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devel / comp.protocols.time.ntp / Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

SubjectAuthor
* gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
+* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|+* Re: gpsd no PPS outputWilliam Unruh
||`* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|| `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputWilliam Unruh
||  `- Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|`* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
| `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|  +* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|  |`- Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|  +* Re: gpsd no PPS outputWilliam Unruh
|  |+- Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|  |`- Re: gpsd no PPS outputDavid Woolley
|  `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|   +* Re: gpsd no PPS outputWilliam Unruh
|   |`* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|   | `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|   |  +* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|   |  |`- Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|   |  `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|   |   `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputWilliam Unruh
|   |    `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|   |     `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|   |      `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|   |       `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|   |        `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|   |         `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|   |          `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|   |           `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputWilliam Unruh
|   |            `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|   |             `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputWilliam Unruh
|   |              `- Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|   `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|    +* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|    |`* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|    | `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|    |  `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|    |   `- Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|    `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputDavid Woolley
|     `- Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
+* Re: gpsd no PPS outputMiroslav Lichvar
|`* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
| `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputMiroslav Lichvar
|  `- Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
 +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedWilliam Unruh
 |`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
 | `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedWilliam Unruh
 |  `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
 |   +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedWilliam Unruh
 |   |`- Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
 |   `- Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
 `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedMiroslav Lichvar
  +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
  |`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
  | `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
  |  `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
  |   `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedWilliam Unruh
  |    `- Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
  `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
   `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedDavid Taylor
    +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedTerje Mathisen
    |`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
    | |+* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedDavid Woolley
    | ||+* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | |||`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedDavid Woolley
    | ||| `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | |||  +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedWilliam Unruh
    | |||  |`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | |||  | `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedWilliam Unruh
    | |||  |  `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | |||  |   +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedWilliam Unruh
    | |||  |   |`- Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | |||  |   `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
    | |||  |    `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | |||  |     `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedDavid Woolley
    | |||  |      `- Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | |||  `- Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedDavid Woolley
    | ||`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
    | || +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedWilliam Unruh
    | || |`- Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
    | || +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | || |+* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedDavid Woolley
    | || ||`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | || || `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
    | || ||  +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | || ||  |`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
    | || ||  | `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | || ||  |  +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
    | || ||  |  |`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | || ||  |  | `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
    | || ||  |  |  `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | || ||  |  |   +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
    | || ||  |  |   |+* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
    | || ||  |  |   ||`- Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | || ||  |  |   |`- Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | || ||  |  |   `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedTerje Mathisen
    | || ||  |  |    `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | || ||  |  |     `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedTerje Mathisen
    | || ||  |  |      +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | || ||  |  |      `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedDavid Woolley
    | || ||  |  `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedDavid Woolley
    | || ||  `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedTerje Mathisen
    | || |`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedTerje Mathisen
    | || `- Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedDavid Woolley
    | |`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedTerje Mathisen
    `- Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino

Pages:1234567
Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<sebma8$1dfs$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=188&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#188

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!jazQyxryRFiI4FEZ51SAvA.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: chris-nospam@tridac.net (chris)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 16:11:04 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <sebma8$1dfs$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <pqe8th-hsf.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net> <8j2gth-nm22.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net> <se8h2q$691$1@gioia.aioe.org> <1u6lth-9ls1.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net> <se902j$292$1@dont-email.me> <se911q$1nfb$1@gioia.aioe.org> <s6glth-b082.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net> <se96b5$j8d$1@gioia.aioe.org> <3enlth-cmd2.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net> <se9d9k$vjj$2@dont-email.me> <8hslth-frh2.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net> <seasjd$sno$1@gioia.aioe.org> <j20oth-gh04.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>
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 by: chris - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 15:11 UTC

On 08/03/21 15:22, Jim Pennino wrote:

>
> The cheapest, current, commercial GPS with a serial connector and PPS
> that I can find is over $100.

Then you are not looking very hard. Bare board gps modules,
with pps and serial are on Ebay in droves at around the
< $10 upwards. Of course, if you are not happy doing a bit
of simple soldering and interfacing, then you are at the
mercy of those that can...

Usb is the last thing anyone would use if accuracy is the goal.

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<sebmii$1hgr$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=189&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#189

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From: chris-nospam@tridac.net (chris)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 16:15:30 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <sebmii$1hgr$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <pqe8th-hsf.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net> <8j2gth-nm22.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net> <se8h2q$691$1@gioia.aioe.org> <1u6lth-9ls1.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net> <se902j$292$1@dont-email.me> <se911q$1nfb$1@gioia.aioe.org> <s6glth-b082.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net> <se96b5$j8d$1@gioia.aioe.org> <se98l2$1g8$1@dont-email.me> <se9rdn$1i9$1@gioia.aioe.org> <j7cmth-1vs2.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net> <seb5hg$28e$1@dont-email.me> <ukvnth-gh04.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>
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 by: chris - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 15:15 UTC

On 08/03/21 15:15, Jim Pennino wrote:
> David Woolley<david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
>> On 03/08/2021 00:37, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>> PPS has no information. The purpose of PPS is to provide a reference
>>> that is as close to 1 Hz, i.e. an elapsed time of 1 second, as possible.
>>>
>>
>> PPS provides information on where within the cycle the true UTC second
>> transition most probably lies. You pretty much acknowledge that later
>> in your description.
>
> Nope.
>
> In fact if one were to build a highly stable oscillator totally
> independent of GPS, it would still work as a PPS signal.
>
> If you think otherwise, please provide the GPS specification.
>

It may generate a pps signal if divided down, but it would not
be synchronised to UTC or anything else. Only a gps 1 pps
can provide that signal, or another clock locked to UTC.

I should stop digging mate, ever more ridiculous...

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<9t3oth-e084.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=190&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#190

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 08:28:11 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jim Pennino - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 15:28 UTC

chris <chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
> On 08/03/21 15:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
>
>>
>> The cheapest, current, commercial GPS with a serial connector and PPS
>> that I can find is over $100.
>
>
> Then you are not looking very hard. Bare board gps modules,
> with pps and serial are on Ebay in droves at around the
> < $10 upwards. Of course, if you are not happy doing a bit
> of simple soldering and interfacing, then you are at the
> mercy of those that can...

What part of the words "commercial" and "serial connector" is it that
you did not understand?

FYI I have been soldering since about 1963.

> Usb is the last thing anyone would use if accuracy is the goal.

