjected to flaky power and disks used
less dont.

The cost of a second disk that only gets activity once a night during
backup is a lot less than a UPS and is the only thing that will protect
against a drive that dies from old age to the point of unreadability.

It doesn't have to be fast

E.g although I back up TERABYTES, typically backing up the changes only
takes less than two minutes

> Once you start going multi-TB, at these speeds jobs start stacking up into
> the hours or days, and that gets irritating.
>
Well yes, to fully restore a backup drive when the last one failed took
about 5 hours

But that is a very rare event

>> I have discovered that there exist *powered* usb to SATA *cables* that
>> run off 12V and those would work OK . I could hack them to run off an
>> old PC case+PSU I have that would also be a decent cradle for the SATA
>> drives.
>>
>> The problem is a PI 4 or 5 costs more than a Zero, plus ethernet/USB
>> HAT and yet still cannot power a 3.5" spinning rust drive over its USB.
>
> You didn't mention cost concerns, beyond being saving your electricity bill.
> Up to you, but any Pi is going to buy you a big saving in electricity every
> year. How much price/performance you want at this point is your choice.
> But the delta to get much better performance is not huge.

I fully agree with THAT, but the point really is what is the point of
performance I never use?

My desktops need the power far far more than the server. They are my
compile engines and where I process video files etc etc.
You don't buy a Ferrari *just* to go to the supermarket...

>
> No 3.5" USB HDD is powered from its USB, since they need 12V. They all have
> external PSUs. A 2.5" HDD can run from 5V USB bus power, but not 3.5".
>
Ah, ok . Hence the 'powered adapter' . It all begins to make sense.

>> As far as SSDs are concerned, *once booted* I don't have any speed
>> issues with my existing rust. They remain a 'nice to have one day' option
>
> Your existing rust is likely on 6Gbps SATA3, and you're proposing going to
> something 12-25x slower (although the HDD likely can't saturate SATA3 for
> long periods so it's not quite so bad). Your decision whether that matters
> to you.
>
I think they are in fact 3GBps SATA 3 - I cant remember which mobo is in
there - I think I got given that mobo and case for nothing as it was a
trade in on an early winXP machine :-) - but all the boads I have saved
data on are 3GBPs SATA 3

It's cost me more in electricity than it ever did to buy

But the disks are:
"Maximum interface speed 600 MB/s
Maximum buffered read speed 428 MB/s
Maximum read speed 197 MB/s"

Is that bytes/second or bits/second?

Which again shows the pointlessness of high speed connections to
bottlenecks :-)

Although I DO take the point that if that is the raw disk speed going
down to a 64MB/s shared USB2 bus is pretty crap

Well nothing short of a Pi 4B has USB3 does it?

Hence why you think it would suit.

Out of stock at my usual vendor, but price is not so bad

Could double as a wifi access point, too. :-)

Hmm. On balance that is so little more than a zero with hat its probably
worth it

If I can get a 1GB model cheap

Thanks for the thoughts

> Theo

--
"An intellectual is a person knowledgeable in one field who speaks out
only in others...”

Tom Wolfe

Re: Pi as main storage and server.

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From: chris@mshome.net (Chris Elvidge)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 17:01:31 +0100
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 by: Chris Elvidge - Fri, 29 Sep 2023 16:01 UTC

On 29/09/2023 14:10, Theo wrote:
> No 3.5" USB HDD is powered from its USB, since they need 12V. They all have
> external PSUs. A 2.5" HDD can run from 5V USB bus power, but not 3.5".

2.5" HDDs - not always true.
I had a 4Gb Seagate the ran fine from USB on a Pi3B. When I changed to a
5Tb WD, I had to add in external power (via a Y-cable).

--
Chris Elvidge, England
I WILL REMEMBER TO TAKE MY MEDICATION

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 17:42:56 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Fri, 29 Sep 2023 16:42 UTC

On 29/09/2023 17:01, Chris Elvidge wrote:
> On 29/09/2023 14:10, Theo wrote:
>> No 3.5" USB HDD is powered from its USB, since they need 12V.  They
>> all have
>> external PSUs.  A 2.5" HDD can run from 5V USB bus power, but not 3.5".
>
> 2.5" HDDs - not always true.
> I had a 4Gb Seagate the ran fine from USB on a Pi3B. When I changed to a
> 5Tb WD, I had to add in external power (via a Y-cable).
>
>
I feel that the Pis power supply limits to its peripherals are one of
its most poor features.
One feels one ought to be able to bang a 50W psu on a pi and not have issues

--
The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

Anon.

