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computers / alt.internet.wireless / Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?

SubjectAuthor
* What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?Andy Burnelli
+* Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?Chris Green
|`* Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?Andy Burnelli
| `* Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacyJeff Layman
|  `* Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?Andy Burnelli
|   `* Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacyJeff Layman
|    +- Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?Andy Burnelli
|    `* Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacyJoerg Lorenz
|     `* Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacyJeff Layman
|      `- Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?Andy Burnelli
`* Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacyCarlos E.R.
 +* Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?Andy Burnelli
 |`- Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacyCarlos E.R.
 `* Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacyJoerg Lorenz
  `* Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacyCarlos E.R.
   `* Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?Andy Burnelli
    `* Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacyCarlos E.R.
     `- Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?Andy Burnelli

1
What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?

<tk8min$io2$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spam@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,alt.privacy,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2022 16:15:28 +0000
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Sun, 6 Nov 2022 16:15 UTC

What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?

Offhand, here are some of the steps I do that are privacy based in nature:
1. I turn off the location until/unless I need it
2. I turn off the "precise location" (which is a big privacy hole)
3. I turn off, by default, all unused radios (bluetooth, nfc, etc.)
4. I turn on a system-wide firewall to not allow unauthorized connections
5. I replace mothership tracking apps with privacy aware FOSS replacements
6. I don't sign into any mothership on the device
7. I don't allow any app permissions it doesn't need
8. I don't allow an app to store anything it doesn't need (e.g., cookies)
9. I don't install any app requiring an account it doesn't need
10. I used to reset the advertising id but now I delete it entirely
11. I set my Wi-Fi AP to not broadcast (not for security but for privacy)
12. I name the SSID with "_nomap" (only for additional Internet privacy)
13. I set AP SSID/passwd as unique as possible (butterfly hash tables)
14. I set the phone to randomize the MAC address per SSID
15. I set the phone to randomize the MAC address per CONNECTION
16. I set the phone Wi-Fi to NOT auto-reconnect when the signal is dropped

What additional privacy based steps do you do that can edify us all?
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information
which in this case is how better to use Android and maintain some privacy.

Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?

<qr7l3j-o4kr.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>

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From: cl@isbd.net (Chris Green)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,alt.privacy,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?
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 by: Chris Green - Sun, 6 Nov 2022 17:35 UTC

Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> wrote:
> What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?
>
I don't use it for anything where privacy matters and I have no
accounts on it (i.e. I don't have an associated Google account).

--
Chris Green
ยท

Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?

<tk8vso$tv3$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spam@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,alt.privacy,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2022 18:54:25 +0000
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Sun, 6 Nov 2022 18:54 UTC

Chris Green wrote:

> Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> wrote:
>> What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?
>>
> I don't use it for anything where privacy matters and I have no
> accounts on it (i.e. I don't have an associated Google account).

I'm in the same boat you are, as is everyone else.
Functionality first, privacy second.

Not having the Android phone set to a Google account is, in my opinion and
yours apparently, a good tradeoff between functionality & privacy.

No great loss of functionaity versus a great enhancement in privacy.
That's a fair deal in my book (and, apparently, in yours).

Having set up umpteen Android phones for privacy, I appreciate your
confirmation there are others who don't associate the phone with any Google
Account.

However, in the functionality first, privacy second set of tradeoffs, there
are "some" Google apps which provide a functionality that no other app can
provide, are there not?

Take the simple example of owning a Google Account, which gives you the
functional advantage of 15GB of email storage (and spam filtering).

Can we get that functionality elsewhere for a good tradeoff in privacy?
I've found protonmail isn't close. Neither is Yahoo. Nor Apple mail.

Luckily, we can still obtain a reasonable functionality first, privacy
second tradeoff (IMHO), if we ditch the Google GMail app on Android, and
use any decent FOSS privacy aware replacement MUA, such as FairMail.
https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail

A counterintuitive fact of the functionality first privacy second
calculation, paradoxically so, is that the same GMail app on iOS is more
private than the GMail app is on Android.

That's because the instant you log into the GMail app on Android, whether
or not you want it to do so, it _creates_ a Google Account on the phone!

Yet the iOS GMail app does not.
What do I do then to preserve functionality & privacy?

I use GMail on iOS and on Android I use FairMail instead.

There are other similar calculations that I run which others may benefit
from my clarifications, where, for example, the Google Voice app provides
functionality that I can't find elsewhere for citizens of the USA.

