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devel / comp.protocols.time.ntp / Re: gpsd no PPS output

SubjectAuthor
* gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
+* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|+* Re: gpsd no PPS outputWilliam Unruh
||`* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|| `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputWilliam Unruh
||  `- Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|`* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
| `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|  +* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|  |`- Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|  +* Re: gpsd no PPS outputWilliam Unruh
|  |+- Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|  |`- Re: gpsd no PPS outputDavid Woolley
|  `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|   +* Re: gpsd no PPS outputWilliam Unruh
|   |`* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|   | `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|   |  +* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|   |  |`- Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|   |  `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|   |   `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputWilliam Unruh
|   |    `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|   |     `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|   |      `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|   |       `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|   |        `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|   |         `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|   |          `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|   |           `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputWilliam Unruh
|   |            `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|   |             `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputWilliam Unruh
|   |              `- Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|   `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|    +* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|    |`* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|    | `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|    |  `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
|    |   `- Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
|    `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputDavid Woolley
|     `- Re: gpsd no PPS outputchris
+* Re: gpsd no PPS outputMiroslav Lichvar
|`* Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
| `* Re: gpsd no PPS outputMiroslav Lichvar
|  `- Re: gpsd no PPS outputJim Pennino
`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
 +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedWilliam Unruh
 |`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
 | `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedWilliam Unruh
 |  `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
 |   +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedWilliam Unruh
 |   |`- Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
 |   `- Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
 `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedMiroslav Lichvar
  +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
  |`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
  | `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
  |  `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
  |   `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedWilliam Unruh
  |    `- Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
  `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
   `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedDavid Taylor
    +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedTerje Mathisen
    |`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
    | |+* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedDavid Woolley
    | ||+* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | |||`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedDavid Woolley
    | ||| `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | |||  +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedWilliam Unruh
    | |||  |`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | |||  | `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedWilliam Unruh
    | |||  |  `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | |||  |   +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedWilliam Unruh
    | |||  |   |`- Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | |||  |   `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
    | |||  |    `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | |||  |     `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedDavid Woolley
    | |||  |      `- Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | |||  `- Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedDavid Woolley
    | ||`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
    | || +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedWilliam Unruh
    | || |`- Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
    | || +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | || |+* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedDavid Woolley
    | || ||`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | || || `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
    | || ||  +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | || ||  |`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
    | || ||  | `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | || ||  |  +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
    | || ||  |  |`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | || ||  |  | `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
    | || ||  |  |  `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | || ||  |  |   +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
    | || ||  |  |   |+* Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solvedchris
    | || ||  |  |   ||`- Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | || ||  |  |   |`- Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | || ||  |  |   `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedTerje Mathisen
    | || ||  |  |    `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | || ||  |  |     `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedTerje Mathisen
    | || ||  |  |      +* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | || ||  |  |      `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedDavid Woolley
    | || ||  |  `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedDavid Woolley
    | || ||  `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedTerje Mathisen
    | || |`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedTerje Mathisen
    | || `- Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedDavid Woolley
    | |`* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino
    | `* Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedTerje Mathisen
    `- Re: gpsd no PPS output - SolvedJim Pennino

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Re: gpsd no PPS output

<sdtlfm$4rt$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=108&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#108

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From: mlichvar@redhat.com (Miroslav Lichvar)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 07:31:02 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Miroslav Lichvar - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 07:31 UTC

On 2021-07-28, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
> ppstest and ppswatch fail, xgps does not show PPS, and ntpshmmon shows
> only NTP0, i.e. not NTP1 and NTP2.
>
> I ran gpsd as a regular user with -D3 -N to look for errors but it
> looked OK and was accepting PPS. ntpshmmon showed NTP2 and NTP3 and xgps
> did show PPS.

How exactly is gpsd started? With the serial device specified on its
command line, or is it added only later by gpsdctl (via udev+systemd)
when gpsd already dropped the root privileges?

--
Miroslav Lichvar

Re: gpsd no PPS output

<sdu4fs$mc8$1@dont-email.me>

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From: david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid (David Woolley)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 12:47:02 +0100
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 by: David Woolley - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 11:47 UTC

On 29/07/2021 00:03, chris wrote:
>
> I've used ex telco gps do for frequency standard work for years and they
> typically have a pps offset in the 10nS range

Offset relative to what? Do you have an atomic clock that is traceable
to UTC?

The official GPS time transfer accuracy is <= 40ns, so whilst 10ns may
be achievable most of the time, it isn't guaranteed.

Re: gpsd no PPS output

<bhnath-dra1.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 06:37:17 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 13:37 UTC

