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computers / comp.os.linux.misc / Re: What's the best linux distro?

SubjectAuthor
* Re: What's the best linux distro?F Russell
+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
|`* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Jimmy Johnson
|  +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Robert Riches
|  |`- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
|  `* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
|   `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Rich
|    +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Jasen Betts
|    |`- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
|    `- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
+* Re: What's the best linux distro?F Russell
|`* Re: What's the best linux distro?SixOverFive
| +- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| ||`* Re: X-post and follow-Up (Was: What's the best linux distro?)Carlos E.R.
| || `* Re: X-post and follow-UpBud Frede
| ||  `- Re: X-post and follow-UpCarlos E. R.
| |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| ||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| || +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || |+- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| || |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || ||+- Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| || |||+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || ||||+- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || ||||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || |||| +- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || |||| `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Marc Haber
| || |||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bud Frede
| || ||| `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || ||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || || `- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bobbie Sellers
| || ||+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || |||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || ||| `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || |||  `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || |||   +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || |||   |`- Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || |||   `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || |||    `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Aragorn
| || ||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bud Frede
| || || `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || |`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bud Frede
| || | +- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || | `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Aragorn
| || +* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Robert Latest
| || ||+- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || ||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| || || `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Robert Latest
| || ||  `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| || |+- Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || || `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Marc Haber
| || ||  `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || ||   `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||    `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || ||     `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||      `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || ||       `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||        +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || ||        |`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||        | `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || ||        |  +- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || ||        |  `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||        |   `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || ||        |    `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || ||        |     +- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || ||        |     `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || ||        |      `* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || ||        |       `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Eli the Bearded
| || ||        `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| || ||         +- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| || ||         `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| || |`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| || | `* Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| || |  `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| || `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| ||  +* Re: What's the best linux distro?jjb
| ||  |`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bobbie Sellers
| ||  | +- Re: What's the best linux distro?Aragorn
| ||  | `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Bud Frede
| ||  +* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| ||  |`- Re: What's the best linux distro?Richard Kettlewell
| ||  `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| ||   `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bud Frede
| ||    `* Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E. R.
| ||     `- Re: What's the best linux distro?The Natural Philosopher
| |+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Jimmy Johnson
| ||+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Robert Latest
| |||`- Re: What's the best linux distro?Carlos E.R.
| ||+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Aragorn
| |||+* Re: What's the best linux distro?Dan Espen
| ||||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Aragorn
| |||| `- Re: What's the best linux distro?J.O. Aho
| |||`* Re: What's the best linux distro?Bud Frede
| ||`- Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
| |`- Re: What's the best linux distro?Branimir Maksimovic
| `- Re: What's the best linux distro?Stéphane CARPENTIER
`- Re: What's the best linux distro?SixOverFive

Pages:12345
Re: What's the best linux distro?

<sg19ic01udo@news1.newsguy.com>

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From: fr@random.info (F Russell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: 23 Aug 2021 23:04:44 GMT
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 by: F Russell - Mon, 23 Aug 2021 23:04 UTC

On Mon, 23 Aug 2021 17:15:30 -0500, chrisv wrote:

>
> The source is available for all of them. Total choice exists for all
> of them.
>

Totally wrong.

If one desires to install an alternative init system on Fedora
it will be impossible. The distro is locked into systemd
as are many others. Choice does not exist.

Unless a distro specifically allows allows alternative options
for an init system and other systems, as do Gentoo and LFS,
then it is NOT a free distro in the spirit of FOSS.

Again: most distros are not free and violate FOSS principles.

Why is this so?

Because distro maintainers are wannabe gods and do not
want to work for the people but want to work only to glorify
their self-image.

Anyone can create a distro. But creating a distro that maintains
freedom and allows choice is a great labor that few desire to
undertake.

The case is closed.

--

Systemd free. D.E. free.

Always and forever.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

<vmtdvh-bgq.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 03:13:35 +0200
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Tue, 24 Aug 2021 01:13 UTC

On 24/08/2021 01.04, F Russell wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Aug 2021 17:15:30 -0500, chrisv wrote:
>
>>
>> The source is available for all of them. Total choice exists for all
>> of them.
>>
>
> Totally wrong.
>
> If one desires to install an alternative init system on Fedora
> it will be impossible. The distro is locked into systemd
> as are many others. Choice does not exist.
>
> Unless a distro specifically allows allows alternative options
> for an init system and other systems, as do Gentoo and LFS,
> then it is NOT a free distro in the spirit of FOSS.
>
> Again: most distros are not free and violate FOSS principles.

