On 2023-09-27 05:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 26/09/2023 20:41, Björn Lundin wrote:
>> On 2023-09-26 16:28, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>> On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 13:56:13 +0100, Bob Latham wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm sure you're right, it would help if I had a Linux machine proper.
>>>>
>>> Take a look at eBay for used laptops,
>>
>>
>> Or thin clients.
>> I bought a Hp T510 and a fujitsu Futuro s720 for less than 20 euros
>> CPU like a RPI 4 but AMD or Via, 4 gb RAM and a very small Sata flash
>> (16 GB). But runs well with 2.5" hdd via usb (or sata)
>>
>> Runs Linux well, uses ubuntu. I also got a mini-mac, Core2Duo with 4
>> Gb ram for that kind of money. (30 euros I think)
>>
>> Also runs Ubuntu well
>>
>> Those above are 64-bit.
>> I got some very cheap 32 bits as well - running debian
>>
>>
>>
> Very good prices there.
>
> I am not sure I would trust a machine that cheap.

But you trust a 5 euro rpi zero with a cf-card?

These machine have no moving parts (fanless and flashdisk)
I stuck spare hdd in them.
But then again, they are part of my build farm, so they do not contain
anything that important, they get code from github when needed

The idea was to find x64 boxes that could build my system
with a small energy footprint. so I also scaled down the CPU, locked it
at 800 Mhz preventing it to go to 1.65 GHz

--
/Björn

On 26/09/2023 20:41, Björn Lundin wrote:

>
>
> Or thin clients.
> I bought a Hp T510 and a fujitsu Futuro s720 for less than 20 euros
> CPU like a RPI 4 but AMD or Via, 4 gb RAM and a very small Sata flash
> (16 GB). But runs well with 2.5" hdd via usb (or sata)
>
> Runs Linux well, uses ubuntu. I also got a mini-mac, Core2Duo with 4 Gb
> ram for that kind of money. (30 euros I think)
>
> Also runs Ubuntu well
>
> Those above are 64-bit.
> I got some very cheap 32 bits as well - running debian
>
>
>
The concern is power consumption, and that they are too old to support
stuff like Wake on Lan.

If you use a core duo for significant periods of time, and don't need a
room heater, it is cheaper to buy something modern and low power.

It is only if you want a computer that is only turned on occasionally,
that such deals start to make sense.

On 27/09/2023 08:57, Björn Lundin wrote:

>
> But you trust a 5 euro rpi zero with a cf-card?
>
> These machine have no moving parts (fanless and flashdisk)
> I stuck spare hdd in them.
> But then again, they are part of my build farm, so they do not contain
> anything that important, they get code from github when needed
>
> The idea was to find x64 boxes that could build my system
> with a small energy footprint. so I also scaled down the CPU, locked it
> at 800 Mhz preventing it to go to 1.65 GHz
>

What power does it consume at the plug?

On 2023-09-27 10:08, Pancho wrote:
> On 27/09/2023 08:57, Björn Lundin wrote:
>
>>
>> But you trust a 5 euro rpi zero with a cf-card?
>>
>> These machine have no moving parts (fanless and flashdisk)
>> I stuck spare hdd in them.
>> But then again, they are part of my build farm, so they do not contain
>> anything that important, they get code from github when needed
>>
>> The idea was to find x64 boxes that could build my system
>> with a small energy footprint. so I also scaled down the CPU, locked
>> it at 800 Mhz preventing it to go to 1.65 GHz
>>
>
> What power does it consume at the plug?

its an AMD GX-217GA and they have TDP 15W
But I think it is less if running at half speed.

But power consumption at the plug I don't know

--
/Björn

On 2023-09-27 10:03, Pancho wrote:
> On 26/09/2023 20:41, Björn Lundin wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
> The concern is power consumption, and that they are too old to support
> stuff like Wake on Lan.

Some do have wake-on-Lan. The fujitsu does.

>
> If you use a core duo for significant periods of time, and don't need a
> room heater, it is cheaper to buy something modern and low power.

the core2duo (minimac) has a TDW of 65 W, so that was most for fun.
Not used, The fujitsu and HP is used quite a bit.