William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
> On 2021-07-29, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
>> chris <chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>> On 07/29/21 00:24, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>> William Unruh<unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-07-28, Jim Pennino<jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
>>>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 07/28/21 20:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 07/28/21 17:56, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Using Ubuntu 20.04.2 and gpsd 3.20.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I replaced the long running USB GPS with a serial device, reconfigured
>>>>>>>>>> and rebooted.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> NMEA data is just fine and ppscheck works but gpsd is not processing the
>>>>>>>>>> PPS signal on CTS.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ppstest and ppswatch fail, xgps does not show PPS, and ntpshmmon shows
>>>>>>>>>> only NTP0, i.e. not NTP1 and NTP2.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I ran gpsd as a regular user with -D3 -N to look for errors but it
>>>>>>>>>> looked OK and was accepting PPS. ntpshmmon showed NTP2 and NTP3 and xgps
>>>>>>>>>> did show PPS.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Guessing it was some sort of permissions issue I had introduced over the
>>>>>>>>>> years, I did an apt purge gpsd, apt install gpsd and started fresh with
>>>>>>>>>> a reboot.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No change.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thinking maybe apparmor was doing something, I stopped it and did a
>>>>>>>>>> teardown.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No change.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Now I have no clue...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Any suggestions?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One possibility might be that the pps is at ttl level, while a serial
>>>>>>>>> post needs rs3232 +/- levels to trigger properly. You can buy ttl to
>>>>>>>>> rs232 board level adapter for a few $ on Ebay, which is what i'm
>>>>>>>>> using here. Single supply line, 5 or 12 v, don't remember, that you
>>>>>>>>> can tap off from the host b/board...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nope, this is a RS-232 device connected to a RS-232 port and as I said,
>>>>>>>> ppscheck works fine and PPS seems to get processed if gpsd is run as an
>>>>>>>> ordinary user, but not if started by root and run as gpsd.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is NOT a hobby device.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Worth a try. It was the problem on the setup here, a s/hand 1u
>>>>>>> time tools gps ntp server, and a micro atx motherboard running FreeBSD.
>>>>>>> The time tools pps is ttl, as are all the other gps do boxes here, from
>>>>>>> several vendors collected over the years. While such mismatch may
>>>>>>> work with some interfaces, there's no guarantee, as the voltage levels
>>>>>>> are incorrect. Even if it does work, there may be excessive jitter,
>>>>>>> which doesn't help performance. Propagation delay using a drive chip is
>>>>>>> only 10's of nS, havng measure it on a scope, so can be ignored.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the only thing changed is the serial card then it's most likely
>>>>>>> something related...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What changed is I replaced the USB GPS with a GNSS disciplined OCXO
>>>>>> box which has an RS-232 interface and a specified PPS accuracy in the
>>>>>> nanoseconds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It remains to be seen if it actually does nanoseconds, but the 10 MHz
>>>>>> +/- 0.0002 Hz output has been verified.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is pretty useless for timing purposes.
>>>>
>>>> True, but it is just fine and dandy for calibrating frequency counters
>>>> without having to send them somewhere and it allows testing of radio
>>>> dial accuracy no matter the state of the ionosphere.
>>>>
>>>>> Also that is one part in 10^11, and GPS is incapable of giving that.
>>>>> I presume that the PPS output is once per second, and that the pulse
>>>>> width is not too small (milliseconds) , or gpsd might well have trouble recogizing it as
>>>>> a pulse.
>>>>
>>>> This is a commercial box sold specifically as a time and frequency
>>>> standard and purchased because it's specifications are only a bit worse
>>>> than a rubidium standard and about $600 cheaper.
>>>>
>>>> I have already verified that gpsd CAN recognize the PPS on CTS, but NOT
>>>> running with the permissions that it needs to feed ntp.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting, as some serial device chips have internal hardware locking
>>> between some of the control functions. I used the dcd line for the
>>> system here, which was fine, but haven't tested with the cts line...
>>
>> There are no "serial device chips", there is a commercial PCI interface
>> board specified to work as RS-232 ports with full hardware handshake.
>
> But those "PCI interface board" contains "serial device chips"

Yes, they also contain capacitors, resistors, crystals, etc.

An interface board is a commercial item with a specification, i.e. the
board is specified to work in a PCI slot, provide RS-232 ports that have
standard connectors with full hardware handshaking and work with all
native OS serial drivers.

Since the board obviously works to specification, obsessing to what may
or may not be happening at the chip level seems to me to be pointless.

Re: gpsd no PPS output

<91oath-dra1.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 06:45:47 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 13:45 UTC

Miroslav Lichvar <mlichvar@redhat.com> wrote:
> On 2021-07-28, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
>> ppstest and ppswatch fail, xgps does not show PPS, and ntpshmmon shows
>> only NTP0, i.e. not NTP1 and NTP2.
>>
>> I ran gpsd as a regular user with -D3 -N to look for errors but it
>> looked OK and was accepting PPS. ntpshmmon showed NTP2 and NTP3 and xgps
>> did show PPS.
>
> How exactly is gpsd started? With the serial device specified on its
> command line, or is it added only later by gpsdctl (via udev+systemd)
> when gpsd already dropped the root privileges?

It is started by systemd with the options in /etc/default/gpsd which
are:

# Use USB hotplugging to add new USB devices automatically to the daemon
USBAUTO="false"

DEVICES="/dev/ttyS4 /dev/pps0"

# Other options you want to pass to gpsd
GPSD_OPTIONS="-n -b -s9600 "
GPSD_SOCKET=/var/run/gpsd.socket

So a ps shows:

gpsd 1483 1 0 Jul28 ? 00:00:52 /usr/sbin/gpsd -n -b -s9600 /dev/ttyS4 /dev/pps0

Re: gpsd no PPS output

<sduffa$glp$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: mlichvar@redhat.com (Miroslav Lichvar)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 14:54:34 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Miroslav Lichvar - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 14:54 UTC

On 2021-07-29, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
> So a ps shows:
>
> gpsd 1483 1 0 Jul28 ? 00:00:52 /usr/sbin/gpsd -n -b -s9600 /dev/ttyS4 /dev/pps0

Is that /dev/pps0 necessary? IIRC that is needed only when gpsd cannot
create the PPS device on its own (similarly to ldattach). If it is
needed, is gpsd started when it already exists?

--
Miroslav Lichvar

Re: gpsd no PPS output

<phuath-tti1.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 08:36:59 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jim Pennino - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 15:36 UTC

Miroslav Lichvar <mlichvar@redhat.com> wrote:
> On 2021-07-29, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
>> So a ps shows:
>>
>> gpsd 1483 1 0 Jul28 ? 00:00:52 /usr/sbin/gpsd -n -b -s9600 /dev/ttyS4 /dev/pps0
>
> Is that /dev/pps0 necessary? IIRC that is needed only when gpsd cannot
> create the PPS device on its own (similarly to ldattach). If it is
> needed, is gpsd started when it already exists?
>

I do not know if it is "needed" and /dev/pps0 is indeed created by gpsd
as it did not exist until the first time I started gpsd with the serial
interface configuration.

OK, I killed gpsd and /dev/pps0 went away.

I commented pps0 out of the file, restarted gpsd and /dev/pps0 came
back, so I guess it really isn't needed and does nothing.

