Dell Latitude E6330
Core i5-3340M 2.70 GHz processor
8 GB memory
500 GB Samsung SSD
Running latest version of Win 10

Will this box be able to run Win 11?

--
When a woman says “Correct me if I'm wrong”, do not under any- and I
mean any- circumstances do it

Wade Garrett wrote:

> Will this box be able to run Win 11?

With a 3rd gen i5, no you won't be able to upgrade to Win11, but you
ought to be able to wipe it and do a fresh install of Win11, which will
be unsupported.

Wade Garrett wrote:
> Dell Latitude E6330
> Core i5-3340M 2.70 GHz processor
> 8 GB memory
> 500 GB Samsung SSD
> Running latest version of Win 10
>
> Will this box be able to run Win 11?
>

There is no 3340 in the first list.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-intel-processors

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-amd-processors

At the current time, the Windows 11 is likely
to be very close to Windows 10, in terms of
hardware it can run on. But as time passes
they will turn on more of the features, at
which point you could switch on the machine
some day, to a "surprise".

Having a TPM to support Secure Boot (and on Home,
to cause the disk to be encrypted automatically),
you can check the Windows 10 TPM panel for your
TPM status. And whether one of those is available.

*******

And your CPU was doing quite well, too. You have three
items that allow an inverted hypervisor and allow nested
virtualization.

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/71257/intel-core-i5-3340m-processor-3m-cache-up-to-3-40-ghz.html

Intel Virtualization Technology (VT-x) Yes
Intel Virtualization Technology for Directed I/O (VT-d) Yes
Intel VT-x with Extended Page Tables (EPT) Yes

Winston claims there is one additional processor property,
which does not seem to merit a tick box on the Intel pages.
And the CPU list is partially determined by that. I'm a firm
believer in documentation and trace-ability, and I'd really
prefer Intel add a tick box, if there is something important
we should know about. This "sneaking around with lists" sucks.

Something else to consider, is the history of things
like VT-x. On a couple of occasions, there was software
which "absolutely had to have it". Yet a year after the
launch of said feature, the developers changed their tune
to "oh, not an absolute requirement, carry on".

And this is why the features should be laid out on the
table in plain sight. Then when they pull one of these
reversing actions, all the docs are there. Hiding in the
shadows is like "preparing to throw her into reverse gear".

I don't for a moment, think they will reverse directions
on their new design idea. But on the other hand, I've been
slapped in the face *twice* buying hardware I didn't need,
so the history on "reverse directions" is not good.

As a consequence of this history of chicanery, what I
would recommend to you, is stay tuned until 2025 and see
how things unfold. There is no rush to install it today.
And you can wait and see a bit, for what the eventual
outcome is.

I have nothing in the house to run this, so I won't be
seeing ten years of it in any case.

Paul

On 2021-09-14 11:45 a.m., Wade Garrett wrote:
> Dell Latitude E6330
> Core i5-3340M 2.70 GHz processor
> 8 GB memory
> 500 GB Samsung SSD
> Running latest version of Win 10
>
> Will this box be able to run Win 11?

No. It dates from around 2012.

--
@RabidHussar

On 9/14/21 12:07 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
> Wade Garrett wrote:
>
>> Will this box be able to run Win 11?
>
> With a 3rd gen i5, no you won't be able to upgrade to Win11, but you
> ought to be able to wipe it and do a fresh install of Win11, which will
> be unsupported.

How would I do that?

--
My wife asked me to take her to one of those restaurants where they make
the food right in front of you. So I took her to Subway...and that’s how
the fight started.

On 2021-09-14 12:07 p.m., Andy Burns wrote:
> Wade Garrett wrote:
>
>> Will this box be able to run Win 11?
>
> With a 3rd gen i5, no you won't be able to upgrade to Win11, but you
> ought to be able to wipe it and do a fresh install of Win11, which will
> be unsupported.