And even if I buy something even less power-hungry, that will cost me more.
And electricity is included in my rent.

> It is only if you want a computer that is only turned on occasionally,
> that such deals start to make sense.

And that is the case

https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/hp/t510/
says the HP consumes 19w at plug
while the fujitsu consumes 11 W

https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/Futro/s720/

But this is a bit off the raspberry pi topic

--
/Björn

On 27/09/2023 08:57, Björn Lundin wrote:
> On 2023-09-27 05:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 26/09/2023 20:41, Björn Lundin wrote:
>>> On 2023-09-26 16:28, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 13:56:13 +0100, Bob Latham wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure you're right, it would help if I had a Linux machine proper.
>>>>>
>>>> Take a look at eBay for used laptops,
>>>
>>>
>>> Or thin clients.
>>> I bought a Hp T510 and a fujitsu Futuro s720 for less than 20 euros
>>> CPU like a RPI 4 but AMD or Via, 4 gb RAM and a very small Sata flash
>>> (16 GB). But runs well with 2.5" hdd via usb (or sata)
>>>
>>> Runs Linux well, uses ubuntu. I also got a mini-mac, Core2Duo with 4
>>> Gb ram for that kind of money. (30 euros I think)
>>>
>>> Also runs Ubuntu well
>>>
>>> Those above are 64-bit.
>>> I got some very cheap 32 bits as well - running debian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Very good prices there.
>>
>> I am not sure I would trust a machine that cheap.
>
> But you trust a 5 euro rpi zero with a cf-card?
>
yes, because its new, and didn't cost 500 when it was new ten years ago...

> These machine have no moving parts (fanless and flashdisk)
> I stuck spare hdd in them.

So is my disintegrated laptop...

> But then again, they are part of my build farm, so they do not contain
> anything that important, they get code from github when needed
>
> The idea was to find x64 boxes that could build my system
> with a small energy footprint. so I also scaled down the CPU, locked it
> at 800 Mhz preventing it to go to 1.65 GHz
>
Well low power means Arm - best MIPS for yer buck there is.

>

--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

On 27/09/2023 09:03, Pancho wrote:
> If you use a core duo for significant periods of time, and don't need a
> room heater, it is cheaper to buy something modern and low power.

Yes, I noticed that too!

--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

On 2023-09-27 12:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>>
>> But you trust a 5 euro rpi zero with a cf-card?
>>
> yes, because its new, and didn't cost 500 when it was new ten years ago...

So then I should not trust my pis from 2012?
The Fujitsu went on the market 2014

And I really doubt it cost 500 as new
<https://www.fujitsu.com/global/about/resources/news/press-releases/2014/0514-03.html>

state 59600 yen in 2014, which is about 380 euros

>> The idea was to find x64 boxes that could build my system
>> with a small energy footprint. so I also scaled down the CPU, locked
>> it at 800 Mhz preventing it to go to 1.65 GHz
>>

> Well low power means  Arm - best MIPS for yer buck there is.

As I stated above : x64

Arm is (usually) not x64, even though there was a discussion somewhere
if x64 refers to only the intel instruction set or to all 64 bits
instruction sets, including ARM64.

To me it was obvious that I was talking intel instruction set, not
ARM64. Perhaps that was a false assumption on my part.

I do have an unmentioned constraint of a commercial compiler needing x86_64

So, with 11W measured power consumption at 1.65 GHz
<https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/Futro/s720/>
and then scaled down to 800 MHz,
I think it is actually less power hungry than a PI 4