Still nothing but NTP0 from ntpshmmon.

sudo ntpshmmon
ntpshmmon: version 3.20
# Name Seen@ Clock Real L Prc
sample NTP0 1627572530.002686133 1627572530.002587625 1627572530.000031780 0 -20
sample NTP0 1627572531.002298509 1627572531.002285618 1627572531.000030611 0 -20
sample NTP0 1627572532.003058043 1627572532.002332397 1627572532.000029441 0 -20
^C

sudo ppstest /dev/pps0
trying PPS source "/dev/pps0"
found PPS source "/dev/pps0"
ok, found 1 source(s), now start fetching data...
time_pps_fetch() error -1 (Connection timed out)
time_pps_fetch() error -1 (Connection timed out)
^C

sudo ppscheck /dev/ttyS4
# Seconds nanoSecs Signals
1627572707.885746295 TIOCM_CTS
1627572707.985778695
1627572708.885715568 TIOCM_CTS
1627572708.985741009
1627572709.885677623 TIOCM_CTS
1627572709.985701097
^C

Re: gpsd no PPS output

<sdujvh$sbe$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: chris-nospam@tridac.net (chris)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:11:29 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: chris - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:11 UTC

On 07/29/21 14:37, Jim Pennino wrote:
> William Unruh<unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
>> On 2021-07-29, Jim Pennino<jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>> On 07/29/21 00:24, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>> William Unruh<unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021-07-28, Jim Pennino<jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 07/28/21 20:22, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 07/28/21 17:56, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Using Ubuntu 20.04.2 and gpsd 3.20.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I replaced the long running USB GPS with a serial device, reconfigured
>>>>>>>>>>> and rebooted.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> NMEA data is just fine and ppscheck works but gpsd is not processing the
>>>>>>>>>>> PPS signal on CTS.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ppstest and ppswatch fail, xgps does not show PPS, and ntpshmmon shows
>>>>>>>>>>> only NTP0, i.e. not NTP1 and NTP2.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I ran gpsd as a regular user with -D3 -N to look for errors but it
>>>>>>>>>>> looked OK and was accepting PPS. ntpshmmon showed NTP2 and NTP3 and xgps
>>>>>>>>>>> did show PPS.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Guessing it was some sort of permissions issue I had introduced over the
>>>>>>>>>>> years, I did an apt purge gpsd, apt install gpsd and started fresh with
>>>>>>>>>>> a reboot.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No change.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thinking maybe apparmor was doing something, I stopped it and did a
>>>>>>>>>>> teardown.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No change.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Now I have no clue...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Any suggestions?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One possibility might be that the pps is at ttl level, while a serial
>>>>>>>>>> post needs rs3232 +/- levels to trigger properly. You can buy ttl to
>>>>>>>>>> rs232 board level adapter for a few $ on Ebay, which is what i'm
>>>>>>>>>> using here. Single supply line, 5 or 12 v, don't remember, that you
>>>>>>>>>> can tap off from the host b/board...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nope, this is a RS-232 device connected to a RS-232 port and as I said,
>>>>>>>>> ppscheck works fine and PPS seems to get processed if gpsd is run as an
>>>>>>>>> ordinary user, but not if started by root and run as gpsd.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is NOT a hobby device.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Worth a try. It was the problem on the setup here, a s/hand 1u
>>>>>>>> time tools gps ntp server, and a micro atx motherboard running FreeBSD.
>>>>>>>> The time tools pps is ttl, as are all the other gps do boxes here, from
>>>>>>>> several vendors collected over the years. While such mismatch may
>>>>>>>> work with some interfaces, there's no guarantee, as the voltage levels
>>>>>>>> are incorrect. Even if it does work, there may be excessive jitter,
>>>>>>>> which doesn't help performance. Propagation delay using a drive chip is
>>>>>>>> only 10's of nS, havng measure it on a scope, so can be ignored.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the only thing changed is the serial card then it's most likely
>>>>>>>> something related...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What changed is I replaced the USB GPS with a GNSS disciplined OCXO
>>>>>>> box which has an RS-232 interface and a specified PPS accuracy in the
>>>>>>> nanoseconds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It remains to be seen if it actually does nanoseconds, but the 10 MHz
>>>>>>> +/- 0.0002 Hz output has been verified.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which is pretty useless for timing purposes.
>>>>>
>>>>> True, but it is just fine and dandy for calibrating frequency counters
>>>>> without having to send them somewhere and it allows testing of radio
>>>>> dial accuracy no matter the state of the ionosphere.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Also that is one part in 10^11, and GPS is incapable of giving that.
>>>>>> I presume that the PPS output is once per second, and that the pulse
>>>>>> width is not too small (milliseconds) , or gpsd might well have trouble recogizing it as
>>>>>> a pulse.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a commercial box sold specifically as a time and frequency
>>>>> standard and purchased because it's specifications are only a bit worse
>>>>> than a rubidium standard and about $600 cheaper.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have already verified that gpsd CAN recognize the PPS on CTS, but NOT
>>>>> running with the permissions that it needs to feed ntp.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Interesting, as some serial device chips have internal hardware locking
>>>> between some of the control functions. I used the dcd line for the
>>>> system here, which was fine, but haven't tested with the cts line...
>>>
>>> There are no "serial device chips", there is a commercial PCI interface
>>> board specified to work as RS-232 ports with full hardware handshake.
>>
>> But those "PCI interface board" contains "serial device chips"
>
> Yes, they also contain capacitors, resistors, crystals, etc.
>
> An interface board is a commercial item with a specification, i.e. the
> board is specified to work in a PCI slot, provide RS-232 ports that have
> standard connectors with full hardware handshaking and work with all
> native OS serial drivers.
>
> Since the board obviously works to specification, obsessing to what may
> or may not be happening at the chip level seems to me to be pointless.
>
>

Depending on the chip id, some functions may be inhibited if the control
lines are in the wrong state. So yes, chip hardware architecture does
matter and not always something that can be abstracted away within the
device driver. Devil is in the detail, as usual...

