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computers / comp.os.linux.misc / Re: What's the best linux distro?

SubjectAuthor
* Re: What's the best linux distro?F Russell
+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
|`* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Jimmy Johnson
|  +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Robert Riches
|  |`- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
|  `* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
|   `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Rich
|    +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Jasen Betts
|    |`- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
|    `- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
+* Re: What's the best linux distro?F Russell
|`* Re: What's the best linux distro?SixOverFive
| +- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| ||`* Re: X-post and follow-Up (Was: What's the best linux distro?)Carlos E.R.
| || `* Re: X-post and follow-UpBud Frede
| ||  `- Re: X-post and follow-UpCarlos E. R.
| |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| ||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| || +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || |+- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| || |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || ||+- Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| || |||+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || ||||+- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || ||||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || |||| +- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || |||| `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Marc Haber
| || |||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bud Frede
| || ||| `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || ||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || || `- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bobbie Sellers
| || ||+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || |||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || ||| `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || |||  `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || |||   +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || |||   |`- Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || |||   `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || |||    `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Aragorn
| || ||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bud Frede
| || || `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || |`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bud Frede
| || | +- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || | `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Aragorn
| || +* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Robert Latest
| || ||+- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || ||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| || || `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Robert Latest
| || ||  `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| || |+- Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || || `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Marc Haber
| || ||  `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || ||   `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||    `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || ||     `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||      `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || ||       `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||        +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || ||        |`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||        | `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || ||        |  +- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || ||        |  `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||        |   `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || ||        |    `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||        |     +- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || ||        |     `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || ||        |      `* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || ||        |       `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Eli the Bearded
| || ||        `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || ||         +- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || ||         `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || |`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || | `* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || |  `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| || `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| ||  +* Re: What's the best linux distro?jjb
| ||  |`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bobbie Sellers
| ||  | +- Re: What's the best linux distro?Aragorn
| ||  | `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Bud Frede
| ||  +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| ||  |`- Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| ||  `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| ||   `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bud Frede
| ||    `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| ||     `- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Jimmy Johnson
| ||+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Robert Latest
| |||`- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| ||+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Aragorn
| |||+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| ||||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Aragorn
| |||| `- Re: What's the best linux distro?J.O. Aho
| |||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bud Frede
| ||`- Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| |`- Re: What's the best linux distro?Branimir Maksimovic
| `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
`- Re: What's the best linux distro?SixOverFive

Pages:12345
Re: What's the best linux distro?

<20210826194125.32e586b0@nx-74205>

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From: thorongil@telenet.be (Aragorn)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 19:41:25 +0200
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 by: Aragorn - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 17:41 UTC

On 26.08.2021 at 13:12, Dan Espen scribbled:

> Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> writes:
>
> > On 25.08.2021 at 21:02, Jimmy Johnson scribbled:
> >
> >> On 08/25/2021 02:56 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> >>
> >> > F Russell is one of the local trolls, a fanatic. Linux has to be
> >> > his way or it is evil. Systemd is evil. He likes a linux with
> >> > basically no services, no init system, tailored solely for him.
> >> > What the distributions do, a system that works as is for many
> >> > people is evil. Linux for the masses is evil, it has to be for
> >> > hackers only and must be difficult to use.
> >>
> >> Besides slowing a system down, [...
> >
> > My PCLinuxOS system with SysVinit booted up from hitting Enter at
> > the GRUB menu to a character-mode console login prompt in about 50
> > seconds.
> >
> > My Manjaro system with systemd boots up from hitting Enter at the
> > GRUB menu to the SDDM login screen in 10 seconds.
> >
> > Now, I could be grossly wrong, but I am still firmly convinced that
> > 10 seconds is less than 50 seconds.
> >
> >> ...] spying and selling user info [...
> >
> > Links, please? To verifiable sources, please -- not to some "I hate
> > systemd" website.
> >
> >>...], what did systemd bring to the table?
> >
> > Uniformity and consistency in configuration, a failsafe mechanism
> > for the starting and managing of daemons, faster boot times,
> > isolation and containerization of processes, consistency in the
> > naming convention of attached peripherals -- e.g. drives, network
> > interfaces -- as well as autodetection of the EFI partition, the
> > root partition and the swap partition without needing any entries
> > in /etc/fstab on drives with a GUID partition table, et al.
> >
> > AND... unlike with SysVinit, the code is actively being maintained.
>
> Still have me on ignore?