Sue them.

>
> Why is this so?
>
> Because distro maintainers are wannabe gods and do not
> want to work for the people but want to work only to glorify
> their self-image.
>
> Anyone can create a distro. But creating a distro that maintains
> freedom and allows choice is a great labor that few desire to
> undertake.

Then why don't you create your's, and see how many want it?

>
> The case is closed.
>
>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

<sg2q4s028g8@news2.newsguy.com>

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From: fr@random.info (F Russell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: F Russell - Tue, 24 Aug 2021 12:53 UTC

On Tue, 24 Aug 2021 08:10:49 +0200, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

>
> Your posting is utter bullshit.
>

Where is your proof or example to the contrary? Without
it your statement is purely empty.

But my claims remain unassailable -- except to shallow and
deluded idiots like you.

>
> *You* are the dogmatic Troll here.
>

"Troll" is one of the three words in your entire pathetic
vocabulary which in turn stems from your totally reflexive
intelligence.

You are the the blind that leads the lame.

--

Systemd free. D.E. free.

Always and forever.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
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Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Tue, 24 Aug 2021 13:19 UTC

On 24/08/2021 02:13, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 24/08/2021 01.04, F Russell wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Aug 2021 17:15:30 -0500, chrisv wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The source is available for all of them.  Total choice exists for all
>>> of them.
>>>
>>
>> Totally wrong.
>>
>> If one desires to install an alternative init system on Fedora
>> it will be impossible.  The distro is locked into systemd
>> as are many others.  Choice does not exist.
>>
>> Unless a distro specifically allows allows alternative options
>> for an init system and other systems, as do Gentoo and LFS,
>> then it is NOT a free distro in the spirit of FOSS.
>>
>> Again: most distros are not free and violate FOSS principles.
>
> Sue them.
>
>>
>> Why is this so?
>>
>> Because distro maintainers are wannabe gods and do not
>> want to work for the people but want to work only to glorify
>> their self-image.
>>
>> Anyone can create a distro.  But creating a distro that maintains
>> freedom and allows choice is a great labor that few desire to
>> undertake.
>
> Then why don't you create your's, and see how many want it?
>
Exactly.

Linux runs my desktop and my servers. Its a bit like windows, only
better, more stable, and cost nothing more than the effort of installing
it .

I dont give a rats ass about whether its FOSS or not. I care that it
works, it's as secure as the people who do pick over the source code can
make it, and well supported, up to and including porting third party
apps to it.

I got bored with the niceties of the moralities of software development
sometime in the 1990s

>>
>> The case is closed.
>>
>>
>
>

--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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 by: SixOverFive - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 04:12 UTC

On 08/23/2021 07:04 PM, F Russell wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Aug 2021 17:15:30 -0500, chrisv wrote:
>
>>
>> The source is available for all of them. Total choice exists for all
>> of them.
>>
>
> Totally wrong.
>
> If one desires to install an alternative init system on Fedora
> it will be impossible. The distro is locked into systemd
> as are many others. Choice does not exist.
>
> Unless a distro specifically allows allows alternative options
> for an init system and other systems, as do Gentoo and LFS,
> then it is NOT a free distro in the spirit of FOSS.
>
> Again: most distros are not free and violate FOSS principles.
>
> Why is this so?
>
> Because distro maintainers are wannabe gods and do not
> want to work for the people but want to work only to glorify
> their self-image.
>
> Anyone can create a distro. But creating a distro that maintains
> freedom and allows choice is a great labor that few desire to
> undertake.
>
> The case is closed.

Then go back to Debian 1.0 ....

Sorry, but reality is *complicated* ....

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
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From: hae274b.net@nowhere (SixOverFive)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 00:41:30 -0400
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 by: SixOverFive - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 04:41 UTC

On 08/24/2021 08:53 AM, F Russell wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Aug 2021 08:10:49 +0200, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>
>>
>> Your posting is utter bullshit.
>>
>
> Where is your proof or example to the contrary? Without...

PEOPLE !!! What's going on here ???

There IS NO "best" Linux distro. What's "best" depends
ENTIRELY on what YOU plan to DO with it.

And there's also all the BSDs too ... resurrected
Amiga-OS, Plan-9, DOS, CP/M, emulated C-64s, OS-9...
it's ALL out there.

What do YOU want to do with it ?