Re: gpsd no PPS output

<sdukhk$152r$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=115&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#115

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From: chris-nospam@tridac.net (chris)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:21:08 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: chris - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:21 UTC

On 07/29/21 02:11, Jim Pennino wrote:
> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>> On 07/29/21 00:32, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip old stuff>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I've used ex telco gps do for frequency standard work for years and they
>>>> typically have a pps offset in the 10nS range. You can even adjust the
>>>> antenna cable length to compensate. Have a look at the time nuts
>>>> mailing list for more info...
>>>
>>>
>>> I bought this thing because I was interested in the state of the art of
>>> affordable devices.
>>>
>>> I am well past the point in my life when I would haunt surplus stores
>>> looking for treasure. I might violate that if I find a good source of
>>> really cheap wave guide.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Depends on the item, but have more or less equipped the lab here with
>> older high end test gear, even some parts / repair. Trade time against
>> money. Never get tired of just making stuff work...
>
> The inducement here is that while GPS disciplined oscillators are very
> old technology which used to live in 19" 5U rack mount boxes and cost
> tens of thousands of dollars, they now consist of some chip sets on a
> circuit board in a 4"X4"X2" high box and costs about $180 with shipping.
>
>

Yes, they do, but they are unlikely to have the phase noise figures of
a better quality unit, nor short term stability. In fact some gpsdo
are using cheap dil vcxo's that that are not even ovenised and wander
all over the place.

Lower cost units should be good enough for ntp use, even if not good
enough for a primary frequency standard...

Re: gpsd no PPS output

<sdulht$1lmp$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=116&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#116

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From: chris-nospam@tridac.net (chris)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:38:21 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: chris - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:38 UTC

On 07/29/21 12:47, David Woolley wrote:
> On 29/07/2021 00:03, chris wrote:
>>
>> I've used ex telco gps do for frequency standard work for years and they
>> typically have a pps offset in the 10nS range
>
> Offset relative to what? Do you have an atomic clock that is traceable
> to UTC?

For telco use, they do need the accuracy for gsm cell sync reasons and
it is quite a tight spec. Have run a couple of HP types for years, the
Z3815 and Z3816 and the HP utility that drives that reports nS
offset from UTC. Perhaps the absolute time is not as important as the
cell to cell sync accuracy, but don't have data on that. As I said,
there's even a function in the utility to adjust delay in the coax
line to the antenna, so they are trying to get well within any
theoretical limits...

>
> The official GPS time transfer accuracy is <= 40ns, so whilst 10ns may
> be achievable most of the time, it isn't guaranteed.

Re: gpsd no PPS output

<ui2bth-lem1.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:45:52 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:45 UTC

chris <chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:

<snip old stuff>

> Depending on the chip id, some functions may be inhibited if the control
> lines are in the wrong state. So yes, chip hardware architecture does
> matter and not always something that can be abstracted away within the
> device driver. Devil is in the detail, as usual...

Yeah, so?

The card obviously works to specification, i.e. RS-232 and it does see CTS.

If it did not work to specification, I would return the card to the
vendor and buy a different one.

Re: gpsd no PPS output

<sdumof$8e4$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: chris-nospam@tridac.net (chris)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:58:55 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: chris - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:58 UTC

On 07/29/21 17:45, Jim Pennino wrote:
> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>
> <snip old stuff>
>
>> Depending on the chip id, some functions may be inhibited if the control
>> lines are in the wrong state. So yes, chip hardware architecture does
>> matter and not always something that can be abstracted away within the
>> device driver. Devil is in the detail, as usual...
>
> Yeah, so?
>
> The card obviously works to specification, i.e. RS-232 and it does see CTS.
>
> If it did not work to specification, I would return the card to the
> vendor and buy a different one.
>

This is hard work, obviously never designed any hardware, nor written
code for it. While the card may very well meet spec, the spec can't
cover all the myriad cases of operation or use.The spec is often
generalised, to allow some slack in component selection and to take
account of advances in the art, but it's the corner cases that can
catch out the unwary...

Re: gpsd no PPS output

<b13bth-lem1.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:53:33 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:53 UTC

chris <chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
> On 07/29/21 02:11, Jim Pennino wrote:
>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>> On 07/29/21 00:32, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip old stuff>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I've used ex telco gps do for frequency standard work for years and they
>>>>> typically have a pps offset in the 10nS range. You can even adjust the
>>>>> antenna cable length to compensate. Have a look at the time nuts
>>>>> mailing list for more info...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I bought this thing because I was interested in the state of the art of
>>>> affordable devices.
>>>>
>>>> I am well past the point in my life when I would haunt surplus stores
>>>> looking for treasure. I might violate that if I find a good source of
>>>> really cheap wave guide.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Depends on the item, but have more or less equipped the lab here with
>>> older high end test gear, even some parts / repair. Trade time against
>>> money. Never get tired of just making stuff work...
>>
>> The inducement here is that while GPS disciplined oscillators are very
>> old technology which used to live in 19" 5U rack mount boxes and cost
>> tens of thousands of dollars, they now consist of some chip sets on a
>> circuit board in a 4"X4"X2" high box and costs about $180 with shipping.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Yes, they do, but they are unlikely to have the phase noise figures of
> a better quality unit, nor short term stability. In fact some gpsdo
> are using cheap dil vcxo's that that are not even ovenised and wander
> all over the place.
>
> Lower cost units should be good enough for ntp use, even if not good
> enough for a primary frequency standard...

Noise figure of what, exactly?

The box has specifications.

If the box does not meet the specifications, the box will be returned to
the vendor.

The box is specified to be a GNSS disciplined OCXO with some very tight
specifications for short and long term stability.

None of this addresses the gpsd issue.