While WhatsApp provides similar functionality (in a different way) to
European citizens, in the USA most of us use cellphones and landlines.

The Google Voice app provides free USA cellphone & landline calls, both
ways, to a POTS number, and that's an important funcdtionality.

However... as with the GMail app on Android, the instant you log into a
Google Voice account on Android, the Google Account is created on Android.

Not so with iOS.

Hence, yet again, to balance functionality & privacy, I use the iPad as a
speakerphone telephone (via the Google Voice app) while I completely shun
Google Voice capability on Android.

It would be interesting to learn from others who care about the
functionality and privacy calculations what other ways there are on Android
to preserve as much as we can of both.

Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?

<36il3j-b6k.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,alt.privacy,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy
purposes?
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2022 21:31:31 +0100
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In-Reply-To: <tk8min$io2$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Carlos E.R. - Sun, 6 Nov 2022 20:31 UTC

On 2022-11-06 17:15, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?
>
> Offhand, here are some of the steps I do that are privacy based in nature:
> 1. I turn off the location until/unless I need it 2. I turn off the
> "precise location" (which is a big privacy hole)
> 3. I turn off, by default, all unused radios (bluetooth, nfc, etc.)
> 4. I turn on a system-wide firewall to not allow unauthorized connections
> 5. I replace mothership tracking apps with privacy aware FOSS replacements
> 6. I don't sign into any mothership on the device
> 7. I don't allow any app permissions it doesn't need
> 8. I don't allow an app to store anything it doesn't need (e.g., cookies)
> 9. I don't install any app requiring an account it doesn't need
> 10. I used to reset the advertising id but now I delete it entirely
> 11. I set my Wi-Fi AP to not broadcast (not for security but for privacy)
> 12. I name the SSID with "_nomap" (only for additional Internet privacy)
> 13. I set AP SSID/passwd as unique as possible (butterfly hash tables)
> 14. I set the phone to randomize the MAC address per SSID
> 15. I set the phone to randomize the MAC address per CONNECTION 16. I
> set the phone Wi-Fi to NOT auto-reconnect when the signal is dropped

Nothing of the above.

Maybe some permissions some times.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?

<tk97gb$era$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spam@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,alt.privacy,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2022 21:04:20 +0000
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Sun, 6 Nov 2022 21:04 UTC

Carlos E.R. wrote:

> Maybe some permissions some times.

Hi Carlos,
On the permissions, do you let them expire by default?

Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?

<tk9aqs$g7np$1@solani.org>

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From: hugybear@gmx.ch (Joerg Lorenz)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,alt.privacy,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy
purposes?
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2022 23:01:00 +0100
Message-ID: <tk9aqs$g7np$1@solani.org>
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 by: Joerg Lorenz - Sun, 6 Nov 2022 22:01 UTC

Am 06.11.22 um 21:31 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
> On 2022-11-06 17:15, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>> What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?
>>
>> Offhand, here are some of the steps I do that are privacy based in nature:
>> 1. I turn off the location until/unless I need it 2. I turn off the
>> "precise location" (which is a big privacy hole)
>> 3. I turn off, by default, all unused radios (bluetooth, nfc, etc.)
>> 4. I turn on a system-wide firewall to not allow unauthorized connections
>> 5. I replace mothership tracking apps with privacy aware FOSS replacements
>> 6. I don't sign into any mothership on the device
>> 7. I don't allow any app permissions it doesn't need
>> 8. I don't allow an app to store anything it doesn't need (e.g., cookies)
>> 9. I don't install any app requiring an account it doesn't need
>> 10. I used to reset the advertising id but now I delete it entirely
>> 11. I set my Wi-Fi AP to not broadcast (not for security but for privacy)
>> 12. I name the SSID with "_nomap" (only for additional Internet privacy)
>> 13. I set AP SSID/passwd as unique as possible (butterfly hash tables)
>> 14. I set the phone to randomize the MAC address per SSID
>> 15. I set the phone to randomize the MAC address per CONNECTION 16. I
>> set the phone Wi-Fi to NOT auto-reconnect when the signal is dropped
>
> Nothing of the above.
>
> Maybe some permissions some times.

*ROTFLSTC*. Doesn't surpise me at all.

--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?

