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computers / comp.os.linux.misc / Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

SubjectAuthor
* HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxEli the Bearded
|`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
| +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
| |`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
| | +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
| | |`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
| | | `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
| | |  `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
| | |   `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
| | `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxCharlie Gibbs
| `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxjak
+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
|`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
| `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
|  `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
|+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxTauno Voipio
||`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
|| `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  |+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxBobbie Sellers
||  ||`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  || +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  || |`- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  || `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  ||  `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  ||   +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  ||   |`- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  ||   `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxCharlie Gibbs
||  ||    `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  ||     `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxCharlie Gibbs
||  ||      `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  ||       `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxCharlie Gibbs
||  ||        `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  | `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  |  `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAllodoxaphobia
||  |   `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |    `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  |     `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |      `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  |       +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxRoger Blake
||  |       |`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxpH
||  |       | `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |       `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |        +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  |        |+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxBobbie Sellers
||  |        ||`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  |        || `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |        ||  +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  |        ||  |`- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |        ||  `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  |        ||   `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |        |`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |        | +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxScott Lurndal
||  |        | |`- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAhem A Rivet's Shot
||  |        | +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxJ. Clarke
||  |        | |+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAhem A Rivet's Shot
||  |        | ||`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxPeter Flass
||  |        | || `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxJ. Clarke
||  |        | ||  `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |        | ||   `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  |        | ||    +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxDennis Boone
||  |        | ||    |`- Re: real programmers, was HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxJohn Levine
||  |        | ||    +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxDavid W. Hodgins
||  |        | ||    |+- Re: fine old languages, HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxJohn Levine
||  |        | ||    |+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |        | ||    ||`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxCharlie Gibbs
||  |        | ||    || `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxDan Espen
||  |        | ||    ||  `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxJ. Clarke
||  |        | ||    ||   `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxCharlie Gibbs
||  |        | ||    |`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  |        | ||    | +- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxDavid W. Hodgins
||  |        | ||    | `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxRich Alderson
||  |        | ||    `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxJerry Peters
||  |        | |`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |        | | +* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  |        | | |+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAhem A Rivet's Shot
||  |        | | ||+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  |        | | |||`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxgareth evans
||  |        | | ||| `* OT : Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxgareth evans
||  |        | | |||  `- Re: OT : Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  |        | | ||`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxCharlie Gibbs
||  |        | | || `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAhem A Rivet's Shot
||  |        | | |+- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxStéphane CARPENTIER
||  |        | | |`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxJ. Clarke
||  |        | | | `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |        | | |  `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxJ. Clarke
||  |        | | |   `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAhem A Rivet's Shot
||  |        | | `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  |        | +- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxQuestor
||  |        | `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAndreas Kohlbach
||  |        `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAnssi Saari
||  |         `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |          `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAnssi Saari
||  |           +- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  |           `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxTauno Voipio
||  |            +- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |            `* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
||  |             +- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
||  |             `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxTauno Voipio
||  `- Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxSixOverFive
|`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxThe Natural Philosopher
+* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxAragorn
`* Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBoxCharlie Gibbs

Pages:12345
HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

<1vGdnQotD_JChLr8nZ2dnUU7-L3NnZ2d@earthlink.com>

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From: hae274b.net@nowhere (SixOverFive)
Subject: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 00:34:38 -0400
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 by: SixOverFive - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 04:34 UTC

Drifting around today I found a few interesting antiques
on the net. One was DOS-6.22 ... and a Turbo Pascal 6
compiler that ran on it. Also got the MS Fortran/Pascal/COBOL
and BASCOM for it. Even more interesting, remember when the
IBM-PCs first came out ? They came with TWO floppies -
IBM-DOS and CP/M-86. The originals had CP/M 1.0 while the
closely-following PC-XTs came with CP/M 1.10 ...
got BOTH to run inside VirtualBox. Even found an ancient
Aztec 'C' compiler that'll make CP/M executables AND
the (rather extensive) manual.

Note, CP/M was rather CRAPPY. It wasn't even usually
safe to try and append to files because the OS didn't
keep track of how many bytes were in play.

WAY back in the day I wrote some large apps that depended
on BASCOM for speed. Gotta see if they'll still compile.
ALSO found DOS versions of LogiTech Modula-2 (they DID
do more stuff before mice and such).

A decided Blast From The Past - fun, fun, fun ! Gotta
find something cool to write for CP/M-86 ... mail server
maybe ?

There are also ancient Linux versions out there, if
you want to play. I bought the first one, RedHat I think,
that had any kind of xorg GUI WAY on back. SUSE came
along shortly afterwards and was better. May still
have the floppies somewhere, but the download was
easier.

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

<eli$2108260051@qaz.wtf>

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From: *@eli.users.panix.com (Eli the Bearded)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 05:05:12 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Some absurd concept
Message-ID: <eli$2108260051@qaz.wtf>
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 by: Eli the Bearded - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 05:05 UTC

In comp.os.linux.misc, SixOverFive <hae274b.net> wrote:
> Drifting around today I found a few interesting antiques
> on the net. One was DOS-6.22 ... and a Turbo Pascal 6
> compiler that ran on it. Also got the MS Fortran/Pascal/COBOL
> and BASCOM for it. Even more interesting, remember when the
> IBM-PCs first came out ? They came with TWO floppies -
> IBM-DOS and CP/M-86. The originals had CP/M 1.0 while the
> closely-following PC-XTs came with CP/M 1.10 ...
> got BOTH to run inside VirtualBox. Even found an ancient
> Aztec 'C' compiler that'll make CP/M executables AND
> the (rather extensive) manual.