Re: gpsd no PPS output

<935bth-6lo1.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=120&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#120

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 10:28:43 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jim Pennino - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:28 UTC

chris <chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
> On 07/29/21 17:45, Jim Pennino wrote:
>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>
>> <snip old stuff>
>>
>>> Depending on the chip id, some functions may be inhibited if the control
>>> lines are in the wrong state. So yes, chip hardware architecture does
>>> matter and not always something that can be abstracted away within the
>>> device driver. Devil is in the detail, as usual...
>>
>> Yeah, so?
>>
>> The card obviously works to specification, i.e. RS-232 and it does see CTS.
>>
>> If it did not work to specification, I would return the card to the
>> vendor and buy a different one.
>>
>
>
> This is hard work, obviously never designed any hardware, nor written
> code for it. While the card may very well meet spec, the spec can't
> cover all the myriad cases of operation or use.The spec is often
> generalised, to allow some slack in component selection and to take
> account of advances in the art, but it's the corner cases that can
> catch out the unwary...

Do you understand the difference between DIY and purchasing a commercial
product sold to thousands upon thousands if not millions of purchasers?

Do you understand that RS-232 is many decades old and is specified by
TIA-232-F Interface Between Data Terminal Equipment and Data
Circuit-Terminating Equipment Employing Serial Binary Data Interchange,
issued in 1997?

The box and the card are both RS-232.

The card and box combination obviously works.

None of this has ANYTHING to do with the issue of gpsd.

Re: gpsd no PPS output

<sdv2b4$1nfd$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=121&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#121

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From: chris-nospam@tridac.net (chris)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 21:16:36 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <sdv2b4$1nfd$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 by: chris - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 20:16 UTC

On 07/29/21 18:28, Jim Pennino wrote:
> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>> On 07/29/21 17:45, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip old stuff>
>>>
>>>> Depending on the chip id, some functions may be inhibited if the control
>>>> lines are in the wrong state. So yes, chip hardware architecture does
>>>> matter and not always something that can be abstracted away within the
>>>> device driver. Devil is in the detail, as usual...
>>>
>>> Yeah, so?
>>>
>>> The card obviously works to specification, i.e. RS-232 and it does see CTS.
>>>
>>> If it did not work to specification, I would return the card to the
>>> vendor and buy a different one.
>>>
>>
>>
>> This is hard work, obviously never designed any hardware, nor written
>> code for it. While the card may very well meet spec, the spec can't
>> cover all the myriad cases of operation or use.The spec is often
>> generalised, to allow some slack in component selection and to take
>> account of advances in the art, but it's the corner cases that can
>> catch out the unwary...
>
> Do you understand the difference between DIY and purchasing a commercial
> product sold to thousands upon thousands if not millions of purchasers?
>
> Do you understand that RS-232 is many decades old and is specified by
> TIA-232-F Interface Between Data Terminal Equipment and Data
> Circuit-Terminating Equipment Employing Serial Binary Data Interchange,
> issued in 1997?
>
> The box and the card are both RS-232.
>
> The card and box combination obviously works.
>
> None of this has ANYTHING to do with the issue of gpsd.
>
>

That's just the spec for the signals on the wires, nothing to do
with how that is implemented inside devices, or on your pc card,
which may be implemented in many different ways, from bit banging
to fully integrated devices with buffering and even some
intelligence. It only affects your low cost gpsd if you can't
make it work, and need to dig into why it doesn't work...

Re: gpsd no PPS output

<ohmbth-9h72.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=122&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#122

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 15:26:34 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jim Pennino - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 22:26 UTC

chris <chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
> On 07/29/21 18:28, Jim Pennino wrote:
>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>> On 07/29/21 17:45, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip old stuff>
>>>>
>>>>> Depending on the chip id, some functions may be inhibited if the control
>>>>> lines are in the wrong state. So yes, chip hardware architecture does
>>>>> matter and not always something that can be abstracted away within the
>>>>> device driver. Devil is in the detail, as usual...
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, so?
>>>>
>>>> The card obviously works to specification, i.e. RS-232 and it does see CTS.
>>>>
>>>> If it did not work to specification, I would return the card to the
>>>> vendor and buy a different one.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is hard work, obviously never designed any hardware, nor written
>>> code for it. While the card may very well meet spec, the spec can't
>>> cover all the myriad cases of operation or use.The spec is often
>>> generalised, to allow some slack in component selection and to take
>>> account of advances in the art, but it's the corner cases that can
>>> catch out the unwary...
>>
>> Do you understand the difference between DIY and purchasing a commercial
>> product sold to thousands upon thousands if not millions of purchasers?
>>
>> Do you understand that RS-232 is many decades old and is specified by
>> TIA-232-F Interface Between Data Terminal Equipment and Data
>> Circuit-Terminating Equipment Employing Serial Binary Data Interchange,
>> issued in 1997?
>>
>> The box and the card are both RS-232.
>>
>> The card and box combination obviously works.
>>
>> None of this has ANYTHING to do with the issue of gpsd.
>>
>>
>
> That's just the spec for the signals on the wires, nothing to do
> with how that is implemented inside devices, or on your pc card,
> which may be implemented in many different ways, from bit banging
> to fully integrated devices with buffering and even some
> intelligence. It only affects your low cost gpsd if you can't
> make it work, and need to dig into why it doesn't work...
1) I no more care how the manufacturer inplemented what is inside the
box or on the PC card than I care what kind of steel was used to make
the exhaust manifold on my car.

2) The box is low cost compared to the tens of thousands of dollars such
things used to cost.

3) If the box doesn't work, it goes back for a refund. I have no
interest in fixing things with a warrenty.

4) It is blazingly obvious to anyone paying the slightest bit of
attention that the problem is in software, i.e. gpsd, and not the box.