That depends on the accuracy required.

As I said, there are thousands of people who have no serial or parallel
port that have a required accuracy of about 100 milliseconds.

For them, USB would be the FIRST thing they would use as it is the
cheapest and simplest solution and easily meets the requirement.

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<ci3oth-e084.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=191&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#191

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 08:22:22 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jim Pennino - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 15:22 UTC

chris <chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
> On 08/03/21 15:15, Jim Pennino wrote:
>> David Woolley<david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 03/08/2021 00:37, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>> PPS has no information. The purpose of PPS is to provide a reference
>>>> that is as close to 1 Hz, i.e. an elapsed time of 1 second, as possible.
>>>>
>>>
>>> PPS provides information on where within the cycle the true UTC second
>>> transition most probably lies. You pretty much acknowledge that later
>>> in your description.
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>> In fact if one were to build a highly stable oscillator totally
>> independent of GPS, it would still work as a PPS signal.
>>
>> If you think otherwise, please provide the GPS specification.
>>
>
> It may generate a pps signal if divided down, but it would not
> be synchronised to UTC or anything else. Only a gps 1 pps
> can provide that signal, or another clock locked to UTC.
>
> I should stop digging mate, ever more ridiculous...

Please provide the GPS specification that defines the PPS sync to UTC.

If you can not, you are just pulling this from your butt.

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<sebond$k96$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=193&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#193

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From: chris-nospam@tridac.net (chris)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 16:52:13 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <sebond$k96$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 by: chris - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 15:52 UTC

On 08/03/21 16:28, Jim Pennino wrote:
> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>> On 08/03/21 15:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The cheapest, current, commercial GPS with a serial connector and PPS
>>> that I can find is over $100.
>>
>>
>> Then you are not looking very hard. Bare board gps modules,
>> with pps and serial are on Ebay in droves at around the
>> < $10 upwards. Of course, if you are not happy doing a bit
>> of simple soldering and interfacing, then you are at the
>> mercy of those that can...
>
> What part of the words "commercial" and "serial connector" is it that
> you did not understand?
>
> FYI I have been soldering since about 1963.

Then you should have no problem taking a $10- gps module, soldering a
few wires to it and a 9 pin D and you are good to go.

>
>> Usb is the last thing anyone would use if accuracy is the goal.
>
> That depends on the accuracy required.
>
> As I said, there are thousands of people who have no serial or parallel
> port that have a required accuracy of about 100 milliseconds.

They do ?, who are these thousands of people ?...

>
> For them, USB would be the FIRST thing they would use as it is the
> cheapest and simplest solution and easily meets the requirement.
>

>

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<sebpnm$13ro$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=195&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#195

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From: chris-nospam@tridac.net (chris)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 17:09:26 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <sebpnm$13ro$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 by: chris - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 16:09 UTC

On 08/03/21 16:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>> On 08/03/21 15:15, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>> David Woolley<david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 03/08/2021 00:37, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>> PPS has no information. The purpose of PPS is to provide a reference
>>>>> that is as close to 1 Hz, i.e. an elapsed time of 1 second, as possible.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> PPS provides information on where within the cycle the true UTC second
>>>> transition most probably lies. You pretty much acknowledge that later
>>>> in your description.
>>>
>>> Nope.
>>>
>>> In fact if one were to build a highly stable oscillator totally
>>> independent of GPS, it would still work as a PPS signal.
>>>
>>> If you think otherwise, please provide the GPS specification.
>>>
>>
>> It may generate a pps signal if divided down, but it would not
>> be synchronised to UTC or anything else. Only a gps 1 pps
>> can provide that signal, or another clock locked to UTC.
>>
>> I should stop digging mate, ever more ridiculous...
>
> Please provide the GPS specification that defines the PPS sync to UTC.

Typical gps modules will claim a few 10's of ns offset limits
for local pps in relation to UTC, which is the final arbiter.
GPS have clocks traceable to national standards and UTC. They
are the primary reference, to which any local clocks or
oscillators, vcxo or rb, etc will be locked in sync with.

If you need any more info, download the data sheet for a
typical sub $10 gps module, which should have all the info
you need...

>
> If you can not, you are just pulling this from your butt.
>
>

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<or6oth-laa4.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=197&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#197

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 09:18:34 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jim Pennino - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 16:18 UTC

chris <chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
> On 08/03/21 16:28, Jim Pennino wrote:
>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>> On 08/03/21 15:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The cheapest, current, commercial GPS with a serial connector and PPS
>>>> that I can find is over $100.
>>>
>>>
>>> Then you are not looking very hard. Bare board gps modules,
>>> with pps and serial are on Ebay in droves at around the
>>> < $10 upwards. Of course, if you are not happy doing a bit
>>> of simple soldering and interfacing, then you are at the
>>> mercy of those that can...
>>
>> What part of the words "commercial" and "serial connector" is it that
>> you did not understand?
>>
>> FYI I have been soldering since about 1963.
>
> Then you should have no problem taking a $10- gps module, soldering a
> few wires to it and a 9 pin D and you are good to go.

There are no $10 modules with RS-232 outputs.

Do you understand the difference between serial output and RS-232?

>>> Usb is the last thing anyone would use if accuracy is the goal.
>>
>> That depends on the accuracy required.
>>
>> As I said, there are thousands of people who have no serial or parallel
>> port that have a required accuracy of about 100 milliseconds.
>
> They do ?, who are these thousands of people ?...

Probably the biggest group is amateur radio operators running any of the
modern modes such as FST4, FST4W, FT4, FT8, JT4, JT9, JT65, Q65, MSK144,
and WSPR, which is the majority of the about 3 million world wide.

They also have the issue of operating from a remote location with no
internet or cell access.

This is typically done with a Windows laptop that has no device I/O other
than USB.