Check if it is at archive.org and if not, upload it.
I see several versions of the Aztec C Compiler manual scanned.
This looks like the earliest:

https://archive.org/details/Aztec_C_1.05_User_Manual_Dec82

> A decided Blast From The Past - fun, fun, fun ! Gotta
> find something cool to write for CP/M-86 ... mail server
> maybe ?

Not too hard, unless you need encryption support.

> There are also ancient Linux versions out there, if
> you want to play. I bought the first one, RedHat I think,
> that had any kind of xorg GUI WAY on back. SUSE came
> along shortly afterwards and was better. May still
> have the floppies somewhere, but the download was
> easier.

I remember playing around with MGR, a non-X11 GUI that came with my
first Redhat distro. (There was X11, too, but it was provided as
an alternative.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ManaGeR

I see no one has yet run it in emulation to provide a screenshot for
the article. Richard Kettlewell, in this group, answered my question
in 2012 when I said I remembered that program but couldn't remember
it's name. I noted the lack of screenshot in my reply then (message ID
<eli$1311091452@qz.little-neck.ny.us> ).

Elijah
------
betting no one has ported MGR to 64 bits, and that a port is needed

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

<sg7lci$ica$2@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 10:03:14 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 09:03 UTC

On 26/08/2021 05:34, SixOverFive wrote:
> Gotta
> find something cool to write for CP/M-86

TCP/IP stack?

--
“The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools.”

Herbert Spencer

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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From: ank@spamfence.net (Andreas Kohlbach)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
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X-Face-What-Is-It: Capture Bee from Galaga
 by: Andreas Kohlbach - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 16:26 UTC

On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 00:34:38 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274b.net> wrote:
>
> Note, CP/M was rather CRAPPY. It wasn't even usually
> safe to try and append to files because the OS didn't
> keep track of how many bytes were in play.

MS-DOS did? I admit I have no idea, but always thought CP/M was superior
to MS-DOS; even that MS-DOS was more or less a clone. And not forget CP/M
was the first operating system for micros, running on many system
architectures, as long as they ran a 8080, Z80 or X68. The software
library is so huge that many manufacturers, even Commodore, offered CP/M
cards to give their customers access to it.
--
Andreas

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

<sg8gn8$78h$1@dont-email.me>

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From: tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid (Tauno Voipio)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
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 by: Tauno Voipio - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 16:49 UTC

On 26.8.21 19.26, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 00:34:38 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274b.net> wrote:
>>
>> Note, CP/M was rather CRAPPY. It wasn't even usually
>> safe to try and append to files because the OS didn't
>> keep track of how many bytes were in play.
>
> MS-DOS did? I admit I have no idea, but always thought CP/M was superior
> to MS-DOS; even that MS-DOS was more or less a clone. And not forget CP/M
> was the first operating system for micros, running on many system
> architectures, as long as they ran a 8080, Z80 or X68. The software
> library is so huge that many manufacturers, even Commodore, offered CP/M
> cards to give their customers access to it.

CP/M had bookkeeping in 128 byte extents, not more accurate. The extent
size was also the sector size of a basic single-density 8 inch diskette,
with 77 tracks of 26 sectors each.

--

-TV

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 17:51:26 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 16:51 UTC

On 26/08/2021 17:26, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 00:34:38 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274b.net> wrote:
>>
>> Note, CP/M was rather CRAPPY. It wasn't even usually
>> safe to try and append to files because the OS didn't
>> keep track of how many bytes were in play.
>
> MS-DOS did? I admit I have no idea, but always thought CP/M was superior
> to MS-DOS; even that MS-DOS was more or less a clone. And not forget CP/M
> was the first operating system for micros, running on many system
> architectures, as long as they ran a 8080, Z80 or X68. The software
> library is so huge that many manufacturers, even Commodore, offered CP/M
> cards to give their customers access to it.
>
The disk formats were pretty crude, I think that's why there were ctrl-Z
in text files to indicate the end.

MS-DOS FAT was a little better, but this is all from very old
memory...so may be misremembered

--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
they are poor.

Peter Thompson

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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From: thorongil@telenet.be (Aragorn)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 19:53:39 +0200
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 by: Aragorn - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 17:53 UTC

On 26.08.2021 at 00:34, SixOverFive scribbled:

> Drifting around today I found a few interesting antiques
> on the net. One was DOS-6.22 ... and a Turbo Pascal 6
> compiler that ran on it. Also got the MS Fortran/Pascal/COBOL
> and BASCOM for it. Even more interesting, remember when the
> IBM-PCs first came out ? They came with TWO floppies -
> IBM-DOS and CP/M-86. The originals had CP/M 1.0 while the
> closely-following PC-XTs came with CP/M 1.10 ...
> got BOTH to run inside VirtualBox.

A word of caution, though. I have no experience with VirtualBox, but
if you're going to be running that TurboPascal 6.0 inside of it, then
if possible, you'll have to set up VirtualBox to mimic a CPU with a
clock speed below 200 MHz.

I'm not sure where the tipping point lies, but the TP6 compiler can't
handle higher clocks and will either crash or start generating faulty
code.