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Fri, 29 Sep 2023 17:14 UTC

On Fri, 29 Sep 2023 17:01:31 +0100
Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:

> On 29/09/2023 14:10, Theo wrote:
> > No 3.5" USB HDD is powered from its USB, since they need 12V. They all
> > have external PSUs. A 2.5" HDD can run from 5V USB bus power, but not
> > 3.5".
>
> 2.5" HDDs - not always true.

Especially if you use one of the 15Krpm screamers made for high
performance storage arrays just before NVMe SSDs took over.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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From: theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: 29 Sep 2023 19:15:08 +0100 (BST)
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 by: Theo - Fri, 29 Sep 2023 18:15 UTC

Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:
> On 29/09/2023 14:10, Theo wrote:
> > No 3.5" USB HDD is powered from its USB, since they need 12V. They all
> > have external PSUs. A 2.5" HDD can run from 5V USB bus power, but not
> > 3.5".
>
> 2.5" HDDs - not always true.
> I had a 4Gb Seagate the ran fine from USB on a Pi3B. When I changed to a
> 5Tb WD, I had to add in external power (via a Y-cable).

It *can*, but not all USB ports have enough bus power. In that case you
need a powered hub to provide more bus power.

Point being a 3.5" *can't*, because they use 12V power and USB hubs don't
provide that (maybe a USB-C PD hub could, but I doubt any HDD are built that
way).

Theo

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 by: NY - Fri, 29 Sep 2023 19:56 UTC

On 29/09/2023 11:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Currently my house server is x86, linux and mostly standard Linux Mint.
>
> It is power hungry and old and runs a 2TB SATA drive as its main data
> store and a 4TB SATA drive as its backup area, and a repository for
> un-backed up videos

> I am not au fait with powered hubs, and what powers what in the case of
> usb ports that are connected together both with power.

Beware if you use a powered hub. My Pi 4 refuses to boot (it hangs
before even displaying anything on screen) if I have a powered USB hub
and HDD connected to it, and the Pi, hub and HDD are powered on
simultaneously (eg when power is restored after a power cut). If the hub
and HDD are powered on first, and the Pi 4 a couple of seconds later,
everything is fine. My older Pi 3 did not have this problem.

I had to change to a powered USB/SATA caddy and a SATA drive, rather
than a powered USB hub and a USB HDD.

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 by: NY - Fri, 29 Sep 2023 20:34 UTC

On 29/09/2023 20:56, NY wrote:
> On 29/09/2023 11:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> Currently my house server is x86, linux and mostly standard Linux Mint.
>>
>> It is power hungry and old and runs a 2TB SATA drive as its main data
>> store and a 4TB SATA drive as its backup area, and a repository for
>> un-backed up videos
>
>> I am not au fait with powered hubs, and what powers what in the case
>> of usb ports that are connected together both with power.
>
> Beware if you use a powered hub. My Pi 4 refuses to boot (it hangs
> before even displaying anything on screen) if I have a powered USB hub
> and HDD connected to it, and the Pi, hub and HDD are powered on
> simultaneously (eg when power is restored after a power cut). If the hub
> and HDD are powered on first, and the Pi 4 a couple of seconds later,
> everything is fine. My older Pi 3 did not have this problem.
>
> I had to change to a powered USB/SATA caddy and a SATA drive, rather
> than a powered USB hub and a USB HDD.

Someone suggested that the Pi 4 didn't like the +5V line of one of its
USB ports being powered by an external source, if the hub feeds power
*upstream* to the Pi as well as downstream to the HDD. But that doesn't
explain the exact opposite which is what I see: the hub *not* being
powered at boot time. I did try making up a special USB cable with its
+5V line cut, but that did not help.

It was definitely an interaction with the hub, because if I plugged the
USB HDD directly into the Pi (*), or if I didn't plug the HDD in at all,
with an auto-mount command in /etc/fstab in both cases, it worked fine.
I suspect it was a hardware problem, long before Unix tried to mount the
drive.

(*) Don't do that as a long-term solution: the Pi runs *very* hot if you
try to power a spinning HDD from its USB ports. I found that out...