--
/Björn

On 27/09/2023 12:12, Björn Lundin wrote:
> On 2023-09-27 12:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>>>
>>> But you trust a 5 euro rpi zero with a cf-card?
>>>
>> yes, because its new, and didn't cost 500 when it was new ten years
>> ago...
>
>
> So then I should not trust my pis from 2012?
> The Fujitsu went on the market 2014
>
> And I really doubt it cost 500 as new
>
> <https://www.fujitsu.com/global/about/resources/news/press-releases/2014/0514-03.html>
>
> state 59600 yen in 2014, which is about 380 euros
>
>
>
>>> The idea was to find x64 boxes that could build my system
>>> with a small energy footprint. so I also scaled down the CPU, locked
>>> it at 800 Mhz preventing it to go to 1.65 GHz
>>>
>
>> Well low power means  Arm - best MIPS for yer buck there is.
>
> As I stated above : x64
>
> Arm is (usually) not x64, even though there was a discussion somewhere
> if x64 refers to only the intel instruction set or to all 64 bits
> instruction sets, including ARM64.
>
> To me it was obvious that I was talking intel instruction set, not
> ARM64. Perhaps that was a false assumption on my part.
>

No, my point was that if you wanted low power, you wouldnt buy x64.

> I do have an unmentioned constraint of a commercial compiler needing x86_64
>
Ah. Hard to get that on ARM

> So, with 11W measured power consumption at 1.65 GHz
> <https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/Futro/s720/>
> and then scaled down to 800 MHz,
> I think it is actually less power hungry than a PI 4
>
Not sure about what I have here, but it runs pretty cool

4 cores about 30°C rather than my old twin at 60°C.

(Intel® Core™ i5-6600T CPU @ 2.70GHz × 4) sez the Linux.

Case isn't warm and I hear no fans.

Pi ZeroW is about 900mW!

Pi's themselves do not have LCD screens that die, keyboards that wear
out. plastic cases that turn to dust...touch screens that stop
working...batteries that lose capacity. These are what go on laptops,
hence my avoidance of uber cheap ones these days

Desktops come with none of those - they last well

--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

On 2023-09-27 14:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Pi's themselves do not have LCD screens that die, keyboards that wear
> out. plastic cases that turn to dust...touch screens that stop
> working...batteries that lose capacity. These are what go on laptops,
> hence my avoidance of uber cheap ones these days
>
> Desktops come with none of those - they last well

Thin clients are desktops.
The Pi4 needs 15w or it dies under load

--
/Björn

On 2023-09-27, Bj??rn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:
> The Pi4 needs 15w or it dies under load

I beg your pardon. The official recommendation is for a 5V 3A power
supply for the BOARD - so that there is at least 1 AMP for USB
periperals etc.

https://www.pidramble.com/wiki/benchmarks/power-consumption

and other people who actually measure this stuff instead of guessing or
woolly hand waving say it uses 6.4W with all 4 cores stressed.

On 2023-09-27 21:22, Jim Jackson wrote:
> On 2023-09-27, Bj??rn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> The Pi4 needs 15w or it dies under load

> and other people who actually measure this stuff instead of guessing or
> woolly hand waving say it uses 6.4W with all 4 cores stressed.

Interesting.
I'll need to replace my power supply to my Pi4 then as
It sometimes dies during compilation uses all cores.

It does have a 5v, 3 A power supply.
It is then a liar.

--
/Björn

On 27/09/2023 14:39, Björn Lundin wrote:
> On 2023-09-27 14:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> Pi's themselves do not have LCD screens that die, keyboards that wear
>> out. plastic cases that turn to dust...touch screens that stop
>> working...batteries that lose capacity. These are what go on laptops,
>> hence my avoidance of uber cheap ones these days
>>
>> Desktops come with none of those - they last well
>
> Thin clients are desktops.
> The Pi4 needs 15w or it dies under load
>
>
What load?

"The Pi 4 draws the following currents: 575 mA while idling. 885 mA
while LXDE is being loaded. 600 mA to view 1080p video."

Worst case 3W???

--
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Mark Twain

In message <uf3ajm$3j70d$1@dont-email.me>
Björn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:

> On 2023-09-27 21:22, Jim Jackson wrote:
> > On 2023-09-27, Bj??rn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:
> > > The Pi4 needs 15w or it dies under load
>
> > and other people who actually measure this stuff instead of guessing or
> > woolly hand waving say it uses 6.4W with all 4 cores stressed.
>
> Interesting.
> I'll need to replace my power supply to my Pi4 then as
> It sometimes dies during compilation uses all cores.
>
> It does have a 5v, 3 A power supply.
> It is then a liar.