--
With respect,
= Aragorn =

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
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From: hae274b.net@nowhere (SixOverFive)
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 by: SixOverFive - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 00:33 UTC

On 08/26/2021 01:53 PM, Aragorn wrote:
> On 26.08.2021 at 00:34, SixOverFive scribbled:
>
>> Drifting around today I found a few interesting antiques
>> on the net. One was DOS-6.22 ... and a Turbo Pascal 6
>> compiler that ran on it. Also got the MS Fortran/Pascal/COBOL
>> and BASCOM for it. Even more interesting, remember when the
>> IBM-PCs first came out ? They came with TWO floppies -
>> IBM-DOS and CP/M-86. The originals had CP/M 1.0 while the
>> closely-following PC-XTs came with CP/M 1.10 ...
>> got BOTH to run inside VirtualBox.
>
> A word of caution, though. I have no experience with VirtualBox, but
> if you're going to be running that TurboPascal 6.0 inside of it, then
> if possible, you'll have to set up VirtualBox to mimic a CPU with a
> clock speed below 200 MHz.
>
> I'm not sure where the tipping point lies, but the TP6 compiler can't
> handle higher clocks and will either crash or start generating faulty
> code.
Haven't seen that ... brought in a couple of my old Turbo
programs and they all compiled and ran as expected. They
included KB and disk i/o. The only thing that MIGHT be
affected would be the built in time-delay ; I don't know
how it determined the system clockspeed, but likely the
source no longer exists or the divisors are WAY too
inadequate.

Haven't tried any GRAPHICS stuff though ... THAT may be
the real challenge in VBox.

Anyway, it's all good retro fun.

Loading the IBM compilers was a bit tedious due the the
way the installers liked to work - assumed you had a
stack of floppies you would load one-by-one. The VBox
"Devices" option lets you mount a floppy .img file so
when it said "Load Disk 2" I'd have to go up there and
change to the next .img file. Works though. So far
I have the IBM 'C' and PASCAL v2.0 working and could
compile and link some improved "Hello World" tests.
Can't find the Pas2.0 MANUAL though, just the 1.0.

There are a number of features in that old IBM version
you didn't see carried over into Turbo, I saw
"labeled break/continue" type statements (the word
isn't "continue" though), where you can bust out of
a multi-level loop to any higher section. "BREAK LOOP2"
and such stuff.

My old boss bought IBM PASCAL, big money back then,
and wrote exactly ONE "Hello World" with it (with
massive commenting) and put it away. TP came out
a year or two later, which I then used for almost
all programs. IBM PASCAL is a TWO-pass compiler
(and there's a third pass I'm not sure for WHAT
included but apparently not usually necessary).

I did stick with massively-commented code though,
that way I can figure out how even 30 year old
programs worked and why.

Anyway, 'C' works - gotta build some batch files
to make it easier though - and PASCAL. The LogiTech
M2 compiler seems to go. I have not yet installed
the DR-PL/I or IBM COBOL compilers.

It's all happy running on a 250mb fake C: drive and
sees 640kb of RAM (special drivers are needed to get
to any RAM above that). PRINTING seems pretty much
out of the question though ... I am flat out of
serial printers and teletype machines and I DO
remember the evils of DOS printer drivers :-)

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
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 by: SixOverFive - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 00:36 UTC

On 08/26/2021 05:03 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 26/08/2021 05:34, SixOverFive wrote:
>> Gotta
>> find something cool to write for CP/M-86
>
> TCP/IP stack?

It can be done on an Arduino (probably easier
on the Mega with more RAM). They DO make a
network card, you CAN implement a (very VERY
slow) web page. So, it can be done in DOS
and even CP/M for sure.

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
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 by: SixOverFive - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 00:57 UTC

On 08/26/2021 01:05 AM, Eli the Bearded wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.misc, SixOverFive <hae274b.net> wrote:
>> Drifting around today I found a few interesting antiques
>> on the net. One was DOS-6.22 ... and a Turbo Pascal 6
>> compiler that ran on it. Also got the MS Fortran/Pascal/COBOL
>> and BASCOM for it. Even more interesting, remember when the
>> IBM-PCs first came out ? They came with TWO floppies -
>> IBM-DOS and CP/M-86. The originals had CP/M 1.0 while the
>> closely-following PC-XTs came with CP/M 1.10 ...
>> got BOTH to run inside VirtualBox. Even found an ancient
>> Aztec 'C' compiler that'll make CP/M executables AND
>> the (rather extensive) manual.
>
> Check if it is at archive.org and if not, upload it.
> I see several versions of the Aztec C Compiler manual scanned.
> This looks like the earliest:
>
> https://archive.org/details/Aztec_C_1.05_User_Manual_Dec82
>
>> A decided Blast From The Past - fun, fun, fun ! Gotta
>> find something cool to write for CP/M-86 ... mail server
>> maybe ?
>
> Not too hard, unless you need encryption support.

Encryption is math ... but naturally you'd have to
write your own stuff in those ancient systems.
They didn't really do processes back then alas,
everything was very linear. The IBM-C talks about
what we'd call "semaphores" and other subprocess/
subthread related stuff so MAYBE it's possible
in DOS. I remember some "hotkey" programs that
absolutely ran as background processes ...

>> There are also ancient Linux versions out there, if
>> you want to play. I bought the first one, RedHat I think,
>> that had any kind of xorg GUI WAY on back. SUSE came
>> along shortly afterwards and was better. May still
>> have the floppies somewhere, but the download was
>> easier.
>
> I remember playing around with MGR, a non-X11 GUI that came with my
> first Redhat distro. (There was X11, too, but it was provided as
> an alternative.)

Yea, X11 was "experimental" way back in the beginning,
and I recall it had lots of weird issues. Got better.
The first Linux I tried, I think I selected X11 mostly
because it "sounded cool" - had an "X" in it :-)

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ManaGeR
>
> I see no one has yet run it in emulation to provide a screenshot for
> the article. Richard Kettlewell, in this group, answered my question
> in 2012 when I said I remembered that program but couldn't remember
> it's name. I noted the lack of screenshot in my reply then (message ID
> <eli$1311091452@qz.little-neck.ny.us> ).
>
> Elijah
> ------
> betting no one has ported MGR to 64 bits, and that a port is needed
>

Some things are destined to just fade away.