<30ql3j-rru.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,alt.privacy,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy
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In-Reply-To: <tk9aqs$g7np$1@solani.org>
 by: Carlos E.R. - Sun, 6 Nov 2022 22:44 UTC

On 2022-11-06 23:01, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 06.11.22 um 21:31 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
>> On 2022-11-06 17:15, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>> What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?
>>>
>>> Offhand, here are some of the steps I do that are privacy based in nature:
>>> 1. I turn off the location until/unless I need it 2. I turn off the
>>> "precise location" (which is a big privacy hole)
>>> 3. I turn off, by default, all unused radios (bluetooth, nfc, etc.)
>>> 4. I turn on a system-wide firewall to not allow unauthorized connections
>>> 5. I replace mothership tracking apps with privacy aware FOSS replacements
>>> 6. I don't sign into any mothership on the device
>>> 7. I don't allow any app permissions it doesn't need
>>> 8. I don't allow an app to store anything it doesn't need (e.g., cookies)
>>> 9. I don't install any app requiring an account it doesn't need
>>> 10. I used to reset the advertising id but now I delete it entirely
>>> 11. I set my Wi-Fi AP to not broadcast (not for security but for privacy)
>>> 12. I name the SSID with "_nomap" (only for additional Internet privacy)
>>> 13. I set AP SSID/passwd as unique as possible (butterfly hash tables)
>>> 14. I set the phone to randomize the MAC address per SSID
>>> 15. I set the phone to randomize the MAC address per CONNECTION 16. I
>>> set the phone Wi-Fi to NOT auto-reconnect when the signal is dropped
>>
>> Nothing of the above.
>>
>> Maybe some permissions some times.
>
> *ROTFLSTC*. Doesn't surpise me at all.
>

:-)

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?

<evpl3j-rru.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,alt.privacy,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy
purposes?
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2022 23:44:30 +0100
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In-Reply-To: <tk97gb$era$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Carlos E.R. - Sun, 6 Nov 2022 22:44 UTC

On 2022-11-06 22:04, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>> Maybe some permissions some times.
>
> Hi Carlos,
> On the permissions, do you let them expire by default?

No.

I disable removal of permissions, and cycle use each app so that
permissions do not expire.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?

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 by: Jeff Layman - Mon, 7 Nov 2022 08:03 UTC

On 06/11/2022 18:54, Andy Burnelli wrote:

> It would be interesting to learn from others who care about the
> functionality and privacy calculations what other ways there are on Android
> to preserve as much as we can of both.

Other than what you and others have suggested, the problem is it's an
unknown moving target.

You noticed your unwanted Google account being created from using Gmail
on the phone. More to the point is when it's not obvious what Google is
doing in the background. And, to be fair, it's not only Google. I have a
Huawei phone which, like many manufacturers, runs a modified version of
Android (particularly so with Chinese phones after their disagreement
with Google). So what is /that/ version doing in the background? It
might be different from what Google Android is doing. Let's not forget
that the hardware is supplied by Huawei too; any "backdoors" in those
chips? And then, of course, you have the cellphone signal provider.
Everything goes through them, so if it's unencrypted...

As it's possible to have more than one Google account associated with a
single cellphone, perhaps jumping between accounts when using the phone
might cause some confusion at Google HQ (although I'm sure they can work
their way round that).

--

Jeff

Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?

<tkb8ol$1gll$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spam@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,alt.privacy,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2022 15:38:08 +0000
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Mon, 7 Nov 2022 15:38 UTC

Jeff Layman wrote:

> Other than what you and others have suggested, the problem is it's an
> unknown moving target.

Hi Jeff,

I want to learn whatever I can from people like you and Jeff Liebermann!

Yes. Indeed. You are completely correct. We can only protect against what
we already know to be a threat (usually based on a news article or two).

Hence I agree with your observation that it's not only a "moving" target,
it's a "growing" target, like snowball rolling down the hill on soft snow.

That's why, I think, we need each other. You know a lot. I know a lot.
Jeff Liebermann knows a lot.

Lot's of people know a lot more than any one of us.

> You noticed your unwanted Google account being created from using Gmail
> on the phone.

Yes Jeff. I noticed this _only_ accidentally, since all of a sudden I had a
Google Account on my phone. WTF? Where'd that come from, I thought. So I
deleted it. And then it came back. That's when I was able to reproduce why.
(Same with Google Voice, or logging into Google Maps, etc., as I recall).

Some privacy things we notice because they're overt, such as the SSID_nomap
privacy items, but some aren't obvious - such as the fact Wigle does NOT
respect the _nomap request (AFAIK).