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<mo7oth-0ra4.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=199&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#199

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 09:34:00 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 16:34 UTC

chris <chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
> On 08/03/21 16:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>> On 08/03/21 15:15, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>> David Woolley<david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On 03/08/2021 00:37, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>> PPS has no information. The purpose of PPS is to provide a reference
>>>>>> that is as close to 1 Hz, i.e. an elapsed time of 1 second, as possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> PPS provides information on where within the cycle the true UTC second
>>>>> transition most probably lies. You pretty much acknowledge that later
>>>>> in your description.
>>>>
>>>> Nope.
>>>>
>>>> In fact if one were to build a highly stable oscillator totally
>>>> independent of GPS, it would still work as a PPS signal.
>>>>
>>>> If you think otherwise, please provide the GPS specification.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It may generate a pps signal if divided down, but it would not
>>> be synchronised to UTC or anything else. Only a gps 1 pps
>>> can provide that signal, or another clock locked to UTC.
>>>
>>> I should stop digging mate, ever more ridiculous...
>>
>> Please provide the GPS specification that defines the PPS sync to UTC.
>
> Typical gps modules will claim a few 10's of ns offset limits
> for local pps in relation to UTC, which is the final arbiter.
> GPS have clocks traceable to national standards and UTC. They
> are the primary reference, to which any local clocks or
> oscillators, vcxo or rb, etc will be locked in sync with.
>
> If you need any more info, download the data sheet for a
> typical sub $10 gps module, which should have all the info
> you need...

I did not ask for spec sheets for GPS modules.

Please provide the GPS specification that defines the PPS sync to UTC.

You claim PPS is synced to UTC.

Prove it.

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<sebsd7$cod$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: chris-nospam@tridac.net (chris)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 17:55:03 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: chris - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 16:55 UTC

On 08/03/21 17:18, Jim Pennino wrote:
> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>> On 08/03/21 16:28, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>> On 08/03/21 15:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The cheapest, current, commercial GPS with a serial connector and PPS
>>>>> that I can find is over $100.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then you are not looking very hard. Bare board gps modules,
>>>> with pps and serial are on Ebay in droves at around the
>>>> < $10 upwards. Of course, if you are not happy doing a bit
>>>> of simple soldering and interfacing, then you are at the
>>>> mercy of those that can...
>>>
>>> What part of the words "commercial" and "serial connector" is it that
>>> you did not understand?
>>>
>>> FYI I have been soldering since about 1963.
>>
>> Then you should have no problem taking a $10- gps module, soldering a
>> few wires to it and a 9 pin D and you are good to go.
>
> There are no $10 modules with RS-232 outputs.
>
> Do you understand the difference between serial output and RS-232?

We already had that discussion, where you seemed unaware of the
need or not for level conversion. Sure, the gps module will have
serial output and pps at ttl levels. 2400 or 4800 baud ascii
format being typical.

>
>>>> Usb is the last thing anyone would use if accuracy is the goal.
>>>
>>> That depends on the accuracy required.
>>>
>>> As I said, there are thousands of people who have no serial or parallel
>>> port that have a required accuracy of about 100 milliseconds.
>>
>> They do ?, who are these thousands of people ?...
>
> Probably the biggest group is amateur radio operators running any of the
> modern modes such as FST4, FST4W, FT4, FT8, JT4, JT9, JT65, Q65, MSK144,
> and WSPR, which is the majority of the about 3 million world wide.
>
> They also have the issue of operating from a remote location with no
> internet or cell access.
>
> This is typically done with a Windows laptop that has no device I/O other
> than USB.

Fair comment, but I would try to find a more accurate solution than
using a usb interface. Bluetooth gps engines are quite popular now
fwics, and not expensive either...

>
>

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<sebt8i$p6q$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=202&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#202

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From: chris-nospam@tridac.net (chris)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 18:09:37 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: chris - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 17:09 UTC

On 08/03/21 17:34, Jim Pennino wrote:
> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>> On 08/03/21 16:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>> On 08/03/21 15:15, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>> David Woolley<david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> On 03/08/2021 00:37, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>>> PPS has no information. The purpose of PPS is to provide a reference
>>>>>>> that is as close to 1 Hz, i.e. an elapsed time of 1 second, as possible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PPS provides information on where within the cycle the true UTC second
>>>>>> transition most probably lies. You pretty much acknowledge that later
>>>>>> in your description.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact if one were to build a highly stable oscillator totally
>>>>> independent of GPS, it would still work as a PPS signal.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you think otherwise, please provide the GPS specification.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It may generate a pps signal if divided down, but it would not
>>>> be synchronised to UTC or anything else. Only a gps 1 pps
>>>> can provide that signal, or another clock locked to UTC.
>>>>
>>>> I should stop digging mate, ever more ridiculous...
>>>
>>> Please provide the GPS specification that defines the PPS sync to UTC.
>>
>> Typical gps modules will claim a few 10's of ns offset limits
>> for local pps in relation to UTC, which is the final arbiter.
>> GPS have clocks traceable to national standards and UTC. They
>> are the primary reference, to which any local clocks or
>> oscillators, vcxo or rb, etc will be locked in sync with.
>>
>> If you need any more info, download the data sheet for a
>> typical sub $10 gps module, which should have all the info
>> you need...
>
> I did not ask for spec sheets for GPS modules.
>
> Please provide the GPS specification that defines the PPS sync to UTC.
>
> You claim PPS is synced to UTC.
>
> Prove it.
>

Millions of people depend on it every day, so we know it works. PPS
sync is directly traceable to the satellite master clocks and thence
to utc maintenance at the national standards labs worldwide. Yes Jim,
it's major worldwide collaboration, with everything from GSM mobile,
broadcasting, industry,. medicine and more depending on it. ...and you
have doubts ?.

Not a specialist in the subject, so you'll have to do your own
homework on that one. It's all in the public domain as well, so no
excuses, right :-)...

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<4jaoth-ped4.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=204&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#204

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 10:22:14 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 17:22 UTC