Over the years I've come across three power supplies that would no longer
deliver their rated current. The most likely explanation is that a low
value resistor, used for current sensing, has gone high in value, or its
solder joints are a bit dry.

David

On 2023-09-28 16:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 27/09/2023 14:39, Björn Lundin wrote:
>> On 2023-09-27 14:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> Pi's themselves do not have LCD screens that die, keyboards that wear
>>> out. plastic cases that turn to dust...touch screens that stop
>>> working...batteries that lose capacity. These are what go on laptops,
>>> hence my avoidance of uber cheap ones these days
>>>
>>> Desktops come with none of those - they last well
>>
>> Thin clients are desktops.
>> The Pi4 needs 15w or it dies under load
>>
>>
> What load?

compiling a 1.5 Mloc system with -j0.
But now it seems like it is a bad power supply that is the culprit,
as others has suggested

--
/Björn

On 28/09/2023 20:08, David Higton wrote:
> In message <uf3ajm$3j70d$1@dont-email.me>
> Björn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-09-27 21:22, Jim Jackson wrote:
>>> On 2023-09-27, Bj??rn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>> The Pi4 needs 15w or it dies under load
>>
>>> and other people who actually measure this stuff instead of guessing or
>>> woolly hand waving say it uses 6.4W with all 4 cores stressed.
>>
>> Interesting.
>> I'll need to replace my power supply to my Pi4 then as
>> It sometimes dies during compilation uses all cores.
>>
>> It does have a 5v, 3 A power supply.
>> It is then a liar.
>
> Over the years I've come across three power supplies that would no longer
> deliver their rated current. The most likely explanation is that a low
> value resistor, used for current sensing, has gone high in value, or its
> solder joints are a bit dry.
>
> David

SMPS's are strange beasts and can act in weird ways if capoacitors dry
out for example .

And the Pi *may* be sensitive to sagging input voltages

Too many unknowns to be definitive

--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

On 29/09/2023 08:08, Björn Lundin wrote:
> On 2023-09-28 16:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 27/09/2023 14:39, Björn Lundin wrote:
>>> On 2023-09-27 14:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> Pi's themselves do not have LCD screens that die, keyboards that
>>>> wear out. plastic cases that turn to dust...touch screens that stop
>>>> working...batteries that lose capacity. These are what go on
>>>> laptops, hence my avoidance of uber cheap ones these days
>>>>
>>>> Desktops come with none of those - they last well
>>>
>>> Thin clients are desktops.
>>> The Pi4 needs 15w or it dies under load
>>>
>>>
>> What load?
>
> compiling a 1.5 Mloc system with -j0.
> But now it seems like it is a bad power supply that is the culprit,
> as others has suggested
>
>
In most case the power supply is over specced to allow USB devices to be
powered. The fact that yours won't even drive the CPU is deeply
suspicious...
>

--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

On 2023-09-28, Bj??rn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On 2023-09-27 21:22, Jim Jackson wrote:
>> On 2023-09-27, Bj??rn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>> The Pi4 needs 15w or it dies under load
>
>> and other people who actually measure this stuff instead of guessing or
>> woolly hand waving say it uses 6.4W with all 4 cores stressed.
>
> Interesting.
> I'll need to replace my power supply to my Pi4 then as
> It sometimes dies during compilation uses all cores.
>
> It does have a 5v, 3 A power supply.
> It is then a liar.

That is rather simplistic. It is probably that your supply is not
delivering at the full voltage when more current is taken.

Check in you syslog entries for entries indicating that the voltage has
gone low. The onboard low 5v detection is given before the voltage has
gone low enough tro make the board fail.

I have a power supply that supplies a pi4 and an attached USB3 5inch
harddrive, and when the drive is driven hard the current drawn draws the
5v line down enough to trigger the low voltage warning - but luckily not
enough to cause a board crash.

