Is there any app you love & use that doesn't fit into this hierarchy?
<https://i.postimg.cc/yY74z87s/taskbarmenu06.jpg> My standard hierarchy
archiver
browser
cleaner
database
editor
finance
game
hardware
network
os
telecom

My {programs,installers,menu} folders have been the same for decades.
Ever since Windows 95 & XP days, I've used those dozen folders alone.

They are so exactly the same, a menu folder copied from XP works on Win10.
Literally. I'm not joking. Copy the start menu from XP & it works on Win10.

Certainly a menu works from Windows 7 to Windows 10 if you're organized.
And, of course, any Win10 menu works out of the box in another Win10.(*1)

Everything I have installed fits into one of those dozen folders.
Organized by what they do (not by their silly marketing branding).

Obviously there are sub folders, so, for example, my Irfanview is:
Software: c:\software\editor\pic\irfanview\{whatever files are needed}
Menu: c:\menu\editor\pic\irfanview.lnk
Programs: c:\app\editor\pic\irfanview\{whatever files it installed}

My question?

Is there any app you love & use that doesn't fit into this hierarchy?
<https://i.postimg.cc/D0J1tgDZ/windows-tweak.jpg> A standard hierarchy
--
(1) Sometimes there are minor changes in execuable names so links may
need slight adjustments to fit those minor changes over the decades.

On 4/5/2023 1:49 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Is there any app you love & use that doesn't fit into this hierarchy?
> <https://i.postimg.cc/yY74z87s/taskbarmenu06.jpg> My standard hierarchy
>  archiver
>  browser
>  cleaner
>  database
>  editor
>  finance
>  game
>  hardware
>  network
>  os
>  telecom
Why is that a hierarchy? Buy what measure or standard do you determine
"inclusion"? Just curious.
<SNIP stuff not relevant to my question>
--
Jeff Barnett

Jeff Barnett wrote:

> Why is that a hierarchy? Buy what measure or standard do you determine
> "inclusion"? Just curious.

Good question.

Every one of us has "helped" a technically clueless Windows user, and I
wouldn't be the first to notice that I've seen people download an installer
and then spend five minutes finding where they downloaded it, and then,
perhaps, running the installer and then spending another ten minutes
finding where it put the executables, or, in not being able to do even
that, they just let the desktop get cluttered from side to side, top to
bottom, with icons of the previous installed programs, in LIFO order.

To me... that's the biggest problem people have with Microsoft Windows.
*ORGANIZATION*

To succeed, there is a place for everything; & everything is in its place.
If you ever need to "run a search" for something - you have already failed.

<https://i.postimg.cc/j5K0RL7H/taskbarmenu01.jpg> to search is to fail

The bane of computers, for a typical consumer, is organization (IMHO).
Yet every consumer knows how to organize their tools, don't they?

For example, knives and forks and spoons have their place in a kitchen.
So it should be, IMHO, with computers.

Yet what organizational tree would one rightly use for their applications?
I propose an organizational tree which has worked for me for decades.

There's no magic _how_ you organize your kitchen implements.
The magic is that you organize them.

Usually you organize them in a way that makes perfect sense, to you.
And, let's be clear, if needed, it makes immediate sense to anyone else.

That... is... how ... computers... should... be... organized... after all.

Every program installed has to fit in a hierarchy, where what Microsoft
provides, by example, is a purely alphabetical hierarchy by brand name.

That's ridiculous.
C:\Program Files\{hierarchy by purely brand name characteristics}

Taking just browsers as an example, how would _you_ organize your browers?

One example of a browser organization I've tried in the past is by type:
<https://i.postimg.cc/PrcV1pXF/browser06.jpg> Browsers by type
Other examples of organizational trees I've tried for browser is by name
<https://i.postimg.cc/Mpwvz1pF/browser09.jpg> Browsers by name
Yet other examples are to organize browsers by level of privacy
<https://i.postimg.cc/hjjVXkq5/taskbarmenu07.jpg> Browsers by privacy

Always keeping in mind the limitation of Microsoft Windows that most
things are listed, no matter how you plan it, alphabetically by a sorting
order defined by Microsoft (which, let's agree, doesn't always make sense).

That last screenshot shows how our organizational tree has to fit within
how Microsoft shows things, much as a kitchen implement draw has holders
of the shape suitable for forks, spoons and knives in a given order.

Every program installed has (generally) three fundamental components:
software (i.e.., where do you download & store the installers)
installation (i.e., where do you install that software program)
menu (i.e., where/how do you _access_ those software programs)

While I'm aware most people have no organization whatsoever, most people
sort their kitchen spoons in a location next to their kitchen forks, right?

Same concept here.

You start with a top level (the kitchen top drawer) and then you put
everything in a hierarchy below that top level.