Re: Pi as main storage and server.

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From: Pancho.Jones@proton.me (Pancho)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 22:11:55 +0100
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 by: Pancho - Fri, 29 Sep 2023 21:11 UTC

On 29/09/2023 11:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Currently my house server is x86, linux and mostly standard Linux Mint.
>
> It is power hungry and old and runs a 2TB SATA drive as its main data
> store and a 4TB SATA drive as its backup area, and a repository for
> un-backed up videos
>
> The drives are western digital 3.5" SATA
>
> WDC WD20EFRX-68EUZN0 (82.00A82)
> WDC WD40EZRZ-00GXCB0 (80.00A80)
>
> It probably doesnt need that much.
>
> Totting up the partitions its only 2.6TB total. of which 1.6TB is simply
> videos that dont really need backing up at all
>
> What I would like to do is have something that boots faster after a
> power cut,  has far lower power consumption, and if it cant use the SATA
> drives has something reasonably cheap to replace them with.
>
> I think a 2TB + 2TB setup is more than i need, 2 + 1 more than adequate
> probably.
>
> So some of the known unknowns are:
> 1/. How much power is used by the spinning rust, when most of the time
> its idle? I find three figures quoted, active, idle and sleeping. Around
> 6-7W active and a couple of watts spinning

They require a lot of power to spin up. That pretty much dictates they
cannot be powered from the rPi USB, even a 2.5" hdd requires a
separately powered USB to SATA connector.

> 2/. How does Linux (Mint) operate disks which are seldom accessed?

I assume it spins them down. I've been abusing a laptop 2.5" hdd for
years, mainly used to write rsnapshot backups.

> 3/. What is the power consumption of a typical SSD? I have seen figures
> as low as 50mW idle. And a couple of watts on read /write

It's low enough, not to matter.

> 4/. How could I connect any disks that are not USB, to a PI?
>

AIUI spinning rust does not use a huge amount of power normally, when
spinning, but does require a lot of power to spin up. There was some
discussion of an SSD and HDD being equivalent power for constant access,
I'm not sure if I believe that, but whatever it is only a few watts.
SSDs are clearly more power efficient for occasional access.

I have used a rpi4 as a NAS since a couple of weeks after it was
released. It is surprisingly unproblematic. I use SAMBA. I did remote
desk benchmarking, showing I was getting 80 or 90% of the 1Gb/s network
speed.

I've used various USB2SATA cables. Unpowered for only SSD, powered for HDD.

Currently, I'm using this:

<https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0B217QRWJ>

Supposedly handles 3.5" hdd (although I use 1 ssd + 1 2.5 hdd)

In the past I used
<https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01EQ7PNZY>
<https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01N2JIQR7>

> I've looked at the current  hardware and its basically
>
> Intel® Core™2 Duo CPU E6850 @ 3.00GHz × 2 - about 75W!!!
> GeForce 210/PCIe/SSE2 which is another 25W or so, so it looks like that
> combo is dominating the power draw stakes.
>
> Currently UK electricity is around £0.35p a kWh, so an annual
> consumption is roughly £3 per watt per year.
>
> Saving 100W would net me £300 a year electricity savings (well almost -
> the server is a great room heater in winter)
>
> Disk speed is essential to have except for booting. As I mentioned
> fscking a big server after a power cut is a long  process. I'd probably
> boot off an SD card and  mount something else for everything that moves
> so to speak. So USB interfaces to the SATA drives would probably work.
>

My rPi4 does boot slowly, off SD, but I have 5 docker containers running
on it as well as the NAS, including CCTV.

> CPU power is not an issue. I could probably do this with a Pi
> Zero+Ethernet  or an early Pi with onboard.  I only have a 100Mbps
> switch, so networks speeds are not massively needed to be high.
>

100Mb/s is slow for disk access. 1Gb/s switches are dirt cheap, and a
modern one will also be lower power.

Re: Pi as main storage and server.

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From: jj@franjam.org.uk (Jim Jackson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 21:21:39 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jim Jackson - Fri, 29 Sep 2023 21:21 UTC

On 2023-09-29, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> It was definitely an interaction with the hub, because if I plugged the
> USB HDD directly into the Pi (*), or if I didn't plug the HDD in at all,
> with an auto-mount command in /etc/fstab in both cases, it worked fine.
> I suspect it was a hardware problem, long before Unix tried to mount the
> drive.
>
>
> (*) Don't do that as a long-term solution: the Pi runs *very* hot if you
> try to power a spinning HDD from its USB ports. I found that out...