My office PC has long been vanilla Debian, but I put
UServer on my servers, I *like* OpenSuse, my notebooks
are MX Linux, my favorite VM is Manjaro right now but
I spent a day and a half making FreeBSD run in Virtualbox
with XFCE and LXDE. It JUST DEPENDS. "Best" is a total
illusion.

OK ... DO note NONE of the abovementioned included
Winders ... while there may not be a "best" there
may indeed be a "WORST" :-)

Well, SOMEWHERE, I have a Winders 1.0 floppy ....
I even have a BYTE Magazine issue that reviews
it ! (clue, C64/128 windowing systems were BETTER
at the time).

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 10:18:33 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 09:18 UTC

On 25/08/2021 05:41, SixOverFive wrote:
> My office PC has long been vanilla Debian, but I put
> UServer on my servers, I *like* OpenSuse, my notebooks
> are MX Linux, my favorite VM is Manjaro right now but
> I spent a day and a half making FreeBSD run in Virtualbox
> with XFCE and LXDE. It JUST DEPENDS. "Best" is a total
> illusion.

I stick with one distro - Mint - because after messing around with many
others, that proved optimal for *my desktop needs.
It also runs on my local server. There is no need, but i am used to its
foibles, and I likewise have Ubuntu on my main vps.
Its popular and well supported.

I haven't got time to be fannying around learning a hundred different
arrangements of this or that

--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 11:56:06 +0200
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 09:56 UTC

On 25/08/2021 06.41, SixOverFive wrote:
> On 08/24/2021 08:53 AM, F Russell wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Aug 2021 08:10:49 +0200, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Your posting is utter bullshit.
>>>
>>
>> Where is your proof or example to the contrary?  Without...
>
>
> PEOPLE !!! What's going on here ???
>
> There IS NO "best" Linux distro. What's "best" depends
> ENTIRELY on what YOU plan to DO with it.

Oh, you must be new in these parts :-D

F Russell is one of the local trolls, a fanatic. Linux has to be his way
or it is evil. Systemd is evil. He likes a linux with basically no
services, no init system, tailored solely for him. What the
distributions do, a system that works as is for many people is evil.
Linux for the masses is evil, it has to be for hackers only and must be
difficult to use.

He is impossible.

Ah, and he hates personally the people that don't agree with him.

He now and then posts something like that here, and sets the follow up
to the advocacy group, to have a heated mad discussion there, I suppose.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: invalid@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 12:10:25 +0100
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 11:10 UTC

"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
> He now and then posts something like that here, and sets the follow up
> to the advocacy group, to have a heated mad discussion there, I
> suppose.

And you indulge him.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 13:10:17 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 12:10 UTC

On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> Systemd is evil.

Well on that I do agree.

Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency, and
not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already

--
For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the
very definition of slavery.

Jonathan Swift

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 14:36:50 +0200
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 12:36 UTC

On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> Systemd is evil.
>
> Well on that I do agree.
>
> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency, and
> not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already

Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there was
nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.

To me, it works very well, I have no complains.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: dan1espen@gmail.com (Dan Espen)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 08:53:47 -0400
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 by: Dan Espen - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 12:53 UTC

"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:

> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> Systemd is evil.
>> Well on that I do agree.
>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>
> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>
> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.

Systemd is unarguably faster.
The user interface is way simpler than initd.
The design of systemd makes a whole bunch of things possible that were
never possible with initd. (Like actually being able to access a
description of each service or getting a list of all services.)
IMO it's a bunch of know-nothings that continue with this systemd
bashing.

--
Dan Espen

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
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Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 13:13 UTC

On 25/08/2021 14.53, Dan Espen wrote:
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>
>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>
>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>
> Systemd is unarguably faster.
> The user interface is way simpler than initd.
> The design of systemd makes a whole bunch of things possible that were
> never possible with initd. (Like actually being able to access a
> description of each service or getting a list of all services.)
> IMO it's a bunch of know-nothings that continue with this systemd
> bashing.
>

Or easily modifying a distribution provided service file in a manner
that it survives updates.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 14:27:15 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 13:27 UTC

On 25/08/2021 13:36, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> Systemd is evil.
>>
>> Well on that I do agree.
>>
>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>
> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there was
> nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>
> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>
>
The problem is that it obsoleted a lot of tried and tested ways of
bringing stuff online.

For example, before systemd my laptops had hard wired NFS mounts to my
server in /etc/fstab.

The nfs layer came up after networking by wifi, the mounts were dine
later and all was well.