Bear in mind "suites" compound the problem set, as you could argue that the
Adobe suites, Microsoft Office suites, Nirsoft & Sysinternals suites could
be broken up or kept together - where I've tried both but gave up in the
end, and I keep them as a "suite" level within the respective hierarchy:
c:\app\editor\document\office\{word,excel,ppt}

However, to answer your question, in more detail, every program fits
somewhere in your computer archival location, your computer installation
location, and in your computer menu location... just as every kitchen tool
fits somewhere in your kitchen counters, drawers, cabinets and shelves.

You only have so many ways to organize things inside of Microsoft Windows.

As an example of the next level of hierarchy, using only a sample of three
items below the first level of hierarchy for the dozen canonical folders...
c:\app\archiver\{7zip,izarc,winrar}
c:\app\browser\{aloha,brave,firefox}
c:\app\cleaner\{duplicate,uninstall,vaccine}\{hijackthis,norton,spybot}
c:\app\database\{calendar,passwd,tts}\{balaboka,espeak,spelltest}
c:\app\editor\{audio,image,video}\{avconv,mediasplitter,shotcut}
c:\app\finance\{quicken,taxcut,turbotax}
c:\app\game\{cod,minecraft,sims}
c:\app\hardware\{bsod,cpu,video}\{furmark,gpu-z,rivatuner}
c:\app\network\{ftpuse,openssl,stunnel}
c:\app\os\{netframework,visualc++,winmerge}
c:\app\telecom\{email,news,zoom}

Note: Once you have the installation menu, the rest follow suite.
<https://i.postimg.cc/yY74z87s/taskbarmenu06.jpg> All locations match

Note: My actual organization tree is a bit simplified in that plurals
are not allowed (e.g., app vs apps) except when required (e.g., news).

Note: I try to avoid catchall categories such as "misc" & "util", but
in some cases they're virtually unavoidable (e.g., "os").

In summary, the goal of organizing your tools, such as your screwdrivers,
pliers and wrenches is more that you organize them in a way that fits your
garage, just as you organize your kitchen implements in a way that fits
your kitchen.

The actual organization doesn't matter as individual preferences will
prevail, e.g., my wife organizes the "silver" implements in a different
drawer in a hierarchy below the steel forks and spoons of the hoi polloi.

But what does matter, is that most people can't find their stuff.
I, for one, have never needed a Windows Cortana search ever.
Not in decades, have I needed to search for anything I ever needed.

Why not?
Because there is a place for everything; and everything is in its place.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information
which, in this case, is to faithfully try to propose a usable organization.