However I *know* that some DOS apps are still in use,
running in DOS with "older" hardware - one place has
a large old database it does NOT want to try and port
over to anything newer (a multi-value PICK-like DB
that doesn't fit the MSSQL flat-file schema very well).
Too much work. I think some places are even running
emulated System 360s because they have some vital
big old COBOL programs they just are NOT gonna pay
anybody to re-write. If it works ....

A year or two ago, DeGaulle airport in Paris had a
ground-traffic control problem. Turned out the box
running the custom app was WIN-3.11 Still working after
decades. Apparently they got it up and going again ...

Oh, and I came across an article recently on implementing
Unix-V on an emulated PDP-11, on a rPI ....

There's the "good old stuff", and then just "old stuff".

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
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 by: SixOverFive - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 01:06 UTC

On 08/26/2021 12:49 PM, Tauno Voipio wrote:
> On 26.8.21 19.26, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 00:34:38 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274b.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Note, CP/M was rather CRAPPY. It wasn't even usually
>>> safe to try and append to files because the OS didn't
>>> keep track of how many bytes were in play.
>>
>> MS-DOS did? I admit I have no idea, but always thought CP/M was superior
>> to MS-DOS; even that MS-DOS was more or less a clone. And not forget CP/M
>> was the first operating system for micros, running on many system
>> architectures, as long as they ran a 8080, Z80 or X68. The software
>> library is so huge that many manufacturers, even Commodore, offered CP/M
>> cards to give their customers access to it.
>
>
> CP/M had bookkeeping in 128 byte extents, not more accurate. The extent
> size was also the sector size of a basic single-density 8 inch diskette,
> with 77 tracks of 26 sectors each.

Ah HA ! So if you wanted to append a file, you should have
your records sized at some multiple of 128 .....

This is useful information.

The young people do not realize how CP/M was *the*
"business system" for quite a long time. Mass quantities
of biz/science software was written for it. This is why
those old PCs came with the CP/M disk. You could re-compile
your old source and I seem to recall there were utilities
that could (usually) brutalize Z-80 binaries into x86
binaries directly that'd run on CP/M-86. IBMs middle
name IS "Business" after all and they wanted to ensure
a certain continuity until new apps could be written.

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 02:08:17 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 01:08 UTC

On 27/08/2021 01:36, SixOverFive wrote:
> On 08/26/2021 05:03 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 26/08/2021 05:34, SixOverFive wrote:
>>> Gotta
>>> find something cool to write for CP/M-86
>>
>> TCP/IP stack?
>
>   It can be done on an Arduino (probably easier
>   on the Mega with more RAM). They DO make a
>   network card, you CAN implement a (very VERY
>   slow) web page. So, it can be done in DOS
>   and even CP/M for sure.

TCP/IP stacks existed in DOS back in the day. Used to sell them...
No sure you would get one for a z80 running CP/M though - ISTR the
smallest was around 45Kbytes

--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 01:12 UTC

On 27/08/2021 01:57, SixOverFive wrote:
> However I *know* that some DOS apps are still in use,
>   running in DOS with "older" hardware

It's a remarkably good OS if you have for example a PC running
instrumentation...pretty real time even if only single tasking, easy to
write a custom interrupt based driver for to handle IO, and enough UI to
allow a decent screen base on VGA standards to be constructed.

In short if you just uses it as a program loader its OK.

--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 01:58 UTC

On 27/08/2021 02:06, SixOverFive wrote:
> On 08/26/2021 12:49 PM, Tauno Voipio wrote:
>> On 26.8.21 19.26, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 00:34:38 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274b.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Note, CP/M was rather CRAPPY. It wasn't even usually
>>>> safe to try and append to files because the OS didn't
>>>> keep track of how many bytes were in play.
>>>
>>> MS-DOS did? I admit I have no idea, but always thought CP/M was superior
>>> to MS-DOS; even that MS-DOS was more or less a clone. And not forget
>>> CP/M
>>> was the first operating system for micros, running on many system
>>> architectures, as long as they ran a 8080, Z80 or X68. The software
>>> library is so huge that many manufacturers, even Commodore, offered CP/M
>>> cards to give their customers access to it.
>>
>>
>> CP/M had bookkeeping in 128 byte extents, not more accurate. The extent
>> size was also the sector size of a basic single-density 8 inch diskette,
>> with 77 tracks of 26 sectors each.
>
>   Ah HA ! So if you wanted to append a file, you should have
>   your records sized at some multiple of 128 .....

No, the problem was that text files used a ctrl-z to mark EOF so you had
to scan the last sector looking for it...and use that as your file size.
For code files - executables - spare bytes at the end didn't matter. and
ctrl-z was a valid opcodes or memory address, but you didn't append
executable files - you recompiled or reassembled them.

The problem would have been binary files. But we didn't have those
really then. Much. And if we did we usually put something in the file
structure itself to say how long it was. CP/M doisk drivers were really
just a way of getting n 128 byte sectors off a disk and putting them on.

Files as such were a bit of a new fangled luxury :-)

>
>   This is useful information.
>
>   The young people do not realize how CP/M was *the*
>   "business system" for quite a long time. Mass quantities
>   of biz/science software was written for it.
First micro word processors and (among the first) spreadsheets.
Accounting software too.

This is why
>   those old PCs came with the CP/M disk. You could re-compile
>   your old source and I seem to recall there were utilities
>   that could (usually) brutalize Z-80 binaries into x86
>   binaries directly that'd run on CP/M-86. IBMs middle
>   name IS "Business" after all and they wanted to ensure
>   a certain continuity until new apps could be written.