Jim

On 29/09/2023 15:48, Jim Jackson wrote:
> On 2023-09-28, Bj??rn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> On 2023-09-27 21:22, Jim Jackson wrote:
>>> On 2023-09-27, Bj??rn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>> The Pi4 needs 15w or it dies under load
>>
>>> and other people who actually measure this stuff instead of guessing or
>>> woolly hand waving say it uses 6.4W with all 4 cores stressed.
>>
>> Interesting.
>> I'll need to replace my power supply to my Pi4 then as
>> It sometimes dies during compilation uses all cores.
>>
>> It does have a 5v, 3 A power supply.
>> It is then a liar.
>
> That is rather simplistic. It is probably that your supply is not
> delivering at the full voltage when more current is taken.
>
That is still pretty crap and the recieved wisdom is that without the
USB drawing power (what usb drives do you have, if any) it shouldnt be
more than an amp draw ever

> Check in you syslog entries for entries indicating that the voltage has
> gone low. The onboard low 5v detection is given before the voltage has
> gone low enough tro make the board fail.
>
> I have a power supply that supplies a pi4 and an attached USB3 5inch
> harddrive, and when the drive is driven hard the current drawn draws the
> 5v line down enough to trigger the low voltage warning - but luckily not
> enough to cause a board crash.
>
> Jim
>
>
>

--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

On 2023-09-29, Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:
> On 2023-09-28, Bj??rn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> On 2023-09-27 21:22, Jim Jackson wrote:
>>> On 2023-09-27, Bj??rn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>> The Pi4 needs 15w or it dies under load
>>
>>> and other people who actually measure this stuff instead of guessing or
>>> woolly hand waving say it uses 6.4W with all 4 cores stressed.
>>
>> Interesting.
>> I'll need to replace my power supply to my Pi4 then as
>> It sometimes dies during compilation uses all cores.
>>
>> It does have a 5v, 3 A power supply.
>> It is then a liar.
>
> That is rather simplistic. It is probably that your supply is not
> delivering at the full voltage when more current is taken.
>
> Check in you syslog entries for entries indicating that the voltage has
> gone low. The onboard low 5v detection is given before the voltage has
> gone low enough tro make the board fail.
>
> I have a power supply that supplies a pi4 and an attached USB3 5inch
^^^^^

whoops 3.5in

> harddrive, and when the drive is driven hard the current drawn draws the
> 5v line down enough to trigger the low voltage warning - but luckily not
> enough to cause a board crash.
>
> Jim
>
>
>

In article <ueuhcf$2g1lp$3@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> You do need a working linux machine to utilise them though - they
> are not windows tools

> Booting a live CD/DVD/USB drive linux system will net you all you
> need for the duration.

I've just spent a couple of days attempting to get debian 12 to run
from a USB drive. The process involves creating an install usb device
first. I managed this fine and it would boot up fine instead of the
W10 on the C drive. :-)

Then you boot to the install usb and then also plug in another usb
drive on which the installer installs debian. I watched multiple
video first to make sure I was up to speed. It's a long process.

It takes the best part of an hour and then comes the point of booting
debian from the new OS drive. Simply, it doesn't boot! It instantly
without any preamble or error goes to a grey screen, dead as dead.

I tried it in 3 pcs, same in all of them.
Repeated the whole process, still the same.

At this point I remembered why when nearly 20 years ago and had to
use some linux at work I remembered how I hated it. :-(

I may find the energy later to try ubuntu later, it looks a simpler
install.

I got thinking....

Going back to shrinking a working project image.. Why not create
another empty drive with roughly the correct but much smaller 2nd
partition drive. First partition I presume fat32 and second ext4.

Then copy the files across.

Would that work?

I still have the issue of saving it out somehow but would that be
faster/easier?

Cheers,

Bob.