--
このメールは、アバスト アンチウイルス ソフトウェアでウイルス チェックされています。
www.avast.com

On 4/5/2023 8:39 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Jeff Barnett wrote:
>
>> Why is that a hierarchy? Buy what measure or standard do you determine
>> "inclusion"? Just curious.
>
> Good question.
> Every one of us has "helped" a technically clueless Windows user, and I
> wouldn't be the first to notice that I've seen people download an installer
> and then spend five minutes finding where they downloaded it, and then,
> perhaps, running the installer and then spending another ten minutes
> finding where it put the executables, or, in not being able to do even
> that, they just let the desktop get cluttered from side to side, top to
> bottom, with icons of the previous installed programs, in LIFO order.
>
> To me... that's the biggest problem people have with Microsoft Windows.
>   *ORGANIZATION*
>
> To succeed, there is a place for everything; & everything is in its place.
> If you ever need to "run a search" for something - you have already failed.
>
> <https://i.postimg.cc/j5K0RL7H/taskbarmenu01.jpg> to search is to fail
>
> The bane of computers, for a typical consumer, is organization (IMHO).
> Yet every consumer knows how to organize their tools, don't they?
>
> For example, knives and forks and spoons have their place in a kitchen.
> So it should be, IMHO, with computers.
>
> Yet what organizational tree would one rightly use for their applications?
> I propose an organizational tree which has worked for me for decades.
>
> There's no magic _how_ you organize your kitchen implements.
> The magic is that you organize them.
>
> Usually you organize them in a way that makes perfect sense, to you.
> And, let's be clear, if needed, it makes immediate sense to anyone else.
>
> That... is... how ... computers... should... be... organized... after all.
>
> Every program installed has to fit in a hierarchy, where what Microsoft
> provides, by example, is a purely alphabetical hierarchy by brand name.
>
> That's ridiculous.
> C:\Program Files\{hierarchy by purely brand name characteristics}
>
> Taking just browsers as an example, how would _you_ organize your browers?
>
> One example of a browser organization I've tried in the past is by type:
> <https://i.postimg.cc/PrcV1pXF/browser06.jpg> Browsers by type
> Other examples of organizational trees I've tried for browser is by name
> <https://i.postimg.cc/Mpwvz1pF/browser09.jpg> Browsers by name
> Yet other examples are to organize browsers by level of privacy
> <https://i.postimg.cc/hjjVXkq5/taskbarmenu07.jpg> Browsers by privacy
>
> Always keeping in mind the limitation of Microsoft Windows that most
> things are listed, no matter how you plan it, alphabetically by a sorting
> order defined by Microsoft (which, let's agree, doesn't always make sense).
>
> That last screenshot shows how our organizational tree has to fit within
> how Microsoft shows things, much as a kitchen implement draw has holders
> of the shape suitable for forks, spoons and knives in a given order.
>
> Every program installed has (generally) three fundamental components:
> software (i.e.., where do you download & store the installers)
> installation (i.e., where do you install that software program)
> menu (i.e., where/how do you _access_ those software programs)
>
> While I'm aware most people have no organization whatsoever, most people
> sort their kitchen spoons in a location next to their kitchen forks, right?
>
> Same concept here.
>
> You start with a top level (the kitchen top drawer) and then you put
> everything in a hierarchy below that top level.
>
> Bear in mind "suites" compound the problem set, as you could argue that the
> Adobe suites, Microsoft Office suites, Nirsoft & Sysinternals suites could
> be broken up or kept together - where I've tried both but gave up in the
> end, and I keep them as a "suite" level within the respective hierarchy:
> c:\app\editor\document\office\{word,excel,ppt}
>
> However, to answer your question, in more detail, every program fits
> somewhere in your computer archival location, your computer installation
> location, and in your computer menu location...  just as every kitchen tool
> fits somewhere in your kitchen counters, drawers, cabinets and shelves.
>
> You only have so many ways to organize things inside of Microsoft Windows.
>
> As an example of the next level of hierarchy, using only a sample of three
> items below the first level of hierarchy for the dozen canonical folders...
> c:\app\archiver\{7zip,izarc,winrar}
> c:\app\browser\{aloha,brave,firefox}
> c:\app\cleaner\{duplicate,uninstall,vaccine}\{hijackthis,norton,spybot}
> c:\app\database\{calendar,passwd,tts}\{balaboka,espeak,spelltest}
> c:\app\editor\{audio,image,video}\{avconv,mediasplitter,shotcut}
> c:\app\finance\{quicken,taxcut,turbotax}
> c:\app\game\{cod,minecraft,sims}
> c:\app\hardware\{bsod,cpu,video}\{furmark,gpu-z,rivatuner}
> c:\app\network\{ftpuse,openssl,stunnel}
> c:\app\os\{netframework,visualc++,winmerge}
> c:\app\telecom\{email,news,zoom}
>
> Note: Once you have the installation menu, the rest follow suite.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/yY74z87s/taskbarmenu06.jpg> All locations match
>
> Note: My actual organization tree is a bit simplified in that plurals
> are not allowed  (e.g., app vs apps) except when required (e.g., news).
>
> Note: I try to avoid catchall categories such as "misc" & "util", but
> in some cases they're virtually unavoidable (e.g., "os").
>
> In summary, the goal of organizing your tools, such as your screwdrivers,
> pliers and wrenches is more that you organize them in a way that fits your
> garage, just as you organize your kitchen implements in a way that fits
> your kitchen.
> The actual organization doesn't matter as individual preferences will
> prevail, e.g., my wife organizes the "silver" implements in a different
> drawer in a hierarchy below the steel forks and spoons of the hoi polloi.
>
> But what does matter, is that most people can't find their stuff.
> I, for one, have never needed a Windows Cortana search ever.
> Not in decades, have I needed to search for anything I ever needed.
>
> Why not?
> Because there is a place for everything; and everything is in its place.
Neat and tidy is often a good idea; so is "because that's the way I
remember things". On the other hand hierarchies are an organizational
concept that has technical definitions: in language, in many sciences,
in philosophy, in data structures, etc. All of these uses have a theory
about why things are arranged in their hierarchy, i.e., what sort of
relation exists between and item and its parent that doesn't exist
between that object and any other thing except ancestors of the parent.
Typically the relation is something like "is an example of" and the
realization of the relation is a tree.
What you describe isn't a hierarchy; it's a forest of short trees.
That's okay if it helps you organize stuff it's a good thing for you
whether it's technically a hierarchy or not. Most people who are careful
pick some organization that feels natural to them. As long as it helps
you it's good. Thanks for sharing.
--
Jeff Barnett

Jeff Barnett wrote:

> Neat and tidy is often a good idea; so is "because that's the way I
> remember things". On the other hand hierarchies are an organizational
> concept that has technical definitions: in language, in many sciences,
> in philosophy, in data structures, etc.

You don't see that the hierarchy is ordered by function?