Yeah. I remember those, but really a lot of the 8080 assembler source
could be mapped into 8086 small model (64k) code. That would have been a
better way, but along came PCDOS and bang went CPM MPM and CPM86

--
In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
gets full Marx.

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From: cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Date: 27 Aug 2021 02:01:31 GMT
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 by: Charlie Gibbs - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 02:01 UTC

On 2021-08-26, SixOverFive <hae274b.net> wrote:

> Drifting around today I found a few interesting antiques
> on the net. One was DOS-6.22 ... and a Turbo Pascal 6
> compiler that ran on it. Also got the MS Fortran/Pascal/COBOL
> and BASCOM for it. Even more interesting, remember when the
> IBM-PCs first came out ? They came with TWO floppies -
> IBM-DOS and CP/M-86. The originals had CP/M 1.0 while the
> closely-following PC-XTs came with CP/M 1.10 ...
> got BOTH to run inside VirtualBox. Even found an ancient
> Aztec 'C' compiler that'll make CP/M executables AND
> the (rather extensive) manual.

Hmm, I have an unopened copy of CP/M-86 version 2.
I'll get it uploaded to Bitsavers someday.

> Note, CP/M was rather CRAPPY. It wasn't even usually
> safe to try and append to files because the OS didn't
> keep track of how many bytes were in play.

CP/M stored file sizes in 128-byte sectors. That's why
that control-Z byte was introduced: so you could tell
when you've hit the exact end of a text file. Most
CP/M software was smart enough to overwrite the 0x1A
character when appending data.

MS-DOS stores the size of a file as an exact number of
bytes. Unfortunately, it retained the control-Z character,
even though it was now unnecessary. This has caused all
sorts of pain; for instance, if a byte in a text file gets
corrupted to 0x1A, the remainder of the file is lost.

I never had trouble appending to a CP/M file, but I did
encounter problems with MS-DOS version 3, which contained
a bug: when COMMAND.COM appended data to a text file
(e.g. "dir >>file.txt"), and the existing file ended
with a hex 1A, the hex 1A wasn't overwritten. This meant
that all appended text, although physically present in
the file, would be inaccessible to any program reading it.

Although this bug was fixed in the next release, it was part
of my early introduction to Microsoft's quality standards -
"sort of works, most of the time" - which formed the philosophy
of the most famous producer of crappy software in history.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 04:40:56 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 03:40 UTC

On 27/08/2021 03:01, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> it was part
> of my early introduction to Microsoft's quality standards -
> "sort of works, most of the time" - which formed the philosophy
> of the most famous producer of crappy software in history.

'Designed to sell, not to work'....

--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"

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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
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X-Face-What-Is-It: Capture Bee from Galaga
 by: Andreas Kohlbach - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 17:22 UTC

On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 02:58:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> On 27/08/2021 02:06, SixOverFive wrote:
>
> Files as such were a bit of a new fangled luxury :-)
>
>>   This is useful information.
>>   The young people do not realize how CP/M was *the*
>>   "business system" for quite a long time. Mass quantities
>>   of biz/science software was written for it.
> First micro word processors and (among the first)
> spreadsheets. Accounting software too.

Wasn't VISICALC the first commercial successful spreadsheet, which
(first) only ran on an Apple ][? That was the first "killer app". Some
people bought an Apple ][, only to have access to a spreadsheet! Crazy
times.
--
Andreas

https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/

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 by: Bobbie Sellers - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 18:26 UTC

On 8/27/21 10:22, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 02:58:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>> On 27/08/2021 02:06, SixOverFive wrote:
>>
>> Files as such were a bit of a new fangled luxury :-)
>>
>>>   This is useful information.
>>>   The young people do not realize how CP/M was *the*
>>>   "business system" for quite a long time. Mass quantities
>>>   of biz/science software was written for it.
>> First micro word processors and (among the first)
>> spreadsheets. Accounting software too.
>
> Wasn't VISICALC the first commercial successful spreadsheet, which
> (first) only ran on an Apple ][? That was the first "killer app". Some
> people bought an Apple ][, only to have access to a spreadsheet! Crazy
> times.
>

Pioneering times for digital workers. CPM machines were rife and quite
disk bound with only floppy drives, only about 64 K of memory
so any application had to fit, pull in data from floppies and manipulate
it. Priced for business, one of my girlfriends tried to build her own.
Don't know if she succeeded as she moved away.

Visicalc was the killer app for Apple.
My first software buy was Paper Clip for the Commodore 64.
I learned about inserting formatting codes and enjoyed the heck out
of being able to express myself in newsletters and other media. Using
a Gorilla Monitor with 3 shades of greenish yellow called Amber in
the advertising. Got a 80 column card and was buzzing along.

Looking in Computer Shopper for Commodore stuff and tripping
over 4 floppy drives in CPM machines at every other page. The
Osbourne Computer started with only two drives which made it luggable
way then went out of business because everyone was waiting on the new
model Osbourne Executive That is why some companies maintain a good
deal of caution about revealing the latest things in their works.

I used to spend quite some time and as little money as possible
at Computer Shows which were generally weekend events. The Commodore
when it was coming out with the Amiga had a show at the old Jack Tar
Hotel (now long gone with a Hospital built on the site). I won a
drawing for a C=64 database from Batteries Included. Decided as the
Amiga was coming out that I MUST have one but it took me years to
make that happen.

bliss - 'Nearly any fool can use a Linux computer. Many do.' After all
here I am...