Does 3 years and counting of 24/7 mean I've killed my Pi :-)
My Pi powers a USB connected 2.5 spinning disk just fine.

Re: Pi as main storage and server.

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From: me@privacy.net (NY)
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
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 by: NY - Fri, 29 Sep 2023 21:50 UTC

On 29/09/2023 22:21, Jim Jackson wrote:
> On 2023-09-29, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>> It was definitely an interaction with the hub, because if I plugged the
>> USB HDD directly into the Pi (*), or if I didn't plug the HDD in at all,
>> with an auto-mount command in /etc/fstab in both cases, it worked fine.
>> I suspect it was a hardware problem, long before Unix tried to mount the
>> drive.
>>
>>
>> (*) Don't do that as a long-term solution: the Pi runs *very* hot if you
>> try to power a spinning HDD from its USB ports. I found that out...
>
> Does 3 years and counting of 24/7 mean I've killed my Pi :-)
> My Pi powers a USB connected 2.5 spinning disk just fine.

Is your Pi in a case? Mine is, in a case without a CPU fan, which will
limit the cooling from the heatsink a bit. I stopped powering the HDD
from the Pi when I smelled hot plastic case... Admittedly the Pi and the
disk are kept in a cupboard of a cabinet on which the TV stands, so the
enclosed space in the cabinet gets a little bit warm.

With the HDD powered by a USB/SATA caddy adjacent to the Pi in its case,
the Pi's CPU runs at about 60 deg C. Not sure what it got up to when the
HDD was powered by the Pi.

Re: Pi as main storage and server.

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From: cl@isbd.net (Chris Green)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2023 09:50:54 +0100
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 by: Chris Green - Sat, 30 Sep 2023 08:50 UTC

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Currently my house server is x86, linux and mostly standard Linux Mint.
>
> It is power hungry and old and runs a 2TB SATA drive as its main data
> store and a 4TB SATA drive as its backup area, and a repository for
> un-backed up videos
>
I have/had something similar. However the computer I use is a Fujitsu
Esprimo P9xx which consumes only around 15 watts when idle. If you
shop around and look at the 'Energy Star' listings you can find even
lower power 'desktop' machines nowadays. Some of the newer Fujitsu
machines use less than 10 watts and yet have all the things you want
like NVME disk drive ability, SATA, etc. You also get a box to put it
all in! :-)

I currently have an external 8Tb USB3 drive which powers down when
idle.

I have several Raspberry Pis but I don't think they make particularly
good NAS/Backup machines.

....oh, almost forgot, you can get refurbished Fujitsu Esprimos (lots
of different models) quite cheaply.

--
Chris Green
·

Re: Pi as main storage and server.

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2023 11:23:02 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 30 Sep 2023 10:23 UTC

On 29/09/2023 20:56, NY wrote:
> On 29/09/2023 11:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> Currently my house server is x86, linux and mostly standard Linux Mint.
>>
>> It is power hungry and old and runs a 2TB SATA drive as its main data
>> store and a 4TB SATA drive as its backup area, and a repository for
>> un-backed up videos
>
>> I am not au fait with powered hubs, and what powers what in the case
>> of usb ports that are connected together both with power.
>
> Beware if you use a powered hub. My Pi 4 refuses to boot (it hangs
> before even displaying anything on screen) if I have a powered USB hub
> and HDD connected to it, and the Pi, hub and HDD are powered on
> simultaneously (eg when power is restored after a power cut). If the hub
> and HDD are powered on first, and the Pi 4 a couple of seconds later,
> everything is fine. My older Pi 3 did not have this problem.
>
> I had to change to a powered USB/SATA caddy and a SATA drive, rather
> than a powered USB hub and a USB HDD.
>
Yeah. In my case further acquisition of Knowledge™ has made the question
redundant. You can't apparently run (bare) 3.5inch drives off *just*
USB because they need 12V.

There exist USB to SATA cables that take a 12V power source. And that
looks to be a simpler solution.

--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

Re: Pi as main storage and server.