Take a look at my Android homescreen - hierarchy ordered also by function.
<https://i.postimg.cc/3r0yNRcT/network02.jpg> network tools folder
<https://i.postimg.cc/BZwR6gXc/buy02.jpg> shopping tools folder
<https://i.postimg.cc/CMmSsgtN/maps01.jpg> map tools folder
<https://i.postimg.cc/CxTxzsfC/sys01.jpg> system tools folder
<https://i.postimg.cc/FFYqg9Dv/maps05.jpg> map tools apk archive
<https://i.postimg.cc/fRNg5hn0/audio01.jpg> audio tools folder
<https://i.postimg.cc/fTFcQ5d4/dock.jpg> dock tools folder
<https://i.postimg.cc/pLFpXfMP/maps07.jpg> maps offline/online sections
<https://i.postimg.cc/rmvDBN8Q/files01.jpg> file management tools folder
<https://i.postimg.cc/vTQ13DcK/apk01.jpg> installation tools folder
<https://i.postimg.cc/vZmTvPZx/maps02.jpg> map folder traffic section
<https://i.postimg.cc/WpM4FM5t/web01.jpg> web tools folder
<https://i.postimg.cc/XvN1Scvj/video01.jpg> video tools folder
<https://i.postimg.cc/Zn73yqm1/network03.jpg> network tools server section

Doesn't it make sense to you to order applications by what they do?
You're only limited by the constraints that the operating system adds.

Android, for example, is a two-story building in terms of the hierarchy.

Windows, luckily, is a multi-story building, but even as I can put editors
on one level and picture editors on another, it's still alphabetical.

We have to live within the constraints of the operating system display.

> All of these uses have a theory
> about why things are arranged in their hierarchy, i.e., what sort of
> relation exists between and item and its parent that doesn't exist
> between that object and any other thing except ancestors of the parent.
> Typically the relation is something like "is an example of" and the
> realization of the relation is a tree.

The relationship is clearly, and obviously, and openly, functionality.
archivers, browsers, cleaners, database managers, editors, etc.

At some point, I might need to say that everyone complains about the
weather but nobody does a thing about it, as I get that you don't think
that the hierarchy I came up with for myself is organized by functionality.

Every one of probably thousands of apps I've installed, fit in that
multi-level structure and hence, they are always easy to logically find.

How would you organize all Windows apps on your PC that you love & use?

> What you describe isn't a hierarchy; it's a forest of short trees.

That's a fair enough assessment where it's organized within the limitations
of the Microsoft operating system which, unfortunately, mostly alphabetizes
the menus, and the directory tree, whether I like that fact or not.

Same with Android, which limits the levels of hierarchy to one lower level.

> That's okay if it helps you organize stuff it's a good thing for you
> whether it's technically a hierarchy or not. Most people who are careful
> pick some organization that feels natural to them. As long as it helps
> you it's good. Thanks for sharing.

You're quite welcome. I am the first one to say that the most important
thing is to organize your tools. It's a secondary concern how you do that.

I can fit _every_ app (more or less) into that structure of only a dozen
top level hierarchies - where the operating system constrains the display
to something around a dozen or two dozen (max) to be of any real use.

As Paul knows, I've valiantly tried to get the binary tile menus to behave
but I finally gave up, just as I did with the alphabetical menus.

I also never use "Program Files" or any of its variants because it's a mess
and it is too much work to move errant programs into where they belong.

In summary, most people organize their kitchen utensils but for some
reason, on Windows, they have trouble organizing their applications.

My suggestion is simply a starting point "template", much like the kinds of
plastic forms you buy to put in kitchen drawers to organize forks & spoons.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information
which, in this case, is to faithfully agree with most of those comments.

On 4/5/23 22:39, this is what Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Every one of us has "helped" a technically clueless Windows user, and I
> wouldn't be the first to notice that I've seen people download an installer
> and then spend five minutes finding where they downloaded it, and then,
> perhaps, running the installer and then spending another ten minutes
> finding where it put the executables, or, in not being able to do even
> that, they just let the desktop get cluttered from side to side, top to
> bottom, with icons of the previous installed programs, in LIFO order.

To me, this is more a matter of education. My wife is no computer genius, she leans on me for a lot of things. One
thing she can do, is download something and know "because it's the way", that it's in the Downloads folder. And when it
is installed, it's on the menu, a simple alphabetized list of programs. And the installer might add an icon to the
desktop, which can be deleted if it's rarely used. And she knows to hit the search icon and type "turbo" to find the
tax program. She also knows she can right-click a program in the menu and add it to the taskbar, desktop, or tiles menu.

All this because I didn't screw with the design of windows and I taught her the basic, very basic concepts. I leave
running the programs Word, Quicken, Browser etc to her.

Education IMHO. And users do not need to know where the program.exe is.

What you seem to do is make it harder for the user to find a program, trying to decide what pigeon hole they put the
program in. I know a lot of times I've classified a program as one thing only to reclassify it as another, so which
one did I put it in? Hmmmm?
--
Al

Big Al wrote:

> To me, this is more a matter of education.

