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computers / alt.comp.os.windows-10 / Re: weird freeze up problem

SubjectAuthor
* weird freeze up problemT
+* Re: weird freeze up problemBill
|`- Re: weird freeze up problemT
+* Re: weird freeze up problemFrank Slootweg
|+* Re: weird freeze up problemPaul
||+* Re: weird freeze up problemT
|||`* Re: weird freeze up problemPaul
||| `* Re: weird freeze up problemAndy Burns
|||  `* Re: weird freeze up problemPaul
|||   `* Re: weird freeze up problemT
|||    `* Re: weird freeze up problemAndy Burns
|||     `* Re: weird freeze up problemT
|||      `* Re: weird freeze up problemRene Lamontagne
|||       `- Re: weird freeze up problemT
||+- Re: weird freeze up problemT
||`* Re: weird freeze up problemT
|| +* Re: weird freeze up problemBill
|| |+- Re: weird freeze up problemT
|| |`* Re: weird freeze up problemPaul
|| | +- Re: weird freeze up problemBill
|| | `* Re: weird freeze up problemT
|| |  `* Re: weird freeze up problemPaul
|| |   `- Re: weird freeze up problemT
|| `- Re: weird freeze up problemPaul
|`* Re: weird freeze up problemAndy Burns
| +- Re: weird freeze up problemFrank Slootweg
| `- Re: weird freeze up problemT
+* Re: weird freeze up problemwasbit
|`* Re: weird freeze up problemBill
| `- Re: weird freeze up problemT
`* Re: weird freeze up problemn/a
 `* Re: weird freeze up problemT
  `* Re: weird freeze up problemn/a
   `- Re: weird freeze up problemT

Pages:12
Re: weird freeze up problem

<sic4ch$422$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=55788&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#55788

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From: nospam@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: weird freeze up problem
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:16:15 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 87
Message-ID: <sic4ch$422$1@dont-email.me>
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In-Reply-To: <sic17c$gan$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Paul - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 08:16 UTC

T wrote:
> On 9/18/21 4:49 AM, Paul wrote:
>> perfmon /rel
>
> They are all "Windows not properly shut down":
>
> https://ibb.co/LgtDNvh
>
>
> Temperature.bat
> Temperature with Thermal zones
> Temperature is in Kelvin * 10 C = (K / 10) - 273.15
> CurrentTemperature InstanceName
> 3010 ACPI\ThermalZone\TZ00_0
>
> 27.85C
>
> :'(
>
> -T
>

Consistent with a freeze, followed by the user cycling
the power or hitting the reset button. The machine
realizes it was not properly shut down, by examining
the state of things when it is starting up.

Hunt for culprit:

Pretty hard to do

1) Examine user program installs, for something
that messes with ACPI, ACPI schema, shutdown, sleep, hibernate.

2) Check whether machine is a Surface product (S0ic ACPI variant?)

3) Use Sysinternals Process Monitor, set the recording to "disk"
rather than the default "RAM". And hope that the next time
the machine is started, the caching file is still there. I don't
have any freezes here to test with (I used to be able to freeze
Windows 10 with Imagemagick with OpenMP activity, but they fixed
that). You would be starting a trace, having it record to disk,
then the machine would freeze (and on restart, Windows journal cleanup
could remove the last data block, or it could decide to just
blow away the file entirely). That's the only idea I have
for a way to do an end-trace. Since the buffer would not regularly
be flushed, there's no guarantee the last microseconds of activity
are recorded.

4) Keep Task Manager on the screen, so that the state of
RAM usage (by Firefox) can be examined. It might freeze showing
suspicious performance graphs.

Bandaid:

Select High Performance mode rather than Balanced.

To get true High Performance mode, go into the BIOS
and disable EIST and disable C3, C6, and other
C state settings. Some motherboards have several
C state tick boxes (Gigabyte). Other brands might offer
nothing like that. That's what it took here, to get
the processor to stay at peak clock rate.

C12 might be something like "select cores are powered
off, to save a lot of power". And this is a very
temporary state - if you moved the mouse, it would
jump out of C12, restart the cores, reinitialize stuff,
and be ready for action. Normally, silicon doesn't have
sufficient "race tracks" for power around the outside of
the chip, to power off this concept of cores. I don't
know how they're able to do this, without a penalty on
silicon area. There was some AMD hex core chip, where
the cores were in two groups, and the power was modulated
in sets of three cores. Maybe you could turn off half of
them via a C state change on that AMD.