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2023 11:25:45 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 30 Sep 2023 10:25 UTC

On 29/09/2023 22:21, Jim Jackson wrote:
> On 2023-09-29, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>> It was definitely an interaction with the hub, because if I plugged the
>> USB HDD directly into the Pi (*), or if I didn't plug the HDD in at all,
>> with an auto-mount command in /etc/fstab in both cases, it worked fine.
>> I suspect it was a hardware problem, long before Unix tried to mount the
>> drive.
>>
>>
>> (*) Don't do that as a long-term solution: the Pi runs *very* hot if you
>> try to power a spinning HDD from its USB ports. I found that out...
>
> Does 3 years and counting of 24/7 mean I've killed my Pi :-)
> My Pi powers a USB connected 2.5 spinning disk just fine.

I think the answer would be 'it depends on the drive and if linux is
configured to spin down on idle' .
You are in effect powering an electric motor and the more friction there
is and the more rpms you want it to do. in general, the more power it
will need

--
“But what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an
hypothesis!”

Mary Wollstonecraft

Re: Pi as main storage and server.

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2023 11:39:30 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 30 Sep 2023 10:39 UTC

On 29/09/2023 22:11, Pancho wrote:
> On 29/09/2023 11:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
...
>> 2/. How does Linux (Mint) operate disks which are seldom accessed?
>
> I assume it spins them down. I've been abusing a laptop 2.5"  hdd for
> years, mainly used to write rsnapshot backups.
>
>> 3/. What is the power consumption of a typical SSD? I have seen
>> figures as low as 50mW idle. And a couple of watts on read /write
>
> It's low enough, not to matter.
>
>> 4/. How could I connect any disks that are not USB, to a PI?
>>
>
> AIUI spinning rust does not use a huge amount of power normally, when
> spinning, but does require a lot of power to spin up. There was some
> discussion of an SSD and HDD being equivalent power for constant access,
> I'm not sure if I believe that, but whatever it is only a few watts.
> SSDs are clearly more power efficient for occasional access.
>
> I have used a rpi4 as a NAS since a couple of weeks after it was
> released. It is surprisingly unproblematic. I use SAMBA. I did remote
> desk benchmarking, showing I was getting 80 or 90% of the 1Gb/s network
> speed.
>
> I've used various USB2SATA cables. Unpowered for only SSD, powered for HDD.
>
> Currently, I'm using this:
>
> <https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0B217QRWJ>
>
> Supposedly handles 3.5" hdd (although I use  1 ssd + 1 2.5 hdd)
>
> In the past I used
> <https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01EQ7PNZY>
> <https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01N2JIQR7>
>
Ah, that caddy looks neat.
...
>
> My rPi4 does boot slowly, off SD, but I have 5 docker containers running
> on it as well as the NAS, including CCTV.
>
>> CPU power is not an issue. I could probably do this with a Pi
>> Zero+Ethernet  or an early Pi with onboard.  I only have a 100Mbps
>> switch, so networks speeds are not massively needed to be high.
>>
>
> 100Mb/s is slow for disk access. 1Gb/s switches are dirt cheap, and a
> modern one will also be lower power.
>
Not a 1U rack mounted 16 port one. And not sure the house wiring is up
to it!
It is on my list of 'nice to haves' if i can come up with a decent cheap one

But its not a crashing essential - i can play HD videos OK over the
network and that's the fastest transfers I normally do...

>

--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell

Re: Pi as main storage and server.

<uf8uf9$qnpe$2@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2023 11:49:13 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 30 Sep 2023 10:49 UTC

On 30/09/2023 09:50, Chris Green wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Currently my house server is x86, linux and mostly standard Linux Mint.
>>
>> It is power hungry and old and runs a 2TB SATA drive as its main data
>> store and a 4TB SATA drive as its backup area, and a repository for
>> un-backed up videos
>>
> I have/had something similar. However the computer I use is a Fujitsu
> Esprimo P9xx which consumes only around 15 watts when idle. If you
> shop around and look at the 'Energy Star' listings you can find even
> lower power 'desktop' machines nowadays. Some of the newer Fujitsu
> machines use less than 10 watts and yet have all the things you want
> like NVME disk drive ability, SATA, etc. You also get a box to put it
> all in! :-)
>
> I currently have an external 8Tb USB3 drive which powers down when
> idle.
>
> I have several Raspberry Pis but I don't think they make particularly
> good NAS/Backup machines.
>
> ...oh, almost forgot, you can get refurbished Fujitsu Esprimos (lots
> of different models) quite cheaply.
>
That is an interesting thought. My newest desktop is an HP EliteDesk
running a core i5 and is rated at 37W. It for sure runs cooler than what
it replaced

The problem with the Esprimo is that it isn't in a case that will take
two 3.5"hdd
That rather why a Pi is preferred - I can maybe get an empty rack mount
case and fit everything in it.