Hi Big Al,

This is a philosophical discussion, which I summarize succinctly as:
"You can pay me now... or you can pay me later"
To which it means, in PC terms of thinking where things will end up:
"You can thing about it now... or you can think about it later"

Where, perhaps I go to greater lengths than most people, as exemplified
by this simple setup diagram for how I set up mirroring Android on Win10.
<https://i.postimg.cc/tTmdgKTB/scrcpy02.jpg> An efficient program setup

It's an example of "thinking ahead of time" where all the work is in the
preparation because after it's set up once, it lasts that way for decades.
<https://i.postimg.cc/Vvrq0K0m/scrcpy03.jpg> The efficient setup explained

It even moves exactly to any other PC on the planet, that I've set up, of
course, which is why my Windows XP menus work out of the box on Win10.
<https://i.postimg.cc/Y00vx4yp/scrcpy04.jpg> Extraneous cmd window (&)

Once all the up-front thinking is done, it's as simple as drag and drop.
<https://i.postimg.cc/wvsbcNBz/scrcpy05.jpg> Drag APK from Windows

Given that's _my_ philosophy, I appreciate that you provided your
philosophy, which took into account many of the things I did, but which
also provided an alternative view of how people wish to organize things.

Hence, I thank you for adding value to the philosophical topic because it's
the bane of millions of PC users that they can't find their programs,
mainly because they let the programs decide where to put stuff.

An example is how do you organize all your browsers for heaven's sake!
<https://i.postimg.cc/fT2J40RD/windows-cascade-menu.jpg>

Maybe that's overkill, but isn't it at least better than searching
for Brave under "B" and "Aloha" under "A" and firefox under "M"?

Think of the problem being you're moving all your stuff from one home to
another, and you let the movers determine where everything goes.

How the heck are you going to find anything when the movers decided, not
you, where each and ever application will go on your computer system?

Worse, you used movers from a hundred different companies, so the Adobe
mover wants to put "his stuff" in your living room - so it's in your face.

That's fine, but the Google movers wants to put "their stuff" in your face
too, which means it goes into the living room (aka Desktop) also.

Hell, the Mozilla mover wants "his stuff" to be tops in the menu, and he
triples the number of shortcuts, just to make sure it's "in your face".

Who would do that?

Only on computers do people let many (many!) others organize their stuff.

> My wife is no computer genius, she leans on me for a lot of things.

Lucky you. If I organize my wife's phone, she says she can't find anything
because she's _remembered_ where everything is even as it was put there
LIFO.

Same with Windows - I could barely get her to use the cascade menu because
she likes having all her icons splattered halfway across her Desktop view.

Meanwhile, if I put a fork backward in the utensil drawer, she's livid.
(The moral of that story? Sometimes wives don't make all that much sense.)

> One
> thing she can do, is download something and know "because it's the way",
> that it's in the Downloads folder.

Yes! Yes! Arms high in the air! Lighters out! Waving wildly! Yes.
*YOU GET IT*(

You understand. Oh my! Someone who gets it! I love you!
Here's what happened, in a nutshell:
1. At the dawn of PCs, Microsoft/Google/Mozilla did things willy nilly.
2. A hundred developers and a hundred different places things went.
3. People got confused... so what did Microsoft/Google/Mozilla do?
a. They "simplified" that willynilly stuff
b. They didn't _fix_ the willynilly
c. They just gave you a single downloads folder for everything

And people, like your wife, and, let's publicly admit my flaws,
my wife also, "thinks" the "right way" to find stuff is to look
in the "downloads" folder (which itself is in a crazy location).

All the willynilly stuff is assembled into that one downloads folder.
And these people "think" that's the way it should be.

> And when it
> is installed, it's on the menu, a simple alphabetized list of programs.

You are a genius! I'm serious. Very few people show that comprehension!
They _think_ that's the way it should be!

It's really just what I said above:
1. A hundred developers working for a hundred companies using a hundred
strategies to get stuff "in your face" put them willy nilly.
2. Then, Microsoft, in its infinite wisdom, tried to 'simplify things'
3. What Microsoft created - oh my - was the "alphabetical menu"

You get it that organizing stuff alphabetically is about as dumb as
can be, particularly since "PhotoShop" is under "Adobe" for example.

In my suggested style of "functional" organization, Photoshop is under
editors and even then under image editors, and _then_ under photoshop
(unless it actually installs as "Adobe Photoshop" as there comes a point
where you just have to let the hallway closet be a mess when the door is
opened (as long as when the door is closed, it doesn't look like a mess).

> And the installer might add an icon to the
> desktop, which can be deleted if it's rarely used.

Yup. You must have seen many PCs with the desktop filled with icons.
My wife thinks that's where icons belong. On the desktop.

But woe is anyone who leaves their dirty shoes in the hallway.
Or even more woe befalls those who put forks in the place for the spoons.

Funnily enough, my wife organizes her stuff rather well.
But on a PC, she lets a hundred different developers put stuff willy nilly,
and then she let's Microsoft, in its infinite wisdom, "simplify things" for
her.