chris <chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
> On 08/03/21 17:34, Jim Pennino wrote:
>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>> On 08/03/21 16:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 08/03/21 15:15, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>> David Woolley<david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 03/08/2021 00:37, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>>>> PPS has no information. The purpose of PPS is to provide a reference
>>>>>>>> that is as close to 1 Hz, i.e. an elapsed time of 1 second, as possible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PPS provides information on where within the cycle the true UTC second
>>>>>>> transition most probably lies. You pretty much acknowledge that later
>>>>>>> in your description.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In fact if one were to build a highly stable oscillator totally
>>>>>> independent of GPS, it would still work as a PPS signal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you think otherwise, please provide the GPS specification.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It may generate a pps signal if divided down, but it would not
>>>>> be synchronised to UTC or anything else. Only a gps 1 pps
>>>>> can provide that signal, or another clock locked to UTC.
>>>>>
>>>>> I should stop digging mate, ever more ridiculous...
>>>>
>>>> Please provide the GPS specification that defines the PPS sync to UTC.
>>>
>>> Typical gps modules will claim a few 10's of ns offset limits
>>> for local pps in relation to UTC, which is the final arbiter.
>>> GPS have clocks traceable to national standards and UTC. They
>>> are the primary reference, to which any local clocks or
>>> oscillators, vcxo or rb, etc will be locked in sync with.
>>>
>>> If you need any more info, download the data sheet for a
>>> typical sub $10 gps module, which should have all the info
>>> you need...
>>
>> I did not ask for spec sheets for GPS modules.
>>
>> Please provide the GPS specification that defines the PPS sync to UTC.
>>
>> You claim PPS is synced to UTC.
>>
>> Prove it.
>>
>
> Millions of people depend on it every day, so we know it works. PPS
> sync is directly traceable to the satellite master clocks and thence
> to utc maintenance at the national standards labs worldwide. Yes Jim,
> it's major worldwide collaboration, with everything from GSM mobile,
> broadcasting, industry,. medicine and more depending on it. ...and you
> have doubts ?.

You claim the PPS pulse is synced to UTC.

I say it is not.

Prove your statement with a link to a GPS specification, not arm waving.

> Not a specialist in the subject,

To say the least...

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<sebutp$58v$1@dont-email.me>

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From: david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid (David Woolley)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 18:38:01 +0100
Organization: No affiliation
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 by: David Woolley - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 17:38 UTC

On 03/08/2021 17:34, Jim Pennino wrote:
> Please provide the GPS specification that defines the PPS sync to UTC.
>

I can't think of any good reason why the GPS specification should even
mention PPS.

Although there may be specialist equipment that only provides a 1Hz
frequency standard (although I'd think 10MHz more likely), I think we
would have seen lots of people reporting problems if real world PPS
outputs weren't aligned with GPS seconds.

As for a typical product specification, the Garmin 18x LVC series has
this specification:

"The highly accurate one-pulse-per-second (PPS) output is provided for
applications requiring precise timing measurements. After the initial
position fix has been calculated, the PPS signal is generated and
continues until the unit is powered down. The rising edge of the signal
is aligned to the start of each GPS second within 1 μs for all
conditions in which the receiver has reported a valid and accurate
position for at least the previous 4 seconds."

<https://static.garmin.com/pumac/GPS_18x_Tech_Specs.pdf>

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=206&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#206

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From: chris-nospam@tridac.net (chris)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 18:41:25 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: chris - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 17:41 UTC

On 08/03/21 18:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>> On 08/03/21 17:34, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>> On 08/03/21 16:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 08/03/21 15:15, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>>> David Woolley<david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 03/08/2021 00:37, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>>>>> PPS has no information. The purpose of PPS is to provide a reference
>>>>>>>>> that is as close to 1 Hz, i.e. an elapsed time of 1 second, as possible.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> PPS provides information on where within the cycle the true UTC second
>>>>>>>> transition most probably lies. You pretty much acknowledge that later
>>>>>>>> in your description.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In fact if one were to build a highly stable oscillator totally
>>>>>>> independent of GPS, it would still work as a PPS signal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you think otherwise, please provide the GPS specification.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It may generate a pps signal if divided down, but it would not
>>>>>> be synchronised to UTC or anything else. Only a gps 1 pps
>>>>>> can provide that signal, or another clock locked to UTC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I should stop digging mate, ever more ridiculous...
>>>>>
>>>>> Please provide the GPS specification that defines the PPS sync to UTC.
>>>>
>>>> Typical gps modules will claim a few 10's of ns offset limits
>>>> for local pps in relation to UTC, which is the final arbiter.
>>>> GPS have clocks traceable to national standards and UTC. They
>>>> are the primary reference, to which any local clocks or
>>>> oscillators, vcxo or rb, etc will be locked in sync with.
>>>>
>>>> If you need any more info, download the data sheet for a
>>>> typical sub $10 gps module, which should have all the info
>>>> you need...
>>>
>>> I did not ask for spec sheets for GPS modules.
>>>
>>> Please provide the GPS specification that defines the PPS sync to UTC.
>>>
>>> You claim PPS is synced to UTC.
>>>
>>> Prove it.
>>>
>>
>> Millions of people depend on it every day, so we know it works. PPS
>> sync is directly traceable to the satellite master clocks and thence
>> to utc maintenance at the national standards labs worldwide. Yes Jim,
>> it's major worldwide collaboration, with everything from GSM mobile,
>> broadcasting, industry,. medicine and more depending on it. ...and you
>> have doubts ?.
>
> You claim the PPS pulse is synced to UTC.
>
> I say it is not.
>
> Prove your statement with a link to a GPS specification, not arm waving.
>
>> Not a specialist in the subject,
>
> To say the least...
>
>

You really are beyond help, but how do you think gsm cell handover, or
high frequency stock trading works ?. Are you even curious about how
things like that work and make some effort to find out ?.

The thing about gps time and pps is that you can have a gps rx in London
and one on NY and both pps will be in sync to within 10's
of nS typically. How amazing is that ?. nS accuracy just about
anywhere on the planet where you can see satellites.

Do your own homework and stop being so lazy :-)...

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<4aboth-ped4.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=207&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#207

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 10:34:30 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 17:34 UTC

chris <chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
> On 08/03/21 17:18, Jim Pennino wrote:
>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>> On 08/03/21 16:28, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 08/03/21 15:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The cheapest, current, commercial GPS with a serial connector and PPS
>>>>>> that I can find is over $100.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then you are not looking very hard. Bare board gps modules,
>>>>> with pps and serial are on Ebay in droves at around the
>>>>> < $10 upwards. Of course, if you are not happy doing a bit
>>>>> of simple soldering and interfacing, then you are at the
>>>>> mercy of those that can...
>>>>
>>>> What part of the words "commercial" and "serial connector" is it that
>>>> you did not understand?
>>>>
>>>> FYI I have been soldering since about 1963.
>>>
>>> Then you should have no problem taking a $10- gps module, soldering a
>>> few wires to it and a 9 pin D and you are good to go.
>>
>> There are no $10 modules with RS-232 outputs.
>>
>> Do you understand the difference between serial output and RS-232?
>
> We already had that discussion, where you seemed unaware of the
> need or not for level conversion. Sure, the gps module will have
> serial output and pps at ttl levels. 2400 or 4800 baud ascii
> format being typical.