But it is food for thought.

--
“A leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
“We did this ourselves.”

― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

Re: Pi as main storage and server.

<-Gb*LrGrz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

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From: theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: 30 Sep 2023 13:16:23 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
Message-ID: <-Gb*LrGrz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
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Originator: theom@chiark.greenend.org.uk ([212.13.197.229])
 by: Theo - Sat, 30 Sep 2023 12:16 UTC

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Not a 1U rack mounted 16 port one. And not sure the house wiring is up
> to it!
> It is on my list of 'nice to haves' if i can come up with a decent cheap one

On power consumption terms that switch must be hungry too. If it has a fan
it must be taking a good few watts.

I like the TP-Link Easy Smart range because you get extra features like port
mirroring and VLAN tagging. Going rate for a 16 port one on ebay about 30-60
quid, eg with PoE:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/155801541673?
and that takes max 8W plus whatever PoE loads you have.

If you've only wire 2 pairs per socket that will prevent doing gigabit
though.

Theo

Re: Pi as main storage and server.

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2023 15:03:51 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 30 Sep 2023 14:03 UTC

On 30/09/2023 13:16, Theo wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Not a 1U rack mounted 16 port one. And not sure the house wiring is up
>> to it!
>> It is on my list of 'nice to haves' if i can come up with a decent cheap one
>
> On power consumption terms that switch must be hungry too. If it has a fan
> it must be taking a good few watts.
>
> I like the TP-Link Easy Smart range because you get extra features like port
> mirroring and VLAN tagging. Going rate for a 16 port one on ebay about 30-60
> quid, eg with PoE:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/155801541673?
> and that takes max 8W plus whatever PoE loads you have.
>
> If you've only wire 2 pairs per socket that will prevent doing gigabit
> though.
>
> Theo
Oh no, me mate and I wired the whole house to full CAT5/structured
cabling standards . BUT that isn't necessarily good enough for gigabit.
Cable might have too much attenuation.

--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

Re: Pi as main storage and server.

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From: theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: 30 Sep 2023 17:22:38 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
Message-ID: <+Gb*tlHrz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
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 by: Theo - Sat, 30 Sep 2023 16:22 UTC

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Oh no, me mate and I wired the whole house to full CAT5/structured
> cabling standards . BUT that isn't necessarily good enough for gigabit.
> Cable might have too much attenuation.

Many domestic installations don't get anywhere near the 305m that's the max
in the ethernet spec. So you can get away with out of spec cabling because
the spec expects the attenuation from 305m but you only have 30m.

Try it and see? Patch a couple of ports together (without using a switch),
put a machine at each end and see if a gigabit link will come up and stably
pass traffic. You might be surprised.

Theo

Re: Pi as main storage and server.

<uf9lr9$11ijo$4@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Pi as main storage and server.
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2023 18:28:09 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 30 Sep 2023 17:28 UTC

On 30/09/2023 17:22, Theo wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Oh no, me mate and I wired the whole house to full CAT5/structured
>> cabling standards . BUT that isn't necessarily good enough for gigabit.
>> Cable might have too much attenuation.
>
> Many domestic installations don't get anywhere near the 305m that's the max
> in the ethernet spec. So you can get away with out of spec cabling because
> the spec expects the attenuation from 305m but you only have 30m.
>
> Try it and see? Patch a couple of ports together (without using a switch),
> put a machine at each end and see if a gigabit link will come up and stably
> pass traffic. You might be surprised.
>
yeah. Some of the links almost certainly would, But I checked the watts
on the one I have. Its pretty low - less than 20 - and I think I
wouldnt save much more than 10 watts.
And to find one that would physically fit was as much money as a PI4B or
more

So I am afraid Gigabit ethernet has been relegated to the 'nice to have,
some day' category

> Theo

--
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities.”

― Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles à M. Claparede, Professeur de
Théologie à Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de
M. de Voltaire

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