Hence, she has a desktop filled with shortcuts.
A Downloads folder that must be hundreds of items long.
And when she can't find anything, she uses that idiotic alphabetical menu
where Adobe comes before PhotoShop (for example) and neither is under
"image editors" where they rightfully (functionally) belong (IMHO).

> And she knows to hit the search icon and type "turbo" to find the
> tax program.

Oh man. I love you. You are speaking my language! You understand.
You understand that the system is, by default, so fucked up, that
a normal person has to search just to find anything.

You get it.
I didn't need to author this thread.

You already understood the problem set.
My point of view is if you have to search even once, you've already lost.

For example, turbotax is under C:\app\finance\turbotax (where it belongs).

Note: As a nod to Jeff Barnett, you determine "where it belongs" just as my
wife determined where the spoons and forks belong. As long as there is a
place for everything and everything in its place, where it belongs is up to
personal preference.

As an example, TurboTax could just as well belong here:
c:\taxes\turbotax

What only matters is when you get a brand new PC, one of the first things
you do (after removing all the spyware) is set it up with an app hierarchy.
c:\app\{archivers,browsers,calendars,databases,editors,finance,etc.}

NOTE: I use shorter names, and I never use plurals unless I must
(e.g., newsreaders can't be abbreviated as new so I use news).

> She also knows she can right-click a program in the menu and
> add it to the taskbar, desktop, or tiles menu.

Again, this is a classic example of what really happened to PCs.
1. A hundred developers did things a hundred ways
2. People, necessarily, were confused as all hell
3. Microsoft, in its infinite wisdom, "simplified" things for them

The problem with the Microsoft tiled menus is that it's an abomination
to manage, and unless you've truly tried to manage it (as Paul and I
have valiantly tried years ago when it first came out), you won't know
how much of an atrocity it is (in terms of hidden binary gotchas).

Luckily that alphabetical menu is far easier to manage, as it's just
an alphabetical hierarchy - but - and this is important - it's constantly
crapped upon by every program that ever installed on your system.

An example is you might put the Adobe Acrobat Reader in the menu under
menu > editors > pdf > acroread
And that works for a few weeks or months but suddenly you get this
brand new bright red Adobe Acrobat Reader shortcut on your desktop
and your menus now have an added component you didn't ever want of
menu > Adobe > Adobe Acrobat Reader
And if you're lucky, it won't come with a few more links just to
ensure that they're "in your face" enough.

My point is that I am forced to ditch the tiled menu (mine is empty)
because it's an abomination to manage with its binary file system.

On 4/6/23 13:41, this is what Andy Burnelli wrote:
>
> An example is how do you organize all your browsers for heaven's sake!
> <https://i.postimg.cc/fT2J40RD/windows-cascade-menu.jpg>

Way too many browsers. LOL Nice list though. If you really wanted to test a web site on a lot of platforms, that
would be helpful. I had issues like 20 years ago when no two browsers seemed to render a my web page right. Now they
all seem to be pretty good.

Thanks for you ideas.
--
Al

Big Al wrote:

> Way too many browsers.

Well, I have a philosophy, based on privacy concerns, where I don't use any
plugins or extensions (with that many browsers, it would be prohibitive
anyway, but that's not the reason for not using extensions).

What I do is I use _one_ browser per web site activity.
<https://i.postimg.cc/hjjVXkq5/taskbarmenu07.jpg> One web browser per task

For example, for "googling", it's _one_ browser.
For buying stuff on Amazon, it's a _different_ one browser.
For logging into a web forum, it's a different _one_ browser.

And so on.

Each browser only needs to be set up optimally for a _single_ task.
For example, javascript can be turned off and if needed, then it's
turned on for that _one_ web site used with that _one_ browser.

Obviously it takes more up-front thinking to implement the
one-browser-per-task philosophy - but as I had mentioned.

You can pay me now... or you can pay me later.

I usually opt for the up-front organization.
Rather than the back-end scramble.

> LOL Nice list though.

Notice I had to numerically label each browser shortcut.
<https://i.postimg.cc/fT2J40RD/windows-cascade-menu.jpg> Windows browsers

That was my point to Jeff Barnett that you don't have full freedom
of choice. In the case of pinned taskbar cascade pull out accordion
menus, you're stuck with alphabetical no matter how you order them.

SO I added numbers in terms of tasks, where task 1 === browser 1,
task 2 === browser 2, task 3 === browser 3, and so on.

It's all well thought out - but most people just throw everything
into the living room and then they organize it from that big mess.

> If you really wanted to test a web site on a lot of platforms, that
> would be helpful. I had issues like 20 years ago when no two browsers
> seemed to render a my web page right. Now they
> all seem to be pretty good.

I agree with you that most browsers seem pretty good.
I think that's more due to "standardization" on Chromium & Mozilla though.
And, I guess, on WebKit although that's highly insecure, for iOS/macOS.

Me? I care about privacy.
So you won't see "Chrome" on my systems.