The machine can still detect inactivity and make
a S state transition (from S0 to S3 sleep, or S4
Hibernate, according to user preference setting).

The idea would be, to prevent it from doing any
sort of ACPI change when people are out of the room,
avoiding some driver issue with the state transition
that is crashing or freezing things.

Paul

Re: weird freeze up problem

<sic7j5$oa3$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=55791&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#55791

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From: T@invalid.invalid (T)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: weird freeze up problem
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 02:11:01 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <sic7j5$oa3$1@dont-email.me>
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In-Reply-To: <pdg2J.55966$jm6.54786@fx07.iad>
Content-Language: en-DE
 by: T - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 09:11 UTC

On 9/21/21 12:54 AM, Bill wrote:
> On 9/21/2021 3:22 AM, T wrote:
>> On 9/18/21 4:49 AM, Paul wrote:
>>> perfmon /rel
>>
>> They are all "Windows not properly shut down":
>>
>> https://ibb.co/LgtDNvh
>>
>>
>> Temperature.bat
>> Temperature with Thermal zones
>> Temperature is in Kelvin * 10    C = (K / 10) - 273.15
>> CurrentTemperature  InstanceName
>> 3010                ACPI\ThermalZone\TZ00_0
>>
>> 27.85C
>>
>> :'(
>>
>> -T
>>
>
>
> Back when they sold semi-built computers (i.e. the main components
> assembled in a case), someone put an "extra" "riser" in the case to
> support the motherboard (for which there was no corresponding hole on
> the motherboard).  And when the computer felt like it, such as when it
> got warm, it would shutdown, and it did at least 2 or 3 times a weak.
> It took me at least 3 months to deduce the problem.   I only tell this
> story to inspire "-T"---"Where there's a will, there's a way!"  :)
>

I asked him to keep his door open. I have no idea
if he actually did

Re: weird freeze up problem

<sic8vi$1qb$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=55793&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#55793

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From: nospam@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: weird freeze up problem
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 05:34:41 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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In-Reply-To: <pdg2J.55966$jm6.54786@fx07.iad>
 by: Paul - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 09:34 UTC

Bill wrote:
> On 9/21/2021 3:22 AM, T wrote:
>> On 9/18/21 4:49 AM, Paul wrote:
>>> perfmon /rel
>>
>> They are all "Windows not properly shut down":
>>
>> https://ibb.co/LgtDNvh
>>
>>
>> Temperature.bat
>> Temperature with Thermal zones
>> Temperature is in Kelvin * 10 C = (K / 10) - 273.15
>> CurrentTemperature InstanceName
>> 3010 ACPI\ThermalZone\TZ00_0
>>
>> 27.85C
>>
>> :'(
>>
>> -T
>>
>
>
> Back when they sold semi-built computers (i.e. the main components
> assembled in a case), someone put an "extra" "riser" in the case to
> support the motherboard (for which there was no corresponding hole on
> the motherboard). And when the computer felt like it, such as when it
> got warm, it would shutdown, and it did at least 2 or 3 times a weak.
> It took me at least 3 months to deduce the problem. I only tell this
> story to inspire "-T"---"Where there's a will, there's a way!" :)
>

As an experienced builder though, T knows all this stuff.

Like, that there are alignment issues in the (X,Y) plane,
as well as alignment issues on the Z axis. When fitting
a motherboard into a computer case.

When you assemble a computer, the board needs to be "nudged a
bit" in the (X,Y) plane, then you take sample cards and
insert them in slot 1 and slot 6. You check for smooth card
entry, no "bending" of the card, no "tilting from front to back"
on the plugin card. Like in the case of Kens recent build,
a customer might not have ordered any add-in cards whatsoever.
But you as the builder, take one of your collection of test
cards, and shove it into the slot, to verify the (X,Y) position
is perfect. If the card is a jam/hammer fit, undo the
screws, nudge the mobo a bit, tighten the screws and
retry fitting the test add-in boards.