A third generation CPU like that would run Windows 11 without issue, but
Microsoft simply chooses not to support it because many of the security
features they plan to introduce won't be possible on such older
hardware. However, running Linux on the same hardware would not only be
fast but would allow for the same kind of security features anyway. I
truly believe that if a person wants to hold onto hardware which works
well and performs admirably for a decade or more, they might as well do
so and Linux will allow it. You _can_ simply hold onto Windows 10 though
and run it even after its support date has been reached.

--
@RabidHussar

On 9/14/21 12:44 PM, Paul wrote:
> Wade Garrett wrote:
>> Dell Latitude E6330
>> Core i5-3340M 2.70 GHz processor
>> 8 GB memory
>> 500 GB Samsung SSD
>> Running latest version of Win 10
>>
>> Will this box be able to run Win 11?
>>
>
> There is no 3340 in the first list.
>
> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-intel-processors
>
>
> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-amd-processors
>
>
> At the current time, the Windows 11 is likely
> to be very close to Windows 10, in terms of
> hardware it can run on. But as time passes
> they will turn on more of the features, at
> which point you could switch on the machine
> some day, to a "surprise".
>
> Having a TPM to support Secure Boot (and on Home,
> to cause the disk to be encrypted automatically),
> you can check the Windows 10 TPM panel for your
> TPM status. And whether one of those is available.
>
> *******
>
> And your CPU was doing quite well, too. You have three
> items that allow an inverted hypervisor and allow nested
> virtualization.
>
> https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/71257/intel-core-i5-3340m-processor-3m-cache-up-to-3-40-ghz.html
>
>
> Intel Virtualization Technology (VT-x)                  Yes
> Intel Virtualization Technology for Directed I/O (VT-d) Yes
> Intel VT-x with Extended Page Tables (EPT)              Yes
>
> Winston claims there is one additional processor property,
> which does not seem to merit a tick box on the Intel pages.
> And the CPU list is partially determined by that. I'm a firm
> believer in documentation and trace-ability, and I'd really
> prefer Intel add a tick box, if there is something important
> we should know about. This "sneaking around with lists" sucks.
>
> Something else to consider, is the history of things
> like VT-x. On a couple of occasions, there was software
> which "absolutely had to have it". Yet a year after the
> launch of said feature, the developers changed their tune
> to "oh, not an absolute requirement, carry on".
>
> And this is why the features should be laid out on the
> table in plain sight. Then when they pull one of these
> reversing actions, all the docs are there. Hiding in the
> shadows is like "preparing to throw her into reverse gear".
>
> I don't for a moment, think they will reverse directions
> on their new design idea. But on the other hand, I've been
> slapped in the face *twice* buying hardware I didn't need,
> so the history on "reverse directions" is not good.
>
> As a consequence of this history of chicanery, what I
> would recommend to you, is stay tuned until 2025 and see
> how things unfold. There is no rush to install it today.
> And you can wait and see a bit, for what the eventual
> outcome is.
>
> I have nothing in the house to run this, so I won't be
> seeing ten years of it in any case.
>
>    Paul

So that would be a No?

--
Karl Marx is an historically prominent figure...but no one ever mentions
his sister Onya who invented the Starter’s Pistol

On 2021-09-14 1:11 p.m., Wade Garrett wrote:
> On 9/14/21 12:07 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Wade Garrett wrote:
>>
>>> Will this box be able to run Win 11?
>>
>> With a 3rd gen i5, no you won't be able to upgrade to Win11, but you
>> ought to be able to wipe it and do a fresh install of Win11, which
>> will be unsupported.
>
> How would I do that?

Download the MediaCreationTool, have it copy the ISO onto a USB stick,
boot from the USB stick instead of directly into your Windows install,
delete all partitions and reinstall from a clean slate.