To years later systemd had broken all the scripts and Poeterring just
shrugged and said 'not my problem' and a further two years elapsed
before people actually managed to rewrite all their initialization to
conform to HIS opaque standards. And there are still messes around -
stuff that boots up 'oddly'.

Having scripts execute in an orderly fashion according to alphanumerical
order was perfectly OK

You looked at what systems your layer depended on, amd made sure you
were later in the list.

--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 14:31:06 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 13:31 UTC

On 25/08/2021 13:53, Dan Espen wrote:
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>
>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>
>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>
> Systemd is unarguably faster.

who needs to boot a server faster? when you only take it doiwn every few
months and its down for at least a few hours while you mess aroujnd with it.

> The user interface is way simpler than initd.

Rubbish

> The design of systemd makes a whole bunch of things possible that were
> never possible with initd. (Like actually being able to access a
> description of each service or getting a list of all services.)

If you dont know what services are running on a machine or what they do,
you shouldn't be messing with them in the first place.

> IMO it's a bunch of know-nothings that continue with this systemd
> bashing.
>
No, it's people who have found stuff that worked perfectly well was
broken by systemd, and took ages to fix.

--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: bliss@mouse-potato.com (Bobbie Sellers)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Bobbie Sellers - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 15:23 UTC

On 8/25/21 05:53, Dan Espen wrote:
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>
>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>
>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>
> Systemd is unarguably faster.
> The user interface is way simpler than initd.
> The design of systemd makes a whole bunch of things possible that were
> never possible with initd. (Like actually being able to access a
> description of each service or getting a list of all services.)
> IMO it's a bunch of know-nothings that continue with this systemd
> bashing.

Well certainly I suffer from vast areas of ignorance but GNU/Linux
without systemd was/is faster and is/was more reliable
than when I used systemd on Mageia 3.1. I started with Mandriva
2006. Before that I used Amiga computers from Commodore.

Systemd may be handy for people who must maintain a lot of
machines as in an Enterprise situation but for me on my laptops
other solutions are available.

PCLinuxOS 64 is my present choice, MX Linux is quite good, Devuan
is Debian without systemd, AntiX can be run without systemd and if
you have really old systems perhaps 4M Linux, or Slack by
Puppy drawing on the vast repositories of Slackware.

One simple job to start the computer but others to kick
off each service.

bliss - 'Nearly any fool can use a Linux computer. Many do.' After all
here I am...

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Robert Latest - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 15:38 UTC

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> For example, before systemd my laptops had hard wired NFS mounts to my
> server in /etc/fstab.
>
> The nfs layer came up after networking by wifi, the mounts were dine
> later and all was well.
>
> To years later systemd had broken all the scripts

I have a few NFS mounts to my local NAS on my systemd-running laptop without
problems. Just a couple of lines in /etc/fstab, no scripts required.

> Having scripts execute in an orderly fashion according to alphanumerical
> order was perfectly OK

I find writing custom services is also a lot easier in systemd. Until once when
I tried to write a timer unit. That was crap.

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 15:47 UTC

"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> Systemd is evil.
>>
>> Well on that I do agree.
>>
>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>
> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.

“Nothing else suitable” isn’t true at all. Disregarding the rather large
set of toy/experimental inits, Upstart was already deployed in
production Linux systems. Launchd would have needed porting for use on
Linux but was (and still is) happily managing large numbers of real
computers.

systemd as it is today has a lot of features they’re missing, certainly,
but applying the same effort to them that was in fact put into systemd
doesn’t seem like a totally unrealistic option, had anyone chosen to
pursue it.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: dan1espen@gmail.com (Dan Espen)
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Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Dan Espen - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 16:07 UTC

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

> On 25/08/2021 13:36, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>>
>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>>
>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>>
> The problem is that it obsoleted a lot of tried and tested ways of
> bringing stuff online.

initd still works on my Fedora system:

https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora/rawhide/system-administrators-guide/infrastructure-services/Services_and_Daemons/

--
Dan Espen

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Dan Espen - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 16:10 UTC

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

> Having scripts execute in an orderly fashion according to
> alphanumerical order was perfectly OK

Bull, it was a f***ing mess.

As I said, systemd faster, easier to understand, way more capable.

--
Dan Espen

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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 by: Dan Espen - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 16:14 UTC

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

> On 25/08/2021 13:53, Dan Espen wrote:
>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>>
>>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>>
>>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>> Systemd is unarguably faster.
>
> who needs to boot a server faster? when you only take it doiwn every
> few months and its down for at least a few hours while you mess
> aroujnd with it.