Re: gpsd no PPS output

<sdvcda$plq$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=123&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#123

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: unruh@invalid.ca (William Unruh)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 23:08:26 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: William Unruh - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 23:08 UTC

On 2021-07-29, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
> chris <chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>> On 07/29/21 18:28, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>> On 07/29/21 17:45, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip old stuff>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Depending on the chip id, some functions may be inhibited if the control
>>>>>> lines are in the wrong state. So yes, chip hardware architecture does
>>>>>> matter and not always something that can be abstracted away within the
>>>>>> device driver. Devil is in the detail, as usual...
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, so?
>>>>>
>>>>> The card obviously works to specification, i.e. RS-232 and it does see CTS.
>>>>>
>>>>> If it did not work to specification, I would return the card to the
>>>>> vendor and buy a different one.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is hard work, obviously never designed any hardware, nor written
>>>> code for it. While the card may very well meet spec, the spec can't
>>>> cover all the myriad cases of operation or use.The spec is often
>>>> generalised, to allow some slack in component selection and to take
>>>> account of advances in the art, but it's the corner cases that can
>>>> catch out the unwary...
>>>
>>> Do you understand the difference between DIY and purchasing a commercial
>>> product sold to thousands upon thousands if not millions of purchasers?
>>>
>>> Do you understand that RS-232 is many decades old and is specified by
>>> TIA-232-F Interface Between Data Terminal Equipment and Data
>>> Circuit-Terminating Equipment Employing Serial Binary Data Interchange,
>>> issued in 1997?
>>>
>>> The box and the card are both RS-232.
>>>
>>> The card and box combination obviously works.
>>>
>>> None of this has ANYTHING to do with the issue of gpsd.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> That's just the spec for the signals on the wires, nothing to do
>> with how that is implemented inside devices, or on your pc card,
>> which may be implemented in many different ways, from bit banging
>> to fully integrated devices with buffering and even some
>> intelligence. It only affects your low cost gpsd if you can't
>> make it work, and need to dig into why it doesn't work...
>
> 1) I no more care how the manufacturer inplemented what is inside the
> box or on the PC card than I care what kind of steel was used to make
> the exhaust manifold on my car.
>
> 2) The box is low cost compared to the tens of thousands of dollars such
> things used to cost.

That is of course completely irrelevant. The same could be said of an aluminum
spoon (cost mcuch more than a gold spoon), and yet it would still not be most people's first choice for
tableware.

> Thank you for your suggestions. I always notice the host name part of the prompt string, which is different from each other for the test case discussed here, when I'm on different hosts.
>
> 3) If the box doesn't work, it goes back for a refund. I have no
> interest in fixing things with a warrenty.

But then as point 4 says, you do not know if it is the box or some
misconfiguration (the wetware behind the keyboard) or a bug in gpsd.

>
> 4) It is blazingly obvious to anyone paying the slightest bit of
> attention that the problem is in software, i.e. gpsd, and not the box.

And yet, you also have been cogitating about the possibility that the
serial port (either on the box or on the computer) does not satisfy the RS232 standards, which is hardware

How about trying the direct use of ldattach, instead of using gpsd, to
see if you can get that to work. If it does, and gpsd does not then your
hypothesis that gpsd is at fault is born out. Then you can decide
whether it is better to suffer the slings and arrows of debugging gpsd,
or with one fell swoop use ldattach and have a working system.

>

Re: gpsd no PPS output

<60ubth-84e2.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:33:44 -0700
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <60ubth-84e2.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>
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 by: Jim Pennino - Fri, 30 Jul 2021 00:33 UTC

William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
> On 2021-07-29, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
>> chris <chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>> On 07/29/21 18:28, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 07/29/21 17:45, Jim Pennino wrote:
>>>>>> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip old stuff>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Depending on the chip id, some functions may be inhibited if the control
>>>>>>> lines are in the wrong state. So yes, chip hardware architecture does
>>>>>>> matter and not always something that can be abstracted away within the
>>>>>>> device driver. Devil is in the detail, as usual...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, so?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The card obviously works to specification, i.e. RS-232 and it does see CTS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it did not work to specification, I would return the card to the
>>>>>> vendor and buy a different one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is hard work, obviously never designed any hardware, nor written
>>>>> code for it. While the card may very well meet spec, the spec can't
>>>>> cover all the myriad cases of operation or use.The spec is often
>>>>> generalised, to allow some slack in component selection and to take
>>>>> account of advances in the art, but it's the corner cases that can
>>>>> catch out the unwary...
>>>>
>>>> Do you understand the difference between DIY and purchasing a commercial
>>>> product sold to thousands upon thousands if not millions of purchasers?
>>>>
>>>> Do you understand that RS-232 is many decades old and is specified by
>>>> TIA-232-F Interface Between Data Terminal Equipment and Data
>>>> Circuit-Terminating Equipment Employing Serial Binary Data Interchange,
>>>> issued in 1997?
>>>>
>>>> The box and the card are both RS-232.
>>>>
>>>> The card and box combination obviously works.
>>>>
>>>> None of this has ANYTHING to do with the issue of gpsd.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's just the spec for the signals on the wires, nothing to do
>>> with how that is implemented inside devices, or on your pc card,
>>> which may be implemented in many different ways, from bit banging
>>> to fully integrated devices with buffering and even some
>>> intelligence. It only affects your low cost gpsd if you can't
>>> make it work, and need to dig into why it doesn't work...
>>
>> 1) I no more care how the manufacturer inplemented what is inside the
>> box or on the PC card than I care what kind of steel was used to make
>> the exhaust manifold on my car.
>>
>> 2) The box is low cost compared to the tens of thousands of dollars such
>> things used to cost.
>
> That is of course completely irrelevant. The same could be said of an aluminum
> spoon (cost mcuch more than a gold spoon), and yet it would still not be most people's first choice for
> tableware.

At one time the cost of aluminum was much higher than gold...

>
>> Thank you for your suggestions. I always notice the host name part of the prompt string, which is different from each other for the test case discussed here, when I'm on different hosts.
>>
>> 3) If the box doesn't work, it goes back for a refund. I have no
>> interest in fixing things with a warrenty.
>
> But then as point 4 says, you do not know if it is the box or some
> misconfiguration (the wetware behind the keyboard) or a bug in gpsd.