--
@RabidHussar

Wade Garrett wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> you ought to be able to wipe it and do a fresh install of Win11,
>> which will be unsupported.
>
> How would I do that?

start with format c:

ok, maybe start with a backup, then format c:

On 2021-09-14 1:21 p.m., Andy Burns wrote:
> Wade Garrett wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> you ought to be able to wipe it and do a fresh install of Win11,
>>> which will be unsupported.
>>
>> How would I do that?
>
> start with format c:
>
> ok, maybe start with a backup, then format c:

Nobody deals with format c: anymore. This isn't 1994 anymore.

--
@RabidHussar

RabidHussar wrote:

> Nobody deals with format c: anymore. This isn't 1994 anymore.

it's more of a figure of speech, if you know what it means you ought to
be able to handle installing win11

On 2021-09-14 1:45 p.m., Andy Burns wrote:
> RabidHussar wrote:
>
>> Nobody deals with format c: anymore. This isn't 1994 anymore.
>
> it's more of a figure of speech, if you know what it means you ought to
> be able to handle installing win11

Absolutely, but booting into USB generally does all of those commands
for you when you proceed with the installation of Windows.

--
@RabidHussar

Wade Garrett wrote:

>
> So that would be a No?

Officially, no.

*******

I'm currently running W11 beta (Insider) on a
machine not rated for it, and it works.

But it won't work for long. They'll break it.
My machine doesn't have a TPM or an fTPM,
so when Oct.5 comes along, I'll be blocked
from using that one. While there is a "recipe"
for transferring the install.esd to another
Windows 10 media (mixing materials from two install
discs), that is likely to be blocked on the
Oct.5 image as well.

While they may offer to allow you to
"run it unsupported", it's really a battle when
you do things like that. If you just want to
use the thing, and it's your "daily driver" PC,
then you don't want a lot of overhang in such
situations.

If something tips over here, I'm not really
inconvenienced. Both machines have multiple OSes
to choose from. But when 2025 arrives, I won't
be supported at that point, on any of them.

But, I'm very relaxed, and there's no reason to
get excited at the moment. Once the container
features are switched on, it's quite possible the
older machines will feel a bit too slow. We can wait
for the test results to come in, to form an opinion
on that. Things like Office, may run in containers.

Paul

Andy Burns wrote:
> Wade Garrett wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> you ought to be able to wipe it and do a fresh install of Win11,
>>> which will be unsupported.
>>
>> How would I do that?
>
> start with format c:
>
> ok, maybe start with a backup, then format c:
>

One way to erase a disk drive:

1) Windows installer DVD in hand.
2) Boot the DVD.
3) Select Troubleshooting, then the Command Prompt
4) diskpart # Be careful with this!!! You're erasing stuff.
list disk
select disk 1
clean # takes a couple seconds, removes partition table
exit
5) Close the Command Prompt window.
Then, do whatever else you had in mind.

One thing I like about that sequence, is it removes the
"GPT smell" from the disk drive. It makes OS installer discs
"behave better", if the smell is gone before an install
attempt. I've had trouble before, where an install will
go some way along, before telling me it smells GPT and
I should really be booting UEFI or whatever. The "clean"
command removes the MBR table, as well as both GPT tables.
Other tools and methods, tend to "miss" the backup GPT table, and
that's how the smell stays there.

One other issue for Windows 11, is the DVD expects
to boot in UEFI mode during the installation. If
a computer is not UEFI... hmmm. Kaboom.

You can see someone here, checking their Win10 machine to
see how it is booting. This one happens to be Legacy Mode,
which Windows 11 is not likely to support, because of
its "security stance". UEFI/Secure Boot/TPM go hand in hand.

https://i2.wp.com/itsfoss.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/BIOS-windows.png?w=800&ssl=1

On an OEM machine, it should have been configured for a "modern"
configuration, and if you have UEFI, the BIOS line should reflect
that the OEM used the UEFI mode (whether Secure Boot ON or OFF).
The System Information line, merely reflects how the OS was
installed. If it says UEFI, you know for sure the machine is
UEFI-capable. If it said Legacy, it can get that way if the
owner messes about and nukes and paves it and uses UEFI+CSM to
install in Legacy mode (provided by CSM) instead.