In the Z axis direction, when you buy a computer case, the standoffs
are *only* for that case. If you add a nylon washer above the
standoff, that lifts the mobo up above the datum and causes
plugin cards to tilt faceplate-to-heel.

ATX motherboard design assumes grounded standoffs, and the
PTH for the mount points are grounded inside the PCB as well.
This is purposeful and part of the ESD strategy. The PCB drawing
has keepout zones, where there aren't supposed to be any SMT
caps or resistors for the standoff to touch. In this way, the
board is mostly clear of shorting problems at the standoffs.
And once you've done your "nudging" properly, like magic
you'll see the screws and standoffs are nicely centered.

Some motherboard problems are caused when the board bends
a bit. There was one Asus motherboard, where unknown to Asus,
the boards were leaving the factory, with "solder blobs".
An excess of solder, caused by the wrong assembly order
on the line. They were fitting a plastic CPU socket ring
before running the board through the wave solder (could have
been selective wave, instead of full wave). And solder
was damming up under the plastic (where an inspector won't
see it). If you bent the board a tiny bit, the two blobs
would touch each other, shorting something out. The machine
would shut down.

Not all the seemingly standoff issues, are ohmic at the
contact point. Some issues are caused by board flexure.

Paul

Re: weird freeze up problem

<Psi2J.36157$nR3.20296@fx38.iad>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=55796&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#55796

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Subject: Re: weird freeze up problem
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<si4lju.ajs.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net> <si4jnv$iii$1@dont-email.me>
<sic17c$gan$1@dont-email.me> <pdg2J.55966$jm6.54786@fx07.iad>
<sic8vi$1qb$1@dont-email.me>
From: nonegiven@att.net (Bill)
In-Reply-To: <sic8vi$1qb$1@dont-email.me>
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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 06:27:59 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 4695
 by: Bill - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 10:27 UTC

On 9/21/2021 5:34 AM, Paul wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> On 9/21/2021 3:22 AM, T wrote:
>>> On 9/18/21 4:49 AM, Paul wrote:
>>>> perfmon /rel
>>>
>>> They are all "Windows not properly shut down":
>>>
>>> https://ibb.co/LgtDNvh
>>>
>>>
>>> Temperature.bat
>>> Temperature with Thermal zones
>>> Temperature is in Kelvin * 10    C = (K / 10) - 273.15
>>> CurrentTemperature  InstanceName
>>> 3010                ACPI\ThermalZone\TZ00_0
>>>
>>> 27.85C
>>>
>>> :'(
>>>
>>> -T
>>>
>>
>>
>> Back when they sold semi-built computers (i.e. the main components
>> assembled in a case), someone put an "extra" "riser" in the case to
>> support the motherboard (for which there was no corresponding hole on
>> the motherboard).  And when the computer felt like it, such as when it
>> got warm, it would shutdown, and it did at least 2 or 3 times a weak.
>> It took me at least 3 months to deduce the problem.   I only tell this
>> story to inspire "-T"---"Where there's a will, there's a way!"  :)
>>
>
> As an experienced builder though, T knows all this stuff.
>
> Like, that there are alignment issues in the (X,Y) plane,
> as well as alignment issues on the Z axis.  When fitting
> a motherboard into a computer case.
>
> When you assemble a computer, the board needs to be "nudged a
> bit" in the (X,Y) plane, then you take sample cards and
> insert them in slot 1 and slot 6. You check for smooth card
> entry, no "bending" of the card, no "tilting from front to back"
> on the plugin card. Like in the case of Kens recent build,
> a customer might not have ordered any add-in cards whatsoever.
> But you as the builder, take one of your collection of test
> cards, and shove it into the slot, to verify the (X,Y) position
> is perfect. If the card is a jam/hammer fit, undo the
> screws, nudge the mobo a bit, tighten the screws and
> retry fitting the test add-in boards.
>
> In the Z axis direction, when you buy a computer case, the standoffs
> are *only* for that case. If you add a nylon washer above the
> standoff, that lifts the mobo up above the datum and causes
> plugin cards to tilt faceplate-to-heel.
>
> ATX motherboard design assumes grounded standoffs, and the
> PTH for the mount points are grounded inside the PCB as well.
> This is purposeful and part of the ESD strategy. The PCB drawing
> has keepout zones, where there aren't supposed to be any SMT
> caps or resistors for the standoff to touch. In this way, the
> board is mostly clear of shorting problems at the standoffs.
> And once you've done your "nudging" properly, like magic
> you'll see the screws and standoffs are nicely centered.
>
> Some motherboard problems are caused when the board bends
> a bit. There was one Asus motherboard, where unknown to Asus,
> the boards were leaving the factory, with "solder blobs".
> An excess of solder, caused by the wrong assembly order
> on the line. They were fitting a plastic CPU socket ring
> before running the board through the wave solder (could have
> been selective wave, instead of full wave). And solder
> was damming up under the plastic (where an inspector won't
> see it). If you bent the board a tiny bit, the two blobs
> would touch each other, shorting something out. The machine
> would shut down.
>
> Not all the seemingly standoff issues, are ohmic at the
> contact point. Some issues are caused by board flexure.
>
>    Paul