Sigh.

I was NEVER unaware of the need or not for level conversion for anything.

Some GPS modules have TTL output, but most have CMOS levels these days.

4800 and 9600 are the most common bauds.

GNSS modules are all at least 9600 because a GNSS receiver has more NMEA
sentences and they will not fit into one second window at 4800 baud.

>>
>>>>> Usb is the last thing anyone would use if accuracy is the goal.
>>>>
>>>> That depends on the accuracy required.
>>>>
>>>> As I said, there are thousands of people who have no serial or parallel
>>>> port that have a required accuracy of about 100 milliseconds.
>>>
>>> They do ?, who are these thousands of people ?...
>>
>> Probably the biggest group is amateur radio operators running any of the
>> modern modes such as FST4, FST4W, FT4, FT8, JT4, JT9, JT65, Q65, MSK144,
>> and WSPR, which is the majority of the about 3 million world wide.
>>
>> They also have the issue of operating from a remote location with no
>> internet or cell access.
>>
>> This is typically done with a Windows laptop that has no device I/O other
>> than USB.
>
> Fair comment, but I would try to find a more accurate solution than
> using a usb interface. Bluetooth gps engines are quite popular now
> fwics, and not expensive either...

Sigh.

Bluetooth has no quality that would make it more accurate than USB for
timekeeping applications.

COMMERCIAL bluetooth GPS receivers are more expensive than USB.

Why do you continually babble about DIY projects when I have repeatedly
said I have no interest in them?

Why would you "try to find a more accurate solution" when the solution
offered is two orders of magnitude better than the requirement?

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<sec07l$6bc$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=209&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#209

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From: chris-nospam@tridac.net (chris)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 19:00:21 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: chris - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 18:00 UTC

On 08/03/21 18:34, Jim Pennino wrote:
> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>> On 08/03/21 17:18, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>> On 08/03/21 16:28, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 08/03/21 15:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The cheapest, current, commercial GPS with a serial connector and PPS
>>>>>>> that I can find is over $100.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then you are not looking very hard. Bare board gps modules,
>>>>>> with pps and serial are on Ebay in droves at around the
>>>>>> < $10 upwards. Of course, if you are not happy doing a bit
>>>>>> of simple soldering and interfacing, then you are at the
>>>>>> mercy of those that can...
>>>>>
>>>>> What part of the words "commercial" and "serial connector" is it that
>>>>> you did not understand?
>>>>>
>>>>> FYI I have been soldering since about 1963.
>>>>
>>>> Then you should have no problem taking a $10- gps module, soldering a
>>>> few wires to it and a 9 pin D and you are good to go.
>>>
>>> There are no $10 modules with RS-232 outputs.
>>>
>>> Do you understand the difference between serial output and RS-232?
>>
>> We already had that discussion, where you seemed unaware of the
>> need or not for level conversion. Sure, the gps module will have
>> serial output and pps at ttl levels. 2400 or 4800 baud ascii
>> format being typical.
>
> Sigh.
>
> I was NEVER unaware of the need or not for level conversion for anything.
>
> Some GPS modules have TTL output, but most have CMOS levels these days.
>
> 4800 and 9600 are the most common bauds.
>
> GNSS modules are all at least 9600 because a GNSS receiver has more NMEA
> sentences and they will not fit into one second window at 4800 baud.
>
>>>
>>>>>> Usb is the last thing anyone would use if accuracy is the goal.
>>>>>
>>>>> That depends on the accuracy required.
>>>>>
>>>>> As I said, there are thousands of people who have no serial or parallel
>>>>> port that have a required accuracy of about 100 milliseconds.
>>>>
>>>> They do ?, who are these thousands of people ?...
>>>
>>> Probably the biggest group is amateur radio operators running any of the
>>> modern modes such as FST4, FST4W, FT4, FT8, JT4, JT9, JT65, Q65, MSK144,
>>> and WSPR, which is the majority of the about 3 million world wide.
>>>
>>> They also have the issue of operating from a remote location with no
>>> internet or cell access.
>>>
>>> This is typically done with a Windows laptop that has no device I/O other
>>> than USB.
>>
>> Fair comment, but I would try to find a more accurate solution than
>> using a usb interface. Bluetooth gps engines are quite popular now
>> fwics, and not expensive either...
>
> Sigh.
>
> Bluetooth has no quality that would make it more accurate than USB for
> timekeeping applications.
>
> COMMERCIAL bluetooth GPS receivers are more expensive than USB.
>
> Why do you continually babble about DIY projects when I have repeatedly
> said I have no interest in them?
>
> Why would you "try to find a more accurate solution" when the solution
> offered is two orders of magnitude better than the requirement?
>
>

Which beg the question, why are you here if you already have
all the answers ?. T learn perhaps, as you seem to have no understanding
of the relationship between utc and pps, even to
the point of denying there is one ?...

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<2lcoth-95e4.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 10:57:24 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 17:57 UTC