Gosh, no -- that was a long time (and two desktop computers) ago.

> Good post, finally some reason on the subject.
I used to be anti-systemd too, because I couldn't see its merits, and I
guess I was just jerking my knee, like so many others. (I am only
human (I think) and not above making mistakes. ;))

But the more I looked into it, the more systemd simply started making
sense. It's progress. And now that I am running a distribution that
uses systemd [*], I don't see myself ever going back to SysVinit.

[*] Manjaro started off as systemd-based-only, given that it's a
derivative of Arch, but it has in the past also also supported
openrc. The openrc support was however dropped a number of years
ago, which is why a fork of Manjaro was created, called Artix.

--
With respect,
= Aragorn =

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
From: sc@fiat-linux.fr (Stéphane CARPENTIER)
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Stéphane CARPENTIER - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 20:41 UTC

Le 25-08-2021, SixOverFive <hae274b.net> a écrit :
> On 08/24/2021 08:53 AM, F Russell wrote:
>
> What do YOU want to do with it ?

That part's easy to answer. The only thing he does is putting his name
in the source files before compiling the kernel. Like that he believe he
has his own kernel home made. It takes him a week: just in time to
repeat the process with the new version of the kernel. During the
compilation time he comes here to display his lack of knowledge.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: sc@fiat-linux.fr (Stéphane CARPENTIER)
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Stéphane CARPENTIER - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 20:53 UTC

Le 25-08-2021, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
>
> If you dont know what services are running on a machine or what they do,
> you shouldn't be messing with them in the first place.

OK, you don't know what you are talking about. There are legitimate
criticisms against systemd. This is not one of them. By design it's way
easier to know what services are running.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: sc@fiat-linux.fr (Stéphane CARPENTIER)
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Stéphane CARPENTIER - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 20:57 UTC

Le 25-08-2021, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
>
> Me. I want booting my machines faster. Even the servers.

In fact, I'd say it's even more important for the servers. Because when
you need to restart your server, you know you have a lot of people
waiting for it to be available again.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: sc@fiat-linux.fr (Stéphane CARPENTIER)
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Stéphane CARPENTIER - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 21:03 UTC

Le 25-08-2021, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> a écrit :
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>
>> Having scripts execute in an orderly fashion according to
>> alphanumerical order was perfectly OK
>
> Bull, it was a f***ing mess.
>
> As I said, systemd faster, easier to understand, way more capable.

Agreed. I don't understand the need to have to chose the order of the
services. Why should I care to now if my printer must be started before
or after my webcam?

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: sc@fiat-linux.fr (Stéphane CARPENTIER)
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Stéphane CARPENTIER - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 21:12 UTC

Le 26-08-2021, Jimmy Johnson <Jimmy@disposable.invalid> a écrit :
>
> Besides slowing a system down, spying and selling user info, what did
> systemd bring to the table? Systemd was a lie from the very beginning
> when they said over and over it was faster. Our $ystem is full of lie$.

s/Our Sytem/My message/

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 01:38:53 +0200
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 23:38 UTC

On 26/08/2021 22.57, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 25-08-2021, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
>>
>> Me. I want booting my machines faster. Even the servers.
>
> In fact, I'd say it's even more important for the servers. Because when
> you need to restart your server, you know you have a lot of people
> waiting for it to be available again.

True.