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

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Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
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From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SixOverFive)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 00:44:32 -0400
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 by: SixOverFive - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 04:44 UTC

On 08/26/2021 09:58 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 27/08/2021 02:06, SixOverFive wrote:
>> On 08/26/2021 12:49 PM, Tauno Voipio wrote:
>>> On 26.8.21 19.26, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 00:34:38 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274b.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Note, CP/M was rather CRAPPY. It wasn't even usually
>>>>> safe to try and append to files because the OS didn't
>>>>> keep track of how many bytes were in play.
>>>>
>>>> MS-DOS did? I admit I have no idea, but always thought CP/M was
>>>> superior
>>>> to MS-DOS; even that MS-DOS was more or less a clone. And not forget
>>>> CP/M
>>>> was the first operating system for micros, running on many system
>>>> architectures, as long as they ran a 8080, Z80 or X68. The software
>>>> library is so huge that many manufacturers, even Commodore, offered
>>>> CP/M
>>>> cards to give their customers access to it.
>>>
>>>
>>> CP/M had bookkeeping in 128 byte extents, not more accurate. The extent
>>> size was also the sector size of a basic single-density 8 inch
diskette,
>>> with 77 tracks of 26 sectors each.
>>
>> Ah HA ! So if you wanted to append a file, you should have
>> your records sized at some multiple of 128 .....
>
> No, the problem was that text files used a ctrl-z to mark EOF so you had
> to scan the last sector looking for it...and use that as your file size.
> For code files - executables - spare bytes at the end didn't matter. and
> ctrl-z was a valid opcodes or memory address, but you didn't append
> executable files - you recompiled or reassembled them.
>
> The problem would have been binary files. But we didn't have those
> really then. Much. And if we did we usually put something in the file
> structure itself to say how long it was. CP/M doisk drivers were really
> just a way of getting n 128 byte sectors off a disk and putting them on.

Unfortunately, binary files were exactly what I had
in mind .....

Yes, you CAN do ASCII database records, even use the PICK-ish
ascii-delimited structure (easy to READ, much more of a bitch
to edit - lots of special cases).

> Files as such were a bit of a new fangled luxury :-)

Aw, there'd been "files" since right after
UNIVAC :-)

I'd LOVE to score one of those antique "disk
drives" though - well, "drum drives". Mercury
delay-line serial memory ... they had such
interesting solutions back in the day.

Look up "rope memory" ... actually used for
Apollo program spacecraft computers. You'd
THINK fuse-programmable PROMS would have been
MUCH cheaper/simpler, but then it WAS a govt
program :-)

>>
>> This is useful information.
>>
>> The young people do not realize how CP/M was *the*
>> "business system" for quite a long time. Mass quantities
>> of biz/science software was written for it.
> First micro word processors and (among the first) spreadsheets.
> Accounting software too.
>
> This is why
>> those old PCs came with the CP/M disk. You could re-compile
>> your old source and I seem to recall there were utilities
>> that could (usually) brutalize Z-80 binaries into x86
>> binaries directly that'd run on CP/M-86. IBMs middle
>> name IS "Business" after all and they wanted to ensure
>> a certain continuity until new apps could be written.
>
> Yeah. I remember those, but really a lot of the 8080 assembler source
> could be mapped into 8086 small model (64k) code. That would have been a
> better way, but along came PCDOS and bang went CPM MPM and CPM86

There wasn't THAT much difference between Z80 and 8088, so
writing a simple "translator" would not be too difficult,
at least for single-page programs. The Z80 could be tweaked
to do multiple pages - in a very clunky way. That might be
more difficult to translate into the 8088 world.

Ultimately, it was just easier to re-compile the source using
x86 compilers and improve from there. ASM programs were a bit
more work. After that, Z80 was just dead. All those wonderful
S-100 boxes became scrap metal.

I *think* you could get m68000 (68008?) in S-100 early on.
GOTTA find one of those !

I have limited experience with Z80 and CP/M. I've been having
to re-learn how to use "PIP". DOS was kind of like CP/M at
the beginning ... they just incorporated PIP so you didn't
have to run it as a separate utility.

Ah, my latest VirtualBox issue ... damned thing will NOT
map a USB drive. SEES it, PRETENDS to attach it, but
NO drive letter A:-Z: .... this is a problem. DOS 6.22 is
supposed to understand CD-ROMS at the very least and VB
is supposed to make a USB device kinda look like something
DOS and CP/M can cope with. If I can't load some EXE
programs and drivers I can't network. The SERIAL port
works ... maybe a daisy-chain of adapters .... really IS
like the bad old days ....

DID get EMM386 to recognize a super whopping massive 32MB
of RAM though :-)

Oh, and IBM-C works a LOT easier if you just copy ALL the
files into ONE directory - compiler, linker, includes,
everything.

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
References: <1vGdnQotD_JChLr8nZ2dnUU7-L3NnZ2d@earthlink.com> <874kbc18bn.fsf@usenet.ankman.de> <sg8gn8$78h$1@dont-email.me> <LZmdnU0zIfsmp7X8nZ2dnUU7-L_NnZ2d@earthlink.com> <sg9grd$n4i$1@dont-email.me> <87wno6yf89.fsf@usenet.ankman.de> <sgbanq$o8m$1@dont-email.me>
From: hae274c.net@nowhere (SixOverFive)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 01:22:43 -0400
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 by: SixOverFive - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 05:22 UTC

On 08/27/2021 02:26 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 8/27/21 10:22, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 02:58:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>> On 27/08/2021 02:06, SixOverFive wrote:
>>>
>>> Files as such were a bit of a new fangled luxury :-)
>>>
>>>>     This is useful information.
>>>>     The young people do not realize how CP/M was *the*
>>>>     "business system" for quite a long time. Mass quantities
>>>>     of biz/science software was written for it.
>>> First micro word processors and (among the first)
>>> spreadsheets. Accounting software too.
>>
>> Wasn't VISICALC the first commercial successful spreadsheet, which
>> (first) only ran on an Apple ][? That was the first "killer app". Some
>> people bought an Apple ][, only to have access to a spreadsheet! Crazy
>> times.
>>
>
>     Pioneering times for digital workers.  CPM machines were rife and
> quite disk bound with only floppy drives, only about 64 K of memory
> so any application had to fit, pull in data from floppies and manipulate
> it.  Priced for business, one of my girlfriends tried to build her own.
> Don't know if she succeeded as she moved away.