You can't always tell, by looking at the BIOS screen, what they are.
My laptop, uses an Insyde brand BIOS, and the settings are so
sparse, it's hard to conclude anything about it. Whereas my
desktop computer, has a ton of hints as to what it is.

Paul

RabidHussar wrote:

> You _can_ simply hold onto Windows 10 though
> and run it even after its support date has been reached.

Exactly. No reason to panic.

Microsoft might even have a plan by then.

Paul

On 9/14/21 1:19 PM, RabidHussar wrote:
> On 2021-09-14 1:11 p.m., Wade Garrett wrote:
>> On 9/14/21 12:07 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Wade Garrett wrote:
>>>
>>>> Will this box be able to run Win 11?
>>>
>>> With a 3rd gen i5, no you won't be able to upgrade to Win11, but you
>>> ought to be able to wipe it and do a fresh install of Win11, which
>>> will be unsupported.
>>
>> How would I do that?
>
> Download the MediaCreationTool, have it copy the ISO onto a USB stick,
> boot from the USB stick instead of directly into your Windows install,
> delete all partitions and reinstall from a clean slate.
>
>
Thanks, I can do that!

On 9/14/21 1:12 PM, RabidHussar wrote:
> On 2021-09-14 12:07 p.m., Andy Burns wrote:
>> Wade Garrett wrote:
>>
>>> Will this box be able to run Win 11?
>>
>> With a 3rd gen i5, no you won't be able to upgrade to Win11, but you
>> ought to be able to wipe it and do a fresh install of Win11, which
>> will be unsupported.
>
> A third generation CPU like that would run Windows 11 without issue, but
> Microsoft simply chooses not to support it because many of the security
> features they plan to introduce won't be possible on such older
> hardware. However, running Linux on the same hardware would not only be
> fast but would allow for the same kind of security features anyway. I
> truly believe that if a person wants to hold onto hardware which works
> well and performs admirably for a decade or more, they might as well do
> so and Linux will allow it. You _can_ simply hold onto Windows 10 though
> and run it even after its support date has been reached.
>
I like Linux too but I need to keep it a Windows machine.

For the last dozen years, I've been all-Apple. I bought the refurb Dell
because once in a while, I need to do or access something that can't be
done on a Mac-- only via Windows.

RabidHussar wrote:
> On 2021-09-14 1:45 p.m., Andy Burns wrote:
>> RabidHussar wrote:
>>
>>> Nobody deals with format c: anymore. This isn't 1994 anymore.
>>
>> it's more of a figure of speech, if you know what it means you ought
>> to be able to handle installing win11
>
> Absolutely, but booting into USB generally does all of those commands
> for you when you proceed with the installation of Windows.
>

You can make some modifications from the Custom option
of the installer DVD.

But erasing the disk drive before that, leaves less
to chance.

You would be surprised (shocked even), at the number
of stupid things that can happen if you don't clean
off the drive. I've fallen for most of them. Misaligned
partitions. Partitions with the wrong cluster size.
You name it, I've tried it :-)

Some of my problems come from using old data drives
as boot drives, without sufficient hygiene.

Paul

On 9/14/2021 12:07 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
> Wade Garrett wrote:
>
>> Will this box be able to run Win 11?
>
> With a 3rd gen i5, no you won't be able to upgrade to Win11, but you
> ought to be able to wipe it and do a fresh install of Win11, which will
> be unsupported.
If Windows 11 will not upgrade a windows 10 computer without wiping the
disk and all the BS, then my computers will continue to run Windows 10.

Gone are the days that upgrades were limited to specific hardware. If
MS will not load in the older computers they will be cutting their own
throats, as there are a double digit percentages of old computers and
many people will not upgrade until they get rid of their old computer
when it dies years in the future

On 9/14/21 9:07 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
> Wade Garrett wrote:
>
>> Will this box be able to run Win 11?
>
> With a 3rd gen i5, no you won't be able to upgrade to Win11, but you
> ought to be able to wipe it and do a fresh install of Win11, which will
> be unsupported.