Equally important is not having to adjust everything on a new server to
have it working, but just install and go. More time available for the
real issues.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 23:54 UTC

On 25/08/2021 18.21, Dan Espen wrote:
> Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> writes:
>> On 8/25/21 05:53, Dan Espen wrote:
>>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>>>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>>>
>>>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>>>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>>>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>>>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>>>
>>>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>>> Systemd is unarguably faster.
>>> The user interface is way simpler than initd.
>>> The design of systemd makes a whole bunch of things possible that were
>>> never possible with initd. (Like actually being able to access a
>>> description of each service or getting a list of all services.)
>>> IMO it's a bunch of know-nothings that continue with this systemd
>>> bashing.
>>
>> Well certainly I suffer from vast areas of ignorance but
>> GNU/Linux without systemd was/is faster and is/was more
>> reliable
>
> There is nothing about the design of systemd that would make your
> services run any different than they did before systemd, and there is no
> doubt that startup and shutdown are faster with systemd. So I reject
> your claim of slower.

Unless, as is often the case, the distribution also upgraded everything,
services and apps and libraries, with more features. Every upgrade of
software bring better features, more code, bigger and slower. Not
because of switching to systemd, but because that's the nature of
software in real life.

Besides that, systemd is faster.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 02:01:29 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 01:01 UTC

On 26/08/2021 21:53, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 25-08-2021, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
>>
>> If you dont know what services are running on a machine or what they do,
>> you shouldn't be messing with them in the first place.
>
> OK, you don't know what you are talking about. There are legitimate
> criticisms against systemd. This is not one of them. By design it's way
> easier to know what services are running.
>
It's a shame you cant tell a criticism from a refutation of a claimed
advantage

--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
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Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 01:04 UTC

On 26/08/2021 21:57, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 25-08-2021, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
>>
>> Me. I want booting my machines faster. Even the servers.
>
> In fact, I'd say it's even more important for the servers. Because when
> you need to restart your server, you know you have a lot of people
> waiting for it to be available again.
>
Since its already been down for 4 hours for upgrades, what difference
does 5 minutes make?

I mean all this is so ACADEMIC. So ArtStudent™ hand wavy.

IME the only thing that delays booting is the necessity of fsking the
file system and I dint think systemd will improve that.
--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 07:29 UTC

On 27/08/2021 03.04, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 26/08/2021 21:57, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 25-08-2021, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
>>>
>>> Me. I want booting my machines faster. Even the servers.
>>
>> In fact, I'd say it's even more important for the servers. Because when
>> you need to restart your server, you know you have a lot of people
>> waiting for it to be available again.
>>
> Since its already been down for 4 hours for upgrades, what difference
> does 5 minutes make?

You get charged per second of downtime.

>
> I mean all this is so ACADEMIC. So ArtStudent™ hand wavy.
>
> IME the only thing that delays booting is the necessity of fsking the
> file system and I dint think systemd will improve that.

Not the only thing...

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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 by: J.O. Aho - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 09:02 UTC

On 26/08/2021 19.41, Aragorn wrote:

> I used to be anti-systemd too, because I couldn't see its merits, and I
> guess I was just jerking my knee, like so many others. (I am only
> human (I think) and not above making mistakes. ;))

Sure systemd has come with some merits, but not everything has been
great, as it do "eat up" other projects, which has lead to a number of
serious security issues with a high exportability as it's been the pid 1
that been using them.

Other init systems do handle the "benefit" that has been preached as the
main reason to use systemd, the boot up time. For me from Grub to Kodi
takes just 25 sec on OpenRC, would I want to monitor services, sure I
could use s6 and still get the same bootup time.

I do think that systemd has done a good job on possible service
isolation, but it's doable on other init systems too, but requires a lot
more hands on.

For me, who has work quite many years with systems that had to have high
security and prompt updates of high security vulnerabilities without too
much impact on down time, systemd has been a bad option compared with
say SysVinit.