On Android, for example, my web browsers are "ungoogled" as much as
possible, which, for example, means these three "chromium" variants.

Even on Android, you plan ahead.
You can pay me now. Or you can pay me later.

For example, the first thing you do on unrooted Android is delete
the Google browsers, which anyone can do with adb or with ladb.
C:\> adb shell pm list packages | findstr /i com.google.android
C:\> adb shell pm uninstall --user 0 com.google.android.chrome
C:\> adb shell pm uninstall --user 0 com.google.android.youtube
C:\> adb shell pm uninstall --user 0 com.google.android.gm
C:\> adb shell pm uninstall --user 0 com.google.android.apps.maps
C:\> adb shell pm uninstall --user 0 com.android.vending
C:\> adb shell pm list packages | findstr /i com.google.android

Now that Google is gone from those apps, you install FOSS replacements.
1. A far better YouTube FOSS replacement is *NewPipe* by Schabi
<https://newpipe.net/>
2. Chrome replacements are *Bromite*, *Chromium* or *Ungoogled Chromium*
<https://github.com/bromite/bromite/releases>
<https://www.bromite.org/chromium>
<https://github.com/ungoogled-software/ungoogled-chromium-android>
3. A Google Maps offline FOSS adjunct might be OSMAnd+ (aka OSMAND~)
<https://f-droid.org/en/packages/net.osmand.plus/>
4. A GMail FOSS MUA replacement might be FairEmail or Mozilla K-9 Mail
<https://email.faircode.eu/>
<https://k9mail.app/>
5. A far better Google Play Store FOSS replacement client is Aurora
<https://auroraoss.com/>
etc.

It's all well thought out, and, the beauty is it works on all Android
phones so the menus from my Motorola work perfectly on my Galaxy.

Of course, I choose an app launcher (Nova free) which allows you to
export the homescreen and to import it back onto any phone.

This is important in terms of economy because you can keep the same
menu system for a decade on Android, where if you make minor tweaks
(or major tweaks for that matter), you leverage them to the next phone.

Same with the WindowsXP menu which I've moved to Windows 7 and then
to Vista and to Windows 8 and then to Windows 10. Same menu.

It's all designed to do some upfront work (you can pay me now) so that
you don't have to waste time finding things on any device even ten years
from now.

The main question is whether there is any app you love & use that can't fit
into a dozen folders, organized by whatever functionality you use on
Windows.

Everyone uses browsers (like Firefox, for example), and telecom programs
(like Zoom) and financial programs (like turbotax for example), so I don't
think many of us are all that unique in terms of WHAT WE DO on computers.

If Microsoft had hired me back when they were organizing Windows XP (when I
authored articles on this subject in the local press), Windows would be
completely different today (in my humble prediction of the future).

I would have made Windows so that no program is allowed to mess with the
structure and I would have provided a structure that the user decides on.

Sigh. Their loss. And yours. :) (just kidding you)
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information
which, in this case, is to faithfully try to help the original poster.

On 05/04/2023 20:49, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Is there any app you love & use that doesn't fit into this hierarchy?
> <https://i.postimg.cc/yY74z87s/taskbarmenu06.jpg> My standard hierarchy
>  archiver
>  browser
>  cleaner
>  database
>  editor
>  finance
>  game
>  hardware
>  network
>  os
>  telecom
>
> My {programs,installers,menu} folders have been the same for decades.
> Ever since Windows 95 & XP days, I've used those dozen folders alone.
>
> They are so exactly the same, a menu folder copied from XP works on
> Win10. Literally. I'm not joking. Copy the start menu from XP & it works
> on Win10.
>
> Certainly a menu works from Windows 7 to Windows 10 if you're organized.
> And, of course, any Win10 menu works out of the box in another Win10.(*1)
>
> Everything I have installed fits into one of those dozen folders.
> Organized by what they do (not by their silly marketing branding).
>
> Obviously there are sub folders, so, for example, my Irfanview is:
> Software: c:\software\editor\pic\irfanview\{whatever files are needed}
> Menu: c:\menu\editor\pic\irfanview.lnk
> Programs: c:\app\editor\pic\irfanview\{whatever files it installed}
>
> My question?
>
> Is there any app you love & use that doesn't fit into this hierarchy?
> <https://i.postimg.cc/D0J1tgDZ/windows-tweak.jpg> A standard hierarchy

Your system is pointless and confusing unless you have so many apps in
each category that you cannot remember them. My simple system is to
separate apps which require installation (into the standard Windows C:
drive locations) and those that don't (into their own folders in
C:\Programs).

Far more useful to devise a logical structure in which to store data, ie
the files produced and edited by the apps.

MikeS wrote:

> Your system is pointless and confusing unless you have so many apps in
> each category that you cannot remember them.

Hi MikeS,

It's wonderful that you provided input as we all benefit from interaction.