chris <chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
> On 08/03/21 18:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>> On 08/03/21 17:34, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 08/03/21 16:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 08/03/21 15:15, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>>>> David Woolley<david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 03/08/2021 00:37, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> PPS has no information. The purpose of PPS is to provide a reference
>>>>>>>>>> that is as close to 1 Hz, i.e. an elapsed time of 1 second, as possible.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> PPS provides information on where within the cycle the true UTC second
>>>>>>>>> transition most probably lies. You pretty much acknowledge that later
>>>>>>>>> in your description.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In fact if one were to build a highly stable oscillator totally
>>>>>>>> independent of GPS, it would still work as a PPS signal.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you think otherwise, please provide the GPS specification.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It may generate a pps signal if divided down, but it would not
>>>>>>> be synchronised to UTC or anything else. Only a gps 1 pps
>>>>>>> can provide that signal, or another clock locked to UTC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I should stop digging mate, ever more ridiculous...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please provide the GPS specification that defines the PPS sync to UTC.
>>>>>
>>>>> Typical gps modules will claim a few 10's of ns offset limits
>>>>> for local pps in relation to UTC, which is the final arbiter.
>>>>> GPS have clocks traceable to national standards and UTC. They
>>>>> are the primary reference, to which any local clocks or
>>>>> oscillators, vcxo or rb, etc will be locked in sync with.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you need any more info, download the data sheet for a
>>>>> typical sub $10 gps module, which should have all the info
>>>>> you need...
>>>>
>>>> I did not ask for spec sheets for GPS modules.
>>>>
>>>> Please provide the GPS specification that defines the PPS sync to UTC.
>>>>
>>>> You claim PPS is synced to UTC.
>>>>
>>>> Prove it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Millions of people depend on it every day, so we know it works. PPS
>>> sync is directly traceable to the satellite master clocks and thence
>>> to utc maintenance at the national standards labs worldwide. Yes Jim,
>>> it's major worldwide collaboration, with everything from GSM mobile,
>>> broadcasting, industry,. medicine and more depending on it. ...and you
>>> have doubts ?.
>>
>> You claim the PPS pulse is synced to UTC.
>>
>> I say it is not.
>>
>> Prove your statement with a link to a GPS specification, not arm waving.
>>
>>> Not a specialist in the subject,
>>
>> To say the least...
>>
>>
>
> You really are beyond help, but how do you think gsm cell handover, or
> high frequency stock trading works ?. Are you even curious about how
> things like that work and make some effort to find out ?.
>
> The thing about gps time and pps is that you can have a gps rx in London
> and one on NY and both pps will be in sync to within 10's
> of nS typically. How amazing is that ?. nS accuracy just about
> anywhere on the planet where you can see satellites.
>
> Do your own homework and stop being so lazy :-)...

Yet again, nothing but arm waving.

You have claimed the GPS PPS pulse is synced to UTC.

I say it is not and the GPS PPS pulse is only specified as an interval.

Prove your statement with a link to a GPS specification, not arm waving.

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<sec0na$d5r$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=211&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#211

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From: chris-nospam@tridac.net (chris)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 19:08:42 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <sec0na$d5r$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 by: chris - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 18:08 UTC

On 08/03/21 18:57, Jim Pennino wrote:
> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>> On 08/03/21 18:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>> On 08/03/21 17:34, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 08/03/21 16:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 08/03/21 15:15, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>>>>> David Woolley<david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 03/08/2021 00:37, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> PPS has no information. The purpose of PPS is to provide a reference
>>>>>>>>>>> that is as close to 1 Hz, i.e. an elapsed time of 1 second, as possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> PPS provides information on where within the cycle the true UTC second
>>>>>>>>>> transition most probably lies. You pretty much acknowledge that later
>>>>>>>>>> in your description.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In fact if one were to build a highly stable oscillator totally
>>>>>>>>> independent of GPS, it would still work as a PPS signal.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you think otherwise, please provide the GPS specification.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It may generate a pps signal if divided down, but it would not
>>>>>>>> be synchronised to UTC or anything else. Only a gps 1 pps
>>>>>>>> can provide that signal, or another clock locked to UTC.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I should stop digging mate, ever more ridiculous...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please provide the GPS specification that defines the PPS sync to UTC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Typical gps modules will claim a few 10's of ns offset limits
>>>>>> for local pps in relation to UTC, which is the final arbiter.
>>>>>> GPS have clocks traceable to national standards and UTC. They
>>>>>> are the primary reference, to which any local clocks or
>>>>>> oscillators, vcxo or rb, etc will be locked in sync with.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you need any more info, download the data sheet for a
>>>>>> typical sub $10 gps module, which should have all the info
>>>>>> you need...
>>>>>
>>>>> I did not ask for spec sheets for GPS modules.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please provide the GPS specification that defines the PPS sync to UTC.
>>>>>
>>>>> You claim PPS is synced to UTC.
>>>>>
>>>>> Prove it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Millions of people depend on it every day, so we know it works. PPS
>>>> sync is directly traceable to the satellite master clocks and thence
>>>> to utc maintenance at the national standards labs worldwide. Yes Jim,
>>>> it's major worldwide collaboration, with everything from GSM mobile,
>>>> broadcasting, industry,. medicine and more depending on it. ...and you
>>>> have doubts ?.
>>>
>>> You claim the PPS pulse is synced to UTC.
>>>
>>> I say it is not.
>>>
>>> Prove your statement with a link to a GPS specification, not arm waving.
>>>
>>>> Not a specialist in the subject,
>>>
>>> To say the least...
>>>
>>>
>>
>> You really are beyond help, but how do you think gsm cell handover, or
>> high frequency stock trading works ?. Are you even curious about how
>> things like that work and make some effort to find out ?.
>>
>> The thing about gps time and pps is that you can have a gps rx in London
>> and one on NY and both pps will be in sync to within 10's
>> of nS typically. How amazing is that ?. nS accuracy just about
>> anywhere on the planet where you can see satellites.
>>
>> Do your own homework and stop being so lazy :-)...
>
> Yet again, nothing but arm waving.
>
> You have claimed the GPS PPS pulse is synced to UTC.
>
> I say it is not and the GPS PPS pulse is only specified as an interval.
>
> Prove your statement with a link to a GPS specification, not arm waving.
>

Rofl, i'm quite happy to accept that pps is deterministically
related to UTC, nS offset and all, but you believe what you like.
Millions of users worldwide would disagree with you, but hey,
perhaps you are the only man in step ?...

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<h1doth-95e4.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=212&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#212

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 11:04:03 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jim Pennino - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 18:04 UTC

David Woolley <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
> On 03/08/2021 17:34, Jim Pennino wrote:
>> Please provide the GPS specification that defines the PPS sync to UTC.
>>
>
> I can't think of any good reason why the GPS specification should even
> mention PPS.

Because it is there so there must be a specification that says to do it
and how to do it. Government contractors can't include features on
whims.

> Although there may be specialist equipment that only provides a 1Hz
> frequency standard (although I'd think 10MHz more likely), I think we
> would have seen lots of people reporting problems if real world PPS
> outputs weren't aligned with GPS seconds.

Actually most current equipment provides both.

Again, my position is that the GPS PPS signal is only specified as a
time interval.

If you have a document that says otherwise, produce it.

> As for a typical product specification, the Garmin 18x LVC series has
> this specification:
>
> "The highly accurate one-pulse-per-second (PPS) output is provided for
> applications requiring precise timing measurements. After the initial
> position fix has been calculated, the PPS signal is generated and
> continues until the unit is powered down. The rising edge of the signal
> is aligned to the start of each GPS second within 1 μs for all
> conditions in which the receiver has reported a valid and accurate
> position for at least the previous 4 seconds."
>
> <https://static.garmin.com/pumac/GPS_18x_Tech_Specs.pdf>

Which says nothing about alignment of the GPS PPS signal with anything.