Hi Andy,

M$'s W11 hardware check says "Coming soon". On my
qemu-kvm virtual W11, I am using a i440x processor
and it does its upgrades fine. Well, after I installed
the TPM module.

Whilst waiting for M$, I have been using:

https://www.easeus.com/campaign/2021-windows11-upgrade-checker.html

Where did you see the 8th gen requirement?

-T

On 2021-09-14 2:40 p.m., Paul wrote:
> RabidHussar wrote:
>
>> You _can_ simply hold onto Windows 10 though and run it even after its
>> support date has been reached.
>
> Exactly. No reason to panic.
>
> Microsoft might even have a plan by then.

They might, but the safer route in case you don't want to abandon your
functional and sufficiently-fast hardware is to just install Linux on it.

--
@RabidHussar

On 2021-09-14 3:05 p.m., Wade Garrett wrote:
> On 9/14/21 1:12 PM, RabidHussar wrote:
>> On 2021-09-14 12:07 p.m., Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Wade Garrett wrote:
>>>
>>>> Will this box be able to run Win 11?
>>>
>>> With a 3rd gen i5, no you won't be able to upgrade to Win11, but you
>>> ought to be able to wipe it and do a fresh install of Win11, which
>>> will be unsupported.
>>
>> A third generation CPU like that would run Windows 11 without issue,
>> but Microsoft simply chooses not to support it because many of the
>> security features they plan to introduce won't be possible on such
>> older hardware. However, running Linux on the same hardware would not
>> only be fast but would allow for the same kind of security features
>> anyway. I truly believe that if a person wants to hold onto hardware
>> which works well and performs admirably for a decade or more, they
>> might as well do so and Linux will allow it. You _can_ simply hold
>> onto Windows 10 though and run it even after its support date has been
>> reached.
>>
> I like Linux too but I need to keep it a Windows machine.
>
> For the last dozen years, I've been all-Apple. I bought the refurb Dell
> because once in a while, I need to do or access something that can't be
> done on a Mac-- only via Windows.

I'm using Windows on both of my computers too but mostly because I need
to make sure that Teams works right (on the older laptop) and because I
like to play games like FIFA (on the new laptop). If ever I stop playing
games entirely, I will do absolutely everything that I need to do in
Linux. Even my work e-mails work great in Thunderbird with a plug-in,
despite the servers being MAPI.

--
@RabidHussar

T wrote:
> On 9/14/21 9:07 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Wade Garrett wrote:
>>
>>> Will this box be able to run Win 11?
>>
>> With a 3rd gen i5, no you won't be able to upgrade to Win11, but you
>> ought to be able to wipe it and do a fresh install of Win11, which
>> will be unsupported.
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> M$'s W11 hardware check says "Coming soon". On my
> qemu-kvm virtual W11, I am using a i440x processor
> and it does its upgrades fine. Well, after I installed
> the TPM module.
>
> Whilst waiting for M$, I have been using:
>
> https://www.easeus.com/campaign/2021-windows11-upgrade-checker.html
>
> Where did you see the 8th gen requirement?
>
> -T

While your Windows 10 VM is booted in this "i440x" environment, try

Start : Run : msinfo32

In my Win10 setup in VirtualBox (set to PIIX3 chipset), the environment
correctly sniffs the CPU characteristic as E8400 (the typing machine).

Give it a try on yours, and you'll notice it's transparent.
By means of privileged system calls, basically the same stuff
as the Intel PIU (Processor Identification Utility) code, these
environments can figure out what they're running on.

On the one hand, an application running in such an
environment might say "Pentium II CPU, AVX512 present".
Applications make no pretense about absurd combinations.
No application stops on a dime, because of some idiotic
virtual machine side effect, and this is fortunate. This
is partially because, BIOS in the past have made mistakes
on CPU identification, and programs know they should
not trust "Pentium II CPU" when it comes from the more
dodgy detection methods (fake BIOS declaration).