Better Z80 systems used a few extra pins to implement paged
memory (in a clunky fashion). So, at least 128k was not
out of the picture. With programs often writ mostly in
assembler, that was enough to do a LOT of neat stuff.

>     Visicalc was the killer app for Apple.
>     My first software buy was Paper Clip for the Commodore 64.
> I learned about inserting formatting codes and enjoyed the heck out
> of being able to express myself in newsletters and other media. Using
> a Gorilla Monitor with 3 shades of greenish yellow called Amber in
> the advertising.  Got a 80 column card and was buzzing along.

I liked the VIC-20 ... it was a simpler memory model than
in the C-64. Really good for learning the nuances of
assembler. Couldn't afford an Apple back then ...

>     Looking in Computer Shopper for Commodore stuff and tripping
> over 4 floppy drives in CPM machines at every other page.  The
> Osbourne Computer started with only two drives which made it luggable
> way then went out of business because everyone was waiting on the new
> model Osbourne Executive  That is why some companies maintain a good
> deal of caution about revealing the latest things in their works.

I actually wrote some practical software on an Osbourne "portable".
A mix of 'C' and assembler - my only real experience with CP/M Z80.
Oh well, they paid pretty good ...

Ever see the IBM "Portable PC" ... the same idea - weighed about
30 pounds ..... used one of THOSE for a practical field project too.
Best there was at the time. There was an "alternate" 88 chip at
the time, fewer cycles per instruction, and even had a 8087 !

Some day I may tell about porting a FORTRAN program to IBM-BASIC
and using POKE/PEEK to write stuff the 8087 could use ... horrible !
Despite the close numbers, the '87 has a whole different programming
philosophy. This is made invisible these days, but ONCE ...

>     I used to spend quite some time and as little money as possible
> at Computer Shows which were generally weekend events.  The Commodore
> when it was coming out with the Amiga had a show at the old Jack Tar
> Hotel (now long gone with a Hospital built on the site).  I won a
> drawing for a C=64 database from Batteries Included.  Decided as the
> Amiga was coming out that I MUST have one but it took me years to
> make that happen.

I bought an Amiga-1000 ... SO many "Guru Meditation" error messages
that I shelved the expensive thing.

> bliss - 'Nearly any fool can use a Linux computer. Many do.' After all
> here I am...

Even early Linux was "advanced" over the CP/M and even DOS worlds.

Some DID sell UNIX for the early PCs though - but the PRICE was
ridiculous. Santa-Cruz Operation Unix ... I remember now.

Anyway, I'll be trying out my Aztec-C on the CP/M-86 soon now.
Aztec was, as I remember, a pretty decent app back in the day.
The manual is loaded with ASM examples ... they really wanted
you to know what the compiler generated. In-Line assembler was
also possible. A relic of a real Hack-It-Together past.

But it was SO fun !

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
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 by: SixOverFive - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 05:48 UTC

On 08/26/2021 12:51 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 26/08/2021 17:26, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 00:34:38 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274b.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Note, CP/M was rather CRAPPY. It wasn't even usually
>>> safe to try and append to files because the OS didn't
>>> keep track of how many bytes were in play.
>>
>> MS-DOS did? I admit I have no idea, but always thought CP/M was superior
>> to MS-DOS; even that MS-DOS was more or less a clone. And not forget CP/M
>> was the first operating system for micros, running on many system
>> architectures, as long as they ran a 8080, Z80 or X68. The software
>> library is so huge that many manufacturers, even Commodore, offered CP/M
>> cards to give their customers access to it.
>>
> The disk formats were pretty crude, I think that's why there were ctrl-Z
> in text files to indicate the end.
>
> MS-DOS FAT was a little better, but this is all from very old
> memory...so may be misremembered

FAT/DOS *did* keep better track of things. Even FAT-12 was better
than CP/M.

Things advance, step by step.

Though sometimes they advance towards a cliff ...

And sometimes they advance in reverse ... the current
trend to revive the old client/server computing model
for easier exploitation/stealing/surveillance/control
is an example.

Oh, I *found* it, my copy of BYTE Vol8 #12 ... a review
of Winders 1.0 ! The Commodore-128 had a better GUI
in ROM at the time. My old boss BOUGHT a copy, but I
can't find the floppy.

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
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Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 09:40:37 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:40 UTC

On 27/08/2021 18:22, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 02:58:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>> On 27/08/2021 02:06, SixOverFive wrote:
>>
>> Files as such were a bit of a new fangled luxury :-)
>>
>>>   This is useful information.
>>>   The young people do not realize how CP/M was *the*
>>>   "business system" for quite a long time. Mass quantities
>>>   of biz/science software was written for it.
>> First micro word processors and (among the first)
>> spreadsheets. Accounting software too.
>
> Wasn't VISICALC the first commercial successful spreadsheet, which
> (first) only ran on an Apple ][? That was the first "killer app". Some
> people bought an Apple ][, only to have access to a spreadsheet! Crazy
> times.
>
Cue why I said 'among the first' spreadsheets. Yes, visicalc was the
killer app on Apple II and Quark Xpress with Photoshop was the killer
app on MacOS 9

Supercalc was the CP/M clone.