> [*] Manjaro started off as systemd-based-only, given that it's a
> derivative of Arch, but it has in the past also also supported
> openrc. The openrc support was however dropped a number of years
> ago, which is why a fork of Manjaro was created, called Artix.

Artix claims to be a based on Arch and it do use the Arch repositories
and not the Manajro ones and you also notice that some packages are
released faster on Artix than on Manjaro.

--

//Aho

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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 by: Marc Haber - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 15:01 UTC

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>On 26/08/2021 21:57, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 25-08-2021, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
>>>
>>> Me. I want booting my machines faster. Even the servers.
>>
>> In fact, I'd say it's even more important for the servers. Because when
>> you need to restart your server, you know you have a lot of people
>> waiting for it to be available again.
>>
>Since its already been down for 4 hours for upgrades, what difference
>does 5 minutes make?

Wrong argumentation. With the right distribution, an upgrade doesn't
take four hours, and the services are not down the entire time.

But, if my server takes 5 minutes for its POST, it doesn't matter when
the OS boot takes. On the other hand, when I fire up containers that
only live for a minute, every second of bootup time counts.

I don't need to like systemd to see its advantages, hence I'm using
it. The pain to migrate to one of the systemd-less distributions is
way higher and the support surely worse.

Greetings
Marc
--
-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -----
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " |
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us (Marc Haber)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 17:04:57 +0200
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 by: Marc Haber - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 15:04 UTC

Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:
>Agreed. I don't understand the need to have to chose the order of the
>services. Why should I care to now if my printer must be started before
>or after my webcam?

Imagine you have a DNS server for your IPv6 VPN users, and the VPN
server must be reachable over IPv6. That needs network, and the IPv6
setup to be finished (no more tentative addresses, that takes a few
seconds), before starting the VPN server (or it wouldnt be able to
bind the IPv6 address). Then the VPN server starts, a new interface
appears, the IPv6 address gets configured on the new interface (again
taking a few seconds for duplicate address detection to finish and the
address to lose its tentative status). Only if that's finished, the
DNS server can start.

It's all about order. And if the order isn't right, you either end up
without VPN, or without DNS server. That matters very much.

Took me half a day to get this right with systemd. But I was a newbie
back then, it would probably only be an hour today.

Greetings
Marc
--
-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -----
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " |
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: sc@fiat-linux.fr (Stéphane CARPENTIER)
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Stéphane CARPENTIER - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 12:51 UTC

Le 26-08-2021, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
> On 25/08/2021 18.21, Dan Espen wrote:
>>
>> There is nothing about the design of systemd that would make your
>> services run any different than they did before systemd, and there is no
>> doubt that startup and shutdown are faster with systemd. So I reject
>> your claim of slower.
>
> Unless, as is often the case, the distribution also upgraded everything,
> services and apps and libraries, with more features. Every upgrade of
> software bring better features, more code, bigger and slower. Not
> because of switching to systemd, but because that's the nature of
> software in real life.

Exactly. And you forget everything the user don't need and is not aware
of. But which are there in case he would need them. It's impressive the
number of packages installed on a popular distro just to avoid the
end-user the need to know what he needs or not.

> Besides that, systemd is faster.

Don't know about it. At home it's fast and doesn't use lot of
ressources. But I'm not able to compare with SysV.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: sc@fiat-linux.fr (Stéphane CARPENTIER)
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Stéphane CARPENTIER - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 13:12 UTC

Le 27-08-2021, Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> a écrit :
> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:
>>Agreed. I don't understand the need to have to chose the order of the
>>services. Why should I care to now if my printer must be started before
>>or after my webcam?
>
> Imagine you have a DNS server for your IPv6 VPN users, and the VPN
> server must be reachable over IPv6. That needs network, and the IPv6
> setup to be finished (no more tentative addresses, that takes a few
> seconds), before starting the VPN server (or it wouldnt be able to
> bind the IPv6 address). Then the VPN server starts, a new interface
> appears, the IPv6 address gets configured on the new interface (again
> taking a few seconds for duplicate address detection to finish and the
> address to lose its tentative status). Only if that's finished, the
> DNS server can start.
>
> It's all about order. And if the order isn't right, you either end up
> without VPN, or without DNS server. That matters very much.