Point 4 says I DO know the problem is in gpsd.
>>
>> 4) It is blazingly obvious to anyone paying the slightest bit of
>> attention that the problem is in software, i.e. gpsd, and not the box.
>
> And yet, you also have been cogitating about the possibility that the
> serial port (either on the box or on the computer) does not satisfy the RS232 standards, which is hardware
>

No, I have not, that is someone else fixating on that. That was settled
as far as I am concerned before I made the first post.

> How about trying the direct use of ldattach, instead of using gpsd, to
> see if you can get that to work. If it does, and gpsd does not then your
> hypothesis that gpsd is at fault is born out. Then you can decide
> whether it is better to suffer the slings and arrows of debugging gpsd,
> or with one fell swoop use ldattach and have a working system.
That gpsd has some sort of issue is well established at this point.

Any further debugging of gpsd will be done with the gpsd support list.

Re: gpsd no PPS output

<sdvoqn$tmb$1@dont-email.me>

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From: unruh@invalid.ca (William Unruh)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 02:40:23 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: William Unruh - Fri, 30 Jul 2021 02:40 UTC

On 2021-07-30, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
> William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>> 2) The box is low cost compared to the tens of thousands of dollars such
>>> things used to cost.
>>
>> That is of course completely irrelevant. The same could be said of an aluminum
>> spoon (cost mcuch more than a gold spoon), and yet it would still not be most people's first choice for
>> tableware.
>
> At one time the cost of aluminum was much higher than gold...

Yes. Precisely. You are the one claiming that because prices are cheaper
now, it means something about the quality of the object for the purpose.

>> But then as point 4 says, you do not know if it is the box or some
>> misconfiguration (the wetware behind the keyboard) or a bug in gpsd.
>
> Point 4 says I DO know the problem is in gpsd.

No.

Why do you feel that you know that the problem is gpsd? You have tested
the interrupt handling with other programs (lets say like ldattach)? Not
that you have given any indication of. You simply say "it is obvious"
Unfortunately I have seen far far to many instances in wich someone says
"it is obvious" and they turned out to be entirely wrong.

>
>>>
>>> 4) It is blazingly obvious to anyone paying the slightest bit of
>>> attention that the problem is in software, i.e. gpsd, and not the box.
>>
>> And yet, you also have been cogitating about the possibility that the
>> serial port (either on the box or on the computer) does not satisfy the RS232 standards, which is hardware
>>
>
> No, I have not, that is someone else fixating on that. That was settled
> as far as I am concerned before I made the first post.
>
>> How about trying the direct use of ldattach, instead of using gpsd, to
>> see if you can get that to work. If it does, and gpsd does not then your
>> hypothesis that gpsd is at fault is born out. Then you can decide
>> whether it is better to suffer the slings and arrows of debugging gpsd,
>> or with one fell swoop use ldattach and have a working system.
>
> That gpsd has some sort of issue is well established at this point.

Proof by blatant assertion is always a very poor argument.

Since ldattach is a stadard part of linux, and since the use of it is
trivial, your blind refusal to test is pretty suspicious.

>
> Any further debugging of gpsd will be done with the gpsd support list.

And here I thought that the purpose was to get your time working, not to
debug gpsd. Oh well, sorry.

>
>
>

Re: gpsd no PPS output

<vo6cth-1lj2.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 20:03:29 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jim Pennino - Fri, 30 Jul 2021 03:03 UTC

William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
> On 2021-07-30, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
>> William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 2) The box is low cost compared to the tens of thousands of dollars such
>>>> things used to cost.
>>>
>>> That is of course completely irrelevant. The same could be said of an aluminum
>>> spoon (cost mcuch more than a gold spoon), and yet it would still not be most people's first choice for
>>> tableware.
>>
>> At one time the cost of aluminum was much higher than gold...
>
> Yes. Precisely. You are the one claiming that because prices are cheaper
> now, it means something about the quality of the object for the purpose.

I have never said anything like that.

What I did say was that I was interested in what such a device could do
compared to the older stuff that cost two orders of magnitude more money
new and still cost a magnitude more on the surplus market as well as
taking up 5U in a 19 inch rack.

>>> But then as point 4 says, you do not know if it is the box or some
>>> misconfiguration (the wetware behind the keyboard) or a bug in gpsd.
>>
>> Point 4 says I DO know the problem is in gpsd.
>
> No.
>
> Why do you feel that you know that the problem is gpsd?

If you actually read and understood what I wrote, you would know why.

> You have tested
> the interrupt handling with other programs (lets say like ldattach)? Not
> that you have given any indication of. You simply say "it is obvious"
> Unfortunately I have seen far far to many instances in wich someone says
> "it is obvious" and they turned out to be entirely wrong.

It is obvious from what gpsd and related programs do that CTS gets
through the plug and to the computer.

What is not obvious is why gpsd does not forward PPS through the shared
memory segment.

>>>> 4) It is blazingly obvious to anyone paying the slightest bit of
>>>> attention that the problem is in software, i.e. gpsd, and not the box.
>>>
>>> And yet, you also have been cogitating about the possibility that the
>>> serial port (either on the box or on the computer) does not satisfy the RS232 standards, which is hardware
>>>
>>
>> No, I have not, that is someone else fixating on that. That was settled
>> as far as I am concerned before I made the first post.
>>
>>> How about trying the direct use of ldattach, instead of using gpsd, to
>>> see if you can get that to work. If it does, and gpsd does not then your
>>> hypothesis that gpsd is at fault is born out. Then you can decide
>>> whether it is better to suffer the slings and arrows of debugging gpsd,
>>> or with one fell swoop use ldattach and have a working system.
>>
>> That gpsd has some sort of issue is well established at this point.
>
> Proof by blatant assertion is always a very poor argument.

And also proved though discourse with people knowledgeable with gpsd.