Oh here we go down that blind alley.
I said it was faster, whether you appreciate it or not is irrelevant.

>> The user interface is way simpler than initd.
>
> Rubbish

Oh really? Do you know anything about system design?
One file type, no forest of links, no utility to reconstruct the soft
link forest, a bunch of intuitive keywords in one file type.

>> The design of systemd makes a whole bunch of things possible that were
>> never possible with initd. (Like actually being able to access a
>> description of each service or getting a list of all services.)
>
> If you dont know what services are running on a machine or what they
> do, you shouldn't be messing with them in the first place.

That's the best you can come up with? You've never encountered a
service you are not running that you think you might need to run.
Pathetic.

>> IMO it's a bunch of know-nothings that continue with this systemd
>> bashing.
>>
> No, it's people who have found stuff that worked perfectly well was
> broken by systemd, and took ages to fix.

So sad.

--
Dan Espen

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: invalid@invalid.nl (jjb)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 18:17:05 +0200
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 by: jjb - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 16:17 UTC

On 25-08-2021 17:47, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> systemd as it is today has a lot of features they’re missing, certainly,
> but applying the same effort to them that was in fact put into systemd
> doesn’t seem like a totally unrealistic option, had anyone chosen to
> pursue it.
>

But they didn't...

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: dan1espen@gmail.com (Dan Espen)
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Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Dan Espen - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 16:21 UTC

Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> writes:

> On 8/25/21 05:53, Dan Espen wrote:
>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>>
>>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>>
>>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>> Systemd is unarguably faster.
>> The user interface is way simpler than initd.
>> The design of systemd makes a whole bunch of things possible that were
>> never possible with initd. (Like actually being able to access a
>> description of each service or getting a list of all services.)
>> IMO it's a bunch of know-nothings that continue with this systemd
>> bashing.
>
> Well certainly I suffer from vast areas of ignorance but
> GNU/Linux without systemd was/is faster and is/was more
> reliable

There is nothing about the design of systemd that would make your
services run any different than they did before systemd, and there is no
doubt that startup and shutdown are faster with systemd. So I reject
your claim of slower.

There are facets of the systemd design that make it more reliable than
an init system that only covers startup and shutdown. If systemd had
teething problems, those are all behind us now.

> than when I used systemd on Mageia 3.1. I started with Mandriva
> 2006. Before that I used Amiga computers from Commodore.

An appeal to expertise? Back in the 90s I was using Solaris at home.
Somewhere in the 00s I transitioned to Linux, Mandriva was my first at
home install.

I believe I was on Fedora when systemd was introduced. I did an
upgrade, not an install. I was running for a few days before I became
aware of the new init system.

--
Dan Espen

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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From: dan1espen@gmail.com (Dan Espen)
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Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 12:23:28 -0400
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 by: Dan Espen - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 16:23 UTC

Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:

> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>>
>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>>
>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>
>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>
> “Nothing else suitable” isn’t true at all. Disregarding the rather large
> set of toy/experimental inits, Upstart was already deployed in
> production Linux systems. Launchd would have needed porting for use on
> Linux but was (and still is) happily managing large numbers of real
> computers.
>
> systemd as it is today has a lot of features they’re missing, certainly,
> but applying the same effort to them that was in fact put into systemd
> doesn’t seem like a totally unrealistic option, had anyone chosen to
> pursue it.

So now it's "some other init system could be better".

That's no way to bash systemd, you're supposed to attack the character
of the lead developer.

--
Dan Espen

Re: What's the best linux distro?

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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: What's the best linux distro?
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 17:14 UTC

Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>>>
>>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>>>
>>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>>
>>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>
>> “Nothing else suitable” isn’t true at all. Disregarding the rather large
>> set of toy/experimental inits, Upstart was already deployed in
>> production Linux systems. Launchd would have needed porting for use on
>> Linux but was (and still is) happily managing large numbers of real
>> computers.
>>
>> systemd as it is today has a lot of features they’re missing, certainly,
>> but applying the same effort to them that was in fact put into systemd
>> doesn’t seem like a totally unrealistic option, had anyone chosen to
>> pursue it.
>
> So now it's "some other init system could be better".

I’m not sure how you get to that from the above. Just pointing out that
Carlos’s characterisation of the situation at the time decisions were
being made wasn’t accurate.

> That's no way to bash systemd, you're supposed to attack the character
> of the lead developer.

I’m not trying to bash anything here.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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