I appreciate the opportunity to learn from people like you
who really know all the right words! : ) I never encountered
ohmic before though, I may look that one up! ; ).

Cheers!

Re: weird freeze up problem

<sicdac$u1g$2@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

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From: T@invalid.invalid (T)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: weird freeze up problem
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 03:48:44 -0700
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Content-Language: en-DE
 by: T - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 10:48 UTC

On 9/21/21 2:34 AM, Paul wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> On 9/21/2021 3:22 AM, T wrote:
>>> On 9/18/21 4:49 AM, Paul wrote:
>>>> perfmon /rel
>>>
>>> They are all "Windows not properly shut down":
>>>
>>> https://ibb.co/LgtDNvh
>>>
>>>
>>> Temperature.bat
>>> Temperature with Thermal zones
>>> Temperature is in Kelvin * 10    C = (K / 10) - 273.15
>>> CurrentTemperature  InstanceName
>>> 3010                ACPI\ThermalZone\TZ00_0
>>>
>>> 27.85C
>>>
>>> :'(
>>>
>>> -T
>>>
>>
>>
>> Back when they sold semi-built computers (i.e. the main components
>> assembled in a case), someone put an "extra" "riser" in the case to
>> support the motherboard (for which there was no corresponding hole on
>> the motherboard).  And when the computer felt like it, such as when it
>> got warm, it would shutdown, and it did at least 2 or 3 times a weak.
>> It took me at least 3 months to deduce the problem.   I only tell this
>> story to inspire "-T"---"Where there's a will, there's a way!"  :)
>>
>
> As an experienced builder though, T knows all this stuff.
>
> Like, that there are alignment issues in the (X,Y) plane,
> as well as alignment issues on the Z axis.  When fitting
> a motherboard into a computer case.
>
> When you assemble a computer, the board needs to be "nudged a
> bit" in the (X,Y) plane, then you take sample cards and
> insert them in slot 1 and slot 6. You check for smooth card
> entry, no "bending" of the card, no "tilting from front to back"
> on the plugin card. Like in the case of Kens recent build,
> a customer might not have ordered any add-in cards whatsoever.
> But you as the builder, take one of your collection of test
> cards, and shove it into the slot, to verify the (X,Y) position
> is perfect. If the card is a jam/hammer fit, undo the
> screws, nudge the mobo a bit, tighten the screws and
> retry fitting the test add-in boards.
>
> In the Z axis direction, when you buy a computer case, the standoffs
> are *only* for that case. If you add a nylon washer above the
> standoff, that lifts the mobo up above the datum and causes
> plugin cards to tilt faceplate-to-heel.
>
> ATX motherboard design assumes grounded standoffs, and the
> PTH for the mount points are grounded inside the PCB as well.
> This is purposeful and part of the ESD strategy. The PCB drawing
> has keepout zones, where there aren't supposed to be any SMT
> caps or resistors for the standoff to touch. In this way, the
> board is mostly clear of shorting problems at the standoffs.
> And once you've done your "nudging" properly, like magic
> you'll see the screws and standoffs are nicely centered.
>
> Some motherboard problems are caused when the board bends
> a bit. There was one Asus motherboard, where unknown to Asus,
> the boards were leaving the factory, with "solder blobs".
> An excess of solder, caused by the wrong assembly order
> on the line. They were fitting a plastic CPU socket ring
> before running the board through the wave solder (could have
> been selective wave, instead of full wave). And solder
> was damming up under the plastic (where an inspector won't
> see it). If you bent the board a tiny bit, the two blobs
> would touch each other, shorting something out. The machine
> would shut down.
>
> Not all the seemingly standoff issues, are ohmic at the
> contact point. Some issues are caused by board flexure.
>
>    Paul