On 01/10/2023 09:57, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <ueuhcf$2g1lp$3@dont-email.me>,
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> You do need a working linux machine to utilise them though - they
>> are not windows tools
>
>> Booting a live CD/DVD/USB drive linux system will net you all you
>> need for the duration.
>
> I've just spent a couple of days attempting to get debian 12 to run
> from a USB drive. The process involves creating an install usb device
> first. I managed this fine and it would boot up fine instead of the
> W10 on the C drive. :-)
>
> Then you boot to the install usb and then also plug in another usb
> drive on which the installer installs debian. I watched multiple
> video first to make sure I was up to speed. It's a long process.
>
I am not sure that would work. Though I cant quite work out why...I am
thinking that the boot loader would need to be explicitly told to put a
boot sector on the stick rather than on the PCs hard drive.

> It takes the best part of an hour and then comes the point of booting
> debian from the new OS drive. Simply, it doesn't boot! It instantly
> without any preamble or error goes to a grey screen, dead as dead.
>
> I tried it in 3 pcs, same in all of them.
> Repeated the whole process, still the same.
>
Haven't you got a gash PC you could make 'linux only'?

> At this point I remembered why when nearly 20 years ago and had to
> use some linux at work I remembered how I hated it. :-(
>
> I may find the energy later to try ubuntu later, it looks a simpler
> install.
>
Try Linux Mint, it is even simpler than Ubuntu

They really went to town making it simple

And things are not what they were 20 years ago,

> I got thinking....
>
> Going back to shrinking a working project image.. Why not create
> another empty drive with roughly the correct but much smaller 2nd
> partition drive. First partition I presume fat32 and second ext4.
>
> Then copy the files across.
>
> Would that work?
>
Yes, but it is very slow and there might be issues if the partition IDs
are different

What is probably better is to install Raspios and *then* copy the
[important] files across

> I still have the issue of saving it out somehow but would that be
> faster/easier?
>
It might be.
The problem you are having is like the problem I used to have with OS/X
- there is this deep dark forest with this bright sunlit path through
it, but it doesn't go to where you want to end up, and the moment you
strike off through the forest there are no signposts whatsoever, just
skeletons of those who went before.

>
> Cheers,
>
> Bob.
>

--
“it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.”

Vaclav Klaus

In article <ufbdfg$1g68o$1@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 01/10/2023 09:57, Bob Latham wrote:
> > In article <ueuhcf$2g1lp$3@dont-email.me>,
> > The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> You do need a working linux machine to utilise them though -
> >> they are not windows tools
> >
> >> Booting a live CD/DVD/USB drive linux system will net you all
> >> you need for the duration.
> >
> > I've just spent a couple of days attempting to get debian 12 to
> > run from a USB drive. The process involves creating an install
> > usb device first. I managed this fine and it would boot up fine
> > instead of the W10 on the C drive. :-)
> >
> > Then you boot to the install usb and then also plug in another
> > usb drive on which the installer installs debian. I watched
> > multiple video first to make sure I was up to speed. It's a long
> > process.
> >
> I am not sure that would work. Though I cant quite work out
> why...I am thinking that the boot loader would need to be
> explicitly told to put a boot sector on the stick rather than on
> the PCs hard drive.

It asks! During the building of the second drive it says it can only
detect Windows Vista (I'm using W10) and claims it should be fine to
place the boot loader on the C drive giving a choice at boot up.

It also offers the choice to place it on any available drive. I stuck
it on the new ext4 debian 12 usb drive. A fat lot of good that did.

> > It takes the best part of an hour and then comes the point of
> > booting debian from the new OS drive. Simply, it doesn't boot! It
> > instantly without any preamble or error goes to a grey screen,
> > dead as dead.
> >
> > I tried it in 3 pcs, same in all of them. Repeated the whole
> > process, still the same.
> >
> Haven't you got a gash PC you could make 'linux only'?

Well I do have an unused for years XP upstairs but wife wants it
gone. Keeps asking me to remove the hard disc. You do want me to
survive this don't you?

> > At this point I remembered why when nearly 20 years ago and had
> > to use some linux at work I remembered how I hated it. :-(
> >
> > I may find the energy later to try ubuntu later, it looks a
> > simpler install.
> >
> Try Linux Mint, it is even simpler than Ubuntu

> They really went to town making it simple

Ok, I'll look at that.