Then you have to come up with things that are NOT obvious, which is why
a.i.w is involved in this thread, since your SOHO router comes into play
with mobile phone privacy. Allow me to outline, briefly, what that's so...

a. You know about butterfly hash tables so you set your SOHO SSID unique
b. In addition, you know about _nomap (& _optout_) for Google/Mozilla
c. And you know it's not only your SSID but your unique SSN & GPS location
d. Where SSN in here points out that the _AP MAC is unique_ to you alone
e. And no, as Jeff Liebermann knows, that AP MAC can not easily be spoofed
f. So you dutifully set the (already unique) SOHO SSID to append _nomap
g. You "think" that _nomaop prevents it being "uploaded" to Google/Mozilla
h. But (almost) every Android phone _still_ uploads your SSID to the net!
i. WTF? Then you realize, it's on the Google server the _nomap is respected
j. Worse, you find out that Wigle & NetStumbler maybe don't respect _nomap
k. Now what? You think. You ponder. You google. You search.
l. You come up with an idea after testing how Android handles hidden SSIDs
m. What if you make the SSID _hidden_ (i.e., not broadcast) you ponder?
n. You search a bit more and you find it that maybe that will work
o. If you don't broadcast the SSID, then it's NOT uploaded to the net!
p. At least not for most Android phones that don't have Wigle/Netstumbler
q. But a hidden SSID opens up another privacy can of worms, doesn't it.
r. Now you have to set your phone to _look_ for that hidden SSID
s. That means everywhere you go, your phone _broadcasts_ that hidden SSID
t. Yikes! So you set your phone to NOT re-connect after losing signal
u. While you're at it, you set Android 10+ to a random MAC per SSID
v. On Android 11+ Developer options, you set a random MAC per connection
w. So now, when the connection drops, it doesn't ask to reconnect at home
x. But the benefit is it doesn't broadcast your unique SSID outside home
y. You could have accomplished that task with an automated home geofence
z. But that would necessitate location - which is another can of worms!

Jeff... I ran out of letters, so I'll stop there... but it goes on,
which is your point and which is mine where, I can't help but logically
and rationally reasonably agree with you that it's hard to protect
against what we don't know about...

But at least we can protect against what we _do_ know about.

> More to the point is when it's not obvious what Google is
> doing in the background. And, to be fair, it's not only Google.

Oh indeed!
Take the case of turning on location (which comes after "z" above)!

How many people know that when Google Maps turns on "location" it uses its
own Google-specific activity which is different from the "normal" location.
Action = ACTION.MAIN (android.intent.action.MAIN)
Package Name = com.google.android.gms
Class Name = com.google.android.gms.location.settings.LocationAccuracyActivity
Category = CATEGORY.LAUNCHER (android.intent.category.LAUNCHER)

Every other method to turn on location does _not_ use that - they use this:
ACTION: "android.intent.action.MAIN"
PACKAGE: "com.android.settings"
CLASS: "com.android.settings.Settings$ScanningSettingsActivity"

They do different things!
Pop Quiz!

Guess which one turns on lots more privacy losing stuff, Jeff!
C'mon. Guess!

C:\> adb shell am start -n com.google.android.gms/.location.settings.LocationAccuracyActivity

> I have a
> Huawei phone which, like many manufacturers, runs a modified version of
> Android (particularly so with Chinese phones after their disagreement
> with Google). So what is /that/ version doing in the background? It
> might be different from what Google Android is doing. Let's not forget
> that the hardware is supplied by Huawei too; any "backdoors" in those
> chips? And then, of course, you have the cellphone signal provider.
> Everything goes through them, so if it's unencrypted...

Yup. We need debugging information.
We can use adb for "some" of that, but the problem I have with adb is that
I don't understand yet how best to cull the output into something usable.

C:\> adb shell am start -n com.google.android.gms/.gcm.GcmDiagnostics
(take a look at the mtalk.google.com traffic, for example)

> As it's possible to have more than one Google account associated with a
> single cellphone, perhaps jumping between accounts when using the phone
> might cause some confusion at Google HQ (although I'm sure they can work
> their way round that).

Hmmmmm...... I never thought of having even one account, let alone multiple
accounts, but I prefer no account on the phone (or on the Windows PC).

What I'd love to know is what other privacy measures I can take on either.
Any suggestions?
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information
which, in this case, is to logically agree with Jeff's comments and to
flesh out for the benefit of all what kinds of questions we need to ask.

Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?

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From: Jeff@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,alt.privacy,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy
purposes?
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2022 21:50:32 +0000
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 by: Jeff Layman - Tue, 8 Nov 2022 21:50 UTC

On 07/11/2022 15:38, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>> Other than what you and others have suggested, the problem is it's an
>> unknown moving target.
>
> Hi Jeff,
>
> I want to learn whatever I can from people like you and Jeff Liebermann!

I doubt you'll learn anything from me you don't already know, except
perhaps to be overcautious and not use your phone for *anything* where
you require even the smallest amount of privacy.

> Yes. Indeed. You are completely correct. We can only protect against what
> we already know to be a threat (usually based on a news article or two).
>
> Hence I agree with your observation that it's not only a "moving" target,
> it's a "growing" target, like snowball rolling down the hill on soft snow.
>
> That's why, I think, we need each other. You know a lot. I know a lot.
> Jeff Liebermann knows a lot.
>
> Lot's of people know a lot more than any one of us.
>
>> You noticed your unwanted Google account being created from using Gmail
>> on the phone.
>
> Yes Jeff. I noticed this _only_ accidentally, since all of a sudden I had a
> Google Account on my phone. WTF? Where'd that come from, I thought. So I
> deleted it. And then it came back. That's when I was able to reproduce why.
> (Same with Google Voice, or logging into Google Maps, etc., as I recall).
>
> Some privacy things we notice because they're overt, such as the SSID_nomap
> privacy items, but some aren't obvious - such as the fact Wigle does NOT
> respect the _nomap request (AFAIK).
>
> Then you have to come up with things that are NOT obvious, which is why
> a.i.w is involved in this thread, since your SOHO router comes into play
> with mobile phone privacy. Allow me to outline, briefly, what that's so...
>
> a. You know about butterfly hash tables so you set your SOHO SSID unique
> b. In addition, you know about _nomap (& _optout_) for Google/Mozilla
> c. And you know it's not only your SSID but your unique SSN & GPS location
> d. Where SSN in here points out that the _AP MAC is unique_ to you alone
> e. And no, as Jeff Liebermann knows, that AP MAC can not easily be spoofed
> f. So you dutifully set the (already unique) SOHO SSID to append _nomap
> g. You "think" that _nomaop prevents it being "uploaded" to Google/Mozilla
> h. But (almost) every Android phone _still_ uploads your SSID to the net!
> i. WTF? Then you realize, it's on the Google server the _nomap is respected
> j. Worse, you find out that Wigle & NetStumbler maybe don't respect _nomap
> k. Now what? You think. You ponder. You google. You search.
> l. You come up with an idea after testing how Android handles hidden SSIDs
> m. What if you make the SSID _hidden_ (i.e., not broadcast) you ponder?
> n. You search a bit more and you find it that maybe that will work
> o. If you don't broadcast the SSID, then it's NOT uploaded to the net!
> p. At least not for most Android phones that don't have Wigle/Netstumbler
> q. But a hidden SSID opens up another privacy can of worms, doesn't it.
> r. Now you have to set your phone to _look_ for that hidden SSID
> s. That means everywhere you go, your phone _broadcasts_ that hidden SSID
> t. Yikes! So you set your phone to NOT re-connect after losing signal
> u. While you're at it, you set Android 10+ to a random MAC per SSID
> v. On Android 11+ Developer options, you set a random MAC per connection
> w. So now, when the connection drops, it doesn't ask to reconnect at home
> x. But the benefit is it doesn't broadcast your unique SSID outside home
> y. You could have accomplished that task with an automated home geofence
> z. But that would necessitate location - which is another can of worms!
>
> Jeff... I ran out of letters, so I'll stop there... but it goes on,
> which is your point and which is mine where, I can't help but logically
> and rationally reasonably agree with you that it's hard to protect
> against what we don't know about...

Indeed. This is the Android equivalent of Rumsfeld's "unknown unknowns"!

> But at least we can protect against what we _do_ know about.

We can try, but, with a moving target we can't always be sure we'll
succeed. What is successful today might not work tomorrow.