Of course some services must be started before others. And systemd
provide a way to do it. But the possibility to order some services
doesn't force me to chose the order every service. You can say the
logs must be started before everything else for example.

In some cases, as a socket is created, a service depending on another
one can be started before the first one because the information will
be cached and sent as soon as the service is available.

> Took me half a day to get this right with systemd. But I was a newbie
> back then, it would probably only be an hour today.

I never said systemd is easy to understand. It would be a lie. But
saying SysV is easy would be a lie too.

At first when something wrong happened and I discovered systemd, I
found the war against systemd. As I had issues with systemd I wanted
to join the war and looked harder. And the more I looked, the more I
found systemd interesting. There are real issues with systemd, it does
things it shouldn't. But nothing else does them and as it start the
process it makes sense to let it do them.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: dan1espen@gmail.com (Dan Espen)
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Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 11:39:05 -0400
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 by: Dan Espen - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 15:39 UTC

Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:

> I never said systemd is easy to understand. It would be a lie. But
> saying SysV is easy would be a lie too.

Funny you should say systemd is not easy to understand.
I can't imagine a simpler system. One file type for configuration
with the simplest syntax possible, and just a few keywords to know about.

What could be eliminated or simplified?

--
Dan Espen

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Dan Espen - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 15:40 UTC

Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:

> Le 26-08-2021, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
>> Besides that, systemd is faster.
>
> Don't know about it. At home it's fast and doesn't use lot of
> ressources. But I'm not able to compare with SysV.

You should know it's faster everywhere based on it's design.
It starts/stops services in parallel instead of serially.
That's ALWAYS going to be faster.

--
Dan Espen

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: sc@fiat-linux.fr (Stéphane CARPENTIER)
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Stéphane CARPENTIER - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 17:39 UTC

Le 28-08-2021, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> a écrit :
> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>
>> Le 26-08-2021, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
>>> Besides that, systemd is faster.
>>
>> Don't know about it. At home it's fast and doesn't use lot of
>> ressources. But I'm not able to compare with SysV.
>
> You should know it's faster everywhere based on it's design.
> It starts/stops services in parallel instead of serially.
> That's ALWAYS going to be faster.

The boot process is faster, it's obvious. But the boot process takes
only the few first seconds of the time I'm using my computer. Once I'm
using my computer, I have no idea about the way to compare the
efficiency of SysV vs. systemd. Mostly when sytemd does stuff which where
lacking in SysV.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: dan1espen@gmail.com (Dan Espen)
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Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 14:25:16 -0400
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 by: Dan Espen - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 18:25 UTC

Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:

> Le 28-08-2021, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> a écrit :
>> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>>
>>> Le 26-08-2021, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
>>>> Besides that, systemd is faster.
>>>
>>> Don't know about it. At home it's fast and doesn't use lot of
>>> ressources. But I'm not able to compare with SysV.
>>
>> You should know it's faster everywhere based on it's design.
>> It starts/stops services in parallel instead of serially.
>> That's ALWAYS going to be faster.
>
> The boot process is faster, it's obvious. But the boot process takes
> only the few first seconds of the time I'm using my computer. Once I'm
> using my computer, I have no idea about the way to compare the
> efficiency of SysV vs. systemd. Mostly when sytemd does stuff which where
> lacking in SysV.

There should be no difference.
Both schemes start services. Those services will run at the same speed
regardless of how they are started.