> Since ldattach is a stadard part of linux, and since the use of it is
> trivial, your blind refusal to test is pretty suspicious.

Since my major interest is in getting gpsd to work, it is irrelevant as
gpsd takes care of such things.

>> Any further debugging of gpsd will be done with the gpsd support list.
>
> And here I thought that the purpose was to get your time working, not to
> debug gpsd. Oh well, sorry.

The original post was to attempt to find out why ntpd was not working.

That evolved into discovering that ntpd doesn't work because gpsd has
either a bug or a configuration issue.

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<8j2gth-nm22.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=127&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#127

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 07:16:42 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jim Pennino - Sat, 31 Jul 2021 14:16 UTC

Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:

It turns out there is a kernel bug in Ubuntu 5.4.0-80-generic which
breaks PPS processing.

The net result is that an application that looks at /dev/ttySx will have
no issues and will see CTS being asserted but anything that looks at
/dev/ppsx will fail.

According to Focal, a kernel update is imminent...

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<se3uqe$9st$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=129&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#129

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From: unruh@invalid.ca (William Unruh)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 16:47:10 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: William Unruh - Sat, 31 Jul 2021 16:47 UTC

Do you have a reference for this-- eg a URL?
On 2021-07-31, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
> Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
>
> It turns out there is a kernel bug in Ubuntu 5.4.0-80-generic which
> breaks PPS processing.
>
> The net result is that an application that looks at /dev/ttySx will have
> no issues and will see CTS being asserted but anything that looks at
> /dev/ppsx will fail.
>
> According to Focal, a kernel update is imminent...
>
>

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<qjlgth-enh2.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 12:41:16 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Sat, 31 Jul 2021 19:41 UTC

William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
> Do you have a reference for this-- eg a URL?

A reference for the kernel bug?

No, this was determined by downloading source for various GPS utility
programs and running them under a debugger noting where the failure
occured and seeing that it always happened in a ppsapi routine.

And yes, the kernel says all the pps related modules are loaded.

> On 2021-07-31, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
>> Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
>>
>> It turns out there is a kernel bug in Ubuntu 5.4.0-80-generic which
>> breaks PPS processing.
>>
>> The net result is that an application that looks at /dev/ttySx will have
>> no issues and will see CTS being asserted but anything that looks at
>> /dev/ppsx will fail.
>>
>> According to Focal, a kernel update is imminent...
>>
>>

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<se4d0n$7cf$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=131&group=comp.protocols.time.ntp#131

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From: unruh@invalid.ca (William Unruh)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 20:49:27 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: William Unruh - Sat, 31 Jul 2021 20:49 UTC

On 2021-07-31, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
> William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
>> Do you have a reference for this-- eg a URL?
>
> A reference for the kernel bug?
>
> No, this was determined by downloading source for various GPS utility
> programs and running them under a debugger noting where the failure
> occured and seeing that it always happened in a ppsapi routine.

So you reported the bug? What is the bug report then.
What was the "failure"?
Note that the pps driver is highly time sensative, and a debugger could
upset that, and report bug which is due to the interaction with the
debugger.

>
> And yes, the kernel says all the pps related modules are loaded.
>
>
>> On 2021-07-31, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
>>> Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> It turns out there is a kernel bug in Ubuntu 5.4.0-80-generic which
>>> breaks PPS processing.
>>>
>>> The net result is that an application that looks at /dev/ttySx will have
>>> no issues and will see CTS being asserted but anything that looks at
>>> /dev/ppsx will fail.
>>>
>>> According to Focal, a kernel update is imminent...
>>>
>>>

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<ptqgth-61l2.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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From: jimp@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 14:11:55 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Sat, 31 Jul 2021 21:11 UTC

William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
> On 2021-07-31, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
>> William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>> Do you have a reference for this-- eg a URL?
>>
>> A reference for the kernel bug?
>>
>> No, this was determined by downloading source for various GPS utility
>> programs and running them under a debugger noting where the failure
>> occured and seeing that it always happened in a ppsapi routine.
>
> So you reported the bug? What is the bug report then.

As there is an immenent kernel update, I didn't bother.

If the update doesn't fix the issue, then I will consider a bug report
for that kernel.

> What was the "failure"?
> Note that the pps driver is highly time sensative, and a debugger could
> upset that, and report bug which is due to the interaction with the
> debugger.

I have been writiting and debugging software since mid 1970 and do have
some idea of how it is done, but thank you for your comments.

Quiz of the day: What does "RT" in RT-11 stand for?

Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved

<se4h1s$5h1$1@dont-email.me>

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From: unruh@invalid.ca (William Unruh)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.time.ntp
Subject: Re: gpsd no PPS output - Solved
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 21:58:20 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: William Unruh - Sat, 31 Jul 2021 21:58 UTC

On 2021-07-31, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
> William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
>> On 2021-07-31, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
>>> William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>>> Do you have a reference for this-- eg a URL?
>>>
>>> A reference for the kernel bug?
>>>
>>> No, this was determined by downloading source for various GPS utility
>>> programs and running them under a debugger noting where the failure
>>> occured and seeing that it always happened in a ppsapi routine.
>>
>> So you reported the bug? What is the bug report then.
>
> As there is an immenent kernel update, I didn't bother.

Kernels are updated for many reasons, and there seems to be no reason
why it would fix this particular bug if noone had ever reported it.

And are you sure that the evidence for this bug is not there in many of
the kernel versions? Ie, it could be a peculiarity of your own system
rather than being generic.

You were originally completely sure that this was a bug in gpsd. Now it
is a kernel bug.
>
> If the update doesn't fix the issue, then I will consider a bug report
> for that kernel.
>
>> What was the "failure"?
>> Note that the pps driver is highly time sensative, and a debugger could
>> upset that, and report bug which is due to the interaction with the
>> debugger.
>
> I have been writiting and debugging software since mid 1970 and do have
> some idea of how it is done, but thank you for your comments.
>
> Quiz of the day: What does "RT" in RT-11 stand for?
>
>

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