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<sec15c$jqm$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: chris-nospam@tridac.net (chris)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 19:16:12 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: chris - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 18:16 UTC

On 08/03/21 19:08, chris wrote:
> On 08/03/21 18:57, Jim Pennino wrote:
>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>> On 08/03/21 18:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 08/03/21 17:34, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 08/03/21 16:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 08/03/21 15:15, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> David Woolley<david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 03/08/2021 00:37, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> PPS has no information. The purpose of PPS is to provide a
>>>>>>>>>>>> reference
>>>>>>>>>>>> that is as close to 1 Hz, i.e. an elapsed time of 1 second,
>>>>>>>>>>>> as possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> PPS provides information on where within the cycle the true
>>>>>>>>>>> UTC second
>>>>>>>>>>> transition most probably lies. You pretty much acknowledge
>>>>>>>>>>> that later
>>>>>>>>>>> in your description.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In fact if one were to build a highly stable oscillator totally
>>>>>>>>>> independent of GPS, it would still work as a PPS signal.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you think otherwise, please provide the GPS specification.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It may generate a pps signal if divided down, but it would not
>>>>>>>>> be synchronised to UTC or anything else. Only a gps 1 pps
>>>>>>>>> can provide that signal, or another clock locked to UTC.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I should stop digging mate, ever more ridiculous...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please provide the GPS specification that defines the PPS sync
>>>>>>>> to UTC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Typical gps modules will claim a few 10's of ns offset limits
>>>>>>> for local pps in relation to UTC, which is the final arbiter.
>>>>>>> GPS have clocks traceable to national standards and UTC. They
>>>>>>> are the primary reference, to which any local clocks or
>>>>>>> oscillators, vcxo or rb, etc will be locked in sync with.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you need any more info, download the data sheet for a
>>>>>>> typical sub $10 gps module, which should have all the info
>>>>>>> you need...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I did not ask for spec sheets for GPS modules.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please provide the GPS specification that defines the PPS sync to
>>>>>> UTC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You claim PPS is synced to UTC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Prove it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Millions of people depend on it every day, so we know it works. PPS
>>>>> sync is directly traceable to the satellite master clocks and thence
>>>>> to utc maintenance at the national standards labs worldwide. Yes Jim,
>>>>> it's major worldwide collaboration, with everything from GSM mobile,
>>>>> broadcasting, industry,. medicine and more depending on it. ...and you
>>>>> have doubts ?.
>>>>
>>>> You claim the PPS pulse is synced to UTC.
>>>>
>>>> I say it is not.
>>>>
>>>> Prove your statement with a link to a GPS specification, not arm
>>>> waving.
>>>>
>>>>> Not a specialist in the subject,
>>>>
>>>> To say the least...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You really are beyond help, but how do you think gsm cell handover, or
>>> high frequency stock trading works ?. Are you even curious about how
>>> things like that work and make some effort to find out ?.
>>>
>>> The thing about gps time and pps is that you can have a gps rx in London
>>> and one on NY and both pps will be in sync to within 10's
>>> of nS typically. How amazing is that ?. nS accuracy just about
>>> anywhere on the planet where you can see satellites.
>>>
>>> Do your own homework and stop being so lazy :-)...
>>
>> Yet again, nothing but arm waving.
>>
>> You have claimed the GPS PPS pulse is synced to UTC.
>>
>> I say it is not and the GPS PPS pulse is only specified as an interval.
>>
>> Prove your statement with a link to a GPS specification, not arm waving.
>>
>
> Rofl, i'm quite happy to accept that pps is deterministically
> related to UTC, nS offset and all, but you believe what you like.
> Millions of users worldwide would disagree with you, but hey,
> perhaps you are the only man in step ?...
>
>

Just as a final question, how do you think UTC is generated and
maintained these days ?. Clue: What source is used as a reference ?...

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<7udoth-nmf4.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=215&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#215

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 11:19:21 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 18:19 UTC

chris <chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:

<snip old stuff>

> Which beg the question, why are you here if you already have
> all the answers ?. T learn perhaps, as you seem to have no understanding
> of the relationship between utc and pps, even to
> the point of denying there is one ?...

The answer to that question is in the title of the post.

To recap, I was having issues with gpsd, which is a computer program to
simplify interfacing GPS devices to the ntpd program.

As it turned out, the issue was actually in the kernel pps_api.

You keep claiming that the GPS PPS signal is synced to UTC yet every
time I ask you for a reference to that, all you provide is arm waving.

It is still my position, and will be until someone comes up with a GPS
specification that says otherwise, that the only specification for the
GPS PPS signal is interval accuracy, i.e. that it is 1 Hz +/- some
specification.

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<h6foth-nmf4.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=217&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#217

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 11:40:51 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 18:40 UTC

chris <chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:

<snip old crap>

> Just as a final question, how do you think UTC is generated and
> maintained these days ?. Clue: What source is used as a reference ?...

With regards to GPS, as it says in one of the links I gave you, USNO as
GPS is a US government owned system.

If you had actually read any of the links I gave you, you would not post
such a naif question.

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<2peoth-nmf4.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 11:33:40 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 18:33 UTC