Thanks for your assessment, where I'm not sure of a "number" at which any
one function becomes "so many apps" but you already saw the browser number.
<https://i.postimg.cc/26F7CZ7V/microsoft-browsers02.jpg> Shortcuts gotcha!

Is that number of browsers at the point you would consider "too many" yet?

How about the number of editors I often use just for editing my images?
<https://i.postimg.cc/HLfTjC63/picture-editors.jpg> c:\app\editor\pic\.

That's not even the exif editors... nor the 3D editors, by the way.
Nor the myriad audio nor video editors.
Just the non-raster non-vector image editors.
The vector editors and raster editors are kept in another folder.

Given there are, oh, about two dozen image editors alone, we need to assess
whether or not an organizational system would be beneficial to the user.

At what point does it become "pointless and confusing" to try to organize
your system so that _everything_ has a place & everything is in its place?

> My simple system is to
> separate apps which require installation (into the standard Windows C:
> drive locations) and those that don't (into their own folders in
> C:\Programs).

The problem I have with _any_ Microsoft default folder (that other
companies' lazy developers know about such as Adobe, Mozilla, Microsoft,
etc., is that *they pollute the crap out of those folders over time*.

Hence, my rule is *_never_ use any folder Microsoft provides by default*.
In a cleverly paradoxical way, that's one of the best decisions of my life.

> Far more useful to devise a logical structure in which to store data, ie
> the files produced and edited by the apps.

Thank you for that astute observation that DATA is the bane of most
computer organizational systems. Trust me, I'm well aware of that too!

Here for example is just _one_ subfolder of my c:\data\sys hierarchy:
<https://i.postimg.cc/tCcKJsmx/c-data-sys.jpg> System Data c:\data\sys

In summary, whatever organizational system you use, you can pay for it now,
or you can pay for it later, but if you have to search even once, you lost.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information
which, in this case, is to faithfully respond to MikeS' astute points.

Andy Burnelli <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in
news:u0kjbf$6das$1@paganini.bofh.team:

<TOP-POSTED for brevity>

I've looked over your screenshots, and sure, when you've installed that many
redundant apps, it's probably a must for you. I mean...I saw like 5 or 6 differnt VPN
icons. A sh*t load of browsers installed, etc. That's the most obvious reason you need
to setup this system of yours.

Very few people NEED 6 or 7 different browsers. How many different "archivers" do
you need? I mean, I get away using 7-ZIP. The only thing *I've* run across it doesn't
support in my everyday usage, are ACE files.

One thing I always recommed to people, is that when you install something, NEVER
just click on 'Default Install', and ALWAYS go to custom install. There may not be a lot
of options, but one thing that almost always changeable, is default install path and start
menu hierarchy. I recommend to simply remove the publishers name from the path or
start menu hierarchy. We don't open programs by remembering the publishers name,
then the s/w title. I don't want to start Dassault Systems, Solidworks. I want to start
Solidworks.

Also, I've stopped storing install packages of s/w I've downloaded.You can almost
always just d/l the next (or many times updated) version. Why do I need this ISO of
Kubuntu 19.04? Some exceptions, like an icon editor named IcoFX. I've saved a certain
version of that, because initially it was a free, as in free beer, program, but at some
point, went to a pay model.

And not that I think Windows UAC is awesome, and will 100% protect you from
anything you may encounter, but I don't *think* it functions on non 'Program Files'
install paths. I'd reckon any apps installed elsewhere could be compromised, and UAC
wouldn't even know.

I too, used to have a directory and start menu structure I always followed. It just
became to bothersome to follow it.

YMMV

DanS

> Is there any app you love & use that doesn't fit into this
> hierarchy?
> <https://i.postimg.cc/yY74z87s/taskbarmenu06.jpg> My
> standard hierarchy
> archiver
> browser
> cleaner
> database
> editor
> finance
> game
> hardware
> network
> os
> telecom
>
> My {programs,installers,menu} folders have been the same
> for decades. Ever since Windows 95 & XP days, I've used
> those dozen folders alone.
>
> They are so exactly the same, a menu folder copied from XP
> works on Win10. Literally. I'm not joking. Copy the start
> menu from XP & it works on Win10.
>
> Certainly a menu works from Windows 7 to Windows 10 if
> you're organized. And, of course, any Win10 menu works out
> of the box in another Win10.(*1)
>
> Everything I have installed fits into one of those dozen
> folders. Organized by what they do (not by their silly
> marketing branding).
>
> Obviously there are sub folders, so, for example, my
> Irfanview is:
> Software: c:\software\editor\pic\irfanview\{whatever files
> are needed} Menu: c:\menu\editor\pic\irfanview.lnk
> Programs: c:\app\editor\pic\irfanview\{whatever files it
> installed}
>
> My question?
>
> Is there any app you love & use that doesn't fit into this
> hierarchy?
> <https://i.postimg.cc/D0J1tgDZ/windows-tweak.jpg> A
> standard hierarchy

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