> And things are not what they were 20 years ago,

Even worse you mean? :-)

> > I got thinking....
> >
> > Going back to shrinking a working project image.. Why not create
> > another empty drive with roughly the correct but much smaller 2nd
> > partition drive. First partition I presume fat32 and second ext4.
> >
> > Then copy the files across.
> >
> > Would that work?
> >
> Yes, but it is very slow and there might be issues if the partition
> IDs are different.

Don't know about partition IDs.

> What is probably better is to install Raspios and *then* copy the
> [important] files across

I can't recall how large the ext4 partition is after just an install,
I'll have to look.

> > I still have the issue of saving it out somehow but would that be
> > faster/easier?
> >
> It might be. The problem you are having is like the problem I used
> to have with OS/X - there is this deep dark forest with this
> bright sunlit path through it, but it doesn't go to where you want
> to end up, and the moment you strike off through the forest there
> are no signposts whatsoever, just skeletons of those who went
> before.

Splendid image of the reality.

Bob.

On 01/10/2023 10:55, Bob Latham wrote:
>> Yes, but it is very slow and there might be issues if the partition
>> IDs are different.

> Don't know about partition IDs.

What partitions are mounted where is controlled by a file - /etc/fstab
This *used* to specify which exact bit of *hardware* the drive was
attached to,
So /dev/sda was the *first* SATA port or whatever.
Then people started hot plugging USB drives in and out and it was
uncertain which *logical* port they would appear on, so the system was
modified to give every partition a unique ID (UUID) so the boot loader
would always load the correct partition, but no other.
This has made it bloody difficult to grab a disk with a random partition
and boot from it.

>
>> What is probably better is to install Raspios and*then* copy the
>> [important] files across
> I can't recall how large the ext4 partition is after just an install,
> I'll have to look.
>
Not very big. There is a one time script that blows it up to fill the
'disk' after first boot. You could copy files *after* that

>>> I still have the issue of saving it out somehow but would that be
>>> faster/easier?
>>>
>> It might be. The problem you are having is like the problem I used
>> to have with OS/X - there is this deep dark forest with this
>> bright sunlit path through it, but it doesn't go to where you want
>> to end up, and the moment you strike off through the forest there
>> are no signposts whatsoever, just skeletons of those who went
>> before.
> Splendid image of the reality.
>
Do try Mint. It doesnt work any better once installed, but it is a heck
of a sight easier to get installed. They went to a huge amount of
trouble on the installation process, and it is built over ubuntu which
is built on debian, but the work went in to making it very easy for
windows uses to migrate to.

There are I think four flavours. LXDE - very bare and basic - XFCE.
likewise a bit bare and basic, MATE which is very XP like and Cinnamon
which is very pretty but I find it less usable than MATE.

https://linuxmint.com/download.php
LXDE seems to no longer be offered

> Bob.
>

--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

In article <ufbgti$1griu$1@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Do try Mint. It doesnt work any better once installed, but it is a
> heck of a sight easier to get installed. They went to a huge
> amount of trouble on the installation process, and it is built
> over ubuntu which is built on debian, but the work went in to
> making it very easy for windows uses to migrate to.

> There are I think four flavours. LXDE - very bare and basic - XFCE.
> likewise a bit bare and basic, MATE which is very XP like and
> Cinnamon which is very pretty but I find it less usable than MATE.

> https://linuxmint.com/download.php LXDE seems to no longer be
> offered

I've tried it! I tried MATE as you suggested. It was a far simpler
process and it worked out of the box.

It doesn't ask about Languages and assumes USA english which I found
an issue setting up wifi password that contains a #. But wifi up and
running and it remembers over a reboot.

Yes, I will get around to partition shrinking but before then I tried
sharing a folder via smb. No, looked it up on line how to do it, all
the suggested menu options don't exist so I assume this is because
it's on a usb device not a proper install. Shame cos without sharing
it's about as much use as ...

But later I'll try shrinking partitions - AGAIN.

Bob.