chris <chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
> On 08/03/21 18:57, Jim Pennino wrote:
>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>> On 08/03/21 18:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 08/03/21 17:34, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 08/03/21 16:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 08/03/21 15:15, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> David Woolley<david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 03/08/2021 00:37, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> PPS has no information. The purpose of PPS is to provide a reference
>>>>>>>>>>>> that is as close to 1 Hz, i.e. an elapsed time of 1 second, as possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> PPS provides information on where within the cycle the true UTC second
>>>>>>>>>>> transition most probably lies. You pretty much acknowledge that later
>>>>>>>>>>> in your description.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In fact if one were to build a highly stable oscillator totally
>>>>>>>>>> independent of GPS, it would still work as a PPS signal.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you think otherwise, please provide the GPS specification.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It may generate a pps signal if divided down, but it would not
>>>>>>>>> be synchronised to UTC or anything else. Only a gps 1 pps
>>>>>>>>> can provide that signal, or another clock locked to UTC.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I should stop digging mate, ever more ridiculous...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please provide the GPS specification that defines the PPS sync to UTC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Typical gps modules will claim a few 10's of ns offset limits
>>>>>>> for local pps in relation to UTC, which is the final arbiter.
>>>>>>> GPS have clocks traceable to national standards and UTC. They
>>>>>>> are the primary reference, to which any local clocks or
>>>>>>> oscillators, vcxo or rb, etc will be locked in sync with.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you need any more info, download the data sheet for a
>>>>>>> typical sub $10 gps module, which should have all the info
>>>>>>> you need...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I did not ask for spec sheets for GPS modules.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please provide the GPS specification that defines the PPS sync to UTC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You claim PPS is synced to UTC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Prove it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Millions of people depend on it every day, so we know it works. PPS
>>>>> sync is directly traceable to the satellite master clocks and thence
>>>>> to utc maintenance at the national standards labs worldwide. Yes Jim,
>>>>> it's major worldwide collaboration, with everything from GSM mobile,
>>>>> broadcasting, industry,. medicine and more depending on it. ...and you
>>>>> have doubts ?.
>>>>
>>>> You claim the PPS pulse is synced to UTC.
>>>>
>>>> I say it is not.
>>>>
>>>> Prove your statement with a link to a GPS specification, not arm waving.
>>>>
>>>>> Not a specialist in the subject,
>>>>
>>>> To say the least...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You really are beyond help, but how do you think gsm cell handover, or
>>> high frequency stock trading works ?. Are you even curious about how
>>> things like that work and make some effort to find out ?.
>>>
>>> The thing about gps time and pps is that you can have a gps rx in London
>>> and one on NY and both pps will be in sync to within 10's
>>> of nS typically. How amazing is that ?. nS accuracy just about
>>> anywhere on the planet where you can see satellites.
>>>
>>> Do your own homework and stop being so lazy :-)...
>>
>> Yet again, nothing but arm waving.
>>
>> You have claimed the GPS PPS pulse is synced to UTC.
>>
>> I say it is not and the GPS PPS pulse is only specified as an interval.
>>
>> Prove your statement with a link to a GPS specification, not arm waving.
>>
>
> Rofl, i'm quite happy to accept that pps is deterministically
> related to UTC, nS offset and all, but you believe what you like.
> Millions of users worldwide would disagree with you, but hey,
> perhaps you are the only man in step ?...
Does the work 'evidence' mean anything to you?

As far as I am concerned, you are making a wild claim much like the
"einsein was wrong" kooks and YOU are the one that needs to provide
evidence for your claim.

I also doubt that there are more than a few hundreds of people world
wide that know how GPS actually works to the details of PPS signal
specifications, so again, your arm waving is meaningless.

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<sec2uh$1ckg$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: mlichvar@redhat.com (Miroslav Lichvar)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 18:46:41 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <sec2uh$1ckg$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 by: Miroslav Lichvar - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 18:46 UTC

On 2021-08-03, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
> It is still my position, and will be until someone comes up with a GPS
> specification that says otherwise, that the only specification for the
> GPS PPS signal is interval accuracy, i.e. that it is 1 Hz +/- some
> specification.

Maybe this will help https://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/time/gps/gps-info

GPS SYSTEM TIME
GPS system time is given by its Composite Clock (CC). The CC or "paper"
clock consists of all operational Monitor Station and satellite
frequency standards. GPS system time, in turn, is referenced to the
Master Clock (MC) at the USNO and steered to UTC(USNO) from which system
time will not deviate by more than one microsecond. The exact difference
is contained in the navigation message in the form of two constants, A0
and A1, giving the time difference and rate of system time against
UTC(USNO,MC). UTC(USNO) itself is kept very close to the international
benchmark UTC as maintained by the BIPM, and the exact difference, USNO
vs. BIPM is available in near real time.

--
Miroslav Lichvar

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

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From: terje.mathisen@tmsw.no (Terje Mathisen)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 20:48:54 +0200
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Terje Mathisen - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 18:48 UTC

Jim Pennino wrote:
> It also seems the ntpd algorithms fall apart if you have multiple high
> accuracy reference clocks attached. I doubt any of the designers ever
> envisioned the day would come when someone could afford more than one as
> at that time such things would set you back many tens of thousands of
> dollars.

Rather the opposite, this is how we compare various PPS devices, i.e. by
setting 'prefer' on one of them and comparing how the others behave
relative to this, then optionally swtich the prefer around and retry.

Good refclocks, like the original Oncore UT+ allow you to both offset
the PPS signal from the top of the second (to avoid any extra interrupt
latency due to multiple events firing at the same time), and to
determine the sawtooth error, which is the +/-50 ns you get when the PPS
signal is generated from the 10 MHz reference: The serial protocol
includes information about how far off the current pulse is/will be.
>
> Now they cost less than $50.
>
> This is irrelevant as if you have a high accuracy reference clock, you
> only need one and ntpd will sort itself out just fine.
>
ntpd is designed to handle _many_ sources and (with the pool)
automatically settle on a near-optimal set of up to 10 sources.

Terje

--
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

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From: terje.mathisen@tmsw.no (Terje Mathisen)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 20:56:01 +0200
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Terje Mathisen - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 18:56 UTC

chris wrote:
> On 08/03/21 15:15, Jim Pennino wrote:
>> David Woolley<david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid>  wrote:
>>> On 03/08/2021 00:37, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>> PPS has no information. The purpose of PPS is to provide a reference
>>>> that is as close to 1 Hz, i.e. an elapsed time of 1 second, as
>>>> possible.
>>>>
>>>
>>> PPS provides information on where within the cycle the true UTC second
>>> transition most probably lies.  You pretty much acknowledge that later
>>> in your description.
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>> In fact if one were to build a highly stable oscillator totally
>> independent of GPS, it would still work as a PPS signal.
>>
>> If you think otherwise, please provide the GPS specification.
>>
>
> It may generate a pps signal if divided down, but it would not
> be synchronised to UTC or anything else. Only a gps 1 pps
> can provide that signal, or another clock locked to UTC.
>
> I should stop digging mate, ever more ridiculous...

A PPS signal without some additional signal (serial or otherwise) which
names/numbers the seconds will be dropped very quickly by ntpd.

I.e. even if those pulses are delivered by an HP atomic clock, they are
worthless without the secondary info.

Terje

--
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

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