For fun, in your Windows VM, track down the Intel PIU
meant for graphical OS usage, and run that, and it too
will do a successful identification. Even your Linux
VMs, they should have no trouble at all, like Inxi,
identifying the platform correctly.

The 440BX chipset setting you are using, that tells
the Hosting software to "pretend there are two IDE
ribbon cables". For example, in VirtualBox, you may
be presented with various storage spigots by default.
And by changing the chipset, you might notice the
flavor changes from IDE to SATA as a function of chipset.

VMs are very much an ugly, mixed bag. And they're
not as "insulating" as you might think. Any application
software seeking to catch you using a VM, has no trouble
at all with all the inconsistencies it detects.

Paul

Wade Garrett <Wade@cooler.net> wrote:
> On 9/14/21 1:12 PM, RabidHussar wrote:
>> On 2021-09-14 12:07 p.m., Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Wade Garrett wrote:
>>>
>>>> Will this box be able to run Win 11?
>>>
>>> With a 3rd gen i5, no you won't be able to upgrade to Win11, but you
>>> ought to be able to wipe it and do a fresh install of Win11, which
>>> will be unsupported.
>>
>> A third generation CPU like that would run Windows 11 without issue, but
>> Microsoft simply chooses not to support it because many of the security
>> features they plan to introduce won't be possible on such older
>> hardware. However, running Linux on the same hardware would not only be
>> fast but would allow for the same kind of security features anyway. I
>> truly believe that if a person wants to hold onto hardware which works
>> well and performs admirably for a decade or more, they might as well do
>> so and Linux will allow it. You _can_ simply hold onto Windows 10 though
>> and run it even after its support date has been reached.
>>
> I like Linux too but I need to keep it a Windows machine.
>
> For the last dozen years, I've been all-Apple. I bought the refurb Dell
> because once in a while, I need to do or access something that can't be
> done on a Mac-- only via Windows.

You can run windows on (intel) Macs. no need to buy additional hardware.

RabidHussar <rabid@huss.ar> wrote:
> On 2021-09-14 3:05 p.m., Wade Garrett wrote:
>> On 9/14/21 1:12 PM, RabidHussar wrote:
>>> On 2021-09-14 12:07 p.m., Andy Burns wrote:
>>>> Wade Garrett wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Will this box be able to run Win 11?
>>>>
>>>> With a 3rd gen i5, no you won't be able to upgrade to Win11, but you
>>>> ought to be able to wipe it and do a fresh install of Win11, which
>>>> will be unsupported.
>>>
>>> A third generation CPU like that would run Windows 11 without issue,
>>> but Microsoft simply chooses not to support it because many of the
>>> security features they plan to introduce won't be possible on such
>>> older hardware. However, running Linux on the same hardware would not
>>> only be fast but would allow for the same kind of security features
>>> anyway. I truly believe that if a person wants to hold onto hardware
>>> which works well and performs admirably for a decade or more, they
>>> might as well do so and Linux will allow it. You _can_ simply hold
>>> onto Windows 10 though and run it even after its support date has been
>>> reached.
>>>
>> I like Linux too but I need to keep it a Windows machine.
>>
>> For the last dozen years, I've been all-Apple. I bought the refurb Dell
>> because once in a while, I need to do or access something that can't be
>> done on a Mac-- only via Windows.
>
> I'm using Windows on both of my computers too but mostly because I need
> to make sure that Teams works right (on the older laptop) and because I
> like to play games like FIFA (on the new laptop). If ever I stop playing
> games entirely, I will do absolutely everything that I need to do in
> Linux.

Games are pretty much the only reason I have a windows machine at home.

> Even my work e-mails work great in Thunderbird with a plug-in,
> despite the servers being MAPI.
>