>> More to the point is when it's not obvious what Google is
>> doing in the background. And, to be fair, it's not only Google.
>
> Oh indeed!
> Take the case of turning on location (which comes after "z" above)!
>
> How many people know that when Google Maps turns on "location" it uses its
> own Google-specific activity which is different from the "normal" location.
> Action = ACTION.MAIN (android.intent.action.MAIN)
> Package Name = com.google.android.gms
> Class Name = com.google.android.gms.location.settings.LocationAccuracyActivity
> Category = CATEGORY.LAUNCHER (android.intent.category.LAUNCHER)
>
> Every other method to turn on location does _not_ use that - they use this:
> ACTION: "android.intent.action.MAIN"
> PACKAGE: "com.android.settings"
> CLASS: "com.android.settings.Settings$ScanningSettingsActivity"
>
> They do different things!
> Pop Quiz!
>
> Guess which one turns on lots more privacy losing stuff, Jeff!
> C'mon. Guess!
>
> C:\> adb shell am start -n com.google.android.gms/.location.settings.LocationAccuracyActivity
>
>> I have a
>> Huawei phone which, like many manufacturers, runs a modified version of
>> Android (particularly so with Chinese phones after their disagreement
>> with Google). So what is /that/ version doing in the background? It
>> might be different from what Google Android is doing. Let's not forget
>> that the hardware is supplied by Huawei too; any "backdoors" in those
>> chips? And then, of course, you have the cellphone signal provider.
>> Everything goes through them, so if it's unencrypted...
>
> Yup. We need debugging information.
> We can use adb for "some" of that, but the problem I have with adb is that
> I don't understand yet how best to cull the output into something usable.
>
> C:\> adb shell am start -n com.google.android.gms/.gcm.GcmDiagnostics
> (take a look at the mtalk.google.com traffic, for example)
>
>> As it's possible to have more than one Google account associated with a
>> single cellphone, perhaps jumping between accounts when using the phone
>> might cause some confusion at Google HQ (although I'm sure they can work
>> their way round that).
>
> Hmmmmm...... I never thought of having even one account, let alone multiple
> accounts, but I prefer no account on the phone (or on the Windows PC).
>
> What I'd love to know is what other privacy measures I can take on either.
> Any suggestions?

I guess the only thing is to assume that someone - and you know who that
someone is - is *always* listening, and act accordingly.

--

Jeff

Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?

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From: spam@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,alt.privacy,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2022 02:20:20 +0000
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Wed, 9 Nov 2022 02:20 UTC

Jeff Layman wrote:

>> it's hard to protect against what we don't know about...
>
> Indeed. This is the Android equivalent of Rumsfeld's "unknown unknowns"!

Hi Jeff,
For my analogy below, it may be important to note that one of my degrees is
in the life sciences, so I know we're being "attacked" by microbes.

My analogy is that privacy is no different, strategically, than hygiene.

At any one time you might not know exactly which microbes are attacking
you, but if you practice personal hygiene, you'll keep most of them at bay.

>> But at least we can protect against what we _do_ know about.
>
> We can try, but, with a moving target we can't always be sure we'll
> succeed. What is successful today might not work tomorrow.

As with microbes attacking us from all sides, we pretty much know their
modus operandi, so while we can't protect against every individual attack,
if we practice personal hygiene, we can protect in general from most.

However, privacy, like hygiene, is a never-ending set of habits.

>> What I'd love to know is what other privacy measures I can take on either.
>> Any suggestions?
>
> I guess the only thing is to assume that someone - and you know who that
> someone is - is *always* listening, and act accordingly.

We agree that privacy is akin to personal hygiene habits.
You can assume you're being attacked and hence you keep clean accordingly.

To that end, if others on this newsgroup can add to our privacy practices,
that would be of benefit to all since together we know more than alone.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information
which, in this case, is to discuss the strategy of basic personal privacy.

Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?

<tkfi89$kc8i$1@solani.org>

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From: hugybear@gmx.ch (Joerg Lorenz)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,alt.privacy,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy
purposes?
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2022 07:44:25 +0100
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 by: Joerg Lorenz - Wed, 9 Nov 2022 06:44 UTC

Am 08.11.22 um 22:50 schrieb Jeff Layman:
> On 07/11/2022 15:38, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>> But at least we can protect against what we _do_ know about.
>
> We can try, but, with a moving target we can't always be sure we'll
> succeed. What is successful today might not work tomorrow.

No reason to simply surrender.

>> What I'd love to know is what other privacy measures I can take on either.
>> Any suggestions?
>
> I guess the only thing is to assume that someone - and you know who that
> someone is - is *always* listening, and act accordingly.

We have reached dictatorship.

--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?