--
Dan Espen

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 23:08:49 +0200
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 21:08 UTC

On 28/08/2021 17.40, Dan Espen wrote:
> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>
>> Le 26-08-2021, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
>>> Besides that, systemd is faster.
>>
>> Don't know about it. At home it's fast and doesn't use lot of
>> ressources. But I'm not able to compare with SysV.
>
> You should know it's faster everywhere based on it's design.
> It starts/stops services in parallel instead of serially.
> That's ALWAYS going to be faster.
>

The initd system used in openSUSE also started services in parallel.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: thorongil@telenet.be (Aragorn)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 00:10:51 +0200
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 by: Aragorn - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 22:10 UTC

On 28.08.2021 at 23:08, Carlos E. R. scribbled:

> On 28/08/2021 17.40, Dan Espen wrote:
> > Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
> >
> >> Le 26-08-2021, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
> >>> Besides that, systemd is faster.
> >>
> >> Don't know about it. At home it's fast and doesn't use lot of
> >> ressources. But I'm not able to compare with SysV.
> >
> > You should know it's faster everywhere based on it's design.
> > It starts/stops services in parallel instead of serially.
> > That's ALWAYS going to be faster.
>
> The initd system used in openSUSE also started services in parallel.

So does the one in PCLinuxOS, but it's still SysVinit. It has simply
been patched with parallel execution, and while it's definitely a lot
faster than the original SysVinit, it doesn't come anywhere near
systemd.

--
With respect,
= Aragorn

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: invalid@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:05:32 +0100
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 10:05 UTC

Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>
>> I never said systemd is easy to understand. It would be a lie. But
>> saying SysV is easy would be a lie too.
>
> Funny you should say systemd is not easy to understand. I can't
> imagine a simpler system. One file type for configuration with the
> simplest syntax possible, and just a few keywords to know about.

A simple config file syntax doesn’t make a system easy to understand.
There are thousands of lines of man pages containing over 160 options,
with an implementation exceeding half a million lines of C. It’s not
badly documented, but it’s a complex system and it’s silly to pretend
there’s no learning curve here.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: X-post and follow-Up

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 by: Bud Frede - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 10:52 UTC

"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:

> On 26/08/2021 10.31, J.O. Aho wrote:
>> On 26/08/2021 06.13, RonB wrote:
>>> On 2021-08-26, jrg <jeff.g.group@att.net> wrote:
>>>> On 8/25/21 4:10 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>>>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>>>>>> He now and then posts something like that here, and sets the follow up
>>>>>> to the advocacy group, to have a heated mad discussion there, I
>>>>>> suppose.
>>>>>
>>>>> And you indulge him.
>>>>>
>>>> cross post deleted
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>
>>> My slrn scorefile deletes all crossposts automatically. I find that
>>> cleans
>>> up a newsgroup faster than anything else.
>>>
>> Don't know which groups you subscribe for, but for me, most shit is
>> multi posts and not cross posted, not sure it's possible with G2-web
>> interface.
>
> That way you have half the posts of the thread in one group and half
> in the other, so that some people will not see yours.

I tend to leave the groups alone when replying to a cross-posted
article, although I do remove things like the advocacy cesspools.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: dan1espen@gmail.com (Dan Espen)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 07:06:43 -0400
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 by: Dan Espen - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:06 UTC

Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:

> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>>
>>> I never said systemd is easy to understand. It would be a lie. But
>>> saying SysV is easy would be a lie too.
>>
>> Funny you should say systemd is not easy to understand. I can't
>> imagine a simpler system. One file type for configuration with the
>> simplest syntax possible, and just a few keywords to know about.
>
> A simple config file syntax doesn’t make a system easy to understand.
> There are thousands of lines of man pages containing over 160 options,
> with an implementation exceeding half a million lines of C. It’s not
> badly documented, but it’s a complex system and it’s silly to pretend
> there’s no learning curve here.

Where is the user interface? With initd, it's that pile of scripts,
each one a custom creation and a forest of symbolic links.
Where is the learning curve compared to systemd's simple config file
syntax?

No one said ANYTHING about "no learning curve". Systemd presents the
simplest user interface possible, especially compared to initd.

--
Dan Espen

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