It is a Lenovo business class desktop

Re: weird freeze up problem

<siceef$5i3$2@dont-email.me>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=55801&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#55801

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From: nospam@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: weird freeze up problem
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 07:08:00 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Paul - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:08 UTC

T wrote:

>
> It is a Lenovo business class desktop

But when you're building stuff, you know
how to build stuff. I only learned this the
hard way, by making mistakes and realizing stuff.
You can't do too many builds using retail components,
before "there is a surprise". That's when the
learning happens :-)

Paul

Re: weird freeze up problem

<sidgue$qn8$1@dont-email.me>

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From: T@invalid.invalid (T)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: weird freeze up problem
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:56:44 -0700
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 by: T - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 20:56 UTC

On 9/21/21 4:08 AM, Paul wrote:
> T wrote:
>
>>
>> It is a Lenovo business class desktop
>
> But when you're building stuff, you know
> how to build stuff. I only learned this the
> hard way, by making mistakes and realizing stuff.
> You can't do too many builds using retail components,
> before "there is a surprise". That's when the
> learning happens :-)
>
>    Paul

It seems that every time I do a new build, I find
something. Usually it is a mechanical interference
or something. The case I use has a read 120 mm fan
port and a front 92 mm port. I use high quality
PWM fans

Some of the cases I have seen make my head spin.
I do not see how they manager to not fry everything
with heat build up. Not to mention hard as hell
to install things in them.

Re: weird freeze up problem

<sie5as$g92$1@dont-email.me>

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From: gone@phoenix.com (n/a)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: weird freeze up problem
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 22:44:44 -0400
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 by: n/a - Wed, 22 Sep 2021 02:44 UTC

"T" wrote in message news:sibu5j$ttb$1@dont-email.me...

On 9/20/21 8:41 PM, n/a wrote:
> Try this:
>
> https://blog.techinline.com/2021/01/08/remote-desktop-keeps-freezing-windows-10/
>
> Bob S.

Hi Bob,

"Reportedly, this issue can be attributed to using the UDP protocol
instead of TCP."

We are using TCP. Rats!

Thank you anyway!

-T

Not knowing all your particulars, try this on the clients local and remote
systems:

Run gpedit.msc.

Navigate to Computer Configuration > Administration Templates > Windows
Components > Remote Desktop Services > Remote Desktop Connection Client.

Set the "Turn Off UDP On Client" setting to Enabled.

Bob S

Re: weird freeze up problem

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From: T@invalid.invalid (T)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: weird freeze up problem
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 21:06:52 -0700
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 by: T - Wed, 22 Sep 2021 04:06 UTC

On 9/21/21 7:44 PM, n/a wrote:
>
>
> "T"  wrote in message news:sibu5j$ttb$1@dont-email.me...
>
> On 9/20/21 8:41 PM, n/a wrote:
>> Try this:
>>
>> https://blog.techinline.com/2021/01/08/remote-desktop-keeps-freezing-windows-10/
>>
>>
>> Bob S.
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> "Reportedly, this issue can be attributed to using the UDP protocol
> instead of TCP."
>
> We are using TCP. Rats!
>
> Thank you anyway!
>
> -T
>
> Not knowing all your particulars, try this on the clients local and
> remote systems:
>
> Run gpedit.msc.
>
> Navigate to Computer Configuration > Administration Templates > Windows
> Components > Remote Desktop Services > Remote Desktop Connection Client.
>
> Set the "Turn Off UDP On Client" setting to Enabled.
>
> Bob S

It is the server side that the entire computer is
freezing, no the client. And I am positive UDP
is not being used as I set up the SNAT on the
firewall and I only allow TCP to that port.

Cool setting though. Thank you anyway.

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