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From: Jeff@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,alt.privacy,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy
purposes?
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2022 08:22:52 +0000
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 by: Jeff Layman - Wed, 9 Nov 2022 08:22 UTC

On 09/11/2022 06:44, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

> We have reached dictatorship.

Sort of. It reminds me of the film "Rollerball":
"In a futuristic society where corporations have replaced countries, the
violent game of Rollerball is used to control the populace by
demonstrating the futility of individuality."

Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter, Tik Tok, etc, etc, etc...

--

Jeff

Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?

<tkgeo5$143u$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spam@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,alt.privacy,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2022 14:50:56 +0000
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Wed, 9 Nov 2022 14:50 UTC

Jeff Layman wrote:

> demonstrating the futility of individuality

I think that's the wrong lesson for the masses in terms of privacy.

There is only futility when people _stop_ fighting for their privacy.
It's the same as with any other basic principle inherent in human life.

*Privacy is no different in principle, than personal hygiene*

People who abrogate their personal hygiene habits are, in general,
disgusting people (e.g., they upload _your_ contact information).

Notice my point is people who give up on privacy are disgusting people not
because they give up on their privacy - but they invaded _your_ privacy.

Those disgusting people are uploading _your_ kids' contact information to
Internet servers, and those disgusting people are uploading _your_ personal
SSN (aka, MAC) to Internet servers, and those disgusting people are ...

My opinion?

People who abrogate on privacy are as disgusting to humanity as people who
give up on personal hygiene habits (for exactly the same reasons on both).

Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?

<tkgfeb$1flp$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spam@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,alt.privacy,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2022 15:02:46 +0000
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Wed, 9 Nov 2022 15:02 UTC

Carlos E.R. wrote:

> :-)

Privacy is no different than personal hygiene... where not sticking your
hands in dirt is no different than not logging into mothership accounts.

In response to Carlos, I've finally added the trolls to my (rather complex)
scripts which comprise what most of you would call a newsreader to add
Joerg Lorenz, among many others so that I don't see what Carlos was
responding to from that moron.

However, I do wish to further flesh out the important topic by requesting
advice from the intelligent few on this newsgroup who have something of
value to offer in terms of how to obtain privacy from the motherships.

Since people who abrogate on privacy are no less disgusting to the rest of
us than people who abrogate on personal hygiene, it behooves us to know
what the basic steps each of the intelligent people here do for privacy.

One of the basic steps I do, and which I recommend others do, is related to
avoiding, unless absolutely required, any mothership tracking account.

1. Never set a computer to a mothership tracking account
2. Never log into apps which _create_ that mothership tracking account
3. Avoid apps which _require_ a mothership tracking account

Note that with iOS this kind of privacy is almost impossible so we're only
talking Android here when we're discussing our mobile device privacy.

In terms of mothership tracking accounts, other than email servers, can you
think of any reason to have an app that must have a mothership account?

I can't.
Can you? (this is the collective "you" of the intelligentsia out there)
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information
which, in this case, is to ponder why people log into mothership accounts.

Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?

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From: robin_listas@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,alt.privacy,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy
purposes?
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2022 18:44:22 +0100
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In-Reply-To: <tkgfeb$1flp$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Carlos E.R. - Wed, 9 Nov 2022 17:44 UTC

On 2022-11-09 16:02, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>> :-)
>
> Privacy is no different than personal hygiene... where not sticking your
> hands in dirt is no different than not logging into mothership accounts.

The first thing to do if one cares much about privacy, is not use an
Android phone (nor an Apple phone).

Anything else you do, is fooling yourself.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?

<tkh0n3$g3e$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spam@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,alt.privacy,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: What steps do you perform on your phone expressly for privacy purposes?
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2022 19:57:34 +0000
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Wed, 9 Nov 2022 19:57 UTC

Carlos E.R. wrote:

> The first thing to do if one cares much about privacy, is not use an
> Android phone (nor an Apple phone).
>
> Anything else you do, is fooling yourself.

You're welcome to give up on your privacy just as you give up on your
education and just as you give up on your freedom and just as you give up
on personal hygiene - all of which you give up because it's easier for you.

But it turns out freedom isn't easy - you have to fight for it - just as
you fight for privacy and you continually strive for education and just as
continually, you wash your hands and brush your teeth for personal hygiene.

Privacy is no different than freedom, education, or personal hygiene.
People who give up (because it's easy) are disgusting to the rest of us.

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