With Wordstar and Supercalc and a dot matrix printer, you were in
business on two floppy drives - one for programs, one for data,

We had to wait for Novell Netware on MSDOS to really improve the office
beyond that.

--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 09:53:21 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:53 UTC

On 28/08/2021 06:22, SixOverFive wrote:
>
>> bliss - 'Nearly any fool can use a Linux computer. Many do.' After all
>> here I am...
>
>   Even early Linux was "advanced" over the CP/M and even DOS worlds.
>
>   Some DID sell UNIX for the early PCs though - but the PRICE was
>   ridiculous. Santa-Cruz Operation Unix ... I remember now.

When you have seen and helped maintain one 386 PC running SCO unix with
30 serial terminals wired to it, run an entire company including
spreadsheet, word processing database and accounts, you wouldnt baulk at
the price.

To replace that - generally kept going by one person in the firm or an
occasional visit from elsewhere - by 35 PCS, novell netware, flaky
coaxial Ethernet, and a full time support person, pushed the cost per
desktop up 10x.

I was quoted the cost of running a Windows desktop in the city of London
as £3500 per annum, - capital and depreciation, software licenses
training and IT staff.

Bill Gates pushed the cost of computing through the ROOF.

I vividly remember being involved in a very minor way with the upgrade
of a glue covered IBM system 38 running 10 terminal in a bookbinding
factory, to a PC running AIX 'because we want to run the same COBOL
code that has worked so well for the last 20 years'

>
>   Anyway, I'll be trying out my Aztec-C on the CP/M-86 soon now.
>   Aztec was, as I remember, a pretty decent app back in the day.
>   The manual is loaded with ASM examples ... they really wanted
>   you to know what the compiler generated. In-Line assembler was
>   also possible. A relic of a real Hack-It-Together past.
>
>   But it was SO fun !
Aztec was indeed pretty decent.

I taught myself 'C' using the BDS (Brain Dead Software) compiler - it
wasn't very good at all - simply didn't understand complex statements -
and a z80 wasnt very good at using the deafult integer types - it
preferred 8 bits, but nevertheless it all could be made to work.

Then onwards and upwards to MSDOS DR and IIRC MS C compilers.

--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 10:16:18 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 09:16 UTC

On 28/08/2021 06:48, SixOverFive wrote:
> Things advance, step by step.
>
>  Though sometimes they advance towards a cliff ...
>
>  And sometimes they advance in reverse ... the current
>  trend to revive the old client/server computing model
>  for easier exploitation/stealing/surveillance/control
>  is an example.

You have to see it from the other angle, as I did running companies.

When you had a mainframe. with serial terminals, if one user had a
problem it was with a cheap terminal or a cable

If everyone had a problem, it was with the one actual computer. You got
in your supplier, and they sorted it. There was only one set of programs
running on it, they were clearly understood and documented, and you went
on a training course to learn how to uses them.

Move to the world of the Personal Computer, and offices became a total
nightmare, with people loading anything and everything on their
computers, including viruses and porn, and pirate copes of this that and
the other, that the reliability took a dive while the cost of keeping it
all running soared onto the stratosphere.

And didn't start to come down until centrally managed cloud based apps
appeared that merely demanded the users ran IE6 or something.

If you are working in a commercial environment it is so much easier and
cheaper to maintain one central copy of code that everyone uses. One set
of properly backed up data and so on.

All the personal computer did was allow far more processing power into
the hands of users. For something like graphics and media creation and
edition, or running CAD CAM software this was indispensable, and of
course for home us it meant games, but really it clobbered support
completely.

Most people are far far happier on their cloudy StupidPhones™ and
TotalPills™ (tablets) plugged into cloud apps than they are reinstalling
SUSE linux on a hard drive.

You and I are not, but we are the exception, not the rule.

Decent networking speeds have removed the need for local processing
power to a very large extent. It is far more cost effective to go back
to the 'client server timesharing charge for access to my app' model
where data and support is centralised, than to run distributed code.

I don't see it as a retrograde step at all. It is simply that the
balance between processor power and networks speeds has drastically
changed. And the fact that this re centralisation of data, which should
make it more secure from accidental loss, and lower maintenance costs,
also makes it more vulnerable to malicious abuse, is just the way that
particular cookie crumbles.

Instead of trusting your own sysadmin, you have to trust AmazonAWS
sysadmins instead.

From the perspective of extremely IT literate people, we see the
potential hazards, but unless you have been involved in setting up and
running commercial software systems, you wont easily see the flip side
of the coin.

-
“Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

– Ludwig von Mises

Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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From: ank@spamfence.net (Andreas Kohlbach)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 12:11:12 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Andreas Kohlbach - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 16:11 UTC

On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 01:22:43 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>
> I actually wrote some practical software on an Osbourne "portable".
> A mix of 'C' and assembler - my only real experience with CP/M Z80.
> Oh well, they paid pretty good ...

Does this software still exist?

Never had any (now vintage) hardware other than a Commodore 64 and
Amiga. But thanks to emulation I can catch up with the past on machines I
never owned but were a big part of the late 70s/early 80s (micro)
computer revolution.

For the Osborne I found their "Office Suite" on Bitsavers or Archive.org
so can play with it. Nice to be able to run some of the first word
processors and spreadsheets.

Also uploaded my clumsy attempts to write a text and doing some "table
calculations" on Youtube.
--
Andreas

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